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Old Sep 03, 2012, 04:55 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Snoopy66 View Post
I respectfully disagree as well. I see not harm to show great admiration for an artist - whoever it may be - and this not only for his work, but also for his personality and the influence he had during his lifetime.

And in all modesty, I think that John Lennon still represents a little bit more to many people than "just a guy who had talent for making music".

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Yep. One of his activism that doesn't get the attention is how he pushed the forefront on full frontal male nudity multiple times.
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Old Sep 03, 2012, 05:11 AM   #22
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Question Huh ?

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Yep. One of his activism that doesn't get the attention is how he pushed the forefront on full frontal male nudity multiple times.
Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean ?

What does full frontal nudity (and why multiple ) has to do with the popularity of John ? If you mean "Two virgins", you really think that he doesn't get the attention with that cover ?? Hmmm...

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Old Jun 01, 2013, 12:26 PM   #23
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Many, if not most, of those points have a ring of truth. The rest of the band and producer George Martin did bring out the best of John, and the same was true of all the other Beatles as well. As a group, the Beatles were always far more than the sum of the individual performers. Here and there, from the years since they broke up, I like a few songs and maybe an album here and there, but to be honest none of the four, individually, could hold my interest as a music fan anywhere near to the extent that they had playing together as the Beatles.

That John had a legion of character flaws is fairly well documented; whether and to what extent he was committed to changing that is probably a secret he took to his grave, but that is the true test, IMHO. Notwithstanding that, for me it doesn't change my perception of the Beatles' music. I'd probably cross the street to avoid Jim Morrison, too, but I love his lyrics and the Doors' music at least as much as the Beatles'.
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Old Jun 01, 2013, 06:25 PM   #24
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I'd probably cross the street to avoid Jim Morrison, too,
I know you're speaking metaphorically, but I just have trouble understanding this POV. John was not that unpleasant a person. If you kept him away from a bottle and weren't provoking him, I'd bet you would have found him gracious and charming (at best) or quiet and moody (at worst).
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Old Jun 02, 2013, 12:30 PM   #25
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I agree with Maia. I've made a resolution to try and give very little f***s where criticism of John is concerned anymore. It honestly just baffles me and I used to get so upset. But now I am going to try my very best to let it go.

John gave the world so much beauty and tried to spread a positive message and put himself out there as an example of someone who was absolutely not perfect but really tried to do the right thing. Did he get it wrong sometimes? Sure. Plenty of times and who hasn't.

But it did used to get to me when on ONTD you'd read these idiots say things like, "That wife-beater" or call him "overrated." Firstly because he wasn't a wife-beater and also, excuse me, but just try to create even 1/3rd of what he did by age 30...to call him overrated. It's ridiculous and that is the stuff that got to me.

Picking him apart when he never wanted to be thought of as perfect and always tried to give the most realistic version of himself to the world. Yes, and he even called himself out. So I'm not going to bother with itemized lists of John's flaws and imperfections and what he wasn't and what he could have been.

What I would like to tell these critics is: recognize the great things John did and what he DID bring and cherish those things. And if you can't you can sit your a$$*$ down and listen to something else.
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Old Jun 05, 2013, 12:58 AM   #26
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So there! (Good for you Scruffie! )

No, but I agree with Scruffie and Maia. John was human with flaws as every imperfect human since Adam. He had an outstanding creative gift but at no time did he ever suggest it made him perfect or better than anyone else. The one flawless may he cast the first stone!
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Old Aug 03, 2013, 02:09 PM   #27
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Read it. Fume. then discuss.
http://listverse.com/2012/05/12/top-...t-john-lennon/

To be honest, except for the one about Julian, I can counter most of these and will do so.
It is just unsubstantiated opinionated drivel.
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Old Sep 22, 2013, 11:08 AM   #28
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John had huge flaws, but he also stood for a lot of good, and for my money is the greatest rock vocalist who ever lived.....As fans were not celebrating the flaws and there still a lot to celebrate....
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Old Nov 16, 2013, 07:42 PM   #29
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John had huge flaws, but he also stood for a lot of good, and for my money is the greatest rock vocalist who ever lived.....As fans were not celebrating the flaws and there still a lot to celebrate....
Very well said, BDC! I think it's important to look at John as a human being and not pick him apart for all the "bad" things he did or said. He had the advantage and disadvantage of having every word and action observed and analyzed by millions. Not to mention, John's deeds are frozen in time. People love to rewind and play over any mistake he did because they feel he is held too high. The problem is he really isn't. Most John fans I meet are fully aware that he was complex and know all about his good and bad sides. We just know that the good far outweighs the bad. So it's not an issue. Some agree with him on many points, others don't. But you have to respect that he strived so hard to be a better person. There are too many people who could care less.

I love to celebrate everything about John. His songs are every personal for me. So when I'm angry or upset, I can relate to his songs that touch on that. If I'm feeling romantic, there is so much to choose from. And so on and so forth. I think Drew Barrymore said it right when she reflected that there is a John Lennon song for every emotion. When someone has given to the world that much, why bother picking him apart and judging his actions so harshly? Just be grateful we had him!
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Old Nov 17, 2013, 04:33 AM   #30
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Thumbs up That's the point

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He had the advantage and disadvantage of having every word and action observed and analyzed by millions. Not to mention, John's deeds are frozen in time. People love to rewind and play over any mistake he did because they feel he is held too high. The problem is he really isn't. Most John fans I meet are fully aware that he was complex and know all about his good and bad sides.

When someone has given to the world that much, why bother picking him apart and judging his actions so harshly? Just be grateful we had him!
You couldn't write it better, Scruffie ! On one hand it makes one tired to have to repeat and explain it over again, on the other hand it's important to "get" it right just in a few sentences, like you did.

And it's true that John isn't held too high by people and fans who knows him or care to know more about him than just listening to "Imagine".

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Old Jan 21, 2017, 09:24 PM   #31
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As The All Music Guide says in their excellent Beatles biography "That it's difficult to summarize their career without restating cliches that have already been digested by tens of millions of rock fans, to start with the obvious,they were the greatest and most influential act of the rock era and introduced more innovations into popular music than any other rock band of the 20th century."




"Moreover they were among the few artists of *any* discipline that were simultaneously the best at what they did *and* the most popular at what they did." They also say as singers John Lennon and Paul McCartney were among the best and most expressive in rock.




Also on an excellent site,The Evolution of Rock Bass Playing McCartney Style by Dennnis Alstrand,Stanley Clarke,Sting,Will Lee,Billy Sheehan,George Martin and John Lennon are quoted saying what a great,melodic and influential bass player Paul has always been.




http://www.alstrand.com/evolution/evolution.html



And Wilco's John Stirratt was asked in Bass Player which bass players have had the most impact on his playing and the first thing he said was, Paul McCartney is one of the greatest bass players of all time,if you listen to what he was tracking live in the studio it's unbelievable." "With his tone and musicality he was a huge influence,he covered all of his harmonic responsibilities really well but his baselines were absolutely melodic and inventive."



http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/ar...ys-roots-wilco




In this 2010 interview the blogger says that John Stirratt has an affinity for good melodies so it's not surprising that Paul McCartney is one of his musical icons and then he quotes him saying that he's always absolutely in awe of his playing,including Paul's Beatles years.
http://audreeanne.blogspot.com/2010/...ratt-talk.html




And in an online 1977 Eric Clapton interview,Eric Clapton In His Own Words he says that there was always this game between John and George,and he said partly because John was a pretty good guitar player himself


http://www.superseventies.com/ssericclapton.html .



He played live with John as a member of John's 1969 Plastic Ono Band.



And there is a great online article by musician and song writer Peter Cross,The Beatles Are The Most Creative Band Of All Time and he says that many musicians besides him recognize Paul as one of the best bass guitar players ever.He too says that John and Paul are the greatest song composers and that to say that John and Paul are among 2 of the greatest singers in rock and roll is to state the obvious,and that John,Paul and George were all excellent guitarists and that George is underrated by people not educated about music but that Eric Clapton knew better,he also says that both John and Paul played great leads as well as innovative rhythm tracks.




John Lennon co-wrote,sang and played guitar on one of David Bowie's first hits Fame in 1975 and David invited John to play guitar on his version of John's beautiful Beatles song Across The Universe.Brain May,Ozzy Osbourne,and Liam Gallagher and many more call The Beatles The Greatest Band Ever.'



http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Beatle...Time&id=222245




Also on MusicRadar Tom Petty,Joe Perry and Richie Sambora in What The Beatles Mean To Me all say how cool and great they thought The Beatles were when they first saw them on The Ed Sullivan Show in February 1964 when they were just teen boys,Richie was only 5.Tom Petty said he thought they were really really great.



Robin Zander of Cheap Trick said he's probably one of the biggest Beatles fans on the planet.Brad Whitford of Aerosmith said that a lot of that Beatles influence comes from Steven Tyler's collaborartion with Mark Hudson both whom are absolute Beatles freaks and he said I guess the goal is to try and emulate probably some of the best music of the last 50 years which has to be The Beatles.
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Old Jan 21, 2017, 09:25 PM   #32
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In this 2002 interview with Johnís May Pang who was his girl friend during his separation from Yoko she was asked as the last question,what would she most like the world to know about John,and she said the fact that he was a kind sensitive man who was insecure in his personal life.The interviewer also says how John's guitar playing has always been underrated and May talks about this too.


http://articles.absoluteelsewhere.ne..._pang_int.html
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Old Jan 21, 2017, 09:27 PM   #33
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I didn't mean to get a double post,I don't see a delete option on here.

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Old Jan 21, 2017, 09:28 PM   #34
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John Lennon is a great example of people can change and are not fixed to be a certain way as a man or a woman.Yoko changed John into a much better person as a pro-feminist man and the feminist changes *are* for the better, and many pro-feminist men have recognized this too! They say it has freed them and allowed them to develop and express more of all of the shared common *human* traits,emotions,behaviors,abilities and reduce and prevent male violence against women and children etc. Definitions of "masculine" and "feminine" differ across time periods, and in different societies.




John Lennon is a great example of how feminism changing limited artificial gender definitions and roles,changed him for the much better. John as a child and teenager had a lot of traumas that permanently psychologically damaged him,but because of his and Yoko's beautiful loving relationship,and as he said she was a feminist before he met her,(and he said that because she was a feminist before he met her,they were going to have to have a 50/50 equal relationship which he never had before) he went in to primal scream therapy and Yoko went with him and he dealt with all of his pain and anger for the very first time at age 29.





When John was a young guy,he was often drunk getting into fist fights with men,hitting women,and womanizing including cheating on his girlfriends and then his first wife Cynthia.Of course Paul,George and Ringo did the same with all of the groupies all 4 of them had while touring from 1963-1966. I hadn't watched these Mike Douglas shows in years until December 2010 when it was the 30th anniversary of John's tragic crazy murder.






Out of the 5 Mike Douglas shows that John and Yoko co-hosted for a week that was taped in January 1972 and aired in February,a young criminal lawyer Rena Uviller(she went on to become a Supreme Court Judge) who worked with juveniles was on, and she,Mike Douglas,John and Yoko were discussing the then very recent women's liberation movement. George Carlin was on too.





Rena said,she agrees with Yoko,that the idea of Women's lib is to liberate all of us,and she said ,I mean we could talk hours on the way men really suffer under the sex role definitions.Yoko agreed with what she said too. Rena said that men don't really realize they have only to gain from Women's Lib,and that she thinks that maybe with a little more propaganda we can convince them.





John then said,yeah there is a lot to gain from it,just the fact that you can relax and not have to play that male role,he said we can do that,and he said that I can be weak,( but notice how then in a male dominated gender divided,gender stereotyped,sexist society,and even unfortunately still now in a lot of ways,the "female" role was defined as the weak one,and the male role as the strong one) I don't have to protect her all the time and play you know that super hero,I don't have to play that,she allows me to be weak sometimes and for me to cry,and for her to be the strong one,and for me to be the weak one. John then said,and it really is a great relief,after 28 years of trying to be tough,you know trying to show them,I don't give a da*n and I'm this and I'm that,to be able to relax.and just be able to say,OK I'm no tough guy forget it.





Rena then said,I think in some funny way,I think girls even as children,have a greater lattitude because a little girl can be sort of frilly and feminine or she can be a tomboy and it's acceptable,but a little boy if he's not tossing that football,there's a lot of pressure on him.John said,there's a lot of pressure,not to show emotion,and he said that there was a lot of pressure on me not to be an artist,to be a chemist and he said he discussed this on another Mike Douglas episode.





Rena said that unfortunately some of the leaders in the Women's Liberation movement fall victim to being spokesmen,for Women's Lib, and yet at least in public personality they seem to really have a certain amount of contempt for the hair curled housewife and there is a kind of sneering contempt,and she said I think it's a measure of their own lack of liberation.And Yoko said it's snobbery,and Rena said yeah,they really don't like other women,but I'm sympathetic,and Mike Douglas then said a sexist woman-hating statement,saying,well women don't like other women period.Rena said,no see that's very unliberated and Yoko said, in response to what Mike Douglas said,that's not true,that's not true.And John said,you see they are brought up to compete with men.





Yoko said that even though in Japan they say they don't have much of a woman problem and women already had some liberation,there is still a long way to go that she really agrees with Rena that so many female liberation movement people basically hate women,and we have to first start to understand women and love them whether they are housewives or not,and she said that snobbery is very bad and we have to somehow find out a way to co-existing with men,and she asked Rena don't you think so and she said most definitely. George Carlin said,that actually many successful women are acting out male roles just like a lot of blacks think they escaped are acting out white roles.John also said that he thinks that women have to try twice as hard as to make it as men,and he said you know they have to be on their toes much more than a man.





On another Mike Douglas episode from the same week,former actress and acclaimed film maker Barbara Loden was on and Yoko had requested her as a guest.John asked her ,Did you have any problems working with the men,you know like giving them instructions and things like that and Barbara said,I did, but I think it was because I was afraid that they would not accept what I said,and I wasn't quite that authoritative in my own self.John said it's certainly a brave thing to do,and Yoko said it is.





Mike Douglas asked Yoko if John's attitude had changed much towards her since The Female Liberation Movement,and at first Yoko says John's attitude from the beginning was the same,and that they met on that level.John then says,twice, I was a male chauvinist and Yoko says,yes he was a male chauvinist but,and then John says,Can I say how you taught me,and Yoko says yes.John says,How I did it in my head was,would I ask Paul or George,or would I treat them the way I would treat a woman? John then said,it's a very simple thing maybe it's fetch that or do that ,and I started thinking if I said that to them,they'd say come on get it yourself,and if you put your wife or your girl friend in the position of your best friend,and say now would I say that to him,then you know when you're treading on some delicate feelings.





Mike Douglas said years later that after this week of John and Yoko co-hosting his show,many young people who had never watched his show before,(and his main audience was middle America and people older than their 20's and even mostly their 30's) told him they loved the show,and that it was great and his ratings went up high for those shows.Even if John didn't always live up to his feminist ideals and beliefs in his personal life,(although he did with Yoko because of her and this why and how he emotionally evolved into a caring,nurturing,house husband and father to Yoko and Sean),just the fact that he spoke out as a man in support of the feminist movement on a popular TV show back in early 1972 when most of the sexist male dominated woman-hating society looked down at it and considered it crazy which in some ways it's still unfortunately wrongly misunderstood(and it's really the male dominated,sexist,woman-hating society that has always been so wrong and crazy!),and the fact that John was (and still is) greatly admired and influential to many young people male and female,he did *a lot* to legitimize it and show it was rational,reasonable,needed and right!





A few months later he was performing Woman Is The Ni**er Of The World on The Dick Cavett Show and then months after that live in Madison Square Garden.In his very last radio interview done by Dave Sholin etc from RKO Radio just hours before he was tragically shot and killed, John said I'm more feminist now than I was when I sang Woman Is The N**ger,I was intellectually feminist then but now I feel as though at least I've put not my own money,but my body where my mouth is and I'm living up to my own preachings as it were.




He also said what is this BS men are this way, women are that way,we're all human.He had also said that he comes from the macho school of pretense of course *all* men really are they are just too conditioned all of their lives to realize and admit it.And he said that men are trained to be like they are in the army,and that it's more like that in England but he knows it's this way over here too,he said that they are taught as boys and men don't react,don't feel,don't cry,and he said he thinks that's what screwed us all up and that he thinks it's time for a change.




Barbara Graystark of Newsweek interviewed John September 1980 and part of what she said to John is,You've come a long way from the man who wrote at 23,''Women should be obscene rather than heard.'' And she asks John how did this happen? And John said that he was a working-class macho guy who was used to being served and Yoko didn't buy that. John then said that from the day he met Yoko,she demanded equal time,equal space,equal rights. He said that he said to Yoko then,don't expect him to change in any way and don't impinge on his space. John said that Yoko said to him then she can't be here because there's no space where you are everything revolves around him and that she can't breath in that atmosphere. John then says in this interview that he's thankful to her for ( meaning feminist) the education.




http://www.beatlesinterviews.org/db1...9.beatles.html
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Old Jan 21, 2017, 09:29 PM   #35
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Mike Douglas also said to John and Yoko, You're both so different, you had such different childhoods. John said, it's incredible isn't it? Yoko said, Yes! Mike asked, What do you think has attracted you to each other? Yoko said, We're very similar. John then said, She came from a Japanese upper-middle class family. Her parents were bankers and all that jazz,very straight. He said they were trying to get her off with an ambassador when she was 18.You know, now is the time you marry the ambassador and we get all settled. I come from a an upper-working class family in Liverpool, the other end of the world. John then said, we met but our minds are so similar,our ideas are so similar. It was incredible that we could be so alike from different environments, and I don't know what it is, but we're very similar in our heads. And we look alike too!




Mike also asked John about his painful childhood,and how his father left him when he was 5,and John said how he only came back into his life when he was successful and famous(20 years later!),and John said he knew that I was living all those years in the same house with my auntie,but he never visited him.He said when he came back into his life all those years later,he looked after his father for the same amount of time he looked after him,about 4 years.





He also talked about how his beloved mother Julia,who encouraged his music by teaching him to play the banjo,got hit and killed by a car driven by an off duty drunk cop when John was only 17 and just getting to have a relationship with her after she had given him away to be raised by her older sister Mimi when he was 5.





And John also said,And in spite of all that,I still don't have a hate-the-pigs attitude or hate-cops attitude.He then said, I think everybody's human you know,but it was very hard for me at that time,and I really had a chip on my shoulder,and it still comes out now and then,because it's a strange life to lead .He then said,But in general ah,I've got my own family now ...I got Yoko and she made up for all that pain.






John's psychologist Dr. Arthur Janov told Mojo Magazine in 2000( parts of this interview is on a great UK John Lennon fan site,You Are The Plastic Ono Band) that John had as much pain as he had ever seen in his life,and he was a psychologist for at least 18 years when John and Yoko saw him in 1970! He said John was a very dedicated patient. He also said that John left therapy too early though and that they opened him up,but didn't get a chance to put him back together again and Dr. Janov told John he need to finish the therapy,he said because of the immigration services and he thought Nixon was after him,he said we have to get out of the country.John asked if he could send a therapist to Mexico with him,and Dr. Janov told him we can't do that because they had too many patients to take care of,and he said they cut the therapy off just as it started really,and we were just getting going.




http://urthepob.byethost24.com/pob/p...ml?ckattempt=1




Also this great article by long time anti-sexist,anti-men's violence,anti-pornography former all star high school football player and author of the great,important 2006 book,The Macho Paradox:How Some Men Hurt Women and How All Men Can Help, Jackson Katz.John Lennon on Fatherhood,Feminism,and Phony Tough Guy Posturing

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jackso..._b_800333.html




Also Cynthia Lennon is quoted in the great John Lennon biography Lennon,by award winning music journalist and former editor of The Melody Maker Magazine and good friend of John's for 18 years,Ray Coleman as saying somethings like she knew as soon as she saw John and Yoko together she knew that she lost him,and that it was a meeting of the minds and that she knew that they were right for each other.She also said that she told John before he started his relationship with Yoko that she sees and incredible similarity between him and Yoko and said to him that there is something about her that is just like you.She told him that he may say that she's this crazy avant garde artist and that he's not interested in her,but that she can see more into John's future with Yoko then he can.
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Old Jan 21, 2017, 09:30 PM   #36
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In this January 1971 interview with Red Mole John says that Yoko was well into liberation before he met her and that she had to fight her way through a man's world and he said the art world is completely dominated by men and said so Yoko was full of revolutionary zeal when they met. Then John said there was never any question about it that they had to have a 50-50 relationship or there was no relationship and he said he was quick to learn and he said that Yoko did an article in Nova more than two years back in which she said Woman is the Ni**er of the world. A year later he co-wrote with Yoko the song Woman Is The N*gger of The World,and bravely performed it live on The Dick Cavett show and at Madison Square Garden in 1972 and the song was banned off a lot of radio stations.




John also says in this same interview that it's very subtle how you're taught male superiority.


http://www.beatlesinterviews.org/db1...1.beatles.html
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Old Jan 21, 2017, 09:31 PM   #37
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Musician and artist Klaus Voorman says that Yoko Ono made John Lennon a nicer more gentle person.



http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-37223991

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Old Jan 21, 2017, 09:33 PM   #38
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John Lennon said in his very last radio interview (just hours before he was so cruelly, insanely shot and killed by a crazy,horrible piece of sh*t who used to be a big Beatles fan since he was a teenager, and John was his favorite Beatle) that like most young men he was more involved with his career than with his children,and he said he regretted not spending enough time with Julian. He also said that he and Julian would have a relationship in the future but sadly they both were deprived of this.



And John didn't do the same horrible thing to Julian that his father did to him. John's father literally totally abandoned him and literally didn't see, or talk to John from the time he was 5,until he was a successful famous 24 year old.John did see Julian sometimes, and spoke with him on the phone and sent him post cards,birthday and Christmas cards and presents and he bought Julian a guitar when he was 11 as a Christmas present. John's father never did any of these things and John said it was like his father was dead.



Cynthia also always said that John only hit her twice *before* they were married and she also always said that she would always be in love with John and she was married 3 times after John. Yoko also has said John never hit her and I believe her.

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Old Jan 21, 2017, 09:34 PM   #39
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As The Rolling Stone Album Guide said, not liking The Beatles is as perverse as not liking the sun. And Ozzy Osbourne( he's been a huge Beatles fan he was a young teen from The Beatles early days,and he picked She Loves You as one of Rolling Stone Magazine's greatest songs of all time,and Sgt.Pepper is one of hi favorite albums) said not loving The Beatles is like not loving oxygen. And a guy who runs Keno's Classic Rock n Roll Site and who runs a Rolling Stones and John Lennon fan site says in his review of The Beatles 1967-1970 Blue Album damn The Beatles were one great group and he said in his great review of The Beatles 1962-1966 Red album, that if you don't love or at least like The Beatles and their music then you are not a true rock fan and more than likely will never ever get it.



He also says that John Lennon showed on Paul's rocker Get Back why he should have played lead guitar more often because he did such a good job of it. He also said he played a pretty good slide guitar on George's For Your Blue and he said John also played one of the first and best acid guitar parts on his great rocker Revolution.


http://www.keno.org/classic_rock/roc...s_reviews.html
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Old Jan 21, 2017, 09:35 PM   #40
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And John wrote this beautiful,brilliant song with beautiful music and John
s typical beautiful singing voice, Number 9 Dream on his very good 1974 solo album,Walls And Bridges and he produced and arranged the whole album by himself including this beautiful,brilliant song!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq2aaUp3hYc
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