Davy Jones: The Beatles were manufactured

Originally Posted by LMW28IF

The Monkees were arguably the most manufatured of all acts in the history of music when compared to eventual sucess.

I am not sure why the level of manufacture would be weighed against eventual success. For a creative purist, public receptivity would be not a factor. Only the generative product would be evaluated for listening pleasure and merit, aside from public reception.

I would argue, there is no such thing as a creative purist, and even Picasso has concured. ;) That is, aside from God. :)

The Beatles were musicians before they became the Beatles. The Monkees were not even all musicians before they became a "band" called The Monkees.

Then one could also argue the Monkees accomplished the most in a very, very short time span. They were very good by the time I saw them in the mid 80's. Amazing. I bought tickets to every single show they played in my area and went every time. They played to sold out crowds, who were up and dancing their butts off most of the shows. So, yeah I think this "band"- as you say- is a very real band. I also saw Mickey more recently, and had the BEST time. I thank God for them all. Very talented men.

Anyone giving his thoughts any creedence re: the matter of managerial influence on a band (successful or otherwise) is a fool imo.

"sometimes I play the fool" - sorry, couldn't resist

My CHILDREN could name 500 bands they know of and STILL not name the Monkees. Many people could do the same.... They are nearly forgotten by the general public at this point.

I saw news of Davy's passing within 2 mins when it was announced from TMZ, the initial release. Within 4-5 mins, he was THE top search on most search engines.

Anyway, I do realize you don't care for them, 28, and that's cool by me. But to deny them their space, I just don't abide by.

Originally Posted by LMW28IF

And Boy bands consisting of X number of vocalists, put together to SING is infinitely more of a legit act put together to make music vs two musicians and two actors.

"Infinitely more legit"? That's interesting. How so? I can't quite follow your logic here.

Originally Posted by LMW28IF

but les not kid ourselves about their genesis.

I don't think anybody is doing that.

Originally Posted by LMW28IF

My CHILDREN could name 500 bands they know of and STILL not name the Monkees. Many people could do the same.... They are nearly forgotten by the general public at this point.

Yes, but neither your children or my children are very indicative...

I could name 500 bands I know of and STILL not name the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Queen, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Nirvana...... That says nothing about the Monkees' popularity; it says that these people know a lot of bands.

Originally Posted by LMW28IF

There is nothing "offensive", merely silliness.


The Beatles were musicians before they became the Beatles. The Monkees were not even all musicians before they became a "band" called The Monkees. Anyone giving his thoughts any creedence re: the matter of managerial influence on a band (successful or otherwise) is a fool imo.

My CHILDREN could name 500 bands they know of and STILL not name the Monkees. Many people could do the same.... They are nearly forgotten by the general public at this point.

Go tell Mike Nesmith and Peter Tork they wernt musicians before The Monkees and see what they have to say clearly you know nothing about the Monkees or their music/background. Davy too was singing long before the Monkees.

What Davy was saying here is true, the Beatles appearing in scripted movies like A Hard Days Night and Help! was manufactured..as cool as they are they are almost cringe worthy on an artistic level, both John and George at least were embarrased about it.. The Monkees themselves were born out of that. Its a huge doublestandard to say The Monkees were the most manufactured thing ever when their music went on to surpass all of that, and yet say the Beatles were none of that, when they were the very impetus for the Monkees in the first place :P

As for the Monkees being 'fans' maybe they were but they went on to become peers/friends of the Beatles - John and Micky were quite close, and so were George and Peter Tork. The Monkees are HUGELY popular depsite what your kids might think, why do you think their show is still in syndication?!

The Beatles respected them even if you cant!!

Originally Posted by Rellevart

"Infinitely more legit"? That's interesting. How so? I can't quite follow your logic here.

Four vocalists, who have been singing for years, in several groups, being put together to sing in a NEW group, perhaps after continuing to work on their craft hard enough to become good enough - THEN cutting a record with four other like individuals.

vs

Two musicians and two actors being put together to make a television show. All talented guys who made it big eventually, with an enormously popular show and some music.

The point is NOT that they Monkees weren't talented... the point is, a Monkee stating the Beatles were manufactured too!!! is silly and not worth my time. I've already posted EVERY group/artist/writer/performer has management helping to make decisions - we KNOW THIS. To have a Monkee try to point it out is dripping with hilarious irony.

Everyone is jumping to conclusions that I think they are terrible, or didn't deserve what they accomplished etc. It's flying off the handle and putting words into people's mouths akin to the John vs Paul nonsense that goes on around here sometimes.

Do I own their music? No. Do I understand their place in televison history and music? Certainly. Not begrudging them any of that. But finger pointing at others saying how "they were manufactured" too tells me Jones at least partially wishes the Monkees were started as a REAL band, not a television show with non-professional musicians included. He perhaps would have liked to have a more cemented place in music history.

Nothing wrong with that, but he could accomplish it better than by saying what he said.

Originally Posted by ringo_rama

Yes, but neither your children or my children are very indicative...

I could name 500 bands I know of and STILL not name the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Queen, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Nirvana...... That says nothing about the Monkees' popularity; it says that these people know a lot of bands.

In order of popularity or personal preference? I doubt it. One could name any number of things in arbitrary order and avoid any noun they want. That's not the point. The point is - where is the Monkees current place in music history for the GENERAL public? Youth? Adults? etc.?

The answer is way down the list.

Does that mean people didn't dance at one of their concerts a few years back? Of course not, yet people are posting as such as though it's some revelation or interesting fact. Search engine results? Meh.


The songs written for them were very catchy. They performed them well. My little sister was a big Davy Jones fan. Cuteness, schoolgirl crush and all. I WATCHED the show and enjoyed it. They were what they were.

Do they rise above other television shows of the era that enjoy cult status at this point and not much else (Land of The Lost, Speed Racer, Electric Company, 3-2-1 Contact?). Yes, but not by much.

Originally Posted by Hari's Chick

I am not sure why the level of manufacture would be weighed against eventual success.

As a compliment.

Originally Posted by CWW

What Davy was saying here is true, the Beatles appearing in scripted movies like A Hard Days Night and Help! was manufactured..as cool as they are they are almost cringe worthy on an artistic level, both John and George at least were embarrased about it.. The Monkees themselves were born out of that. Its a huge doublestandard to say The Monkees were the most manufactured thing ever when their music went on to surpass all of that, and yet say the Beatles were none of that, when they were the very impetus for the Monkees in the first place

You're not reading my posts, and arguing with yourself. i've never posted the bit above in red. Not even close. In fact, I've already posted that EVERY band/act/writer/artist/actor has management and colleagues guiding them - Including the Beatles. It's simply a part of showbiz.


Here are few pieces of The Beatles "manufactured" at least in part by others

Matching suits and image without leather
Album Cover Photos
Hiding John's marriage
EVERY SINGLE APPEARANCE in between gigs, such as Miss Hong Kong, Morecambe and Wise, The Shakespeare bit, etc
When to release albums
When to release singles and which ones to release
Instrumentation and Arrangement
Replacing Ringo for the Scandinavian and Asian tour in 1964
Adopting the Mop Top haristyle
Wit at Press Conferences
Feature Length films like A Hard Days Night and Help

etc
etc
etc



The point AGAIN - is that although the Beatles were as manufactured and guided by brilliant management as any other band, what I find ridiculous is a MONKEE is pointing it out to everyone, in a feeble attempt to prop themselves up (imo), or maybe feel MORE of a piece of music history than they became (again, imo). The analogy of the religion teacher and the Saint applies again, right here ___________________.

It's posted previously. Anyone read it?


Let the further mis-interpretation begin!

Originally Posted by CWW

Go tell Mike Nesmith and Peter Tork they wernt musicians before The Monkees and see what they have to say clearly you know nothing about the Monkees or their music/background. Davy too was singing long before the Monkees.

If I am incorrect about the Monkee's musical ability before they became Monkees (which would be odd, as only Peter Tork played an instrument on their first two albums) then please correct me with something tangible. Thanks.

I'm sure I won't be speaking to Nesmith or Tork anytime soon. If you have a link or something, I WILL read it and reply honestly. Especially if I am wrong about my previous posts re: musicianship.

Cheers,
Bryan

Originally Posted by LMW28IF

Four vocalists, who have been singing for years, in several groups, being put together to sing in a NEW group, perhaps after continuing to work on their craft hard enough to become good enough - THEN cutting a record with four other like individuals.

Hunh. Ok. Well, I guess everybody has their own definition of "legit". Most of those boy bands were put together by managers, rarely wrote their own material, didn't play instruments...seems pretty much the same thing to me. I guess your distinction is that you see them as being better/more seasonsed vocalists and that makes them more "legit"?

Originally Posted by LMW28IF

But finger pointing at others saying how "they were manufactured" too tells me Jones at least partially wishes the Monkees were started as a REAL band, not a television show with non-professional musicians included.

Possibly. I imagine that the press treatment of the Monkees as a joke or merely a teenybopper phenomenon may well have led to more than one chip on a shoulder or two.

Not legitimacy musically necessarily... But more credible when it comes to sharing/accusing traditional bands of being "manufactured."

Slightly more credible.

Gotcha. Don't necessarily agree, but I see where you're coming from.

Mike also played on the first 2 LP's 28! In fact there are 2 songs on the first album which he wrote and produced( Papa Gene's Blues and Sweet Young Thing!) Plus on More of the Monkees he wrote and produced The Kind Of Girl I Could Love! Mike too was an acomplished musician as was Peter which you have duly noted!

Well if its any indication that Davy (and by extension the Monkees) still means something to people he did make the cover of People magazine this week. They decided to put him there rather than someone more current. I will admit that it did surprise me though.

Originally Posted by Lady Madonna

Well, somebody sounds bitter.


Mr. Jones is confused. The Beatles were a real band long before they became famous. All Brian did was tweak their image. The Monkees were put together after a casting call for a TV show and didn't even play instruments on their early records. Big difference.

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN! I can't even stand to look at this thread...what a bunch of crap. You said everything I was thinking. (Your post is the only one I've read. I can't look anymore, lol.)

Originally Posted by BeatleNut9

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN! I can't even stand to look at this thread...what a bunch of crap. You said everything I was thinking. (Your post is the only one I've read. I can't look anymore, lol.)

Well, I'm getting bashed. Join the party if you'd like!


Don't forget, people danced to Daydream Believer a few times if that helps.

This just in....

12,987 people sang along to Daydream Believer in Massachuttes in 1988.

Originally Posted by LMW28IF

You're not reading my posts, and arguing with yourself. i've never posted the bit above in red. Not even close. In fact, I've already posted that EVERY band/act/writer/artist/actor has management and colleagues guiding them - Including the Beatles. It's simply a part of showbiz.


Here are few pieces of The Beatles "manufactured" at least in part by others

Matching suits and image without leather
Album Cover Photos
Hiding John's marriage
EVERY SINGLE APPEARANCE in between gigs, such as Miss Hong Kong, Morecambe and Wise, The Shakespeare bit, etc
When to release albums
When to release singles and which ones to release
Instrumentation and Arrangement
Replacing Ringo for the Scandinavian and Asian tour in 1964
Adopting the Mop Top haristyle
Wit at Press Conferences
Feature Length films like A Hard Days Night and Help

etc
etc
etc



The point AGAIN - is that although the Beatles were as manufactured and guided by brilliant management as any other band, what I find ridiculous is a MONKEE is pointing it out to everyone, in a feeble attempt to prop themselves up (imo), or maybe feel MORE of a piece of music history than they became (again, imo). The analogy of the religion teacher and the Saint applies again, right here ___________________.

It's posted previously. Anyone read it?


Let the further mis-interpretation begin!

The Beatles instrumentation and arrangements were *not* ''manufactured,nor was their natural wit,or when to release albums and singles,they actually had an arrangement with their friends,The Rolling Stones so that both groups wouldn't release singles and albums at the same time,none of the other things you listed were manufactured either really,but marketed,and there is a big difference.

I agree, they messed up a good thing.

Originally Posted by instant karla

Davy Jones says that the Beatles were just as manufactured as his own band, the Monkees. Jones told delmarvanow.com that, "I think the Monkees have been viewed as a band that was manufactured, but the first manufactured band was really the Beatles. They were put by (manager) Brian Epstein in the same boots and the same suits.

And where's the little Monkee now???