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Old Sep 08, 2007, 11:18 PM   #41
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in pop culture, the threat against the youth is not the violence in media or in video games or in movies. The threat against our culture is the threat made against the sanctity of sex. Sex is at the very core of society and is at the core of human nature. Even though violence can do much harm to man, both body and soul, sex mistreated can do even more harm to man, body, soul, and in society. I use the word sex not only to refer to gender (although it is naturally greatly tied in) but in the very act, place, and holiness of sex. Sex is meant to bring man to God--the act of sex, when not abused, actually reveals some of the truth about God--but is violently dragged through the mud in our culture. Our culture rips the very act of sex of it's dignity and by doing so, rips man's very dignity from him.

John Paul II the Great has many wonderful things to say about it, and I know some of it. I love talking about it (it being called Theology of the Body) if you want to discuss it or anything else I said in that post. Had I entirely qualified all of what I said (or still have to say) in the post...it would have been too long...:-P

I also use man to mean all of humanity, as well as masculine pronouns to refer to humanity in general, just to clarify.
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Old Sep 09, 2007, 12:09 AM   #42
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If a God does exist, what evidence could you realistically expect these believers to produce as proof? Is it incumbent upon Christians to prove the existence of God to non-believers? My view is that Religion and Faith are forever locked together.

I really enjoyed everything you had to say, and as far as I can tell thus far, completely agree with you on everything but this first thing. Reason and philosophy can prove that existence of God.

Of course religion and faith are forever locked together, as they should be, but faith in what is true is forever locked with reason as well. Having faith, if it is faith in the right thing (that is faith in truth) does not contradict reason.
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Old Sep 09, 2007, 09:38 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by seasidewomen
I really enjoyed everything you had to say, and as far as I can tell thus far, completely agree with you on everything but this first thing.
There's that exclusion thing again. Really ironic.
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Reason and philosophy can prove that existence of God.
It would be really nice if you could expand on this rather fruitless and insubstantial statement. Here let me demonstrate. You cannot prove the existence of something that doesn't exist, you can only belief that it exists. It's what a foolish, lazy and subordinate person would do, that is to say look at all the outright damage and bloodshed that religion has caused on this earth. For those of you wondering what i'm saying here, or is it of value, i would suggest you examine the rather brutal history of Xtianity proper.
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in pop culture, the threat against the youth is not the violence in media or in video games or in movies.
You forgot to nail down an adequate working definition for pop culture. No matter. Once again define the terms that you appear to be throwing around and using here, or at least provide some concrete and believable examples. Otherwise a reasonable person would have to assume that your statements, though well intentioned i'm sure, actually lead nowhere.

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Old Sep 09, 2007, 02:11 PM   #44
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Well, Pepperland--you are a sweetheart. I do recall mentioning that I could qualify and expand upon everything I said, if someone was interested or disagreed or what have you. You didn't have to be angry that I didn't prove right off--there is a lot that can be said--you could simply ask.

Take, for instance, the fact that things move. I imagine that you have experienced the movement of things before. If I push a book, the book moves. When the moon is in a particular time of it's rotation, the ocean moves. However, if I do not hit the book, the book stays still. This can be found in Newton's laws of physics--a universal concept proven by science and reason--which state (among other things) that an object in motion stays in motion or an object at rest remains at rest unless acted upon by another object. This applies to every object. When an object moves, it was acted upon by another object, and that object was able to move by the force of another object. Similar, but much more complicated to a row of dominoes. To elaborate on this metaphor, a chain of dominoes can not go on forever--it must at least have a start, and the first dominoe to move must be pushed over by another object. If this initial push was done by something physical, it also had to have been acted upon by something before it...therefore, that push is not the first in a chain of events. The start in the chain of events can only be an Unmoved Mover. Something that is not physical, but that can act upon the physical world. This Unmoved Mover is god. Do not be alarmed--this is not a fib made up by the Christians in the middle of the evil dark ages between torturing people--Aristotle, 300 years before Christians, introduced to the west in the age of reason and philosophy the idea of the Unmoved Mover. This is his proof of a monotheistic God. By this proof, we see God must transcend space and time in order to start space and time (recalling that movement is not only a change in space but requires a change in time--it starts in one position and then is in another. Time is the measurement of change.)

You may say that the world started with a big bang--and that may be, but the big bang can not be it's own ammunition. Science reveals that any explosion is due to the conditions preceding it--added heat, a mix of chemicals, increased pressure and any number of other things. But for this explosion to happen, there had to be these preceding conditions. If these conditions preceded the big bang, than some kind of material universe already existed and the question becomes--from where did those physical existences (chemicals, expanding molecules etc) come? The Big Bang could have happened, but it could not have happened on it's own accord--The Big Bang could not cause The Big Bang. There must be a cause before it.

This is one proof of many other proofs. If you would like to hear the others as well, I will give one..but this post is already pretty darn long, so I will leave it at that for the time being and answer to some of your other comments.

Men, throughout history, have done evil things. This is true. Many men also have done evil things in the name of religion. A man who is Christian can do something evil in the name of Christianity, but that does not mean that Christianity is inherently evil. That would mean that the man who misused it did something evil, that is lying and saying he is Christian when he is doing something unchristian and that Christianity is a victim of his abuse. Religion is not evil and has never done evil things, or purposefully caused evil things to be done. This is because religion is not a thing, it is a concept in the minds of men, and every concept of man can be misused, taken for what it isn't, and used against the good of man. To say that religion is inherently evil, or that religion caused bloodshed is a fallacy and ignorant because man caused bloodshed in the name of religion, and it is being judgmental and exclusive to all men that are not atheists (which are the majority of man throughout history). Men also have died for others in the name of religion, have stood up for the oppressed in the name of religion, have lived lives of poverty--giving all they have to those in more need then themselves--in the name of religion. You have condemned religion in the name of men who made awful mistakes (without taking into consideration the possible repentance of those men) and thereby, condemn all men who are religious. That is being exclusive--to condemn all men but the minority who reject God. Not only a minority in this country, or this era, but a minority in all of history. Not until the middle of the 17th or 18th centuries did atheism appear on a broad level--you condemn nearly all men.

Pop culture as in the culture of today's youth, very broad. And as an example, take eating disorders and self-esteem issues in many young woman. Woman are often treated as objects for the end of pleasure in sex (not that it is not the other way around as well). And as such, are often treated as though the physical appearance of their body must be perfect for them to be able to reach their ultimate end of sex toy. Women, therefore, often resort to eating disorders, bilemia and anorexia etc. There is a small explanation of one example, with which I think most people agree.

Now, I would like to ask you to define some terms and qualifty some statements. You say that I can't prove God exists because you can't prove something exists that doesn't exist (I am sorry that I can not directly quote you on it because I don't know how to quote on here). However, you fail to prove that God doesn't exist. And if you insist he doesn't exist, there must be some kind of proof he doesn't. The statement "God doesn't exist", afterall, cannot be a proof that "God doesn't exist".

Also, you say to look at "Xtianity proper." What is Christianity proper? You throw around the term as though we all know what that means, but I certainly don't. Do you know the entire history of Christianity? I am going to school to learn it, or else I would love to share with you all of it. However, I will suggest you look up the history of Christianity shortly after it began--thousands of Christian's were burned, given to the lions, beheaded and other wise martyred for many years. Just as one example of Christian history. You did ask for examples right? I just figured I'd give you an example of something you alluded to.

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Old Sep 09, 2007, 02:56 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by seasidewomen
Take, for instance, the fact that things move. I imagine that you have experienced the movement of things before. If I push a book, the book moves. When the moon is in a particular time of it's rotation, the ocean moves. However, if I do not hit the book, the book stays still. This can be found in Newton's laws of physics--a universal concept proven by science and reason--which state (among other things) that an object in motion stays in motion or an object at rest remains at rest unless acted upon by another object. This applies to every object. When an object moves, it was acted upon by another object, and that object was able to move by the force of another object. Similar, but much more complicated to a row of dominoes. To elaborate on this metaphor, a chain of dominoes can not go on forever--it must at least have a start, and the first dominoe to move must be pushed over by another object. If this initial push was done by something physical, it also had to have been acted upon by something before it...therefore, that push is not the first in a chain of events.
The unmoved mover? Please clean this up for me, no one can be that easily deceived. Plus you are confusing, no violating and corrupting, the ideas of motion and inertia. You can't be serious. What you are describing is nothing more than a souped up fairy tale. You don't seem to take the ideas that drive modern science seriously. As i have stated before Xtians are hypocrites, forever ignoring the hardcore realities that exist in the real world.
It doesn't surprise me that you have to invoke a divine being, a supernatural entity to knock over some dominoes. That you felt it necessary to manufacture out of thin air a divine entity to do a simple task, such as knock over a set of dominoes, speaks volumes. This is at best a deficient argument. Simple science along with a basic understanding of scientific principles will reveal that any one of a number of things or events could have caused the dominoes to topple over. Yet you seek to pin this action on your invisible and supernatural god, i have to wonder why. In my mind that is far from being logical and cohesive, and at least for me convincing. Not reasonable in any sense of the word. Sorry.
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You may say that the world started with a big bang--and that may be, but the big bang can not be it's own ammunition.
Or i may not, again i search for simple structure and credibility in your rather arbitrary statements. It is obvious you need to rethink your unknowable god. He too also suffers from this defect.
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This is one proof of many other proofs.
Wrong. Your obvious lack of knowledge of simple science is not a proof of anything, let alone of your supernatural and unforgiving diety. Arbitrary and absurd are two words that come to mind.
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Pop culture as in the culture of today's youth, very broad.
This definition is too narrow, you only seek to apply it to todays youth.
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You say that I can't prove God exists because you can't prove something exists that doesn't exist (I am sorry that I can not directly quote you on it because I don't know how to quote on here). However, you fail to prove that God doesn't exist.
The fact is you haven't proven anything at all, other than that you don't possess a basic understanding of simple scientific ideas.
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Also, you say to look at "Xtianity proper." What is Christianity proper? You throw around the term as though we all know what that means, but I certainly don't. Do you know the entire history of Christianity?
Again you find it necessary to flounder around in half-truths and convenient distortions. You seem anxious to ignore and bury the extremely simple idea that there is more to history, and Xtian history than those who suffered a horrible fate at the hands of others, and considered themselves to be Xtians.

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Old Sep 10, 2007, 02:45 AM   #46
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...somebody has a big problem...
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Old Sep 10, 2007, 05:07 AM   #47
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The unmoved mover? Please clean this up for me, no one can be that easily deceived. Plus you are confusing, no violating and corrupting, the ideas of motion and inertia. You can't be serious. What you are describing is nothing more than a souped up fairy tale. You don't seem to take the ideas that drive modern science seriously. As i have stated before Xtians are hypocrites, forever ignoring the hardcore realities that exist in the real world.
It doesn't surprise me that you have to invoke a divine being, a supernatural entity to knock over some dominoes. That you felt it necessary to manufacture out of thin air a divine entity to do a simple task, such as knock over a set of dominoes, speaks volumes. This is at best a deficient argument. Simple science along with a basic understanding of scientific principles will reveal that any one of a number of things or events could have caused the dominoes to topple over. Yet you seek to pin this action on your invisible and supernatural god, i have to wonder why. In my mind that is far from being logical and cohesive, and at least for me convincing. Not reasonable in any sense of the word. Sorry. Or i may not, again i search for simple structure and credibility in your rather arbitrary statements. It is obvious you need to rethink your unknowable god. He too also suffers from this defect.Wrong. Your obvious lack of knowledge of simple science is not a proof of anything, let alone of your supernatural and unforgiving diety. Arbitrary and absurd are two words that come to mind.This definition is too narrow, you only seek to apply it to todays youth.The fact is you haven't proven anything at all, other than that you don't possess a basic understanding of simple scientific ideas. Again you find it necessary to flounder around in half-truths and convenient distortions. You seem anxious to ignore and bury the extremely simple idea that there is more to history, and Xtian history than those who suffered a horrible fate at the hands of others, and considered themselves to be Xtians.
oh, Peppperland...you're cute. I think angry atheists are funny. I am taking a nap, but maybe I'll come back, I only read a little of what you said so far.

Although, I will say...there you go being exclusive again. "No one can be that easily decieved." Hahahaha...do you not realize that you are one of few human beings who are actually atheist, throughout all of history! And you're an angry one at that! Anger is a great environment for reason, I think...But you can go ahead and think you are smarter than Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas and Da Vinci and C.S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien and most everyone in history. You can think it--but you are wrong.

Anyway, on to better things, at least for the time being
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Old Sep 10, 2007, 08:50 AM   #48
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And to those who think that all religions are just as right as all the others--that is impossible. All religions hold some amount of truth, but every religion contradicts all the other religions--that is why they are different religions--and therefore, all religions can not be true. Truth can't be contradicotry...or it wouldn't be true....
I feel the extent religions contradict other religions usually lies in .. not the messages ... but in the 'who's really THE God' debate? There are not so many contradictions as there are similarities. A degree of the contradictions can be attributed to something along the line of a religous telephone game. Since most was not written down immediately, there will be some unTruths which will inevitably sneak in here or there, due to our own human frailties.

Srila Prabhupada has said this~


"The tendency [is for people] to think so ethnocentricly. Children do it all the time, "My father is better than yours!"

But looking maturely at the big picture with the use of the analogy of the Sun, one may get a more conclusive understanding. The one Sun that we see in our skies is universally appreciated and beneficial to all. In our individual or particular lands we call the Sun by different names according to our particular culture, and language of that place. In Australia the Aboriginals call it Rakumba; the Maori of New Zealand call the same Sun Ra; in England the Sun is referred to as Sun; in France Sole; in India either Ravi or Surya and so on. Is it not the same Sun???

In the same way The Absolute Truth (Brahman), The Supreme Being, The Infinite Intelligence, The Almighty Lord (YAHWEH, Jehovah), The Great One (Allah), The Enlightened or Learned One (Buddha), The Reservoir Of All Pleasure (Rama), The All Attractive One (Krishna) etc., etc., are all descriptive names for the same Supreme Being - God. What then is the difference if I say Sun or Surya? The distinctiveness of the name is only applicable to the region in which it is used, and the individual function attributed by it or to it. Are we not talking of the same? Is not our attention and appreciation attracted to the same qualities?

Still there will always be those who will not accept what we say, as there will always be those who will not accept me, as there will be those that will not accept you.

In this presentation we are not trying to wedge the philosophy of Krishna consciousness firmly up anyone's nose, rather we are trying to broaden the vision of those who may not be aware of fundamental background information that could and hopefully would change the perspective to viewing the broader picture."
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Old Sep 10, 2007, 09:11 AM   #49
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...somebody has a big problem...
That was a rather unnecessary comment.
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Hahahaha...do you not realize that you are one of few human beings who are actually atheist, throughout all of history!
Wrong. I have never stated a religious belief here beyond debunking your strange divine entity that likes to knock over dominoes with his magic hand. Once again i must state for the record that you are either not paying attention to the facts or are severely misinformed. You can't possibly prove such a thing or provide any sort of reliable information, you make some rather arbitrary and implausible remarks, so in effect your statement is worthless.
And seasidewoman you can hide behind your rather childish personal attacks all that you want, but you haven't made the case for your invisible god, you have just unleashed alot of hateful and redundant rhetoric. The hypocritical and false wrappings of pseudo-science were removed and your imitation supernatural being was shown not to exist. And i never pretended that i was smarter or dumber than anyone else, i merely debunked your rather specious and careless assertions. Again a rather hateful thing to say, the exclusionary tone of your rather unbalanced remarks once again shows through. So go and worship your filthy and greedy Xtian god, something tells me it's better that way.

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Old Sep 10, 2007, 12:14 PM   #50
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That was a rather unnecessary comment.
Wrong. I have never stated a religious belief here beyond debunking your strange divine entity that likes to knock over dominoes with his magic hand. Once again i must state for the record that you are either not paying attention to the facts or are severely misinformed. You can't possibly prove such a thing or provide any sort of reliable information, you make some rather arbitrary and implausible remarks, so in effect your statement is worthless.
And seasidewoman you can hide behind your rather childish personal attacks all that you want, but you haven't made the case for your invisible god, you have just unleashed alot of hateful and redundant rhetoric. The hypocritical and false wrappings of pseudo-science were removed and your imitation supernatural being was shown not to exist. And i never pretended that i was smarter or dumber than anyone else, i merely debunked your rather specious and careless assertions. Again a rather hateful thing to say, the exclusionary tone of your rather unbalanced remarks once again shows through. So go and worship your filthy and greedy Xtian god, something tells me it's better that way.
you are hilarious. the only one who hasn't proven anything is you--you haven't even tried. And the only one making personal attacks without reason is also you. This conversation cannot be rational with someone like you who is simply hostile--hostility is irrational. I would love to actually discuss it all with you, but obvious you are simply angry and hateful about it. Do you not see that you are being silly!
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Old Sep 10, 2007, 12:31 PM   #51
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Hari's Chick: I love reading what you have to say, considering you are one of the more rational on the board (i.e...you aren't hostile lol)

Anyway, to further your metaphor: say one group of people said that the Sun is the source of all coldness and darkness--that if it were not for the Sun, the world would be warm and wonderful and light. Or say another group of people say that the Sun is not one Sun, but many suns. That every day, a different Sun rises in the sky. And say a third group said that the Earth revolves around one Sun and that the Sun heats Earth and provides it with light. Is not only one of those groups right?

It is the same with religion--it is true that all of the names for the God of different religion (or the gods of some) are all different names for one God, for whatever each religion sees of God is where their idea of God comes from. However, one group says that God is really many gods with different powers, while another says that God is one omnipotent God. Some say God is the universe (or the spirit of the universe) while others say that God trancends the universe and created it. Some say that God is impersonal, or others that say God actively seeks man's harm or deception, while others say that God is a personal, loving God who created man to be with Him in perfect unity and happiness. There are many other examples of differences in what people teach about God, and they cannot all be true. God cannot be one God who is all powerful and many gods who share (even fight) over power. God cannot hate us and love us at the same time (that would look more like two forces, one good and one evil, but that is not the same as one, loving, omnipotent God either.) So, the importance is not simply the similarities, but which religion also holds all the other truths (or at the very least, the most of the other truths). Is God one God or many? Does He love us? Does he seek us to be happy or were we made as sea of slaves for him to torment?

These differences are important and it important to know that not all religions can totally true simultaneously.
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Old Sep 10, 2007, 12:42 PM   #52
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seasidewoman you have said little, explained nothing, and seem to prefer to engage only in childish personal attacks to prove your point, ever avoiding and rejecting the comments made by others. You are the one that is not rational, you are the one that is hostile, it seems a bit fitting that you seem to think that you are the only one that is rational here, and capable of intelligent discussion. Yet i find it curious that you choose to invoke an inivisible divine being to knock over a set of dominoes, supposedly to prove the existence of a supernatural entity. Please tell us what else you magic handed supernatural being can do. A bit strange that you also seem intent on limiting your oppressive and invisible all-powerful being. Like i said before you can't be serious, but given the obnoxius and hateful tone of your previous messages, obviously you are. In fact you were bold enough or misinformed enough, to try to throw some sham pseudo-science in with your laughable and silly proof, i suppose to make it look good. One problem with your explanation was that you were unable to differentiate between force, inertia, and a moving object. Just silly, yet in my mind this clearly shows that you are incapable of independent thought. How Xtian of you. Just some more hypocritical and self-serving half-truths from a typical unthinking Xtian, the exclusionary tone of your pathetic statements is a dead giveaway.

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Old Sep 10, 2007, 12:45 PM   #53
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Old Sep 10, 2007, 12:47 PM   #54
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seasidewoman you have said little, explained nothing, and seem to prefer to engage only in childish personal attacks to prove your point, ever avoiding and rejecting the comments made by others. You are the one that is not rational, you are the one that is hostile, it seems a bit fitting that you seem to think that you are the only one that is rational here, and capable of intelligent discussion, yet i find it curious that you choose to invoke an insivisible divine being to knock over a set of dominoes, supposedly to prove the existence of a supernatural entity. In fact you were bold enough or misinformed enough, to try to throw some sham science in there, i suppose to make it look good. One problem with your explanation was that you were unable to differentiate between force, inertia, and a moving object. Just silly, yet in my mine this clearly shows that you are incapable of independent thought. How Xtian of you. Just some more hypocritical and self-serving half-truths from a typical unthinking Xtian, the exclusionary tone of your pathetic statements is a dead giveaway.
do you not consider that entire thing a personal attack? lol...I would love to continue talking about the topic with you, but all you've done is attack me like just now...so please, drop the anger and until you do that, drop talking to me too so that I can avoid your anger. thanks.

God bless
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Old Sep 10, 2007, 12:54 PM   #55
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do you not consider that entire thing a personal attack?
Wrong. Just because you say that i am angry, only as a way to avoid competent discussion, does not make it so. Like i said before, the hateful and exclusionary tone of your statements is impossible to miss. So once again i implore that you go and worship your filthy, selfish and greedy Xtian god. It's where you belong.

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Old Sep 10, 2007, 12:57 PM   #56
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Old Sep 10, 2007, 01:05 PM   #57
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how is "you go and worship your filthy, selfish and greedy Xtian God. It's where you belong." not a personal attack? not only a personal attack on me, but on EVERY Christian on this forum! Or, you can stop replying...either way.
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Old Sep 10, 2007, 01:11 PM   #58
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I agree, I certainly feel like I am under personal attack for my beliefs.
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Old Sep 10, 2007, 01:17 PM   #59
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The topic itself is interesting, but the lastest personal attacks has got to stop.
Everyone has their own believes, there is no right or wrong here, just respect each other.
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Old Sep 10, 2007, 01:18 PM   #60
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If you took that as a personal attack then that is your perception. You have failed to show that your impossible divine entity that likes to knock over dominoes even exists. That you worship something that can't be known or doesn't exist seems to me to be a bit unrealistic and the whole idea kind of seems superficial to me.

You have erred in your explanation with some simple science, i pointed out these errors, so do you go out, open a textbook and learn more about science and the laws of motion? No, of course not. You instead, and seeking only to avoid and reject any further discussion, label me as being irrational and my statements as being hostile. I feel that is a bit improper and unforgiving, if not totally unobjective at its core.

But there is something we haven't covered yet. The distortions and incorrect statements made about how badly early Xtians were treated. I also found this to be rather alarming, i would like to examine this point further.

Last edited by PepperlandFrog : Sep 10, 2007 at 01:30 PM.
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