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Old Aug 31, 2007, 07:49 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by PepperlandFrog View Post
...Furthermore they don't offer any further proof of the existence of a god or gods, just take the opportunity to malign modern music and the youth culture, as if that is all that is truly wrong in the world.
If a God does exist, what evidence could you realistically expect these believers to produce as proof? Is it incumbent upon Christians to prove the existence of God to non-believers? My view is that Religion and Faith are forever locked together.

As for the rest of the article, the crusade against pop culture isn't entirely without merit, I am sure that each of us can quickly name a handful of popular music acts that spread messages of hate, violence, and anarchy. The Beatles should be the least of their worries.

What I don't understand are people that blame their own dysfunctional actions on the music they listen to, video games they play, and movies they watch. Why is it that todays youth can not differentiate between acceptable and unacceptable social behavior?

There is a bigger problem at play here: absentee parenting, powerless educators, and news bias. From an early age, either through family or the schools they attend, today's youth can not be allowed to escape the responsibilities for their actions. It is not OK for society to continue to support the theory that their actions are a product of the edgy media entertainment they consume. Every non-mentally ill human understands the difference between right and wrong, and no media, no matter the content, should inhibit one's ability to differentiate between them.

Yes, youth can be persuaded by pop-media to smoke pot, take drugs, participate in violence etc., but they are doing so willingly.

How does a free society stop the mentally ill from performing hideous acts of violence like at Columbine and Virginia Tech, acts that were probably influenced by the media I defend?

What do we suggest be done to stem the rising problems in our societies? Censorship of pop-media may work for some countries, but it will be nearly impossible to implement here in the free states. Who decides what is inappropriate and where is the line drawn?

We hold the responsibilities as a society, an educator, parent, family, role models etc. to impart knowledge upon our youth that teaches the acceptable rules of society and humankind alike. Laws are no substitute.
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Old Aug 31, 2007, 08:16 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by beatlebangs1964 View Post
As a Christian, I was extremely perturbed by the 3-part series by Christiane Amanpour (Jewish, Moslem and Christian). I was perturbed by the way extremists use religion to justify cruelty, bigotry and hate.

"We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another." -- Jonathan Swift, 1711

That is a gross MISuse of religion - Luce and his Teen Mania seem very extremist to me. As a Christian, I feel that acceptance of other faiths, values and beliefs (and for those who do not believe in God, per se, but the core values and beliefs of those people) is crucial. I don't feel right about prosletyzing or pushing my beliefs onto others. There is room for all opinions, but the radical factions and their extremist behavior is what terrified me.
I would urge caution when calling any religious group extremist. I haven't had a ton of exposure to Teen Mania, but the exposure I have had with them raises no red flags for me. I know that they do happen to be a Christian group that believes that evangelism is central to Christianity. Your interpretation of scripture sounds like you don't agree with evangelism (which is up to you...people ddefinitely have different interpretations), but for me personally I believe that as Christians God calls us to evangelism. I personally do a pretty lousy job at it, but I have been very active in evangelism in the past. As long as it's done in a way that isn't pushy, I see absolutely nothing wrong with having conversations with people about God or what they think of him. You never know what might stir someone's interests.

The other thing I would say is that as a Christian, I don't feel that acceptance of other people's faiths is crucial. Acceptance of them as people is crucial. I cannot possibly accept that Islam, Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism are all true. Especially for the first three listed, their holy books all have information pointing to the fact that their religion, or the God they talk about in their book, is the right one. They can't all be right. It's not popular at all to say "I believe this, and I think your religion is wrong", but if you believe whatever holy book you follow is true, then essentially you are saying that other people's religions are wrong. That sounds incredibly harsh, but I have to say that when I hear a Muslim say that they think Christianity is false, I respect that. That means that they have bought into Islam wholeheartedly.

That being said, that doesn't mean that anyone from any relgious background has the right to treat other people as if they are lesser. So for Christians, we should not look at non Christians as lesser people. I am an imperfect being, and me being a Christian doesn't make me better than anyone else. Christianity states that all people are made in the image of God, and that God loves everyone. If Christians believe this, then we are in no place to treat someone with anything less than how God would treat them. God loves them and created them in his very own image, so I should treat them accordingly.

Sorry to go on for so long. I am 100% positive that not everyone here agrees with my opinion, but I do think places like this are good for getting everyone's opinions out there, and being able to have open, honest discussions.
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Old Aug 31, 2007, 11:37 AM   #23
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I would urge caution when calling any religious group extremist.
I don't see what difference it makes.

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Old Aug 31, 2007, 11:43 AM   #24
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I read erinluv's post and there is nothing hypocritical about it, in fact I agree with many things she said.
However I disagree with the way you express things.

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I disagree. Why express your opinions, castigate others for doing the same, bend over backward to state that "nothing is wrong" with religion, then say that this isn't the place for down to earth and competent discussion? You can't have it both ways. Also this is one reason why many believe that Xtians are hypocritical and partial in their beliefs. The bias is hard to miss.
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Old Aug 31, 2007, 11:46 AM   #25
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...nothing to see here...
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Last edited by Rellevart : Aug 31, 2007 at 11:48 AM. Reason: redundant, after the last post, and I don't wanna pile on...
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Old Aug 31, 2007, 02:44 PM   #26
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I went overboard in my criticisms here.

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Old Sep 02, 2007, 02:02 AM   #27
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I don't feel that acceptance of other people's faiths is crucial. Acceptance of them as people is crucial. I cannot possibly accept that Islam, Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism are all true. Especially for the first three listed, their holy books all have information pointing to the fact that their religion, or the God they talk about in their book, is the right one. They can't all be right.
They can...It's not about which God is right, there is only one God whatever he's called. And the God of the bible is the same as in the Koran.
Acceptance of other people is crucial, but also that they have another religion.

I think we all search for the truth that fits ourselves the best. For some it's in the Islam for other Christianity, while others think religion has very little to do with God. It certainly has become twisted by many diferent people interpretations, that's why we don't have one religions but many views of the truth. But I believe it's something personal. Ofcourse we need to learn and hear from people about different religions, but we all need to make our own choises.

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I would urge caution when calling any religious group extremist
I agree with that, but this article clearly deals with people who have extremists views.

Last edited by Legs : Sep 02, 2007 at 09:51 AM. Reason: I can't think of the right words to say what I mean. But it's close enough now.
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Old Sep 02, 2007, 04:27 AM   #28
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I went overboard in my criticisms here.
Did you delete your entire rebuttal post?
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Old Sep 02, 2007, 09:31 AM   #29
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I guess I wouldn't come down too hard on this kid. I'm a Christian, and I don't think that the Beatles music is evil at all. However I can relate to his attempts to remove things from his life that get in the way from his relationship with God. Every person is different, and for this kid, maybe he was too obsessed with it all, or something. I don't understand how the Beatles could make him angry, as their music most of the time has the complete opposite affect on me (they make me feel happy and comforted), but if that's how he felt then he has a personal right to not listen to them if he chooses not to. I really think that our Georgie at the very least would support him in his opinion, because George would probably say "absolutely, put your relationship with God first".
erin, I agree here with you in this post very much.

I think it is nice that these kids are focusing in God instead of more mundane things of the material world. While I don't see the Fabs as a negative influence, it's best if they feel that way to walk their own path and just steer clear.

The thing which concerns me a little is how their pendulum of enthusiasm needs to point fingers at gay people. It's possible to be "pro Jesus" and focus on their own paths without pointing fingers at entire segments of society. That isolates and generates homophobia.


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Originally Posted by erinluv182 View Post
I cannot possibly accept that Islam, Christianity, Judaism and Hinduism are all true. Especially for the first three listed, their holy books all have information pointing to the fact that their religion, or the God they talk about in their book, is the right one. They can't all be right. It's not popular at all to say "I believe this, and I think your religion is wrong", but if you believe whatever holy book you follow is true, then essentially you are saying that other people's religions are wrong. That sounds incredibly harsh, but I have to say that when I hear a Muslim say that they think Christianity is false, I respect that. That means that they have bought into Islam wholeheartedly.
I understand how you mean this, but in Hinduism, one believing in the Gita for example, does not mean that Hindus see other Holy books as wrong. It is believed for example in Vaisnavism that God comes to reveal truth when society goes astray. God takes on various incarnations out of compassion. So, Krishna, Jesus, Buddha... all can be worshiped and honored. It is inclusive.

I was told in Catholicism that if a person of another faith so much as heard the name Christ and did not immediately renounce thier 'heathen ways' ... that they would go to hell. It was taught that if they were simply 'ignorant of Jesus presence' they would go to 'limbo'. (I think since they've done away with that concept) This makes no sense at all. It does not acknowledge cultural and social realities in people's lives whatsoever.

Why would God not give all cultures an equal opportunity to reach Him/Her by revealing Himself to each culture in an understandable way?

just thoughts...
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Old Sep 02, 2007, 09:47 AM   #30
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Yes i would be happy to. It's the bit where these teen Xtians, in particular, pretend that they are speaking for an omniscient and omnipotent god, when there is no logical proof for the existence of one, beyond the belief in biblical scripture, is what bothers me the most. Furthermore they don't offer any further proof of the existence of a god or gods, just take the opportunity to malign modern music and the youth culture, as if that is all that is truly wrong in the world.
As George said, "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

In all spiritual cultures, and throughout history, there is so much testimony to the mystical experience. But it is like describing chocolate to someone who may have never eaten chocolate. It is experiential, and if you have to believe on faith alone, then I can see where it would be difficult to sustain believing.

Like George quoted... I do not have the exact quote, but something close to.. "If there's a God I want to see Him. It's better to be a non believer than a hypocrite."
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Old Sep 02, 2007, 12:23 PM   #31
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Did you delete your entire rebuttal post?
Yes i saw that it served no useful purpose. I will reinstate my apology to erinluv, i never intended to hurt anyones feelings or criticize them in particular.
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Old Sep 02, 2007, 12:29 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Legs
I read erinluv's post and there is nothing hypocritical about it, in fact I agree with many things she said.
However I disagree with the way you express things.
I also read erinluvs post, it seemed rather thoughtless and rude to me. In fact i found that she only attempted to dismiss the remarks made by beatlebangs1964 out of hand, only to avoid any real discussion.

And you're right Legs, there is no such thing as hypocrisy or greed.
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Old Sep 02, 2007, 12:36 PM   #33
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erin, I agree here with you in this post very much.

I think it is nice that these kids are focusing in God instead of more mundane things of the material world. While I don't see the Fabs as a negative influence, it's best if they feel that way to walk their own path and just steer clear.
I can't believe you are saying this Hari's Chick. Did you miss the part where Xtianity is the only religion that matters, that others peoples beliefs don't count in the final analysis? I didn't that seemed rather arbitrary and exclusionary to me. It seems to me that people that can only criticize pop culture are on a very dangerous path.

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Old Sep 02, 2007, 01:05 PM   #34
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I didn't really get that from it? I've reread it, now, but still don't really see that? (I could be wrong, though...)

But isn't popular culture just a random spin, more or less?

There are so many things I find so useless in pop culture, like Marilyn Manson... I see no value in his 'work'. I would not work to limit his freedom of speech, but I would never buy a cd.
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Old Sep 02, 2007, 01:15 PM   #35
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I didn't really get that from it? I've reread it, now, but still don't really see that? (I could be wrong, though...)

But isn't popular culture just a random spin, more or less?

There are so many things I find so useless in pop culture, like Marilyn Manson... I see no value in his 'work'. I would not work to limit his freedom of speech, but I would never buy a cd.
My mistake, she went on to devalue other peoples religions in another post. But in my mind her defending of these happy go lucky extremist Xtian youth is indefensible.

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Old Sep 02, 2007, 03:23 PM   #36
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I am not against evangelism. The Catholic faith which is the religion I follow very much encourages witnessing; evangelism and faith sharing. What I said I had trouble with was prosletyzing; declaring there is really only one true way when that is not the case and any behavior, repeat, behavior that denies others their rights to freedom of expression and that includes religious expression.

I do think that acceptance of other religions IS important -- each person has to decide for themselves what is right for them. Knowing other people and their cultural backgrounds; beliefs and religions as well seem to me the ways to help BUILD tolerance. It is only by knowing what others' beliefs are that we, as individuals can make better decisions about our own. As with any argument/discussion, if you know where another perspective originates and where someone else is coming from, then you are in a better position to evaluate your own beliefs and you might even change them; modify them or feel they are right to you based on the information that's been presented to you and stay with them. Any way you look at it, you have given others a fair chance to express themselves and you have had a chance to learn from other perspectives. That is, I think the first step toward tolerance.

While I may not agree with certain tenets or expressions of same, I do believe that each person has the right to follow their core values and beliefs. There is room for all schools of thought. Frog said it well about how upsetting it was to hear people say that Christianity is the only right faith. Even though I am a Christian, I don't believe that it is the only right way - religions are expressions of beliefs and everybody has to find their own way and what works best for them.


As George said, "if you don't know where you're going, any road'll take you there" and "if you open up your heart, you will see He's right there. He always was and will be; He'll relieve you of all your cares." God is for everybody and I believe that if people treat others with dignity and compassion; show tolerance and keep an open mind to other ways of thinking and other beliefs (as did George) and to accept people and recognize their rights, then that will take everybody further down the path they want to travel.
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Old Sep 07, 2007, 09:45 PM   #37
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I have had some more thoughts about this article.

To start with, CNN opening the article referring to the Beatles is in my view misfitting propaganda and creating a wrong atmosphere on the issue.

This is all about this person Ron Luce and reading what he says still conflicts my mind, even though his background seems ok. “Raised in a broken home, Ron ran away at the age of 15 and became involved in drug and alcohol abuse before finding Jesus at the age of 16. The life-transforming impact of Christ inspired Ron to dedicate his life to reaching young people. After receiving both bachelor's and master's degrees in counseling and psychology, Ron and his wife, Katie, started Teen Mania in 1986 with nothing more than a hatchback car and a dream to raise up an army of young people who would change the world. He has received an honorary doctorate by Jerry Falwell from Liberty University and was appointed by President Bush to serve as an advisory member for the Commission and Drug free Communities from 2002-present.”

However the approach still reminds me of certain cults and have been known for a lot of sadness and cruelty and deaths via their approach. I could be wrong though so I am interested in opinions.

Even the referred to “Acquire The Fire” writes on their website “Acquire the Fire is a Christian youth event that helps transform teenagers to become passionate followers of Christ, equipping them to radically influence their community and the world.

And their promo video http://www.acquirethefire.com/page/ekit_downloads

looks quite aggressive to me

The words ‘warriors’, ‘radically’, ‘fighting’, “Luce and his followers”, “Battle”, “war” I can not combine with what they seem to want from today’s teenagers.

Yes I can very well understand how Jarid Hutchins found the balance between spending time on music and spending time on spirituality make him change things. Yes I can very well see that today’s music videos going round on the MTV’s with rap artists making quite violent videos to promote their songs and often those songs are about how men rule over girls just to name one example and when you read the music titles of these days music especially in the rap scene or what they call R&B these days, but also in heavy metal, yes that also makes me raise my eyebrows. So from there I can see their point, but the radical approach I read in some articles about this movement and on their own website really seems scarey.

Now...since we are primarily Beatles talkers here, as for the Beatles music, we know how the Beatles sort of introduced the “Love” period in the mid sixtees and how John did what he did for Peace and anti-war, and how George has been writing spiritual related almost gospel kind of songs about religion/spirituality and self realization.

So I do not quite see the relevance of naming the Beatles here upfront, but apart from that, I wonder what your views are on this organisation.
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Old Sep 08, 2007, 03:06 PM   #38
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I have had some more thoughts about this article.

To start with, CNN opening the article referring to the Beatles is in my view misfitting propaganda and creating a wrong atmosphere on the issue.

This is all about this person Ron Luce and reading what he says still conflicts my mind, even though his background seems ok. “Raised in a broken home, Ron ran away at the age of 15 and became involved in drug and alcohol abuse before finding Jesus at the age of 16.
Yeah look at poor poor Ron, living the flip side of the American dream. And yes the magic word here is propaganda, after all that is what cnn and most if not all of the mass media outlets do best. And i suppose this typical Xtian anti-social rhetoric is supposed to balance out with the unbelievable non-sequitirs, hateful contradictions and useless explanations that comes out of our inept and greedy politicians mouths.
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The words ‘warriors’, ‘radically’, ‘fighting’, “Luce and his followers”, “Battle”, “war” I can not combine with what they seem to want from today’s teenagers.
That is a good point FPSHOT. Those words are teasers, used only to add interest and color to an otherwise offensive and boring tribute to those selfish and confused individuals who identify with religion in general and Xtian beliefs in particular. Obviously they are not spreading a message of love and forgiveness, but one of hatred and exclusion.

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Old Sep 08, 2007, 10:50 PM   #39
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I think it is incredibly ironic that I happened to get on the forum today...my oh my how much there is to say. However, so many things are wrong with pretty much everything I saw up there...there is no one point with which I can start and if I started, there would be too much to say. Ironic
though...that I happened on here today.

I will say the kid is right to not listen to the Beatles if he needs to, and I'd like to point out that he didn't say The Beatles were evil, but that subjectively they had a bad effect on him and subjectively HE shouldn't listen to them for a while. Good for him. I will also say that despite all the violence and terrorism as threats...it is the threat against the sanctity of sex that is the biggest threat to society as that is the one that is most greatly attacked. It is the threat against sex and morality that we should worry about.

And to those who think that all religions are just as right as all the others--that is impossible. All religions hold some amount of truth, but every religion contradicts all the other religions--that is why they are different religions--and therefore, all religions can not be true. Truth can't be contradicotry...or it wouldn't be true.

good luck going in circles on the objectively subjective plane...
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Old Sep 08, 2007, 11:04 PM   #40
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I will also say that despite all the violence and terrorism as threats...it is the threat against the sanctity of sex that is the biggest threat to society as that is the one that is most greatly attacked. It is the threat against sex and morality that we should worry about.
your 'definition' of the biggest threat is not clear to me as much as I try to understand it, so can you please be a bit more specific about your opinion?
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