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Old Jul 08, 2012, 03:51 PM   #41
Maia 66
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In fact, I believe Yoko has said when discussing the Lost weekend with John before she kicked him out, the idea of him with a man was mentioned (and names were made but they escape me now).

John did before Elton was known publicaly to be gay, make a collage for his birthday and filled it with gay images. It's online. I can even link to it if you'd like.
I'd love the link! Never saw the collage before... at least I can't recall seeing it. Anyway, ta for that.

And yes... apparently, John made the suggestion of having an affair with a man, but how serious he was about it we can't be sure. It was the mid'70s... the whole androgyny/bisexual thing was in full swing!
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Old Jul 08, 2012, 04:35 PM   #42
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Here are my thoughts on the whole bisexual thing. I don't believe in the term. I equate it w Unicorn. John fathered two children. Unlike Michael Jackson, I don't think anyone will dispute that they are his. If you are a dude that can get an erection within any proximity of another dude, you are gay. Unless John made Cynthia and Yoko wear Rock Hudson masks while he was inseminating them, the dude is straight. Maybe he was caught up in some liberal romanticized idea of sexuality hanging around w Bowie and Elton and Brian Epstien. They were all very sophisticated and alluring. It's not hard to imagine him being impressionable around them.

Maybe he tried it. But I doubt it was anything that he discovered was missing from his life.
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Old Jul 08, 2012, 06:25 PM   #43
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Unless John made Cynthia and Yoko wear Rock Hudson masks while he was inseminating them, the dude is straight.
That...is a weird image in my head.
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Old Jul 08, 2012, 08:18 PM   #44
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If you are a dude that can get an erection within any proximity of another dude, you are gay.
Once again, I'm going to assume you are being genuine when I say... To any young people who may be reading: Do yourselves a favor and read a textbook so you'll know exactly why this statement is categorically untrue.

Even your logic doesn't work out. After the comment above, you state...

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Unless John made Cynthia and Yoko wear Rock Hudson masks while he was inseminating them, the dude is straight.
...but then you say...

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Maybe he tried it.
...which would mean, by your definition above, that John was gay.
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Old Jul 08, 2012, 11:48 PM   #45
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I'd love the link! Never saw the collage before... at least I can't recall seeing it. Anyway, ta for that.

And yes... apparently, John made the suggestion of having an affair with a man, but how serious he was about it we can't be sure. It was the mid'70s... the whole androgyny/bisexual thing was in full swing!
Reading your recent posts, I got overall the impression that you quite like the idea of John being gay or bi, dont' you ? Or at least, it's a subject you apparantly enjoy... ?

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Old Jul 09, 2012, 04:39 AM   #46
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Once again, I'm going to assume you are being genuine when I say... To any young people who may be reading: Do yourselves a favor and read a textbook so you'll know exactly why this statement is categorically untrue.

Even your logic doesn't work out. After the comment above, you state...



...but then you say...



...which would mean, by your definition above, that John was gay.
First, which textbook would you suggest a young man read that'll explain away his becoming sexually aroused when in the presence of another man, as something other than homosexuality? Nobody goes through their adolescence confused about their sexuality. The conflict comes from the denial.

Secondly, "tried" means just that. Without getting too graphic on music messageboard, I think we adults know what results in a successful sexual encounter. And what results in a non fulfilling attempt. I do not believe a non gay man can have a successful sexual gay experience. Hence the term "tried".

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Old Jul 09, 2012, 04:49 AM   #47
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He wasn't gay. He liked the ladies. If he had wanted sex with men, he would have had sex with men and there would be an awful lot more info out there about it other than just the mere rumours that exist. I don't think he even dabbled. As I have said before, makes no difference to me if he did or not but I just don't think he did.
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Old Jul 09, 2012, 05:23 AM   #48
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Thumbs up Well said

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He wasn't gay. He liked the ladies. If he had wanted sex with men, he would have had sex with men and there would be an awful lot more info out there about it other than just the mere rumours that exist. I don't think he even dabbled. As I have said before, makes no difference to me if he did or not but I just don't think he did.
I absolutely agree John was the kind of man who liked to provoke, so if he really had sex with men, he probably would have boasted about and - as you say - there would be muuuuuch more information about.

But all we have are only few rumours about which - of course - only started after his passing from crap-authors like Goldman or sensational-fairy-tale-writers like Horst Fascher.

Oh well, everyone is free to believe what they want, but for me it's clear that John wouldn't have made a big secret about if he had sex with men. Personally, I can't recall any other artist who was so open and honest like John.

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Old Jul 09, 2012, 05:26 AM   #49
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I do not believe a non gay man can have a successful sexual gay experience.
... neither do I

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Old Jul 09, 2012, 05:50 AM   #50
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Default Love and pain and the whole gay thing

A) It IS possible for a man who is essentially "straight" to have gay experiences. There have been studies of imprisoned men who had gay experiences (no, NOT just prison rape) during their incarceration.
B) In the 70's, it was considered a shocking and hip thing to at least "pose" as gay, or insinuate one was, in the music world. Of the top of my head, David Bowie, Elton John, the New York Dolls, and Lou Reed come to mind. Some of them really ARE gay (Elton John). For some, it seems to have been more of a way of gaining attention (David Bowie; but I can only base this on his public persona. He has been married to Iman for years, but who knows what truly goes on in anyone's relationship?)

John liked to try new things. He didn't take anything on trust from society's mores. He, like Wilde, was a born antimonian. So, yeah, I think he probably tried it. I'd say he was a 6 on the straight side of the Kinsey scale, but I don't care one way or the other.
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Old Jul 09, 2012, 06:12 AM   #51
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I believe I'm qualified to speak on the subject as a lifelong heterosexual. I can tell you there is no amount of incarceration that us going drive me into the arms of a fellow convict. But I'd be more than willing to listen to how someone can totally re-wire their biology as a result of deprivation. That being said, John Lennon was far from deprived.
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Old Jul 09, 2012, 06:40 AM   #52
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Thumbs up That's good !

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I believe I'm qualified to speak on the subject as a lifelong heterosexual. I can tell you there is no amount of incarceration that us going drive me into the arms of a fellow convict. But I'd be more than willing to listen to how someone can totally re-wire their biology as a result of deprivation. That being said, John Lennon was far from deprived.


... and by the way, I find it rather odd to compare John who was "free like a bird" with a deprived convicted in prison

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Old Jul 09, 2012, 08:51 AM   #53
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This thread has quickly devolved from 'Untouchable' to touching on the homophobic.

Snoopy ~ I did not bring up the subject of John's sexuality... I just responded to it. And I have NO ISSUE WHATSOEVER with discusing sexuality... homosexual, hetereosexual, bisexual (which is a real thing) and I don't understand why you would think that was an insult. Yes, I am passionate about this issue because I have personally seen too many people suffer because of the ignorance of others. So I try to spread the truth wherever I can to build understanding and tolerance.

And I will point out that YOU are the one who took the argument and tried to make it personal (again). Let's just stick to the subject at hand.

If the Colonel is an expert on male sexuality because he is a heterosexual male, then I am just as much an expert as a heterosexual female who lived 39 years in Hollywood/West Hollywood and who has seen a thing or two. I have friends who are gay, straight, bi, transgendered, androgynous... all over the sexual spectrum... and some that USED to sleep with the same sex when they were younger but are now in happy and fulfilling heterosexual relationships... although the inverse is also quite common.

As our pal Shakespeare once penned: There are more things in heaven and earth, Colonel, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

and enlightenment to you all... No H8. Silence=Death. Str8 but not Narrow. Love is a Universal Virtue. And every other pro-gay marriage slogan I can think of.
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Old Jul 09, 2012, 08:53 AM   #54
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...now let's return to the subject of controversial John-related themes. I think we can all agree that we will never know what he did in the privacy of his own privacy... and I hope we can all agree that it doesn't matter one way or the other what it is that he did.
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Old Jul 09, 2012, 09:05 AM   #55
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So I try to spread the truth wherever I can to build understanding and tolerance.
This is where I lose interest in your opinion. Your "truth" is nothing more than your opinion. And your endeavors to "build understanding and tolerance" is for everyone to subscribe to your unwavering opinion, err, truth.
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Old Jul 09, 2012, 09:08 AM   #56
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Your "truth" is nothing more than your opinion.
As is yours. However, mine is actually rooted in serious academic study.
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Old Jul 09, 2012, 09:19 AM   #57
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As is yours. However, mine is actually rooted in serious academic study.
Yes, it's my opinion. I would never be so arrogant as to deem it an irrefutable truth. Nor, I'm guessing, would any of the authors of any of these "serious acedemic studies" that I doubt you have even read.
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Old Jul 09, 2012, 10:18 AM   #58
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As I say to global warming deniers, I don't have to read an academic study to know that the sun is a star. Scientific consensus is enough for me. (Besides, I have read about the subject... and I took a graduate-level Human Sexuality course at UCLA.) Come at me as much as you want... I don't give up when I sense homophobia...but I do think we should change the subject, so I'll oblige.

This is not so "untouchable," but it seems to have caused a bit of controversy last time I brought it up several years ago... I think Paul wrote the Long and Winding Road for John. Not in a gay way ... just as a metaphor for the disintegration of their personal relationship.
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Old Jul 09, 2012, 10:32 AM   #59
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As I say to global warming deniers, I don't have to read an academic study to know that the sun is a star. Scientific consensus is enough for me. (Besides, I have read about the subject... and I took a graduate-level Human Sexuality course at UCLA.) Come at me as much as you want... I don't give up when I sense homophobia...but I do think we should change the subject, so I'll oblige.

This is not so "untouchable," but it seems to have caused a bit of controversy last time I brought it up several years ago... I think Paul wrote the Long and Winding Road for John. Not in a gay way ... just as a metaphor for the disintegration of their personal relationship.
Sorry I questioned your assertion that you've read every one of those links on bisexuality. But for every one of them, I can find another that'll refute their claims. So they mean nothing to me. Frankly, I can't remember a day in my life when I was so bored that I felt like taking some time to read serious academic studies on bisexuality. I made the mistake assuming my life's experience w gay friends and acquaintances and my own life a s a sexual being qualified me to understand something. And dial down your "homophobia" accusations. That's another problem w discussions w those like yourself. Any opposing viewpoint is met w some accusatory implication of a deviant underlying motive. Typical liberal debating tactic.

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Old Jul 09, 2012, 11:41 AM   #60
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This thread has quickly devolved from 'Untouchable' to touching on the homophobic.

Snoopy ~ I did not bring up the subject of John's sexuality... I just responded to it. And I have NO ISSUE WHATSOEVER with discusing sexuality... homosexual, hetereosexual, bisexual (which is a real thing) and I don't understand why you would think that was an insult. Yes, I am passionate about this issue because I have personally seen too many people suffer because of the ignorance of others. So I try to spread the truth wherever I can to build understanding and tolerance.

And I will point out that YOU are the one who took the argument and tried to make it personal (again). Let's just stick to the subject at hand.

As our pal Shakespeare once penned: There are more things in heaven and earth, Colonel, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Yes, it's correct that you didn't bring that subject up, but you are trying to convince others that John might/probably/maybe etc. had a gay relationship. Obviously, you find the vision of John & Stu, two men you love, being in bed together very romantic. O.k. if it makes you happy to think like that about John... it just seems that you are mixing up your WISH with SPECULATION (again).

Your assumption that I'm homophobic doesn't offend me as I know that it's not true. Being a fan of Bowie, Elton, Mercury and numerous gay actors it's just stupid to think so. And if someone close of John like Yoko, Cyn or Paul would pretend that John was bi, I could live with it, believe it or not. John being gay/bi is neither an insult, nor an honour to me and I wouldn't burn all his records even if it was a proven evidence. But I see it just as another rumour, spread around after his death. And yes, I admit: I fnd this kind defamation on dead people not very flattering. If you want to blame me for that, it's o.k. Maybe Julian and Sean wouldn't be enthusiastic about that too.

I learnt to know several gay people as well (you're not the only one) and I never made any negative experience with them. I don't know how it's in America, but here in Switzerland gay people are quite good accepted and often appreciated as being very human, sensitive and polite to work and live with. They aren't discriminated anymore, like 30 years ago. Still, to me they aren't better or worse than "straight" people. That's why I find it irritating that you always relate gays with "victim" and "suffering" and being faced with "intolerance".

The Shakespeare quote is nice, but those words can be applied to many things, and they are only words, not evidence to me.

Snoopy

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