DECCA AUDITION QUESTION

hey. i was reading the anthology 1 booklet and it said the beatles played 15 songs for the decca audition including the 5 on the anthology,i was wondering, have all 15 ever been released on bootleg?

joe

Yes, the best one to get imo is The Decca Tapes revised right speed, by Yellow Dog. YDB 101, which came in a box set, or also by Yellow Dog, "The Decca Tapes" YD 061, which was released separetly.

Originally Posted By Legs:
Yes, the best one to get imo is The Decca Tapes revised right speed, by Yellow Dog. YDB 101, which came in a box set, or also by Yellow Dog, "The Decca Tapes" YD 061, which was released separetly.

<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">I just listened to that yesterday! [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

The YD speed corrected one also includes some Cavern rehersals, making it essential to any Beatleg library. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Decca was one of the bootlegs I got.

The full list of songs at the Decca Audition was;

Besame Mucho, Hello Little Girl, The Sheik Of Araby, September In The Rain, Three Cool Cats, Love Of The Loved, Memphis, Till There Was You, Crying Waiting Hoping, Like Dreamers Do, Money, Searching, Sure To Fall, To Know Her Is To Love Her, and Take Good Care Of My Baby.

12 cover tunes and 3 Lennon/McCartney originals.
The originals being Hello Little Girl, Love Of The Loved, and Like Dreamers Do. Interesting for me is that only Money and Till There Was You were recorded on their Parlophone LPs.

[size="1"][ Dec 15, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message Edited By: Blackguard ][/size]

Legs, does your copy of the YD version have some weird noise right after Track 1?

Another more general question: is the running order on the YD version the order on the original audition tape?

I don't have the Yellow Dog one. I got an official release of the Decca Tapes, that was released back in the days before Apple began making trouble. It has the 13 cover songs, two originals are on Anthology and I got the 3th one, "Love Of The Loved" on Anthology Plus.

In answer to your second question.Mark Lewisohns book The complete Beatles chronicle, mentions the same running order as the Yellow Dog release, saying that it is the most likely order of performance.

Ok, thanks!

I wish I could find a cheap copy of Mark's Chronicle book. [img]images/icons/frown.gif[/img]

Originally Posted by onosideboards

Ok, thanks!

I wish I could find a cheap copy of Mark's Chronicle book. [img]images/icons/frown.gif[/img]

I could give you mine as I have no use for any of Lewisohn's books.

Here's a philosophical question: how do these people that "speed correct" these discs know what the "correct" speed is?

Originally Posted by dmpc

I could give you mine as I have no use for any of Lewisohn's books.

Here's a philosophical question: how do these people that "speed correct" these discs know what the "correct" speed is?

"Assuming" they were tuned to standard pitch... adjust the speed until it's in tune.

I have the original vinyl that was released in the late 70's by Joe Pope's Strawberry Fields magazine. Never checked to see if it's "in tune".

Originally Posted by earwax

"Assuming" they were tuned to standard pitch... adjust the speed until it's in tune.

I have the original vinyl that was released in the late 70's by Joe Pope's Strawberry Fields magazine. Never checked to see if it's "in tune".

And how does one know what "in tune" is? That is, how does one know these recordings ARE out of tune, since you weren't there that day?

Probably by comparing those recordings with those of the same songs that were available officially. I suppose it's safe to assume that the Beatles always played "Till There Was You" in F, and so on, so if in the bootleg tape you've got it sounds in E, all you've got to do is to speed it up until it sounds in F, and if, as is to be expected, no one was messing with the tape speed during the recording of the audition or the subsequent transfer to other tape, all the songs will then go at the right speed and pitch.

Originally Posted by El Gos Coix

Probably by comparing those recordings with those of the same songs that were available officially. I suppose it's safe to assume that the Beatles always played "Till There Was You" in F, and so on, so if in the bootleg tape you've got it sounds in E, all you've got to do is to speed it up until it sounds in F, and if, as is to be expected, no one was messing with the tape speed during the recording of the audition or the subsequent transfer to other tape, all the songs will then go at the right speed and pitch.

And you know what happens when you assume.

I suppose it might also be safe to say that perhaps The Beatles DID play out of tune, because, after all, Decca did turn them down. I would think an out of tune group would get turned down.

The issue here is not that they were in or out of tune but whether or not they were tuned to proper concert pitch.

The difference is if you are in tune and you play a G chord it sounds good, there are no bad sounding notes within the chord. If you are tuned and at proper pitch that G chord will match a G chord on a well tuned piano or other tuning reference. If you tuned a whole step down from concert pitch that G chord will sound like an A chord.

A good example is Chuck Berry's early singles were performed at concert pitch but when the tapes were transferred to vinyl they sped the tape up so that when Chuck plays an E chord it sounds like an F chord. This was done to make Chucks voice sound higher and younger. So when Kieth Richards learned to play Chucks songs he learned them in a different key than the one Chuck actually played them in.

Who made the choices/final decision for the Decca recordings?
Brian? The Beatles? ... all the above?

Originally Posted by dmpc

And you know what happens when you assume.

I suppose it might also be safe to say that perhaps The Beatles DID play out of tune, because, after all, Decca did turn them down. I would think an out of tune group would get turned down.

I cannot hear the Beatles playing or singing particularly out of tune in the Decca audition. I never said they did. And there's no reason to suppose it might be safe to say it: all you have to do is listen to the recording and decide, not suppose. One of the explanations that was given for their rejection (apart from the famous remark about guitar groups being on their wat out) is that the other group that was auditioned, the Tremeloes, was more convenient, being a London group. No one said anything about their being out of tune. Anyway, everyone knows that in the early days of their recording career the Beatles didn't stand out as gorgeous recording musicians. If EMI did finally got them (and if we believe George Martin and Norman Smith) it wasn't mainly because of their musical abilities, but for their charm.

As UncaDan has already explained, playing with a different tuning (which is what I was talking about) has nothing to do with playing out of tune, and is something perfectly admissible. One possibility might be that, being nervous, they decided to tune their guitars one or two semitones low, to avoid high notes. But I don't think they did; there's no know instance of their doing so, and neither the decay of the drum sound nor their voices sound as if the tape had required speeding up to sound in normal concert pitch (some time ago I did some kind of experiments regarding this with a cousin of mine who had studied recording techniques and sound processing).

No, the issue is whether or not the person doing the adjusting of the tapes years after the fact was ever there at the Decca audition, and he or she wasn't.

So, how does one REALLY know if they are not the "correct pitch" as recorded? Answer: THEY DO NOT.

How do you KNOW Chuck Berry's tapes were sped up, were you in the studio? Nope, flyboy.

Speed correction is an arbitrary thing, I'm afraid to tell you. As you may or may not know, none of the remaining Beatles or any of their entourage remember anything, and Mark Lewisohn wasn't there, either (besides, he's useless).

Originally Posted by UncaDan

The issue here is not that they were in or out of tune but whether or not they were tuned to proper concert pitch.

The difference is if you are in tune and you play a G chord it sounds good, there are no bad sounding notes within the chord. If you are tuned and at proper pitch that G chord will match a G chord on a well tuned piano or other tuning reference. If you tuned a whole step down from concert pitch that G chord will sound like an A chord.

A good example is Chuck Berry's early singles were performed at concert pitch but when the tapes were transferred to vinyl they sped the tape up so that when Chuck plays an E chord it sounds like an F chord. This was done to make Chucks voice sound higher and younger. So when Kieth Richards learned to play Chucks songs he learned them in a different key than the one Chuck actually played them in.

Originally Posted by dmpc

No, the issue is whether or not the person doing the adjusting of the tapes years after the fact was ever there at the Decca audition, and he or she wasn't.

So, how does one REALLY know if they are not the "correct pitch" as recorded? Answer: THEY DO NOT.

How do you KNOW Chuck Berry's tapes were sped up, were you in the studio? Nope, flyboy.

Speed correction is an arbitrary thing, I'm afraid to tell you. As you may or may not know, none of the remaining Beatles or any of their entourage remember anything, and Mark Lewisohn wasn't there, either (besides, he's useless).

I believe that if the remaining Beatles do not remember anything, it's because there probably was nothing to be remembered. Don't you think Paul might remember that, just for once, they decided to tune down their guitars out of nervousness? If anyone made the decision to play at a different pitch than usual, it was the Beatles, so if there's someone who can remember it, it's he.

Speed correction may be an arbitrary thing when you haven't got any reference. But we do know in what tone the Beatles usually played some of the songs of the Decca audition. And I use the word "usually" in spite of the fact that there's no known instance of their doing it otherwise. Now, if you mean that we cannot know whether they were tuned to A440 or to A441, there you're right. In fact, my bootleg with the "speed correction" is at a very slightly different speed than the version used in "Anthology"... But they're clearly at the same pitch. I listened to a bootleg recording with the supposedly original speed, and, as I also mentioned above, you've only got to compare the voices and the drums and decide which version sounds more natural.

Following your reasoning, how do you know it was the Beatles who recorded the audition? Were you there at the studio? No, you weren't. Was "When I'm Sixty-Four" speeded up? Or was that Paul's natural voice, and all the rest of the rougher-sounding songs were slowed down? We cannot know, can we? We weren't there. How do you know George is dead, and that it wasn't all a farce to allow him to retire to a secluded life in the Himalayas, forgotten for ever by the paparazzi? Were you there to put the pennies on his eyes? How do we know the Cro-Magnon were hunters? Has whoever stated it lived for so long? Do you usually cut every cake before you eat it, just in case the pastry cook had a funny day and put a dead mouse inside? You weren't there when he made it! Take care!

How do you KNOW Chuck Berry's tapes were sped up

Because he said so. Watch "Hail, Hail, Rock and Roll".

Varying the tape speed was/is not an uncommon practice. The Beatles used it often for different effects ("Rain" was played fast then slowed down). Read "The Complete Recording Sessions".

I have not heard enough different versions of the Decca tapes to comment on those but it wouldn't be the first time a bootlegger got it wrong.