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Old Mar 04, 2006, 01:23 AM   #61
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For anyone on right now. There is an interview with Paul and Heather on CNN, don't know if it's just on CNN in Europe or that it has the same program as in the states, but I am watcing it. Good interview, and Paul made a point that he does listen to all sides, and he wants a good long term solution. If you just ask yourself do you want this killing to step, many Canadian people, and I think most people in general would say yes.
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Old Mar 04, 2006, 06:55 AM   #62
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Reading through the posts, most people have already brought up excellent points and have said things better than I ever certainly could.

But just to add my own two cents, first of all I have to say I have a huge admiration for what Paul and Heather are doing. They don't have to be up here, but they are because it's something they believe so strongly in. One thing about their charity and activist causes is that they open our eyes to many problems around the world. Like landmines, seal hunts (even though I'm from Canada, I haven't heard much about the seal hunts up here until this week), these aren't your typical causes you hear about every day. I really think it's great the two are so adament about these causes, and are helping to introduce the rest of the world to some of the inhumane practices that are going on.

As for the seal hunt, I realize that seals have to be killed to keep everything in check within the environment and all that, and is one of the few industries up north that people can rely on to earn a living. And if the seal population up here has tripled since the 70's and is stable now, like they're saying, then it sounds they have a good balance and people aren't just killing the animals without knowing what they're doing.

But - as for the barbaric treatment of clubbing seals, yes I absolutely agree that has to stop. Whether or not it's just a small percentage of seals that are still being clubbed... there shouldn't be a single one being clubbed today, that's so primitive and heartbreaking. Well done, Paul and Heather, for speaking out against it. Hope you can get through to our politicians.
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Old Mar 04, 2006, 07:14 AM   #63
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Posted this in the wrong thread, ignore or whatever you want.

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Old Mar 04, 2006, 07:21 AM   #64
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Firstly, I should clear something up, some people are calling us Newfoundlanders "natives", I'm assuming that by natives you mean Innu. But the amount of Innu that reside in Newfoundland is very small. I've lived in Newfoundland my whole life and have been all over the island, and can probably count on one hand the number of Innu people I have seen. No big deal, but I thought clarity was needed.

Clubbing a seal is a terrible way to kill them, I totally agree. Rifles should be used, and that is what the majority of people do use. But with anything, it is hard to get those few people to change no what you do. No matter how much law enforcement is provided to stop something, there are always those few who will slip through the cracks and get away with doing something like this.

I think the media is also misleading some people to believe that its the cute little furry white baby seals that are being killed. It is illegal to kill the seals when they are this young.

So what I'm trying to get at is that when seals are killed, they are not all killed by clubbing and it is not the white baby seals that are killed. And while I am sure that it does happen this way in some small percentage, it is not the majority and it is impossible to find everyone and stop everyone that might be doing this.
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Old Mar 04, 2006, 08:10 AM   #65
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As for the seal hunt, I realize that seals have to be killed to keep everything in check within the environment and all that, and is one of the few industries up north that people can rely on to earn a living. And if the seal population up here has tripled since the 70's and is stable now, like they're saying, then it sounds they have a good balance and people aren't just killing the animals without knowing what they're doing.
You could say the same thing about deer hunting. People go on and on about "Poor Bambi!", but the truth is, the deer population is huge thanks to mans slaughter of their natural predators, so hunting deer keeps their numbers in check. If we were to stop deer hunting, the numbers would increase, the deer would eat too much vegitation and the would slowly starve. Not to mention that deer would invade the urban areas.
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Old Mar 04, 2006, 08:22 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by VersusBatman
If we were to stop deer hunting, the numbers would increase, the deer would eat too much vegitation and the would slowly starve. Not to mention that deer would invade the urban areas.
Sounds a bit Monty Python to me! Gotta watch the deer...and the Biker Grannies, too!
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Old Mar 04, 2006, 08:27 AM   #67
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...and speaking of Grannies.. they, too, are impacting our resources, filling our old age homes, and sucking social security dry. They really should be slaughtered? Humanely, of course. Because our anthropocentric ideologies need further refinement to support only the fittest and most productive of our species. Are those old babbling Grannies with alzheimers and senility any more coherent than seals? I say lets be bold and only respect those with high functioning mental ability! Why stop with animals??
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Old Mar 04, 2006, 08:28 AM   #68
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Perhaps, but deer hunting isn't as evil as Bambi makes it out to be. At least they aren't clubbed to death.
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Old Mar 04, 2006, 08:30 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari's Chick
...and speaking of Grannies.. they, too, are impacting our resources, filling our old age homes, and sucking social security dry. They really should be slaughtered? Humanely, of course. Because our anthropocentric ideologies need further refinement to support only the fittest and most productive of our species. Are those old babbling Grannies with alzheimers and senility any more coherent than seals? I say lets be bold and only respect those with high functioning mental ability! Why stop with animals??
*sigh* Then what should we do about animals overpopulating the environment due to the cause of mans eliminating their natural enemies?
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Old Mar 04, 2006, 08:40 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asha
Just talked to my friend in Newfoundland. I asked her some more questions about all of this...

First off, Newfie has a limit on how many seals can be destroyed (like so many other animals that are protected - to some extent). Her sister works for the fisheries & the seals have really hurt the economy, which is why X number are destroyed each year. To call it a Seal Hunt sounds like they're killing them for no reason, but that's not the case. BTW, it's against the law for white coat seal pups to be "hunted".

She explained that over 90% of the seals that are destroyed are shot. They are not clubbed. There are laws to even prevent people from getting too close to seals for their own safety. (Mind you, seals are one of my fave animals & it still makes me sad that some are distroyed, but...)

She also explained that the seals that are shot are USED!!! Nothing goes to waste! Her father eats seal & loves it! Many people up there do. (She doesn't. She just eats chicken & fish by choice. She doesn't eat red meats or anything like that, so that's why she doesn't.) They use the fur & they use the fats for fuel & oils for vitamins that some of you probably take!

Anyway... check it out...
She even gave me this site so you can get more info yourselves!

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque/faq_e.htm

In my opinion, Paul's getting his nickers in a knot. As you and other's have said Asha, this whole seal thing is done as a) a main source of income for people from Newfoundland and b) because there are tons and tons of seals.

On an off topic note: I know from history classes a few years back, that historically Aboriginal/Native people (which ever term you prefer) would ALWAYS use every part of an animal that they hunted. Nothing would be wasted. And they would even say a little prayer thing thanking the animals spirit for giving it's life.......

So it is good to see that in a way, those old native practices are still used in the sense that as Asha said "Nothing goes to waste".

Yes, it is sad that these animals are killed, and it is good Paul takes a stand on animal rights, but, these animals are by no means endangered, and he should really focus all that energy on something else, and stop making Canada look like cold blooded animal killers, because we are not!
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Old Mar 04, 2006, 08:43 AM   #71
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Nicely put!

It's not as if they are skinning the seals and leaving their bodies out in the sun to rot. Or like the elephant poachers who not only kill an endangered species, but also take the ivory and leave the rest to rot.
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Old Mar 04, 2006, 08:59 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VersusBatman
*sigh* Then what should we do about animals overpopulating the environment due to the cause of mans eliminating their natural enemies?
You know the saying "Two wrongs don't make a right"?

Easy answers are not best answers, in fact for the most part solutions of value require both a stretch of imagination and a reliance/belief in humankind's more compassionate abilities.

You know the tremendous resources (financial, emotional, time, effort) spent in England to try to save the whale which went upsteam in the Thames? Why believe that worldwide people would not (if solicited properly and encouraged by sufficient media hype) do similar for the seal populations? I am sure Paul would donate a concert or ten to secure a proper refuges.
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Old Mar 04, 2006, 09:05 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony_leo
On an off topic note: I know from history classes a few years back, that historically Aboriginal/Native people (which ever term you prefer) would ALWAYS use every part of an animal that they hunted. Nothing would be wasted. And they would even say a little prayer thing thanking the animals spirit for giving it's life.......
I have heard this before and quite honestly... were someone goign to overpower me to 'use me' for their personal intentions... it is plain sick imo to 'thank' the victim for 'giving' when defending one's life force is INNATE and natural. The animal is not 'giving'? It is being robbed. If a murderer or rapest were to 'thank' their victim and then that was heard in a court of law, they would be viewed as the vilest of creatures. Rightly so. I wish the animal could spit in the face of such prayers. I honestly do. Sick prayers are just vile.
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Old Mar 04, 2006, 09:06 AM   #74
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Looney_leo, just btw, my disgust is not against your alternate opinion but against the creatures which do that. No bad feelings towards you, I know you are siting historical truths.
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Old Mar 04, 2006, 09:07 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legs
I'm not for all praising Paul and cheering him in everything he does. I must say however that I don't think this is just about Paul making the headlines.He does get publicity, I saw him three times on dutch t.v. yesterday, which is more then when he releases a new album.And I agree with Scouser. Paul already has shown over the past years that he generaly is concern about animal rights and the enviroment, and in that respect he has something in common with George and other people who suport these or any other good cause.

The main thing is that in this case it's not easy finding a solution. I don't think it's all meaningles and a waste of time. Just by doing this, Paul has got his head on Dutch t.v. and more people will buy his cd. No sorry that's not what i meant to say. People like me are being made aware of the issue, and together with Paul they did show these young seals being killed. Which was a horible thing to see. I just wish there would be an ideal solution where these killings wouldn't be needed, and the local people have a way of making a living, and a good one at that.

The problem I have that what is being shown and said is very one sighted. Like on the Dutch news, they made out that these people are all very cruel and doing it just for fun. Also the other side is being one sighted, the goverment of Canada, who in the end really can make a difference, should look more for other solutions.

I may have given the wrong impresion at first, that I don't want to discus these kind of things, and I only want topics about Paul's music, but that's not true. I was just afraid that this topic would be another repeat of all the Paul should boycot China and Canada stuff. Which in the end became really long and winding and meaningless. This topic has lots of good insights from different people.

This is also what Paul is about, and therefore has a place on this forum, and it's a worthwhile discusion so far.
Well said, Legs & FPSHOT and I can't improve on perfection. am not one to cheer everything Paul does or voice agreement with every position he has taken. Nobody agrees all of the time; it isn't possible. If there is one thing I just cannot stand it is grovelling. I hate it ! Anybody who knows BeatleBangs1964 knows that sycophantic behavior is the one thing that drives me stark staring up a tree.

The other part to sycophantic behavior is that it can be manipulative. I also think it is emotionally dishonest. Instead of discussing the issue or issues honestly, it becomes an exercise in appeasing others by voicing agreement at best and dodging the issues at worst. I hate that. That is why I can't stand apology threads. Enough on that from me.

Paul & George shared a reverence for life and devotion to their families. That is something that I deeply respect. The way the Messrs. Harrison & McCartney have expressed this and the way they have chosen to extend themselves and the causes they have undertaken are based on their individual approach. There is nothing wrong with that.

I don't think this is about Heather & Paul and headlines. Since they are public figures, anything they do or any place they go is bound to generate media attention. Paul, being the megatalent and public figure that he is and Heather, being the activist, author and spokesperson that she is are high profile people. If they were to walk into a store or a restaurant, BAM! Instant publicity. That in turn generates business for the store or restaurant in question and NOT because of anything Heather or Paul did or said. Press and papparazzi being what they are would jump at the chance to cover them and (in some cases, this could be deemed exploitative) again, it would NOT be because the McCartneys were angling for publicity.

Legs, I agree that their efforts are NOT meaningless or a waste of time. If Joe Citizen were to take up the banner for the seals' plight, would the issue be as far reaching or as well known as if a public figure steps up to the plate? It's all well and good to take up causes, but what really keeps the ball rolling is when others join in based on their beliefs. It is through knowledge and awareness that others can offer their input and help to effect changes. What is happening to those animals IS brutal and atrocious; the footage is testament to that.

I agree that I did not want this to degenerate into another tired litany of things people think Paul should boycott and places Paul should ban. That kind of thing gets old fast and ultimately helps no one. I don't think anybody is in any position to decide for any other person what causes they should support or what venues they should perform in or how they choose to take up their beliefs. Acceptance is the key.

Legs, I am glad you clarified in your post that you want topics other than Paul's music. I admit that I was mistakenly under the impression that you wanted only music-related topics and that was an unfair assumption on my part. I have said many times that it is KNOWING other sides of an issue that allows us to clarify/modify/understand and in some cases revise our own positions. FPSHOT hit the bull's-eye when he said the issue is not clear cut, black and white and he's right. There are many sides to the issue/issues and by finding out more about the issues, then one is in a better position to take that stand.
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Old Mar 04, 2006, 09:12 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari's Chick
You know the saying "Two wrongs don't make a right"?

Easy answers are not best answers, in fact for the most part solutions of value require both a stretch of imagination and a reliance/belief in humankind's more compassionate abilities.

You know the tremendous resources (financial, emotional, time, effort) spent in England to try to save the whale which went upsteam in the Thames? Why believe that worldwide people would not (if solicited properly and encouraged by sufficient media hype) do similar for the seal populations? I am sure Paul would donate a concert or ten to secure a proper refuges.
Even if the deer is used for food, it's still wrong to kill them?
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Old Mar 04, 2006, 09:13 AM   #77
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Old Mar 04, 2006, 09:15 AM   #78
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I see.

We'll have agree to disagree on that. I know someone who's family was poor and couldn't afford to buy meat. They hunted deer as a means to eat.
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Old Mar 04, 2006, 09:27 AM   #79
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Agreed to disagree. Thanks for sharing your thoughts back and forth, it was interesting to hear.
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Old Mar 04, 2006, 09:59 AM   #80
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It seems that alot of people are basically saying it is wrong to kill an animal even if it is for food. But this is the way nature operates. Animals kill animals for food, and while yes we are more intelligent, we still need to eat.
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