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Old Feb 07, 2013, 12:27 AM   #21
Snoopy66
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Post Well, my turn to be honest

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To be honest, how John got hooked on heroin has always been a little vague to me. And I never really cared. He wasn't the only rock star (or famous/un-famous individual) doing hard drugs at the time.
This heroin-period isn't "vague" to me at all, but pretty "real". I even believe, we can be lucky that John didn't end up the same way as Jimi Hendrix or Jim Morrison did. And your argument "he wasn't the only rock-star on heroin" is no excuse to me for Yoko and John doing the same. On the contrary, one would have expected them to behave in a more responsible way, as they were so-called "intellectual".

Further, it was mostly during that period when John not only neglected his personal look, but also - and this was even worse - his first son Julian.

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Old Feb 07, 2013, 08:09 AM   #22
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This heroin-period isn't "vague" to me at all, but pretty "real".
What I meant by "vague" is that I'm not sure of the exact circumstances that led him to start heroin, all I know is he did it and became addicted. People can point fingers at Yoko all they want, but ultimately it was John who decided to start doing the drug. So he bares some responsibility in the matter.

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I even believe, we can be lucky that John didn't end up the same way as Jimi Hendrix or Jim Morrison did. And your argument "he wasn't the only rock-star on heroin" is no excuse to me for Yoko and John doing the same. On the contrary, one would have expected them to behave in a more responsible way, as they were so-called "intellectual".
No, not an excuse at all. Drugs are a very serious thing and I would never employ the "you jump, I jump" theory completely on the matter. A person typically knows beforehand that it can lead to some serious consequences. But Snoopy it was the DRUG CULTURE. People were trying all kinds of things to see what would happen to them. Heroin was just another- albeit one that resulted in horrific casualties- 'new thing.' I'm not saying John (and Yoko) were smart for their choice, but it happened. They did it. He came out of it, thankfully, fully aware that it was a mistake and it did more harm than good.

And as far as prescribing their "intellectualism" to being more responsible...are you kidding Snoopy? Some of the most gifted, higher-level thinkers in existence were huge proponents of substances and chemicals. They pretty much started the cultural revolution of drug use. Being an intellectual and also responsible don't always go hand in hand.

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Further, it was mostly during that period when John not only neglected his personal look, but also - and this was even worse - his first son Julian.

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Yes. And I'm sure that was John's greatest regret.
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Old Feb 07, 2013, 05:06 PM   #23
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On the contrary, one would have expected them to behave in a more responsible way, as they were so-called "intellectual".
You're out there, Snoopy. The intellectuals and artists have in all times had a bent towards using drugs and booze. It's part of the bohemian lifestyle and why for so long musicians, painters, actors and poets were considered not quite acceptable. Just have a quick glance at the Romantic Movement of the Regency era. These people took opium on a regular basis. The famous poet Lord Byron is known to have been a drunkard and dabbling in drugs. His fellow writers Coleridge and Shelley were openly addicted to opium. And drugs have always played a part in the lives of the academia. So what's so strange with John and Yoko taking heroin (an opium derivate btw), especially since John had been experimenting with drugs since his Hamburg days? I'm no advocate of drug use, quite the contrary, but to expect persons to be good roll models just because they're famous, well, that's Utopia to me.

For a bit of reading up on the drug use in the Regency see this brief article on Wiki. Opium and the Romanticism Is there really that much difference between De Quincey's Confessions of an English Opium-Eater and Eric Claptons Cocaine a couple of centuries later? I certainly don't think so.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 05:49 AM   #24
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You're out there, Snoopy. The intellectuals and artists have in all times had a bent towards using drugs and booze. It's part of the bohemian lifestyle and why for so long musicians, painters, actors and poets were considered not quite acceptable. Just have a quick glance at the Romantic Movement of the Regency era. These people took opium on a regular basis. The famous poet Lord Byron is known to have been a drunkard and dabbling in drugs. His fellow writers Coleridge and Shelley were openly addicted to opium. And drugs have always played a part in the lives of the academia. So what's so strange with John and Yoko taking heroin (an opium derivate btw), especially since John had been experimenting with drugs since his Hamburg days? I'm no advocate of drug use, quite the contrary, but to expect persons to be good roll models just because they're famous, well, that's Utopia to me.
Again, I don't care at all who and how many intellectuals, poets etc. have taken heroin or opium etc. It wasn't my point to compare John's drug-behaviour with other famous people. The point is that I found it deeply wrong and irresponsible from Yoko to have introduced John in taking heroin, it's as simple as that and whether it's unpleasant to read for Yoko-fans or not, I really don't care anymore.

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Old Feb 10, 2013, 06:27 AM   #25
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You're out there, Snoopy. The intellectuals and artists have in all times had a bent towards using drugs and booze. It's part of the bohemian lifestyle and why for so long musicians, painters, actors and poets were considered not quite acceptable. Just have a quick glance at the Romantic Movement of the Regency era. These people took opium on a regular basis. The famous poet Lord Byron is known to have been a drunkard and dabbling in drugs. His fellow writers Coleridge and Shelley were openly addicted to opium. And drugs have always played a part in the lives of the academia. So what's so strange with John and Yoko taking heroin (an opium derivate btw), especially since John had been experimenting with drugs since his Hamburg days? I'm no advocate of drug use, quite the contrary, but to expect persons to be good roll models just because they're famous, well, that's Utopia to me.

For a bit of reading up on the drug use in the Regency see this brief article on Wiki. Opium and the Romanticism Is there really that much difference between De Quincey's Confessions of an English Opium-Eater and Eric Claptons Cocaine a couple of centuries later? I certainly don't think so.
Just because poets and writers did heroin doesn't mean it's ok for John & Yoko to take it.If the writers jumped off a bridge John & Yoko should've to?
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 07:44 AM   #26
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Just because poets and writers did heroin doesn't mean it's ok for John & Yoko to take it.If the writers jumped off a bridge John & Yoko should've to?
Well said; that's exactly my opinion too

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Old Feb 10, 2013, 07:59 AM   #27
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But that isn't the point, Chris and Snoopy. Of course it doesn't mean that it's acceptable just because poets and artists did drugs. But Snoopy said that as so-called "intellectuals" John and Yoko should have known better about trying drugs at all.

And I simply explained that being an "intellectual"- particularly a counter-cultural one in the art world- does not imply that their decisions are garnered by extreme ration or what we'd call common sense. Often, they were the ones pushing new trends or trying new things to see what would result. This was the circle John and Yoko moved in.

As John fans, you should know that he was forward-thinking and very ahead of his time. Drugs were just another facet of that. No one said it was the correct choice, and I don't think anyone here is pro-heroin.

Whomever got who into smack, the point is JOHN also bares some responsibility. It wasn't just Yoko. She may have introduced him and saw that he was impressionable to her suggestions, but John was a grown man. And thank goodness nothing tragic came of it. John made a very public statement ("Cold Turkey") about coming clean and how horrific it was for him. I deeply, deeply appreciate that he turned that experience into meaningful art. It was a very cathartic and real experience and I think that he did well by exposing the dangers to the public in that way.
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Old Feb 10, 2013, 08:28 AM   #28
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But that isn't the point, Chris and Snoopy. Of course it doesn't mean that it's acceptable just because poets and artists did drugs. But Snoopy said that as so-called "intellectuals" John and Yoko should have known better about trying drugs at all.

And I simply explained that being an "intellectual"- particularly a counter-cultural one in the art world- does not imply that their decisions are garnered by extreme ration or what we'd call common sense. Often, they were the ones pushing new trends or trying new things to see what would result. This was the circle John and Yoko moved in.

As John fans, you should know that he was forward-thinking and very ahead of his time. Drugs were just another facet of that. No one said it was the correct choice, and I don't think anyone here is pro-heroin.

Whomever got who into smack, the point is JOHN also bares some responsibility. It wasn't just Yoko. She may have introduced him and saw that he was impressionable to her suggestions, but John was a grown man. And thank goodness nothing tragic came of it. John made a very public statement ("Cold Turkey") about coming clean and how horrific it was for him. I deeply, deeply appreciate that he turned that experience into meaningful art. It was a very cathartic and real experience and I think that he did well by exposing the dangers to the public in that way.
Oh, John was a "grown man" then, are you kidding ? He was in the middle of many struggles then: the breakup with the Beatles, his unsolved emotional problems, not really knowing in which direction he should go after leaving the Beatles, the divorce from Cyn, the fight with Apple etc. Fact is, that he was very vulnerable then and yes, Yoko, as her "soul-mate" like all your Yoko-fans describe her, should have done better, than introduce him to heroin. As a John-expert you should know how weak and influencable John often was.

And even worse the fact that Yoko relapsed in the late 70's while having a little son, she even hadn't to take care of, what excuse you have for this behaviour now ? She was for sure a "grown and mature woman" then, wasn't she ? Of course, that's not that bad as having a "boring" wife, like Cyn...

I don't even dare to think how you would slam over Cyn, if he had taken with her heroin. But Cyn (and also May) desperately tried to prevent John from taking drugs and Yoko did just the opposite and that's why I put the blame on her. This horrific experience as you say, wasn't necessary at all and I'm sure it left in John some physical and psychic scars, so it just makes me angry when Yoko-fans just "downplay" this hard period in John's life in which he could have died like other rockstars then.

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Old Feb 11, 2013, 01:14 PM   #29
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Oh, John was a "grown man" then, are you kidding ? He was in the middle of many struggles then: the breakup with the Beatles, his unsolved emotional problems, not really knowing in which direction he should go after leaving the Beatles, the divorce from Cyn, the fight with Apple etc. Fact is, that he was very vulnerable then and yes, Yoko, as her "soul-mate" like all your Yoko-fans describe her, should have done better, than introduce him to heroin. As a John-expert you should know how weak and influencable John often was.
So you're implying that John doesn't need to take responsibility for his stupid choices? People gripe to no end of him neglecting his son during this time, so does all the above apply to that as well? No. John bares some responsibility for his choices and I think he himself would agree. Yoko may have been wrong in introducing him to a dangerous drug, but John chose to take it.

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And even worse the fact that Yoko relapsed in the late 70's while having a little son, she even hadn't to take care of, what excuse you have for this behaviour now ? She was for sure a "grown and mature woman" then, wasn't she ? Of course, that's not that bad as having a "boring" wife, like Cyn...
Um, what? I never made any excuses for Yoko's choices. I just explained the culture that surrounded people at that time. I also emphasized the fact that Yoko doesn't bare 100% responsibility either. I mean, it wasn't the best thing to participate in the initiation of something that would become an addiction, especially of a person as dependent as John could be. I'm sure Yoko herself has many regrets, but honestly...she didn't stop John from coming clean and she certainly seemed to encourage him towards a productive end so I doubt her intentions were to hold him under some drugged-up trance so he'd follow all her commandments.

And really, Yoko herself admitted that she relapsed and she was struggling. But she didn't blame anyone for it and she DID get help. Otherwise, Sean would have turned out to be a mess and we can all see what a lovely, sweet, talented individual he turned out to be. Yoko had a part in that.


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I don't even dare to think how you would slam over Cyn, if he had taken with her heroin. But Cyn (and also May) desperately tried to prevent John from taking drugs and Yoko did just the opposite and that's why I put the blame on her. This horrific experience as you say, wasn't necessary at all and I'm sure it left in John some physical and psychic scars, so it just makes me angry when Yoko-fans just "downplay" this hard period in John's life in which he could have died like other rockstars then.

Snoopy
Ok, maybe you're right. I'd probably be hard on Cyn if she was doing heroin, sure. But you do realize Yoko Ono wasn't the first person to turn John on to drugs, right? He was doing them way before he met her. And you seem to think she should take full responsibility for his drug use. I am just...

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Old Feb 11, 2013, 02:50 PM   #30
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Just because poets and writers did heroin doesn't mean it's ok for John & Yoko to take it.If the writers jumped off a bridge John & Yoko should've to?
You're using a circle argument. First you say that because they were intellectuals John and Yoko should not have taken drugs and now you say just because intellectuals took drugs John and Yoko shouldn't. Truth is, being an intellectual had nothing to do with it. YOU were the one that said it did. You said being one should have influenced their choice. I simply related the facts. What do you want us to say? That John and Yoko never took drugs? We can't change history even for you!

Look, John Lennon was a drug addict. This lasted for years. It started before he met Yoko. He also struggled with his alcohol use. This too started before he met Yoko. During his marriage to Yoko he quit drugs and dried up. That's the story. Like it or not.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 03:06 PM   #31
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You're using a circle argument. First you say that because they were intellectuals John and Yoko should not have taken drugs and now you say just because intellectuals took drugs John and Yoko shouldn't. Truth is, being an intellectual had nothing to do with it. YOU were the one that said it did. You said being one should have influenced their choice. I simply related the facts. What do you want us to say? That John and Yoko never took drugs? We can't change history even for you!

Look, John Lennon was a drug addict. This lasted for years. It started before he met Yoko. He also struggled with his alcohol use. This too started before he met Yoko. During his marriage to Yoko he quit drugs and dried up. That's the story. Like it or not.
No sh*t sherlock we all knew he took drugs!
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 03:20 PM   #32
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After Sean was born John thankfully quit drinking and doing drugs.Yoko wasn't so lucky.Thats why she sent John & Sean to bermuda for 3 weeks.To get off heroin.Somebody had to be sober to raise Sean.After John died she had to finally face the music and get clean for Sean,cause their was no one else.If John wasn't killed she would've never of quit.That's IMO.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 03:50 PM   #33
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If John wasn't killed she would've never of quit.That's IMO.
I hope for her health and for John and Sean's sake that wouldn't be so.
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Old Feb 11, 2013, 03:56 PM   #34
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No sh*t sherlock we all knew he took drugs!
I thought so too but, from the post I replied to, it seems that some don't! Or won't accept that he did. Why else argue about it? Facts are facts.
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Old Feb 13, 2013, 06:12 AM   #35
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Post Here we go again...

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So you're implying that John doesn't need to take responsibility for his stupid choices? People gripe to no end of him neglecting his son during this time, so does all the above apply to that as well? No. John bares some responsibility for his choices and I think he himself would agree. Yoko may have been wrong in introducing him to a dangerous drug, but John chose to take it.
Of course, it was also the responsibility of John to take hard drugs, but that doesn't make the role of Yoko better in this matter, does it ?

Oh, "Yoko may have been wrong in introducing him to a dangerous drug" How does that sound.... that's so typicial for you Yoko-fans: Always and always "minimising" every false step of Yoko, no matter how big it was

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Old Feb 16, 2013, 09:15 AM   #36
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Snoopy, I was not diminishing Yoko's role. I probably should have selected a different modal auxiliary verb than 'may' because you didn't quite understand what I meant. I was simply placing emphasis on John's responsibility. Ultimately, he bares more in the matter. That is my opinion.

And now I'm labeled a "Yoko fan" because I disagree with you? Hey, bring it. I can't lie. Many of her songs rock my life.

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