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Old Jul 19, 2001, 09:53 PM   #41
Lucy
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Default Re: Lennon in America

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Harbidge:
I do have a book by him called 'The Beatles - A Celebration'
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Harb I know you said that you don't usually read the books but look at the piccys, but have you ever seen a book with so many mistakes in it as this one? I have it too because it only cost me $10 a few years back. It is just so totally full of mis-information and typos it is incredible.....for example John died on his birthday don't you know?? And the press conference scene from AHDN was actually the one they gave in America (or so he would have us believe)...he has very excitedly re-printed the transcript of the conference he says was given at the airport and it is actually taken (incorrectly) from the script.
What is this guy on? How dare he call himself a fan and how dare he be allowed to publish books on The Beatles that might actually change the way people feel about them!!!!!!!!!

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Old Jul 20, 2001, 05:29 AM   #42
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Default Re: Lennon in America

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By beatlemethisbeatlemethat:
You can read what he wrote here: http://guestbooks.netservices.gr/rea...GimmeSomeTruth

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

GG is a 1 watt light bulb...


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Old Jul 20, 2001, 05:41 AM   #43
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Default Re: Lennon in America

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Lucy:
It is just so totally full of mis-information and typos it is incredible.....for example John died on his birthday don't you know?? And the press conference scene from AHDN was actually the one they gave in America (or so he would have us believe)...he has very excitedly re-printed the transcript of the conference he says was given at the airport and it is actually taken (incorrectly) from the script. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The mind boggles....
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>
What is this guy on? How dare he call himself a fan and how dare he be allowed to publish books on The Beatles that might actually change the way people feel about them!!!!!!!!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wonder just what he ingests as well..
The sad thing for a long time he was respected unlike Goldman.

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[This Message Has Been Edited By Tim On July 20, 2001 05:44 AM]
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Old Jul 20, 2001, 09:18 AM   #44
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Default Re: Lennon in America

I have said he is a persona non grata among the Beatle literati. He has the imprint of a Beatle boot on his keaster (sp) and a flaming pie in his face, I am told.

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Old Jul 21, 2001, 05:55 AM   #45
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Default Re: Lennon in America

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Lucy:
How dare he call himself a fan and how dare he be allowed to publish books on The Beatles that might actually change the way people feel about them!!!!!!!!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry, Lucy, but changing our minds about how we see something is precisely the reason all books are written. Even a story-teller's aim is to get us to change our opinion about fiction... they want us to like it.

I went to "Gimme Some Truth", and I left with a very sour taste in my mouth. I simply cannot condone a page that wishes to stop the publication of a tome because the page-writers don't agree with the subject matter, or the way it is printed. If I've said it once, I've said it a dozen times just here at Beatlelinks... if you don't like it, don't read it.

I also got a very strong picture of folks who still want to idealize John and his life. John would NOT have approved of this blatant whitewashing of his life. His hard-line stance against religion and heroes, as evidenced in his song "God" and in "Gimme Some Truth" was based very firmly in the fact that you have to take the rose-coloured glasses off sometime. You have to learn how to take your vitamins without the sugar added to it. You have to learn how to read both sides of the coin, not just the one that's pretty.

You have to accept John for the man he was... not the man you want him to be.



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Old Jul 21, 2001, 06:08 AM   #46
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Default Re: Lennon in America

I agree with you, Sleepy! It's not healthy to deify John (or anyone else, for that matter). But I think what a lot of people are complaining about here are delibrate attempts to go to the opposite extreme and muckrake John as much as possible, especially since he's not around to sue -- and let's face it, dirt sells, unfortunately. This leaves those of us who want to understand the REAL John unsure of where to go for accurate, objective information. In the end, maybe we have to let Shakespeare's words summarize John: "He was a man, take him for all in all, I shall not look upon his like again."



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Old Jul 21, 2001, 07:17 AM   #47
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Default Re: Lennon in America

Well, libel, if it can be proven, is illegal, and since it is, I hold that it should be punishable. I don't think GG meant anything libellous, though, I think he was trying his hardest to present a view of John that most Beatle fans simply ignore. Yeah, he made some errors, but then I have yet to find a book that some other well-respected book or author doesn't jive on some point or points.

There are some out there, for instance, who will only accept as gospel the written words of John himself: but John was a human being with an imperfect memory, who didn't always consult written records before opening his mouth. Come to think of it, when I'm in a discussion, I don't either. But there you go... Just because he is John, and he said "I did thus and so on such and such date" does NOT mean that it is a fact, and anyone who blithely ignores his very fallible humanity in the matter of memory simply walks around with blinders on.

What I'm trying to say is this: for decades, the only printed matter about the Beatles you could find were heavily whitewashed, but nobody seems to be able to produce official, signed, notarized documents proving much of their "facts"... So, I'm not into automatically believing that because 6 different people quote the same source means that their "facts" are THE facts I'm looking for.

Most of GG's errors seem to fall in this category... They don't jive with what I've read elsewhere, but that doesn't necessarily make them automatically wrong.


There's another point I want to make here. We tend to go around feeling pretty smug about ourselves, but we would shudder in horror if someone we want to impress or someone we respect very highly should happen to run into the schmuck who picked the wrong day to cross our paths. Should our highly valued friend happen to mention meeting that schmuck, we hasten to assure our friend that a)schmuck is a Schmuck with a capital S; b)we were having a veeerrryyy bad day; and/or c)nobody else we know pays any attention whatsoever to anything said schmuck might have said.

We are who we are, not just to those who love and value us, but to each and every individual whose lives we touch, for any reason, at any time, from 1 second to our entire life-spans. Each statement we make reflects something about ourselves to someone, and that includes the statements we made after waking up late for work, finding a flat tire on our only car, discovering the gas tank has mysteriously run dry, and scootching into work just in time to leave that once-a-year impression on the Big Boss... Our reactions to the bad things that happen to us are as much a part of who we are as our reactions to anything else. Our "bad" actions and faults are as much a part of us as the image we want to present to everyone else, as much as the self-image we keep of ourselves. Deny it all we want to, we are human, imperfect, and faulty. No amount of whitewash will erase the sour feelings we left behind because Schmuck made a nasty comment about or to us on our worst day of our life.

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Old Jul 21, 2001, 09:56 AM   #48
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Default Re: Lennon in America

What said.

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Old Jul 21, 2001, 11:22 AM   #49
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Default Re: Lennon in America

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SF4-EVER:
I agree with you, Sleepy! It's not healthy to deify John (or anyone else, for that matter). But I think what a lot of people are complaining about here are delibrate attempts to go to the opposite extreme and muckrake John as much as possible, especially since he's not around to sue -- and let's face it, dirt sells, unfortunately. This leaves those of us who want to understand the REAL John unsure of where to go for accurate, objective information. In the end, maybe we have to let Shakespeare's words summarize John: "He was a man, take him for all in all, I shall not look upon his like again."

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well put and I agree 100%! John was a man, a good man but he was not a deity. John had his share of strengths and weaknesses and his music certainly provided enlightening insights into his philosophies. "Working Class Hero," "God," "Mother," "Julia" and "Woman is the N***** of the World," "Beautiful Boy" are just the tip of the iceberg. Idealizing ANYbody is unhealthy and John was always pushing people to THINK!

Robert Kennedy said it well. "All things are to be called into question. There are no limits set on thought." Viktor Frankl also applies here -- "the truth is found when man is free to pursue it."



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Old Jul 22, 2001, 07:15 PM   #50
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Default Re: Lennon in America

This discussion of the deification of John Lennon made me think of a similar discussion on one of my other newsgroups. I will repeat below the post I made there, because I think it's relevant here...the discussion started when one fellow (the Lewis mentioned below) talked about other groups he'd seen where people have such a skewed view of John that they have likened him to Gandhi! That kind of thing sticks in my craw...and you'd be surprised how many people believe that whitewashed, sanitized version of what John really was...it's evident from the sheer number of "Martin Luther Lennon" stories I get as submissions to my 'zine -- stories that glorify John like some kind of sainted martyr of peace and love and don't take into consideration a blessed thing that smacks of reality...

Anyway, see below for something I've said on the subject before and see what you think...

************

...However, comparing John to Gandhi? (I don't think YOU'RE doing that, btw, Lewis...you are just pointing out that you've seen these comparisons made. And that's absolutely valid -- I know that people make those comparisons all the time.)

I love John, I really do, I think he was a wonderful person. It still hurts, almost 21 years later, to think that he's gone and to think about the way he died. I watched the VH1 Behind the Music on him again yesterday and I still cry, no matter how many times I watch it. But -- he was no saint, he was no martyr, and there was a LOT more to him than this "man of peace and love" that a lot of people seem to think he was. That was only one dimension of a very complex man...and while I do think he was probably closer to that kind of person at the end of his life, for the vast majority of his 40 years on this planet, he was NOT all sweetness and light, and in fact he was an angry and often cruel and hostile person. Comparing John Lennon to Gandhi (or Martin Luther King, or anyone of that nature -- no matter what he might have said, John was NOT "more popular than Jesus!") is just ridiculous...and I honestly believe that John himself would not like the pedestal some people have placed him upon...

If some of you think this is blasphemous, well...I don't mean any disrespect to John by saying this, it's just something that burns me up. People have to GET REAL when it comes to John Lennon -- he was definitely someone who believed in peace, but he was no Gandhi. (And somehow, I cannot see John being willing to give up his creature comforts to go back and live in the slums of Liverpool the way Gandhi gave his up and went back to live in India among the poor...sorry...)

I've probably already put my foot in it with this...no doubt this is going to cause serious debate and get a lot of people mad at me, but I get completely CRAZED when I see John deified like this! So if I've bothered anyone with these comments, let me apologize here...this is only my opinion...


*************

Interestingly, a lot of people on that board DIDN'T think I was being blasphemous...you should've heard my sigh of relief! Unfortunately, there are ALWAYS gonna be people who deify John. It's sad, really, because there was so much more to John than the myth...the legend has become bigger than the life, which is a pity, because the life was so much more interesting and complex than the legend would have you believe.
But I definitely agree with what Sleepy and Sandra and a bunch of others have said here, and just wanted to stick my two cents in!




------------------
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[This Message Has Been Edited By HMVNipper On July 22, 2001 07:20 PM]
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Old Jul 22, 2001, 09:13 PM   #51
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Default Re: Lennon in America

I thought that was an EXCELLENT column. I have a confession: I can never watch any footage about John's untimely death in 1980 with dry eyes

John was a wonderful, unique and very distinct individual. He was a man, not a deity. He had his share of challenges as well as talents. In fact, there is no doubt that John was gifted and his flair for natural expression is something we treasure today.

In 1980 we did not lose a deity. We lost a good man who wanted to change the world (and did).

Thanks for posting the article! It was very touching.

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Then we will remember things we said today. Yeah.
-- Beatles, 1964

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Old Jul 25, 2001, 07:54 PM   #52
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Default Re: Lennon in America

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SleepyHead:
I'm sorry, Lucy, but changing our minds about how we see something is precisely the reason all books are written. Even a story-teller's aim is to get us to change our opinion about fiction... they want us to like it.

I went to "Gimme Some Truth", and I left with a very sour taste in my mouth. I simply cannot condone a page that wishes to stop the publication of a tome because the page-writers don't agree with the subject matter, or the way it is printed. If I've said it once, I've said it a dozen times just here at Beatlelinks... if you don't like it, don't read it.

I also got a very strong picture of folks who still want to idealize John and his life. John would NOT have approved of this blatant whitewashing of his life. His hard-line stance against religion and heroes, as evidenced in his song "God" and in "Gimme Some Truth" was based very firmly in the fact that you have to take the rose-coloured glasses off sometime. You have to learn how to take your vitamins without the sugar added to it. You have to learn how to read both sides of the coin, not just the one that's pretty.

You have to accept John for the man he was... not the man you want him to be.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That site was created by a friend of mine and I helped out with it by designing it. We both don't idealize John. I thought John was cool and still do. The page was opened to express opinions and outrage over GG's book. I know that John wasn't perfect. Nobody is perfect. I think it's wrong for people to write information that they claim is true about a person. The fact that John is not alive to argue his case makes it even sadder. It's just like tabloids. I can't believe people can even read those things. They take one bit of truth or just a picture and make an entire article filled with lies.
I also feel that whatever happens in anybody's private life, whether they are famous or not, should stay private. Why should we know everything about a person? Who cares if John did this or if Paul did that. I don't. Their music is what matters to me.

The page is closed down now. I wanted to delete it and start a tribute page for John and some other people Although I don't agree with GG's views, I thought that there is enough negativity in this world so why dwell on something in the past.


Beatlebang, I agree with you on this <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>In 1980 we did not lose a deity. We lost a good man who wanted to change the world (and did).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I admire anyone who wants to make the world a better place. Look pass the bad, and find the good in people. You can do that, without losing touch with reality. It's quite easy


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//0-0\\//0-0\\//0-0\\
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Old Jul 25, 2001, 09:24 PM   #53
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Default Re: Lennon in America

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By beatlemethisbeatlemethat:
I admire anyone who wants to make the world a better place. Look pass the bad, and find the good in people. You can do that, without losing touch with reality. It's quite easy <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And without money, and without using any guns. Totally agree with that, Stefanie. That is the thing that I admire about John. That and his music. If he had good and bad things... well we all have. Who cares to know everything about him? Who cares about inventing or making exagerations about his life? Who wants to read things like those? Well, not me. And "That Is All"



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Old Jul 25, 2001, 09:32 PM   #54
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Default Re: Lennon in America

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By darkhorse:
Quote:
Originally Posted By beatlemethisbeatlemethat:
I admire anyone who wants to make the world a better place. Look pass the bad, and find the good in people. You can do that, without losing touch with reality. It's quite easy <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And without money, and without using any guns. Totally agree with that, Stefanie. That is the thing that I admire about John. That and his music. If he had good and bad things... well we all have. Who cares to know everything about him? Who cares about inventing or making exagerations about his life? Who wants to read things like those? Well, not me. And "That Is All"
Exactly!

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//0-0\\//0-0\\//0-0\\
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Old Jul 25, 2001, 10:05 PM   #55
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Default Re: Lennon in America

John did not compromise his standards and he remained true to his core self. I really respect that. That is largely why John is my favorite Beatle. He was original and unique and he accepted himself. That takes courage.

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-- Beatles, 1964

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Old Jul 25, 2001, 10:16 PM   #56
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Default Re: Lennon in America

I like the fact that he was open and honest. Honesty is a good trait to have. I like when people tell it like it is. I think that's why John was so controversial.

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//0-0\\//0-0\\//0-0\\
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Old Jul 25, 2001, 10:26 PM   #57
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Default Re: Lennon in America

My problem with John on the politics is he was too much a pawn for guys like Hoffman and Rubin.


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Old Mar 19, 2002, 07:58 PM   #58
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Default Re: Lennon in America

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Nowhere Man:
The only freak in this matter, really, is Mr Giuliano himself. Have you seen his pic on the back cover of any of the Beatles 'Inside Interviews' CD's? I swear he's Marilyn Manson's father. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL!!! Yes, I'd have to agree with you there. I bought a Beatles DVD (before I realized it was by our favorite little man), and half of the movie is him talking...psycho!

-lennon4


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Old Mar 20, 2002, 10:09 AM   #59
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Default Re: Lennon in America

Oh, I do hope I never do (or never have) offend(ed) someone so badly in the few seconds I may interact with them as to cause that someone who doesn't know me to liken me to a monster for any and all to hear.

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Old Mar 21, 2002, 02:58 PM   #60
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Guys I must confess:
I have ol' Geoffrey's book Things We Said Today: Conversation with the Beatles, but in my defense, it is interviews with people, most of them not by Giuliano.

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