BeatleLinks LogoNav Panel New Sites Cool Sites Top Rated Fab Forum Add A Site Link To Us Revolution Radio New Products



Go Back   BeatleLinks Fab Forum > Beatles Forums > Paperback Writer


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old May 03, 2004, 04:06 PM   #61
SleepyHead
Sun King
 
SleepyHead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 11, 2000
Location: Louisiana, USA
Posts: 9,705

Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

[ QUOTE ]
peacenyc2004 Posted:
I am sorry to say this to you Sleepy, you appear to be projecting again: we have scared Kim and other writers spitless? I doubt it!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm repeating what my email tells me from other members. I certainly do not know anyone here well enough to know whether or not they still have spit.

[ QUOTE ]
Slandering Jim McC turned off quite a few people on this forum and there is reason for that. It was taking imagination to an extreme, and veering far from reality. Whether her writing gains a small audience or a large audience depends on her talents. That its particular scope does not appeal to some or that some see a red flag with placing a dead person in situations they did not experience in reality is something others have a right to point out. As long as constructive criticism is mindfully shared, it is valid.

[/ QUOTE ]

She was referring to one day very shortly after the death of Mary, and you have absolutely no way of knowing what the reality was then. It is not detailed nor even mentioned in anything but vague terms other than the statement that the friends and relatives of Jim had to help him overcome his "desire to join" Mary in the grave.

[ QUOTE ]
Your quote: "There is indeed reason to believe that for some duration of time, he (Jim) was violent - at least in thought, and certainly towards himself." This is projection. There is no proof of this, in any publication.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true:

[ QUOTE ]
The boys went to stay with Jim's brother Joe and his wife Joan, while friends and relatives tried to calm their distraught father, whose first thought was to join his wife.
Paul McCartney: Many Years From Now, p.20

[/ QUOTE ]


Wishing oneself dead is a suicidal thought, and by definition is violent. Not only is it a violent thought towards oneself, but since by attrition carrying out any actions that would result in such will bring pain and heartache to anyone who cares for the distraught person, it also implies a violence towards those around him.

[ QUOTE ]
For someone who "does not care a whit" you appear to have given Jim McCartney and how he behaved after a personal loss some energy and thought. Why not take Paul and Mike McC at their words about how things unfolded?

From what I understand this forum is called" Paperback Writer's" and in part it is about writing Beatles Fiction and books written on the Beatles. I feel perplexed that your or anyone would be defensive about a topic such as writing Beatles fiction. Instead of reacting, we all must listen to what people who write fiction well are saying; if we disagree which is our right, then answer mindfully ~ not with sarcasm and superiority. Unmindful tone does not make anyone on a chat room right. I am new to this board, and given you are a moderator, you have an example to set in how people on this board may be spoken to--I take offence to your calling me "dear" for one.
It was uncalled for.

And on that note, I am off to enjoy the rest of my evening. Best to all.

[/ QUOTE ]

So sorry I called you "dear" - in my neck of the woods it is considered a politeness, especially when the gender is unknown. "Ma'am" and "sir" are also politenesses that convey a formal address, and as we are all forum members, I chose the less formal address.

I'm bowing out of this - on the basis of 2 (count 'em - two) short pages of text, Kim has been accused of all manner of illegalities without one shred of decent proof. If you didn't like the first page well enough to read the second, then that's all you can with any fairness claim - "I didn't like it well enough to keep reading." If you made it through to the second page and still didn't care for it, the only viable reaction would have been - "I don't think I like where this is going, so I probably won't read any more additions." That is it.

She did not one thing illegal, because slander, defamation and libel exist legally only if the person being so detracted is alive to be harmed by it. In the instances (such as Australia) where one can perhaps expect a lawsuit by the heirs, the heirs must prove that the line or statement would cause normal, rational people to have a worse opinion of the person who was written about than they had before. Since I presume you are all at least as normal and rational as myself, I have to assume that by your reactions you would certainly not change your opinion of Jim McCartney in any way.

I have tried every way from Sunday to convice you all to lay off to see where she was going with her story - it wasn't printed here, but pieces of it were grossly exaggerated to the point of being unrecognizable. I have tried to correct those over-statements, but to no avail. Not one of you seems willing to admit that just because you don't like something doesn't necessarily mean it is invalid. You cannot claim to know what Jim would have or did do immediately after Mary's death, because absolutely nobody has a comment about that other than to say that Jim was so distraught that he wanted to die, and he sent the boys to his brother's home. I have given several examples of different people of different personalities who have each demonstrated one thing clearly - in the wake of a deep personal grief, one's character is NOT as it is normally. In my opinion, that validates almost any interpretation of the period of grief immediately after Mary's death, whether I like it or not. It even validates the apparent opinion of those who've responded in this topic that Jim McCartney was a plaster saint, precisely for the reason that all we have is opinion and conjecture to go on.
SleepyHead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 03, 2004, 04:54 PM   #62
peacenyc2004
Apple Scruff
 
peacenyc2004's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 16, 2003
Location: NY, NY
Posts: 105
Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

I am resolved in that I believe what Paul and Mike McCartney have said about this topic in dozens of books and publications, and I too will stop conversing on this topic. Paul and Mike have spoken eloquently about what they experienced.

You have no way of knowing Jim McCartney and his reactions to what was a sad situation also. You are speculating & then getting intense when anyone points that out.

Being sad & being depressed over a trauma of losing a spouse, and being violent and acting out against one's children do not necessarily go together. And from all accounts it did not go together in the McCartney Family.

This is not "vague" information as you state -- it is well documented in several books with which Paul McCartney participated. And none of us has ever said Mr. McC was a plaster saint, not even close, so please do not project such a statement on to me personally.

Using "dear" in a sarcastic way is not polite. It is presumptuous to use unless one is an intimate or has a previous friendly rapport established.

Be mindful of how you come across as a Moderator and of your tone to forum participants. Moderators are supposed to set down tone and standards from what I understand? Can you allow others to disagree and to share what they may know without it being a threat? It all adds up to lessons we are sharing with one another.

Best to all and so sorry you had to read any of this. What began as an invigorating conversation about Beatles Fiction and what makes for well written Beatles fiction became a foundation for sharing of projections and a series of dismissive comments on the art of research and doing one's homework when composing Beatles Fiction. I let this get out of control; I should have simply ignored Sleepy's posts as my first instinct said. As a fan of good Beatles fiction and having worked in publishing for many years, I thought I had something valid to say.

To me, the best Beatles fiction writers are also "teachers" - and there are simple writing rules which apply to any genre of writing: evoking an authentic spirit of an individual, for starters. I also believe in my heart that constructive criticism, when offered in a mindful way, is a caring gesture.

For an excellent source on Paul McCartney and the McCartney Family I suggest reading Hunter Davie's bio, THE BEATLES, and Barry Miles bio of Paul, both written with Paul's full cooperation. Listen to what the man says, meaning, Paul. He has been forthcoming on the sensitive topic of his Father and Mother on a few occasions. Thanks all for your collective patience.
peacenyc2004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 05, 2004, 04:25 AM   #63
cokate
Wild Honey Pie
 
cokate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 15, 2003
Location: That Georgia's always on my mind
Posts: 620
Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

While I do agree with what some of you have said about projecting an abusive image on Jim McCartney, Kim is entitled to write whatever she pleases, without having others want her to be sorry for it. Personally, I like Paul in Pain fictions, and "Stage Fright" was pretty good. But putting aside personal preferences, she was writing FICTION. Fiction, by definition, is...
Fiction: 1. a class of literature comprising works of IMAGINATIVE narration, esp. in prose form.
2. something INVENTED or IMAGINED; a MADE-UP story.
That means it's fake, and everyone knows it.
Some of you are saying that it's the fact that she's making up histories and personalities for people that she never knew. Isn't that the point of fiction? There are people with the last names of Capulet and Montague. These people don't know each other, have nothing in common, but don't kill each other in the streets. They're perfectly normal people. Based on what I've read here, I can assume that they would be offended by the plot of "Romeo and Juliet." But does anyone point this out? No, "Romeo and Juliet" is too well-known and loved for people to care. But it is the same idea. And so far as stretching imagination to a gross proportion, what do you say to Harry Potter? You may not like it, and you may think it's immoral, but you can't very well say it's a bad series that offends most people. It may not interest you, but it HAS interested many, and it's sold well enough to gain a certain amount of respect. I realize that Kim's stories aren't as well known, but I don't think it's fair to change one's opinions or criticisms based on a book or story's popularity. If you don't like it, you don't like it and that is your right, but opinions should be voiced based on what you think of the subject being discussed; not by how many other people like it.
That being said, I don't know that I'll be coming back. Kim, I didn't see a disclaimer on your page. There may be one that I missed, but if there isn't, it would probably be a good idea to write one. If there already is one, It might help to put it in a more obvious place. Just a suggestion; that should clear up some confusion as to whether the story's real or not.
--kate
cokate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 05, 2004, 10:35 AM   #64
Dr. Dreamer
Mr. Moonlight
 
Dr. Dreamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 11, 2002
Location: Here & Now
Posts: 847

Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

Kim-
You have the workings of a very noble story studying the psychology of the dynamics of grief as it plays out in the family's loss of the maternal influence.

Cokate-
I think the story IS worth the telling without using the REAL people associated with or related to the REAL Beatles themselves. Your mention of fiction by definition is absolutely true HOWEVER, you mentioned PURE fiction (Harry Potter). As for the centuries old Shakespeare's "Romeo and Juliet", I am not 100% sure but I think THEY are fictional too. That's the trouble with fiction about REAL people and those who STILL have LIVING relations. We all know too much for our own good about these folks so there STILL remains a certain responsibility and respect in representing these REAL people.
We are entitled to our opinions and they are only worth the importance others assign them. Without opinions and the difference there of, what impetus would there be for growth of the self or motivation to even interract with one anohter? (as we are ALL so eloquently doing here.)
Cheers
Dr. Dreamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 05, 2004, 11:46 AM   #65
HMVNipper
Sun King
 
HMVNipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 26, 2001
Location: New York City, USA
Posts: 11,672

Send a message via AIM to HMVNipper
Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

Kate, while your personal opinions are certainly valid, I can tell you that some of the things you state are absolutely incorrect from a legal standpoint.

Regarding Romeo and Juliet, it was written many centuries ago, not about real families (though there possibly are families by those names that do exist), and at a time when laws about defamation as we know them now did not exist. Additionally, Shakespeare's works are in the public domain -- there are no heirs, there's no one to sue if your name happens to be Montague and you're cheesed off! Shakespeare was known for taking real stories and fictionalizing them, however, there's a difference between using real stories and putting fictional names on the characters involved (e.g., Dragnet's "the names have been changed to protect the innocent" statement, for example) and fictionalizing a real person's personality and sticking that person's name on the character. THAT is grounds for defamation.

Let me also tell you that some authors are (or have been) so completely thorough in their research in order not to stick the name of a real person on a fictional character that they have gone to great lengths to be sure. Margaret Mitchell, author of "Gone With The Wind," was absolutely paranoid about accidentally sticking a real person's name on a fictional character -- so much so that she researched even the most minor of characters' potential names before settling on them. And, despite all of this, when "GWTW" came out (the book, I mean, not the film), there was a prominent person (a politician, I believe) whose last name was the same as a very minor character in the novel, and who threatened to sue Ms. Mitchell and her publisher for defamation because that character was described as "poor white trash." So sometimes even the most meticulous research does not protect you.

In Kim's case, yes, she is definitely entitled to write what she wants. The issue here, and the thing that all you dissenters seem to be choosing not to see, is that she's talking about real people whose lives are DOCUMENTED, in some cases meticulously. You CANNOT defame someone's character by making your fictional version of that person veer so far from what is KNOWN (e.g., making Jim McCartney a child-beater) and think you can get away with it with impunity. It's one thing to have one episode in a story where said person hauls off and pops his kid one in the face, and quite another if the story portrays him as endlessly abusive and alcoholic if that was NOT TRUE.

Disclaimers, as I have stated above, are not enough to protect a writer from trouble. You can put all the disclaimers you want all over your work, but if someone wants to find something offensive or copyright infringing or otherwise questionable, all the disclaimers in the world are not going to protect you. You can get in a lot of trouble if you defame someone's character and it does not come under the legal definition of "parody and satire." Last time I checked, calling someone who was NOT a child-beating alcoholic by that description did not fall under "parody and satire," but rather, "defamation of character."

As for Harry Potter, and other FICTIONAL properties, they can be as offensive as all get out, but no one can sue you for defamation because YOU CREATED THE CHARACTERS. They aren't real people, they aren't fictional characters with real people's names hung on them, and they are totally made up for the purposes of the story. Sure, there are real people named Harry Potter in the world, but unless at least one of them is a boy wizard whose parents were murdered by Lord Voldemort and who goes to Hogwarts, those real people can't sue for defamation -- they would get laughed out of court if they tried to say "well, people are confusing ME with Ms. Rowling's character!" It's the defamatory alteration of the character of a REAL PERSON that is the problem! To say that Jim McCartney, father of Paul of the Beatles, widower of Mary, Liverpool cotton salesman, was an alcoholic and a child beater, even for purposes of fiction, is JUST NOT ALLOWED BY LAW. The implication that Kim's fiction could be taken seriously by people is what is the issue here -- Jim was a real person, his sons are real people, and his character has been documented in many, many books.

As for other fictional properties, you can get in even more trouble if you write fanfic about that! Those characters, or Star Trek, or Xena, or Buffy, or any number of fictional entities, are owned by the people who hold their copyrights. It's not legal to infringe upon copyright like that, and if you write a Harry Potter fanfic, for instance, JK Rowling, Scholastic and/or Warner Brothers (all of whom have some stake in the copyrights) can sue the pants off you, or at the very least shut down any site that contains said material. Paramount, which owns Star Trek, has done just that REPEATEDLY -- shut down fansites that contained all manner of "disclaimers" -- and continue to monitor the Internet for things they feel are infringment.

That said, anyone is entitled to write any kind of fanfic they want to. But I urge Beatles fanfic writers to consider that these were and are REAL PEOPLE with feelings and families -- and aside from that, they also have lots of money and high-powered attorneys at their beck and call. No matter if it won't necessarily hold up in a court of law, if Paul McCartney is insulted by the way his father is portrayed in a story like Kim's, he's gonna sic his lawyers on you and at the very least, shut you down!

Sorry to disagree with you, Kate, but I think some clarification was necessary to correct some misconceptions.

Oh, and for the record, this has been a very interesting discussion, I think, and not at all contentious, despite what other people might think.
HMVNipper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 05, 2004, 04:50 PM   #66
JDanRyan
Wild Honey Pie
 
JDanRyan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 24, 2002
Location: New York City, USA
Posts: 601

Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

As it looks like this topic is starting to turn into yeah-you-can/uh-uh/uh-HUH as far as legal matters go, it's probably time for someone (particularly a legal librarian/researcher) to reach for some reference works here, in a somewhat long post (go get some coffee):

Probably the best quick and dirty source to go to is the libel and slander FAQ on Free Advice. Some of the more pertinent points on that page that have come up in this discussion are quoted here for ease of reference:

WHAT IS "DEFAMATION"?
Defamation, sometimes called "defamation of character", is spoken or written words that falsely and negatively reflect on a living person's reputation.

If a person or the news media says or writes something about you that is understood to lower your reputation, or that keeps people from associating with you, defamation has occurred. Slander and libel are two forms of defamation.

WHAT IS "LIBEL"?
Libel is a written defamation. Generally, radio and television broadcasts that are defamatory are considered to be libel, rather than slander.

CAN I SUE SOMEONE WHO SAYS OR WRITES SOMETHING DEFAMATORY ABOUT ME?
In order to prove defamation, you have to be able to prove that what was said or written about you was false. If the information is true, or if you consented to publication of the material, you will not have a case. However, you may bring an defamatory action if the comments are so reprehensible and false that they effect your reputation in the community or cast aspersions on you.

CAN LIBEL SUITS BE BROUGHT BY A PUBLIC FIGURE?
These suits are a bit dicer for the public figure.

A public figure may be an elected or appointed (a politician) or someone who has stepped into a public controversy (e.g., movie stars and TV stars, star athletes). Public figures have a "harder road to toll" than the average person since they must prove that the party defaming them knew the statements were false, made them with actual malice, or was negligent in saying or writing them. Proving these elements makes the chance of a successful lawsuit slim.

WHAT DAMAGES ARE AVAILABLE FOR SLANDER OR LIBEL?
If you have been defamed you may seek both actual damages, to recover the harm that you have suffered, and punitive damages to punish the person who made the remark (and serve as an example to deter others).

If the defamation improperly accused you of a crime or reflected on your profession, the Court or jury can assess the damages. For other types of defamation you must prove some actual damage to be able to recover.

WHAT HAPPENS IF SOMEONE SLANDERS OR LIBELS SOMEONE WHO IS DEAD?
While it may be reprehensible to say false things about someone who has died, in most states it is not legally actionable. No action can be taken on behalf of a dead person.

WHAT ARE THE DEFENSES TO A LIBEL CLAIM?
There are three main defenses to a libel claim (other than asserting that it never happened or that you were never involved):

The first is claiming, and proving, that the statement was privileged (and thus not public). Only certain professions (doctors, lawyers, psychologists), or individuals (chiefly your spouse) can maintain that privilege; and if any non-privileged third party was part of the communication, the privilege is broken. (Employees of a professional are only partially covered, to the extent that you needed to use them to contact the professional. Don't expect to tell your deepest, darkest secret to your attorney's secretary, and maintain that privilege.)

The second defense is claiming, and proving, that the statement is true, for "truth is an absolute defense".

The third defense is claiming, and proving, that the statement was an opinion, not an assertion of a fact. Since this last defense is only as good as the weakest or worst, but still reasonable, misinterpretation, it's not one you really want to rely on. There's a world of difference between saying "I think he's a crook," and "he's a crook". Especially if a third party might inadvertently leave out the first two words when passing your message on.


Now, on the basis of the above, applied here, there are a few things to note:

* The story in question might be interpreted as libel if so desired by Paul McCartney. With his reputation lowered and ability to associate hindered (he could claim), with words that can patently be deemed reprehensable and false, this legal test is met.

* While being a celebrity can make it difficult to prove a libel case, the facts as presented could be easily demonstrated to be false, making such claims before a court far easier to present.

* While the claim of Paul's father being an abuser cannot be contested by Jim McCartney, as indeed the dead cannot be libeled, the claim that Paul was an abused child could be contested. A story like this is safe from legal action only when all parties depicted are no longer with us.

* About the best defense that could be offered is that this is an opinion, or at least a work of art. Even if this defense is ultimately successful, it does not short-circuit the legal process of having to present a defense in court.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

OK, you probably are saying, "But this is FICTION here!" Unfortunately, this is not always proof against action, as this story in The Christian Science Montior discusses:

from the December 01, 2003 edition - http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1201/p11s02-usju.html

Texas court to rule: Can fiction be libel?
By John C. Ryan | Contributor to the Christian Science Monitor
Shortly after a Texas county judge had 13-year-old Christopher Beamon jailed for five days for writing a Halloween essay about the shooting of a teacher, the Dallas Observer parodied the news item with a fictional account of its own.

In a satirical piece, the same judge, Darlene Whitten, was portrayed jailing a 6-year-old girl for writing a book report on Maurice Sendak's children's classic "Where The Wild Things Are," said to contain "cannibalism, fanaticism, and disorderly conduct."

"We just thought the whole notion of jailing a student for doing his 'scary story' homework assignment was absurd, and thought satire was a good way to make our point," says Patrick Williams, the Observer's managing editor.

The piece, which was published in November, 1999, included made-up quotations from a variety of public figures, including county district attorney Bruce Isaacks and then-Governor George W. Bush.

But given Judge Whitten's actual detention of a 13-year-old two weeks earlier, the satire came close enough to reality to fool some readers.

The University of North Texas student newspaper reported it as news, as did a talk-show host at Dallas-Fort Worth radio station KRLD, and the resulting fallout has culminated in a case scheduled to be argued before the Texas state Supreme Court later this week.

At the heart of the case is the question of whether satire, a form of political speech defended as a First Amendment right, can be classified as libel if readers think it is the truth.

Both sides agree the stakes are high. If the Observer wins, "It's going be really easy to do a hatchet job on someone by calling it satire," says Michael Whitten, the attorney for Mr. Isaacks and his wife, Darlene Whitten. "No individual will be able to defend himself, or have any legal recourse."

Satire as free speech
But major media groups including the Association of American Publishers, the Motion Picture Association of America, and the Cartoon Network have filed a brief supporting the newspaper's case.

"An adverse decision at the Texas Supreme Court would have a chilling effect on the use of satire in the media," says James Hemphill, lead attorney for the Observer. "Even the specter of having to go to trial and incur the expense of defending political speech is enough to chill that speech."

When the Observer first ran its piece, Isaacks and Whitten were deluged by angry letters and even calls for their resignation. The two officials sued the paper for libel.

Both the trial court and the Texas Court of Appeals agreed with Isaacks' and Whitten's view that satire is in the eye of the beholder. "Satire is not protected under the First Amendment if it fails to make clear to its readers that it is not conveying actual facts," the appeals court wrote.

New Times, the Observer's parent company, appealed that ruling, and the Texas Supreme Court will hear the case on December 3.

Since 1980, the vast majority of libel cases have been dismissed before going to trial, according to the Media Law Resource Center.

Yet plaintiffs have won the majority of the libel cases that did make it to trial over the past two decades.

"Juries in Texas are frequently willing to hand big libel judgments down, particularly against big news organizations," says Jane Kirtley, professor of media ethics and law at the University of Minnesota.

Those who defend the Observer point out that the satire contained a number of unmistakably ridiculous statements. It describes Judge Whitten telling the fictional six-year-old defendant - dressed in a Pokémon T-shirt, handcuffs, and ankle shackles - "...it's time for us to stop treating kids like children."

Satire is a constitutionally protected form of political speech. "Under a lot of Supreme Court precedents, it's clear that people who hold public office have to be prepared to be lampooned, to be ridiculed," says Ms. Kirtley.

Heavy burden of proof
Public figures wishing to win damages for libel normally face the heavy burden of proving that defendants acted with reckless disregard for the truth.

The issues grow more difficult, however, where satire-by definition fictional, or false-is involved.

"The test isn't whether everybody got the joke," says Steve Suskin, attorney for New Times, a chain of 11 alternative weeklies. "It has to be, 'Was there an intention to pass fiction off as truth?'"

"It's all about context," argues Mr. Whitten. "The Observer is not a humor journal, they are a hard news investigative type publication. If this appeared in the Onion [the satirical newspaper], anyone would know it's not true." But the Observer has a different kind of reputation, he insists.

Mr. Williams, however, remains defiant. "Parody and satire as a form of political commentary have a long and noble and valuable tradition," he says. "We're going to continue that wherever we think appropriate."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So as not to bore everyone or crash the server, I offer the following links for addition in-depth information:

Discussion of Defamation on the Internet from FindLaw.com

Nolo.com explains Libel for Beginners in a Student-Friendly Setting

Nolo.com Discusses What Happens to ISPs in the Middle of Libel Claims

Words of Wisdom from the Writer's Guild of America on the Topic

Hopefully, the above will settle a few points and dispell some notions.
JDanRyan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 05, 2004, 07:41 PM   #67
cokate
Wild Honey Pie
 
cokate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 15, 2003
Location: That Georgia's always on my mind
Posts: 620
Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

Thanks, HMVNipper, for correcting me. I see where you are all coming from more clearly now. But I don't want to offend anyone, so I think I'll just say that I like Kim's story and leave it at that.
cokate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 05, 2004, 09:25 PM   #68
peacenyc2004
Apple Scruff
 
peacenyc2004's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 16, 2003
Location: NY, NY
Posts: 105
Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

I am deeply appreciative to JDRyan, HMVNipper et al for taking the necessary time to clarify what some of us have been trying to say, & with the legal research to back it up. This stuff is tricky, complicated, but still in no way should that deter talented writers from creating new Beatles fiction. There is no arguing with facts, and such well presented research. I have truly learned a lot from this discussion and I hope others have also, and it was also eye opening to learn how many individuals think that using the names of famous people or relatives of famous icons, while drastically changing their spirit and personality, is okay to do, and just a fair usage of imagination. We are privileged on PaperBack Writer to have many regarded Beatles fiction writers an editors in the chat room. It is like having a free creative writing class to attend, in my view!

Beatles fiction writing is like any good fiction writing: it should adhere to basic writing rules, while providing a basis for the imagination to run free -- and when it really "works" it will evoke the true spirit of The Beatles and Co. Great summary JDR! Fascinating to read. Best to all.
peacenyc2004 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 06, 2004, 07:06 AM   #69
Miss O'Dell
Dr. Robert
 
Miss O'Dell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 04, 2001
Location: Scarborough, UK
Posts: 1,141
Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

I agree with all the not defaming people stuff and all that, but I think, unless you are very unlucky or write something that is terrifically and prominantly offensive, libeless or defamatory,(More so than slash or Pain/comfort -Paul in Pain) then I think the chances are you won't be chased for copywrite or anything, unless you're making a profit off it, and most, the vast majority of fanfic writers don't. I think that simply because of the absolute libraries of fanfics on the net about subjects so diverse you couldn't imagine! From Backstreet Boys fanfic to winnie the pooh slash!


(BTW, Hello Angelina! FanFic Academic Extrodinaire! )
Miss O'Dell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 06, 2004, 07:32 AM   #70
HMVNipper
Sun King
 
HMVNipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 26, 2001
Location: New York City, USA
Posts: 11,672

Send a message via AIM to HMVNipper
Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

You'd be surprised, Lindsey, what copyright holders might go after -- here is some stuff excerpted from the web page of Diana Gabaldon, writer of the historical fiction/romance series "Outlander." (I'm a fan of hers and happen to know she discusses this issue on her website).

(And BTW, I'm technically violating her rules by posting what her web page says here, however, I AM honoring her stipulation that excerpts from her books not be posted elsewhere. The stuff in bold was bolded by her.)


http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~gatti/ga...opyrights.html

By the provisions of the Berne Convention (which is Interntional Law), and the US Copyright Laws, anything a person writes is automatically copyrighted from the moment of creation. This means that a person's written words belong to him or her, and may not be used without that person's permission.

Whether you are using (re-posting) something for profit or not does not matter--it's illegal to reproduce/re-post without specific permission!

I mention this only because I know quite a few people think that if something is posted on the Internet, that means that it's in the public domain, and anyone can use it anywhere else on the Web. This is NOT true.

With reference to the excerpts that I occasionally post here--with limited exceptions (the publisher's web page, for instance, or brief excerpts for amazon.com or barnesandnoble.com), I don't post excerpts anywhere else on the Web, save for this page. I don't want excerpts posted anywhere else, please.

I do occasionally post brief excerpts in the Compuserve Writers Forum, in the course of discussing various points of writing. These are not, and are not intended to be, permanent postings, as messages in the Writers Forum scroll off and disappear within a week or so. Sometimes, I ask Rosana to repost one of these temporary excerpts in a more permanent form here; other times, the excerpt in question is incomplete or still in progress, or comes too close to revealing plot spoilers, and we don't want to make it generally available.

So I do apprecaite everyone's respecting the copyright on these pieces--and if you should happen to see or hear about anyone reposting any of my excerpts elsewhere, I'd appreciate hearing about it. Thank you!


She also had something to say about fan fiction using her copyrighted characters, Jamie and Claire, on her site -- people apparently write fanfic using her characters, and she does not appreciate it!

http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~gatti/ga...uncements.html

I write fan-fiction, and would really like to do some stories involving some of your characters, but thought I should write to ask whether you have any objection to my doing this.

Well...um...yes. Actually, I do mind, and I really, really appreciate your asking first. {smile}I'm aware that many people think fan-fiction is somehow a compliment to the original author--or is at least innocuous. In fact, from a legal point of view, it's copyright infringement (and no, it does not matter whether the infringer is making money from their stories or not, it's still illegal), and from a personal point of view...well, I'm afraid the notion of having someone write stories using my characters makes me rather ill.


So...you can see that authors have every right to go after people who infringe on their copyrights. It does not matter if the fanfic writer is making money or considers it a compliment, it's still illegal.
HMVNipper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 06, 2004, 09:17 AM   #71
Happykim
Fool On The Hill
 
Happykim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 23, 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 8
Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

I haven't been here for a while, but when I came here today I was shocked to find that this discussion was still so active and was, quite frankly, getting out of hand.

Yes, some posts have been quite helpful, like JDanRyan's post on all the legal stuff. Thank you for that!

But otherwise, I personally think this discussion has turned into a mud fight. At this point, I think everyone has had their say and I suggest we close this thread; especially since the story that was the start of this discussion has been taken down weeks ago.

Everyone has made their point clear and I hope this'll be the end of it.
Happykim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 06, 2004, 09:32 AM   #72
HMVNipper
Sun King
 
HMVNipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 26, 2001
Location: New York City, USA
Posts: 11,672

Send a message via AIM to HMVNipper
Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

Actually, as a moderator, I see no reason to close this topic, it hasn't gotten out of control at all in my view. In fact, it has taken a quite interesting turn to other aspects of fanfic and is still a valuable and viable discussion.

I think I will leave it open for a little while and see if anyone has anything else to add; if not, it will fade away by itself.
HMVNipper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 06, 2004, 10:43 AM   #73
Happykim
Fool On The Hill
 
Happykim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 23, 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 8
Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

All right, well, have fun "discussing" then. I, for one, am tired of the "I'm right and you're wrong" posts (yep, and I know people are probably going to argue even about this), but I don't think I'm going to be back here anymore. From what I've experienced and heard so far, this board just isn't the friendliest place to be.

And yes, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but it's true that you're scaring off new writers like me (and I'm not the only one, believe me). Personally, I think that's sad.

Now before everyone's going to go like "A good writer has a thick skin" and all that, some people are writing for FUN, nothing more than that. Not everyone is trying to be the world's best fanfic writer. Though I agree that you have to try your best to be your best, this doesn't go for everyone. Keep that in mind when a new writer presents him or herself.

Be friendly!

Right, have fun everyone and you won't hear another peep out of me!

P.s. lol -- I didn't even know you could literally close a topic! I was actually going for a "cease fire"
Happykim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 06, 2004, 11:08 AM   #74
SirMarzipanMan
Apple Scruff
 
SirMarzipanMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 09, 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 102
Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

Thats a shame if you leave HappyKim!
Just keep on writing and don't listen to what others tell you.Write for yourself and be happy!!
SirMarzipanMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 06, 2004, 11:18 AM   #75
HMVNipper
Sun King
 
HMVNipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 26, 2001
Location: New York City, USA
Posts: 11,672

Send a message via AIM to HMVNipper
Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

I do not belive it was ever anyone's intention to scare off new writers, Kim. Nor was it anyone's intention to be unfriendly. However, I believe that many of the people who challenged what you write had legitimate reason to express concern and wanted further information on why you write what you do. We were trying to be encouraging, I believe -- absolutely NO ONE disparaged your talent or ability to write a story. All we questioned was your portrayal of a real person.

Frankly, I think that anyone who posts anything to the internet that is less than their best does not only themselves a disservice -- after all, do you want people to think you can't write well? Why would you present something to the world that is shoddy and ill-researched? -- but also does a disservice to those of us who have been fighting for years to convince people that fan fiction should be taken seriously and that it is not simply the realm of ignorant teenagers and horny housewives.

Writing for "fun" is all well and good, but I really think people should consider what kind of "fun" they get off on, particularly when it involves real people.
HMVNipper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 06, 2004, 11:26 AM   #76
Rellevart
Moderator
 
Rellevart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 15, 2000
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 13,764


Send a message via MSN to Rellevart
Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

[ QUOTE ]
HMVNipper Posted:
- but also does a disservice to those of us who have been fighting for years to convince people that fan fiction should be taken seriously and that it is not simply the realm of ignorant teenagers and horny housewives.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, but see, that's YOUR agenda. It's not every fan fic writer in the world's responsibility to make fan fic as a genre "look more respectable". Maybe they don't care about that. Maybe they just want it to be fun and that's ok for them.

I see where you're coming from about wanting to make something you love to be considered just as respectable as any other type of fiction, I really do, but for some people it's just a diversion rather than a mission. And to tell them that they have to change their mindset because they might make you look bad is a little presumptuous.
Rellevart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 06, 2004, 11:41 AM   #77
beatlegirl9977
Sgt. Pepper
 
beatlegirl9977's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 23, 2001
Posts: 4,783

Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

[ QUOTE ]
HMVNipper Posted:
Frankly, I think that anyone who posts anything to the internet that is less than their best does not only themselves a disservice -- after all, do you want people to think you can't write well? Why would you present something to the world that is shoddy and ill-researched? -- but also does a disservice to those of us who have been fighting for years to convince people that fan fiction should be taken seriously and that it is not simply the realm of ignorant teenagers and horny housewives.


[/ QUOTE ]
Right, it's like "fan fiction" is a dirty word or something when it comes to writing/publishing because of that preconceived notion that so many people have.

In short (after all that's been said so far), even if you're writing for fun, your readers don't necessarily know the whole backstory. I understand that nobody in the world has ever posted a perfect fan fic and nailed all the research and grammar and whatnot on their first try...and that it ISN'T homework you're handing in to a teacher...but most people who read fan fic are looking for things that are well-written and believable, even if it's sci-fi/alt-his/etc. I've lost count of how many people I've talked to that have said "There's no good fan fic out there anymore; there's nothing new and different, etc."

(I hope that all makes sense--I have serious medicine-haze going today! )
beatlegirl9977 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 06, 2004, 01:25 PM   #78
HMVNipper
Sun King
 
HMVNipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 26, 2001
Location: New York City, USA
Posts: 11,672

Send a message via AIM to HMVNipper
Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

[ QUOTE ]
Rellevart Posted:
[ QUOTE ]
HMVNipper Posted:
- but also does a disservice to those of us who have been fighting for years to convince people that fan fiction should be taken seriously and that it is not simply the realm of ignorant teenagers and horny housewives.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, but see, that's YOUR agenda. It's not every fan fic writer in the world's responsibility to make fan fic as a genre "look more respectable". Maybe they don't care about that. Maybe they just want it to be fun and that's ok for them.

I see where you're coming from about wanting to make something you love to be considered just as respectable as any other type of fiction, I really do, but for some people it's just a diversion rather than a mission. And to tell them that they have to change their mindset because they might make you look bad is a little presumptuous.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not what I'm trying to imply, Rell...I think that any writer, fanfic or other, who posts less than his or her best to the net in the name of "just for fun" is doing himself or herself a disservice, frankly. I said that before the bit you quoted. Why would any person want to post something that is "lesser" when they could post the best they can write? That doesn't make it worth reading -- quality writing that is true to the characters (particularly if the characters are real people) is what dictates a good fan fiction, at least in my humble opinion.

Frankly, I don't care how other fanfic makes ME look, my site has its own reputation and it's a good one, and believe me, other fanfic writers who have their own sites aren't going to affect Rooftop or its reputation one way or another. There are plenty of other fanfic sites (or there used to be, a lot of them have shut down) with all kinds of fic (including ones that festure Paul in Pain stories) that are considered good and have a really decent reputation for publishing high-quality stories. And there is certainly room for everyone in fanfic -- absolutely no one here has said Kim isn't a good writer, or that she shouldn't write fanfic in general, the comments have all been expressing concern that ONE of her stories might be a problem.

Believe me, I don't want to stop people from having fun with fanfic. However, I still maintain that not being cognizant of the fact that Beatlefic is about real, living, breathing people with feelings and using their names on all manner of characters to suit oneself is not "fun," it's just plain unmindful.
HMVNipper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 06, 2004, 02:53 PM   #79
SleepyHead
Sun King
 
SleepyHead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 11, 2000
Location: Louisiana, USA
Posts: 9,705

Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

Thanks, Susan, I agree with you that so far the discussion has remained fairly calm and un-nasty.

While I still maintain that no character assasination can be assumed based on the description of one scene that covered two mere pages in an unfinished story, I do agree that fan-fic disclaimers should appear on each page. As I've advised more than one correspondent, with the advancing technology of spidering, it is entirely possible for some computer illiterate to do a Google or Yahoo search and find themselves in the middle of a fanfic and not know it for fiction. This would be especially true for fanfiction written with totally fictive characters who may possess the name used in the story, may have been in the proximity of the area mentioned in the story, and may take severe offense at being paired with a Beatle. There is far more likelihood of an unknown who loathes the Beatles suing (and winning) a defamation lawsuit - an unknown doesn't have to prove a thing, unlike a person in the limelight.

The Hardy Boys fan-fic may be another subject entirely. I do feel that Kim is probably running a greater risk here as Frank and Joe are copywrited characters under a current copywrite.
SleepyHead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 06, 2004, 03:20 PM   #80
HMVNipper
Sun King
 
HMVNipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 26, 2001
Location: New York City, USA
Posts: 11,672

Send a message via AIM to HMVNipper
Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

You make a very valid case for disclaimers on each page, Sleepy -- while they won't protect you if someone wants to find a way to sue or shut your site down, they WILL hopefully draw people's attention to the fact that they are reading a FICTION site, and that can only be a good thing.

Oh, and just because I saw a lot of people in this thread do this -- it's copyRIGHT, not copyWRITE. It's the legal RIGHTS to ownership of the WRITING. (Just wanted to correct that! )
HMVNipper is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Advertisements

All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Site Features
Search Links

  Advanced Search
Category Jump



BeatleMail

FREE E-MAIL
@ BEATLEMAIL.COM


Username


Password




New User Sign-Up!
Lost Password?
Beatles History




Donate
The costs of running our database and discussion forum are steadily rising. Any help we receive is greatly appreciated. Click HERE for more information about donating to BeatleLinks.
Extras
» Chat Room
» Current News
» Monthly Contest
» Interviews Database
» Random Site
» Banner Exchange
» F.A.Q.
» Advertise
» Credits
» Legal
» Contact Us
Copyright © 2000-2018 BeatleLinks
All Rights Reserved