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Old Apr 23, 2004, 02:53 PM   #21
Dr. Dreamer
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Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

Yes we have all been posting simultaneously! - LOL
Thanks for the correct spelling on Stephen's name Susan. I have obviuosly NOT done my research on him!- LOLOLOL
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Old Apr 23, 2004, 03:37 PM   #22
Happykim
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Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

Hey everyone,

Well, if I'd known people were going to make such a big deal out of it, I'd never have posted the link!

Anyway, I appreciate your honest thoughts and maybe you're right about the whole Jim McCartney thing. I'll definitely look into it and maybe (probably) I'll decide to change it or take the story down completely.

My original idea for that story was based on something John had said in an interview, namely that Paul's father always told Paul what to wear and what to do and that John eventually told him to choose between him and his father, hence the title "Choices" (and not "Chances" as somebody quoted ). But somewhere along the way I just came up with Paul's father being abusive, not realising that people would take it so seriously.

Anyway, I'll just advise everyone here to stay clear of my site, because obviously none of you like that kind of stuff. So stay away!

I hope this'll be the end of it, I feel kinda stupid for posting the link in the first place. Feeling about 2 inches tall right now.

Thanks again for your comments, it's been an eye-opening experience, to say the least.

Love, Kim
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Old Apr 23, 2004, 03:54 PM   #23
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Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

Kim, none of us were trying to make you feel bad, honestly. I hope you understand that this has been a quite civil, quite interesting discussion!

It's just that while you were gone today, a lot of points came up that offered food for thought and we discussed them!

Please don't feel you should not have posted your link -- NO ONE is saying that at all, and there are probably some people here who would like to read your stories!

I hope you will stick around and join in other discussions!
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Old Apr 23, 2004, 04:21 PM   #24
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Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

I'm with Susan; I think this was an intresting discussion.
"Choices" is a good story, and I agree that it might work better as pure fiction.
I don't like changing people's characters in Beatle alt hists either. As an example: in the John and Mary stories on RS, history is changed, but John's character hasn't changed. My point is that alt hist/universe is different than changing characters.
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Old Apr 23, 2004, 07:10 PM   #25
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Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

I"m with Susan, Dr. Dreamer, Angel on this one.

I remember the summer of 2002 a poster was upset because Susan made it clear that she does not accept slash. Tim, a good and trusted moderator stepped in and I like what he said. I remember Tim asking the poster why they would want to read about a Beatle or anybody else being hurt and "if you want to read that kind of thing, you can always read a newspaper." He rightfully pointed out that it IS up to the discretion and guidelines of the editor/editorial staff to accept or not accept material based on need and format. I think that is fair and honest and reasonable.

Kim, again I don't want to make you feel bad and that was never my intention. I personally didn't care for the stories. You plainly write well, but it bothered me to see Jim McCartney portrayed as a "drunken lout" who took his anger out on a very young Paul. Susan and the others raise a very real concern about how the feelings of the real people involved, such as Paul and his children and their families and Heather would feel to see this kind of thing. It bothered me, Kim. It really bothered me not only because of the content, but because of what I said above.

Again, I appreciate your shedding light on why you like slash and write it. Plainly there are a lot of people who share your feelings. While I don't like slash, don't take that to be a reflection on you.

Angel, Susan and Tina speak from professional experience. They are all accomplished writers and their work speaks to volumes of talent. I don't think they were CRITICIZING you; I think they were CRITIQUING your work.

CRITICIZE usually means to find fault with.

CRITIQUE means to analyze and offer input that is meant to be helpful.

Back to stories involving real people, living and dead. Last year in Rooftop Sessions, Cheryl Mortenson wrote a beautiful story entitled "The Right Door." It is a story I truly cherish. It is about George in the stage after his passing and just prior to his reaching the next cosmic level, for lack of another term. I like the way Harold and Louise, Sr. were written. It was a lovely, moving and plausibly written story and I like the way John and Stu were also included. Each of the real people and the place, Liverpool in or about 1959-60 was very credible and each "character's" voice was true to the real counterpart. She has written other stories involving real people such as Astrid, Stu, Brian Epstein and others.

C.A. Jones has written some really nice Ringo fiction and Lisha Goldberg never fails to delight me with her George stories. Beth Shorten's Paul stories always bring a big smile to my face. Angel and Tina have written some outstanding stories and speak from years of professional experience. You can only expect extraordinary caliber from them and the other writers who have work featured in [i]Rooftop Sessions[/b]. In short, I can't say I've ever been disappointed with the work in Rooftop Sessions. That is why it is a high caliber work and it has been rock solid for the past 5 years. That is quite an impressive record.
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Old Apr 23, 2004, 07:25 PM   #26
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Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

See, here's the thing that I just don't get about fan fic. It's FICTION. Even if the characters are real people, it's situations that never happened and conversations that were never had and ideas that were never conceived of. By definition. So what, really, is the difference between John going up in a space ship and Paul's dad being something other than what he really was? It's all fiction, fantasy, imagination...and it's all "to each their own". Isn't it?
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Old Apr 23, 2004, 07:56 PM   #27
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Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

[ QUOTE ]
Rellevart Posted:
See, here's the thing that I just don't get about fan fic. It's FICTION. Even if the characters are real people, it's situations that never happened and conversations that were never had and ideas that were never conceived of. By definition. So what, really, is the difference between John going up in a space ship and Paul's dad being something other than what he really was? It's all fiction, fantasy, imagination...and it's all "to each their own". Isn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes, it is fiction and the situations are hypothetical, but it's still important to allow the people the story is about to retain their true character, or at least their character as it is publicly understood.
If you were a famous person, how would you feel if you read a story, to use the piece under discussion for example, if you read a story portraying your deceased father as a child abusing, drunken brute when he was actually gentle and kind? How would you like it if you knew there was a chance your children, his grandchildren, would see this portrayal of their grandfather posted in public?
It is one thing to write about a real person in a fictional situation while retaining his or her character and quite another to disrespectfully "make" them do things which they never really would by any stretch of the imagination.
I write John stories, and in them things happen which never did occur in his real life (although some of the conversations I include did actually take place, but between John and myself rather than he and whoever he is interacting with in the story), but the John character in the story will always remain recognizeable, because I will not have him say or do anything that I do not believe he would not do in real life under the same circumstances.
That's why research is so importanat. I sometimes include scenes featuring the other Beatles, none of whom I knew, and I have to be sure to respect their characters, too. I therefore listen to interviews to capture their speech patterns and read quotes from their friends and families as well as the Beatle under investigation himself, and write their actions and dialogue according to the pattern I see within what I've seen and read.
If I thought for a moment that any of the Beatles would be hurt or offended by the way I have portrayed either them or their family members, I would stop writing my stories and posting them tomorrow.
I write out of love for the boys, especially John, and I think it's important to respect their characters by portraying them as realistically as possible.
I hope this helps you understand.
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Old Apr 23, 2004, 08:00 PM   #28
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Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

[ QUOTE ]
[b][i]angelgodiva Posted
I hope this helps you understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really, but I appreciate your input.

I wouldn't want to read anything that was disrespectful or painful about somebody I care about and respect and in that we agree. But then again, I wouldn't really have any interest in reading anything about the same person that was nice and respectful, but again, didn't happen.

I guess I just lack the suspense of reality thing that you need to enjoy fan fic. That's me. No knock on the genre in any way.
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Old Apr 23, 2004, 08:01 PM   #29
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Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

Darn, I still don't have this quote thing figured out...sorry for the bold...
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Old Apr 24, 2004, 05:08 AM   #30
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Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

[ QUOTE ]
beatlebangs1964 Posted:
Again, I appreciate your shedding light on why you like slash and write it. Plainly there are a lot of people who

[/ QUOTE ]

BB...one thing...Kim doesn't write slash. In fact, she said above that she doesn't like it. "Slash" is the term for homosexual stories, not blood and guts. Kim writes another genre called "Paul in Pain" stories. (Which I STILL don't get, but I've already said that... )

Just thought I should clarify.

And no, we were not criticizing Kim at all. In fact, the really interesting discussion here has been an effort to understand better why people enjoy this genre of work.
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Old Apr 24, 2004, 07:28 AM   #31
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Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

[ QUOTE ]
HMVNipper Posted:
Kim, none of us were trying to make you feel bad, honestly. I hope you understand that this has been a quite civil, quite interesting discussion!

It's just that while you were gone today, a lot of points came up that offered food for thought and we discussed them!

Please don't feel you should not have posted your link -- NO ONE is saying that at all, and there are probably some people here who would like to read your stories!

I hope you will stick around and join in other discussions!

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too.
It was a very interesting discussion, and quite controversial.
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Old Apr 24, 2004, 07:44 AM   #32
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Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

[ QUOTE ]
Rellevart Posted:
[ QUOTE ]
angelgodiva Posted
I hope this helps you understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really, but I appreciate your input.

I wouldn't want to read anything that was disrespectful or painful about somebody I care about and respect and in that we agree. But then again, I wouldn't really have any interest in reading anything about the same person that was nice and respectful, but again, didn't happen.

I guess I just lack the suspense of reality thing that you need to enjoy fan fic. That's me. No knock on the genre in any way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I've said before, I've only just 'got into' fanfics. I read a few a couple of years ago but they were quite dull and not so well written and very predictable so I lost interest and I didn't look at anymore until a couple of months ago, and now I'm hooked!

Maybe this won't apply to you, but this is why I think I like it...

1. The diagesis (thats the fictional world created in the narrative) suck you in so that for a little while it feels 'real.' And thats nice when the Beatles are kicking around. It is the suture of really good fanfics that suspend disbelief.

2. I like the clever structure most authors employ to get around things or alternative roots to things. I like it when the stories, instead of rewritting history in its entireity bend it or mold it to fit the narrative. Far from giving away the ending or whats going to happen I think haveing the background knowledge enhances the enjoyment of the story.

3. Like Beatlelinks, fanfics are essential discussions of the Beatles. But instead of it being direct with lots of people inputting stuff like on the forum here, it is one persons opinion. For want of a better example, Uplifting (What I did writted) is, when you strip away all the codes and conventions of the narrative, a comparison of George's role in the Beatles during the Let It Be era and from the very beginning. Most stories put forward thier opinins on things like this, even if thier authors don't realise it!! As anyone who has studied this kind of thing or the media as a whole will know, 'fictional' narratives are often more effective than non fiction. For example. narrativised films have a bigger effect on an audience than straight documentarys, during WW2 Nazi propaganda films were all just fictional stories and they were the most effective form of propaganda ever! Not that I'm saying Beatles fanfics are propaganda, although... (Kiddin'!)


I had a professor at uni who did very indepth research into fanfics of all kinds, but I can't remember his findings. I might email him and ask him about it.
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Old Apr 24, 2004, 08:23 AM   #33
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Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

Susan, thank you for clarifying that!

No, I don't write slash and I don't like to read that stuff. Not because I have anything against homosexuals (I actually have a few good homosexual friends), but I just don't like to see the explicit stuff between our boys. However, if people want to write about that, fine by me, I just won't read it

And I totally agree with what Rellevart said:

[ QUOTE ]
Rellevart Posted:
See, here's the thing that I just don't get about fan fic. It's FICTION. Even if the characters are real people, it's situations that never happened and conversations that were never had and ideas that were never conceived of. By definition. So what, really, is the difference between John going up in a space ship and Paul's dad being something other than what he really was? It's all fiction, fantasy, imagination...and it's all "to each their own". Isn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly how I feel.

It never occurred to me that people might be hurt or offended by it, because fiction is just NOT real.

However, I can see now WHY people might be offended by it.

Susan, I know you don't "get" why some people like the Paul in pain genre, just as I don't "get" why people like romance and slash stories. But that's mostly why we're humans; not one two people are the same (hmm...does that make sense? ), we're all different.

Just because I like the Paul in pain genre, doesn't mean I go around promoting violence or that I want anyone to get hurt or killed in real life. Maybe it's BECAUSE I'd never even hurt a fly in real life (and I'm not exaggerating here..ok, maybe the occasional mosquito ends up being squashed, but other than that I'm quite harmless ), that I'm drawn to these stories. (it's always the quiet ones )

Anyway, I know you guys didn't mean to make me feel bad, but with each comment it was getting harder and harder to not take it personal. But I'm ok now

I just hope we can all agree on the fact that we're all different and that we don't necessarily have to understand why people like what to be able to live and write together peacefully.

However, I do understand your point of view and I hope you understand my point of view a little bit better now, even though I know you still don't get it

Love, Kim
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Old Apr 24, 2004, 09:03 AM   #34
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Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

[ QUOTE ]
angelgodiva Posted:

Yes, it is fiction and the situations are hypothetical, but it's still important to allow the people the story is about to retain their true character, or at least their character as it is publicly understood.
If you were a famous person, how would you feel if you read a story, to use the piece under discussion for example, if you read a story portraying your deceased father as a child abusing, drunken brute when he was actually gentle and kind? How would you like it if you knew there was a chance your children, his grandchildren, would see this portrayal of their grandfather posted in public?

[/ QUOTE ]

Angel,

I couldn't have said it better. Part of why Rooftop Sessions stands head and shoulders above the Beatle Fan Fic crowd is that in each submission, the Beatles and other real people, e.g. Astrid, Brian, George's siblings have to be true to their real counterparts. The stories are just literary interpretations/representations of the real people to make for a good and effective story.

Part of my very real concern from the beginning is that none of us knows who reads the stories or checks on line. Paul's children, Heather or Dhani could be reading the stories for all we know. The idea is to treat all real persons with respect to their true selves.

[ QUOTE ]
[qb] Originally Posted By Angelgodiva:
It is one thing to write about a real person in a fictional situation while retaining his or her character and quite another to disrespectfully "make" them do things which they never really would by any stretch of the imagination.
I write John stories, and in them things happen which never did occur in his real life (although some of the conversations I include did actually take place, but between John and myself rather than he and whoever he is interacting with in the story), but the John character in the story will always remain recognizeable, because I will not have him say or do anything that I do not believe he would not do in real life under the same circumstances.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cheers to that, Angel! Having the "real" people, Beatles and others make literary statements and do things in the story that remain within the context of their true selves is for what makes for plausible AND effective writing.

[ QUOTE ]
[qb] Originally Posted By Angelgodiva:
That's why research is so importanat. I sometimes include scenes featuring the other Beatles, none of whom I knew, and I have to be sure to respect their characters, too. I therefore listen to interviews to capture their speech patterns and read quotes from their friends and families as well as the Beatle under investigation himself, and write their actions and dialogue according to the pattern I see within what I've seen and read.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is EXACTLY what makes for plausible work. That is what not only keeps readers wanting more, but also respecting the effort that went into creating the stories in the first place. Having "believable" Beatles that use the speech patters/inflections/expressions that they did and by having them relate in the story in ways that one could have reasonably expected them to do in real life is CRUCIAL. It is a way of maintaining literary honesty and respect for those real individuals.

[ QUOTE ]
[qb] Originally Posted By Angelgodiva:
If I thought for a moment that any of the Beatles would be hurt or offended by the way I have portrayed either them or their family members, I would stop writing my stories and posting them tomorrow.
I write out of love for the boys, especially John, and I think it's important to respect their characters by portraying them as realistically as possible.
I hope this helps you understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Angel, I could never have said it better if I tried. I think what you have been doing all along is just that and it shows in your work. I like the way you have gotten this message across.
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Old Apr 24, 2004, 09:10 AM   #35
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Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

[ QUOTE ]
HMVNipper Posted:


BB...one thing...Kim doesn't write slash. In fact, she said above that she doesn't like it. "Slash" is the term for homosexual stories, not blood and guts. Kim writes another genre called "Paul in Pain" stories. (Which I STILL don't get, but I've already said that... )

Just thought I should clarify.

And no, we were not criticizing Kim at all. In fact, the really interesting discussion here has been an effort to understand better why people enjoy this genre of work.

[/ QUOTE ]

Susan,

Thank you for clarifying. I used the wrong term, but the bottom line is I don't like "blood and guts" and anybody in pain genre and I also am no fan of homosexual fiction about people were were reportedly not gay. Still, I thought the term "slash" applied to both genres. Thank you.

Kim,

Never regret your part, even as the starter of a good discussion. I like the discourse that has taken place. I admit I never understood the attraction for the slash genre, but although it isn't my cup of tea, this discussion has helped to enlighten me somewhat.

Kim, you are lucky to have Angel, Dr. Dreamer, Susan and Tina offering input. They all speak from professional experience and again, any and all information they have to offer can only help to make you more effective in your writing.
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Old Apr 24, 2004, 12:50 PM   #36
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Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

I'm sorry, Kim, I didn't read the title of your second fan-fic quite right. Perhaps that skewed my view of what I was reading - I'll have to go back and re-read it with the correct title on my mind to see.

At any rate, I didn't mean to indicate that I didn't care for your topic lines, all I said was that I don't quite understand the background behind "Stagefright". I think perhaps a week or two of setup background would better ground the story. As it reads, it sounds entirely too much like a Harlequin to me - a couple of sentences to set it up, but nothing to really make me feel the fear Paul is feeling. I truly loathe Harlequins where the entire storyline is girl meets boy, girl hates boy, girl kisses/screws boy (depending on which decade it was written in), boy admits he loves girl, and vice versa. And nearly all of them have one or the other of the supposed couple in some situation of peril wherein the other discovers the depth of their feeling for the other.

That genre works as well as it does because most of us females fill in the obvious blanks of the story with our own personal experiences. Regardless of what some men claim, we women mostly tend to fantasize about our current love, not someone else. The Harlequin type gives us a vehicle for our personal fantasy.

In your story, though, I don't have any personal experiences to fill in the blanks with. That's why I think taking a more Stephen King-ish approach (with some detailed history) to set it up would work beautifully.

Now, as for "Choices", I don't see what all of the hullaballoo is about. I have read extensively, and cannot find enough written material on Jim McCartney to negate your storyline that he kinda lost it after Mary's death. Having gone through several immediate deaths in the family, I don't find it far-fetched at all. What I do find far-fetched is the suggestion that a "nice guy" wouldn't act any differently when his beloved spouse dies. That is utter crap - only an unfeeling lout would have no personal feelings to work through. The grieving process involves the utter bereavement, the sense that all is lost, anger against the one who died, anger against God, anger against anyone connected to the deceased who continually reminds the grieving person of the deceased person, anger against oneself for feeling all of these conflicting emotions, and definite, although usually temporary, changes in one's perceived character. Most of us do NOT go around seeking comfort 24/7 - the recently bereaved do just that, and it's a process that takes well upwards of two years. The more our public lives require us to remain the same, the more our private lives must change to accomodate our grieving process.

In all of my reading, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that life went on as usual after Mary's death. Most of the few tales that exist pick up some couple of years afterwards, when the grieving process would naturally have abated.

Having said all of that, I don't find your fanfic unbelievable at all.
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Old Apr 24, 2004, 03:47 PM   #37
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Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

One thing I want to add that the one thing that drives me up a tree and is a peeve I have is when characters are sicced onto readers. I am not saying this about Kim's work at all; I am just making a general statement.

In any story, particularly fan fic, it is crucial to account for your characters in who they are and how they fit into a real story involving real people. If there is one thing that I truly can't stand is when a character is just unleashed onto readers with no prep or introducction and readers are left wondering, "Who the heck IS this character and how does THIS character fit into a story involving REAL people?"
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Old Apr 25, 2004, 07:32 AM   #38
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Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

Kim - you must be doing something right or of these kind people would not have looked at what you wrote.

Stories like the kind you write are not for me. I am very particular. Pay attention to what HMVNipper has to say - especially a disclaimer not working. If Paul read what have written he might take it as an insult to the memory of his father, and be very upset with you. I would suggest rewritining it in a way that would be more accepting to all.
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Old Apr 26, 2004, 12:16 PM   #39
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Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

Toshi,

I have to agree with you all the way on this one. I, too am particular and stories such as these are certainly not for me.

Even with a disclaimer, the very real concern of the feelings of the real people involved is something to be taken very seriously. While this genre is not my taste either, clearly there are many readers who feel differently.
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Old Apr 27, 2004, 09:24 AM   #40
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Default Re: I\'ve got some fanfics too :o)

To all readers- warnings mean what they say

To all writers - a thick skin with teflon armor IS as essential as the imagination you express in words.

And if the work is not to be taken seriously how, then, can the author of the work be taken seriously?
As learned from my own experiences, given in the spirit of compassion, as a career writer and food for thought for those inclined to have a bite. Nuff said from me!
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