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Old Jun 08, 2014, 04:55 AM   #41
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It seemed to me John was always busy trying to make sense of the world, people around him and himself, in that order, while in Em's life it's himself first and then maybe the rest of the world. If that's unfair, so be it, but that's how he strikes me.

Actually, 'crap' isn't that bad a word in British English, you know? Granted it's not pretty, it's certainly not polite, but it's not precisely highly offensive either. I can think of other expressions that are much worse!
Thank's for pointing that out, hibgal But you know, it was not so much the word "crap" itself which were perceived as offensive, but much more the member it came from, meaning Snoopy - as Maia herself remarked very correctly. Other members can write "f**k" several times in a posting and no-one feels offended, so... never mind, I don't bother at all. Everyone is feel to understand a word or statement as she/he wants to understand it - I don't really care

By the way, I absolutely agree with your statement... and that's why Eminem will never be such a worldwide icon like John is. Certainly for the rap and hip hop world, but not more.

Just a pity how this promising thread dissipates now in a laud for Nirvana and Kurt Cobain, which I don't think was the aim of the initial topic and won't interest tons of Beatles-fans in this forum either, but oh well...

What really strikes me is that nobody mentioned Bob Dylan, which IMHO has far much more in common with John, than Kurt... ? Oh, but probably the old Bob ist just not nuts enough for being compared with John

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Old Jun 08, 2014, 09:35 AM   #42
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What really strikes me is that nobody mentioned Bob Dylan, which IMHO has far much more in common with John, than Kurt... ? Oh, but probably the old Bob ist just not nuts enough for being compared with John
Actually, Dylan is probably the most "nuts" out of all of 'em!!

And Snoopy, if you do seek any understanding, then please go back and read my response to hib. It is not the word "crap" that I found offensive.

I'm curious to know why you seem to get offended, though, when mental illness and John are mentioned in the same sentence? (And, may I point out, that you were the one to bring up the subject in this thread?) John himself admitted to suffering from depression, which we also know that Eminem and Kurt suffered from. And, very likely, a lot of great artists. Here's a nice Ted Talk about the power of music as medicine for someone with mental illness. I especially like the speaker's conclusion:

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And I understood that this was the very essence of art. This was the very reason why we made music, that we take something that exists within all of us at our very fundamental core, our emotions, and through our artistic lens, through our creativity, we're able to shape those emotions into reality. And the reality of that expression reaches all of us and moves us, inspires and unites us.
Which explains why people as different as us both love the music of John Lennon. So maybe you don't appreciate Nirvana as I do, but I can assure you that there are millions of Beatles fans who do.
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Old Jun 08, 2014, 01:05 PM   #43
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I'm curious to know why you seem to get offended, though, when mental illness and John are mentioned in the same sentence? (And, may I point out, that you were the one to bring up the subject in this thread?) John himself admitted to suffering from depression, which we also know that Eminem and Kurt suffered from. And, very likely, a lot of great artists.
I can't and won't speak for Snoopy but "offended" isn't the right word here for me. Why I reject this talk is NOT because John might have had a mental illness but due to the need/urge to psychoanalyze famous persons who are not even around to give their own view! That goes for ALL such persons, whether it's Mozart or Plato or JFK or whomever. Depression, for instance, can be clinical but it doesn't have to be. Not everyone suffering from an episode of depression needs professional help. Sometimes we do 'snap out of it', you know? I'm just sick and tired of the speculation, period. I don't like this incessant need to put a label on everyone that is walking to a different drummer. Why can't we simply accept somebody was different without having to try explaining their individuality away by saying he was bipolar or depressed or ADHD or schizophrenic or whatever? It's insulting!
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Old Jun 08, 2014, 03:08 PM   #44
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It's insulting!
See, and I don't get why it would be insulting. You're just as guilty as the rest of us in analyzing certain aspects of John's life. Just because I suggest he may have suffered from this or that shouldn't insult anyone, as there's nothing inherently "wrong" with depression. No need to label or pigeon-hole anyone... just seeking to understand. Like all the speculation about what caused Stu's death. We'll probably never really know with 100% certainty why he had a cerebral hemorrhage, but people still discuss it and label it. Why is it "bad" to label someone as possibly suffering from "depression" but not from a "cerebral hemorrhage"?
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Old Jun 08, 2014, 03:12 PM   #45
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Anyway.... back to the Eminem comparison. Who's got something interesting to add?
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Old Jun 08, 2014, 10:00 PM   #46
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So, with the R&R Hall of Fame and this thread, I have been listening to a lot of Nirvana lately, and I've got to say it makes me damn sad that we have so few (relatively) songs by Kurt. I would have loved to hear how he would have evolved. Anyway, if you missed the induction ceremony (how could you if you have HBO? It's on all day long every damn day!), here it is... and I only post it here so you can skip to about 3:10, when Michael Stipe inducts them. What he says about artists really applies to The Beatles and to John especially. More of the John/Kurt connection, I think.

What a fantastic speech! Go Stipe! I felt that speech, man, it made me go back. I was a teen when I got hooked on Nirvana, well, specifically Kurt. I guess his attitude and his complete disregard for pretense and phoniness was something that really spoke to me. I loved his lyrics. I had a really wonderful childhood with incredible parents, but I had my own challenges (as we all do) and I could really put on a Nirvana song and just belt it out. I loved that attitude, the powerful chords, and the angst...oh the angst.
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Old Jun 09, 2014, 05:59 AM   #47
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Depression, for instance, can be clinical but it doesn't have to be. Not everyone suffering from an episode of depression needs professional help. Sometimes we do 'snap out of it', you know? I'm just sick and tired of the speculation, period. I don't like this incessant need to put a label on everyone that is walking to a different drummer. Why can't we simply accept somebody was different without having to try explaining their individuality away by saying he was bipolar or depressed or ADHD or schizophrenic or whatever? It's insulting!
I couldn't more agree with that statement, hibgal Furthermore, it's not only insulting, but also disrespectful. Like you, I'm just sick and tired of these negative speculations.

Great artists are just a special kind of human and their "flaws" cannot be measured with those of "normal" people; so no reason to make such a fuss about.

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Old Jun 09, 2014, 06:30 AM   #48
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.

On the contrary, after downloading his first 4 albums and the new one and actually f****ng listening (with the aid of lyrics because aint no one got time for repeated listens) I am convinced this man is a modern-day poet. His song "Rap God" is essentially 6 minutes of freestyle over a beat, where he changes his flow numerous times and not only does he convey incredible grasp of the English language, brilliant wordplay and phenomenal use of metaphors. but he stays on topic and the song has an actual meaning. It's not just rhyming to rhyme. It's- dare I say it- mother*****ng genius. I then decided, since I cared enough to listen to these artists, to make a list of stuff that impressed me and since I made this decision while listening to Eminem these are the songs that reminded me of John and made me realize that Eminem is easily hands-down a GOAT (my niece tells me this is the new, hip way to say greatest of all time so thank me for this info, b*tc***):

1. When I'm gone
2. Beautiful

3.Headlights

4. Mockingbird

5. Like Toy Soldiers

6. Difficult

7. Sing for the Moment

8. Rock Bottom

9. Going Through Changes

10. Til I Collapse

Thank you Fly! I appreciate your post so much, and the effort you made to add credence to what you were saying by listening to Marshall's music. I would like to say something on behalf of Eminem, since Snoopy's comment above about him not being able to make an impact worldwide/ only hip-hop fans appreciate him:

My dad is a straight-up rock and roll fan. There is no swaying his love for that genre and all the people who helped pave it. As kids, we basically only listened to my dad's radio stations, my dad's records, and he would always have a story behind every song that was played. This is why I am the only person amongst my friend who knows Jackson Browne's entire catalog- that would be my dad!

And yet my wonderful father somehow loves Eminem's first two albums (well, the ones we know about, not counting his actual first infinite) and he doesn't really care that much for hip-hop, aside from Run DMC or the Beastie Boys. So I beg to differ that only hip-hop fans are fans of Eminem. There are so many people I know who aren't really hip-hop fans but love Em. I think it has something to do with his lyrical prowess and, also, songs like "Lose Yourself," "Sing For The Moment," "Stan" or "Cleaning Out My Closet," which are fairly anthemic and powerfully-written masterpieces.

Anyways, back to Fly's post. I love your list, Fly. I think "When I'm Gone" is easily in my top song by him. It's a very emotional and sentimental record, along with "Mockingbird" and "Beautiful."

I know Maia said she doesn't feel a connection, emotionally, to Em. I guess I can understand that, but when I hear songs like "Beautiful" or "When I'm Gone" or "Difficult" or "Renegade" or "Headlights" or (yeah I can go on) I feel very emotionally connected to him. He has a hard side, but he also has a completely different side to his music as well.

I'm posting this because of Fly's list...

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Old Jun 09, 2014, 08:06 PM   #49
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Like you, I'm just sick and tired of these negative speculations.
See, that's EXACTLY my point. You see it as negative. Why?! There's nothing inherently negative about it.
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Old Jun 09, 2014, 08:14 PM   #50
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And yet my wonderful father somehow loves Eminem's first two albums (well, the ones we know about, not counting his actual first infinite) and he doesn't really care that much for hip-hop, aside from Run DMC or the Beastie Boys. So I beg to differ that only hip-hop fans are fans of Eminem. There are so many people I know who aren't really hip-hop fans but love Em.
...
I know Maia said she doesn't feel a connection, emotionally, to Em.
I feel almost exactly like your dad. I may be a bit more into hip hop than he is, but definitely not much more. And it's not that I don't connect with Em... I just got tired of his over-the-top anger. (Which seems to have mellowed.) He blows me away with his talent, though.

I wonder what Yoko thinks about Eminem. I'm gonna do a little searching. And, btw, didn't Em use her name in one of his rhymes? Or am I thinking of Sonny Bono??

[EDIT: So I found a quote from a 2003 interview with USA Today in which Yoko says she like Eminem's music. And, as a side note, do you know the Justin Timberlake/Jay-Z song, Murder? Jay-Z name checks Yoko, it's pretty funny.]
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Old Jun 11, 2014, 02:18 PM   #51
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And, as a side note, do you know the Justin Timberlake/Jay-Z song, Murder? Jay-Z name checks Yoko, it's pretty funny.]
Ha! Good one, Maia. It's kind of awesome how John and Yoko continue to intertwine themselves in modern pop culture- simply because of how fascinating they were as a couple.

I found this and it reminded me of John:

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Old Jun 14, 2014, 07:41 AM   #52
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[/b]Other members can write "f**k" several times in a posting and no-one feels offended, so...
I'm offended that someone would ever be that foul-mouthed. Oh the humanity! That pig.
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Old Jun 14, 2014, 08:10 AM   #53
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Why can't we simply accept somebody was different without having to try explaining their individuality away by saying he was bipolar or depressed or ADHD or schizophrenic or whatever? It's insulting!
But this is what happens with people who are famous, or who have contributed something ingenious to this world. There is fascination, a desire to know more about the person and their background, questions like how the f*** did this person who grew up in this uptight, basic family end up becoming this icon? or Where did their genius originate? and then you take it from there. Mental illness is a serious and growing thing. People who have various forms of mental illness are not confined by a textbook definition. They display traits and patterns that can include them within the 'mental illness' parameter, but not every person is the same.

So it becomes fascination, or it becomes relatable. Since there are so many examples of people of extreme intelligence/genius possibly having some form of mental illness, there is legitimate interest spurred.

I'm sounding like a pretentious fu**ing scholar, but in fact I just think that there is nothing wrong with discussing John's possible mental illness and I do get your frustration, but it's a losing battle to argue that it's not something that will continue to be discussed.

It's like me wishing Snoopy wasn't stuck in the "Leave It To Beaver" days, wasn't building a Cynthia Lennon shrine in her basement, didn't judge post-Beatles John solely on his hairstyle and outfits. Aint gonna happen.
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Old Jun 14, 2014, 08:13 AM   #54
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Well f*** me. When did Eminem get so sexy? I always secretly felt he had a hot body under all those 50 layers of excessively huge and baggy urban street-wear but now his face is telling me there's even more.
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Old Jun 14, 2014, 08:25 AM   #55
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Thank you Fly! I appreciate your post so much, and the effort you made to add credence to what you were saying by listening to Marshall's music. I would like to say something on behalf of Eminem, since Snoopy's comment above about him not being able to make an impact worldwide/ only hip-hop fans appreciate him:

My dad is a straight-up rock and roll fan. There is no swaying his love for that genre and all the people who helped pave it. As kids, we basically only listened to my dad's radio stations, my dad's records, and he would always have a story behind every song that was played. This is why I am the only person amongst my friend who knows Jackson Browne's entire catalog- that would be my dad!

And yet my wonderful father somehow loves Eminem's first two albums (well, the ones we know about, not counting his actual first infinite) and he doesn't really care that much for hip-hop, aside from Run DMC or the Beastie Boys. So I beg to differ that only hip-hop fans are fans of Eminem. There are so many people I know who aren't really hip-hop fans but love Em. I think it has something to do with his lyrical prowess and, also, songs like "Lose Yourself," "Sing For The Moment," "Stan" or "Cleaning Out My Closet," which are fairly anthemic and powerfully-written masterpieces.

Anyways, back to Fly's post. I love your list, Fly. I think "When I'm Gone" is easily in my top song by him. It's a very emotional and sentimental record, along with "Mockingbird" and "Beautiful."

I know Maia said she doesn't feel a connection, emotionally, to Em. I guess I can understand that, but when I hear songs like "Beautiful" or "When I'm Gone" or "Difficult" or "Renegade" or "Headlights" or (yeah I can go on) I feel very emotionally connected to him. He has a hard side, but he also has a completely different side to his music as well.

I'm posting this because of Fly's list...

It was a struggle to not work and sit there with my headphones on, listening to music and eating Greek yogurt, but these sacrifices I make are worth it when I am thanked endlessly and then my posts are quoted. I feel like I did good- thanks b1tches!

In all honesty, I think Eminem is like John in a few ways outside of music. Aside from having a Libra sun/Aquarius Moon/Libra Mars and Fire rising like John, the man is a contradiction. Look at his lyrics and you think he's a straight-up homophobic, misogynistic, violent little d**k, but then you realize that he expresses his anger through his music, and in real life he's a f***ing soccer dad who adopted two kids, one that belonged to the ex-wife he apparently wanted to kill in his songs, and raised them to become-purportedly- very nice young ladies. Also, he raised his brother, gives a F**K of a loty back to his city of Detroit, is apparently quite kind to his fans, and uses a walkman like an old dude. Also, he has nothing against gay people in real life, has never said or done anything to indicate so outside of those Slim Shady songs, and Elton John is a friend of his.

Like John, I think Eminem was a sh*t-stirrer of sorts in his youth in particular. He loved to speak his mind and get a reaction, but according to my now-new research, he's not actually a violent/angry/aggressive person in reality. Just like writers write books, filmmakers make films, etc. songwriters can embody a "character
in their music that may say things they have felt, or say worse than what they actually think, but is simply a glimmer of their personality- just a piece. Eminem does this with Slim Shady and I think it's actually one of the most clever things anyone has done in music and art in the past decade or more. F***ing genius.

This thread has become a perfect launching pad for what appears to be my newly-re-found love of Eminem's music. Thanks a lot Apple. Now I gotta put my headphones on in the house because the kids
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Old Jun 14, 2014, 10:36 AM   #56
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Do we really need the fucking asterisks?
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Old Jun 14, 2014, 11:53 AM   #57
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Do we really need the fucking asterisks?
Oh Hey there ringo, you rebel you.
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Old Jun 14, 2014, 01:42 PM   #58
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Not trying to be a rebel, but if someone feels compelled to censor the word, why use it in the first place? I'm not a prude but cursing is the ultimate conversational crutch, so I find excessive use of it to be pointless anyway, but especially when you completely dilute the impact by knowing it needs to be censored...why bother?
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Old Jun 14, 2014, 02:31 PM   #59
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Not trying to be a rebel, but if someone feels compelled to censor the word, why use it in the first place? I'm not a prude but cursing is the ultimate conversational crutch, so I find excessive use of it to be pointless anyway, but especially when you completely dilute the impact by knowing it needs to be censored...why bother?
Excellent point. I gotcha.
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Old Jun 14, 2014, 03:25 PM   #60
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Far as I know this forum doesn't have a profanity filter. In the past we've simply subscribed to the general netiquette rule of avoiding offensive language. Sometimes the mods would edit such posts or even delete them, depending on circumstances. Don't know what's acceptable now. For myself, asterisks or no, I reserve the right not to read them.
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