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Old Aug 11, 2011, 06:19 PM   #21
Hari's Chick
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Originally Posted by darkhorse23 View Post
1.. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the
wealth out of prosperity.
True to an extent. But the middle class is vanishing in America. I see many factors contributing to this trend- the main factor being greed. Major corporations have moved jobs overseas where they can pay pennies on the dollar they would be required to pay a minimun wage American. To increase profits, they moved factories, etc. So "made in America" is rarely seen on anything these days, compared to what it once was.

Also, the shift in values in the 1970's turned things a bit upside down. Divorce rates rose, women went back to work in droves but were paid .60 on the dollar in terms of pay. Where in the 1950's it was mostly men supporting a family, one income, everything changed. Now, there were many double-income families, some traditional men-supported families, and some women supported families. Minorites were paid less, and women minorities far less. This is when I see the division really beginning. Rents could raise because of double income families. That would increasingly marginalize single women and minorities. The gap began to grow.

Then in the 1980's and 1990's we saw companies downsizing. Technology and the globalization of the world markets widened the gap.

Legislature argued that helping the big companies stay as big as possible was advisable ... to support the middle and lower classes... but that was just lip service. All the jobs were going overseas. Our country did no long term planning.

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2.. What one person receives without working for, another person
must work for without receiving.
Or... what one person is entitled to receive (social security for veterans, as an example) is kept to a bare minimum, so another person's investments can provide them luxuries they really do not deserve, need, and who's stock broker worked for.

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3.. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the
government does not first take from somebody else.
It's an oldie but a goodie... the book "America: What Went Wrong." It speaks of how senators can have zillion dollar chairs we taxpayers pay for while children starve and have no health care.

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4.. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
You cannot multiply spiritual wealth by hoarding material wealth.

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5.. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work, because somebody else is going to get what they work for, this is the beginning of the end of a nation.
When the middle class begins to disappear, so do the cultural factors associated with it: educational opportunities, occupational motivators, feelings, beliefs, and self esteem of a nation. I think having a middle class, a strong middle class, is the backbone of a nation and without it, everything goes to h-e- double toothpicks. The youth see no point in education because there are no opportunities. The wealthy can go from excess to homelessness with a stock market failure. There IS no stability without a middle class... no point for lower classes to aspire to and nothing for the wealthy to fall back into, need be.

My .02 cents.
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Old Aug 11, 2011, 07:06 PM   #22
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Good analysis Hari's Chick. Your 2 cents is well thought out and welcome.
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Old Aug 11, 2011, 08:08 PM   #23
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That's ok Nancy, I/you can't help if you out there are not updated with this large tragedy, it really has nothing to do - anymore - with this one person being killed, it's simply 'we go out on the streets and get what we want from stores and burn what we want to burn' but the sad thing is like Lucy also said that also places are set to fire which have a huge history and that for instance the Asians join together to avoid people to attack their properties like shops or temples, so it's a huge mess.

Three young men have been killed and I am afraid that will also get some reaction.
If I read post#7 correctly, I said the same thing as Lucy, the poor hard working businessmen loosing their business'.

Now the Brit higher ups are arguing about what all the rioting was about the present Prime Minister says thugs(which eguals gangs), the opposing party says mainly opportunities for the middle class drying up with the financial strife worldwide.

How dare you insult me FP, I can read and our news is not that poor at reporting, there is more going on over here than me hanging on every detail of every word that is reported about the British riots(be glad that you are somewhat removed from what is happening in Britain and can pour over the news), did you happen to see the video of the one thug ripping off the other thug who was bleeding and injured during the rioting, walked right up to the kid and started taking things out of his backpack(several of the thugs as a matter of fact), animals with no values is what is happening all over the world, not just in England!
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Old Aug 11, 2011, 08:20 PM   #24
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How about the Millionheiress that was caught looting in the crowds yesterday, even the rich never have enough, animal/thug = person with no values!
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Old Aug 11, 2011, 10:19 PM   #25
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How dare you insult me FP, I can read and our news is not that poor at reporting, there is more going on over here than me hanging on every detail of every word that is reported about the British riots
Insult you? I was showing a friendly remark. If you join in a thread and have no time to read or see everything that is fine, we all haver other things to do so that is what I was aiming at, not an insult, my goodness why do I have to defend every word to a few women here all the time.

Apart from that, your comment shows you are not well informed.

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did you happen to see the video of the one thug ripping off the other thug who was bleeding and injured during the rioting, walked right up to the kid and started taking things out of his backpack(several of the thugs as a matter of fact), animals with no values is what is happening all over the world, not just in England!
If that video is your reflection of the UK problems I would call that somewhat short sighted.

You call the victim a thug, well he was not.

The guy Asyraf Haziq you see being robbed was just a student and young kids were after his bike and attacked him, then the others came who you see in the video who robbed him of his wallet and mobile, but he was not involved in the riots at all, he was a victim.

Just for your information. To call him a thug is just sad.
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 04:24 AM   #26
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Or... what one person is entitled to receive (social security for veterans, as an example) is kept to a bare minimum, so another person's investments can provide them luxuries they really do not deserve, need, and who's stock broker worked for.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but this one point I'm not sure I agree with. I really have no problem with wealthy people having more than they need, whether or not they got it by the sweat of their own brow or by having wise (or lucky!) investments. And I think we get near a very slippery slope when we talk about what people, rich OR poor, "deserve". I think people get into a lot of trouble when they start thinking they deserve to have things without working to get them. In fact, that's what I'm hearing from a lot of these looters and rioters - "I DESERVE this, so I'm going to TAKE it". Nope. If that's their philosophy, they DON'T deserve it.

But, like I said, other than that, I agree with most everything you said and enjoyed reading your well-organized thoughts on the matter.
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 04:30 AM   #27
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thoughts on the matter.
on the matter? This thread is supposed to be about what goes on in England, there is another one about the US problems.

Maybe we can stay on topic here and keep the US problems in that other thread.

http://www.beatlelinks.net/forums/sh...t=44145&page=6
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 04:37 AM   #28
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on the matter? This thread is about what goes on in England, there is another one about the US problems.

Maybe we can stay on topic here and keep the US problems in that other thread.
Excuse me, FPSHOT, I believe that HC was responding to darkhorse's comments about root causes of the rioting in the UK. It's not terribly off topic to expand those thoughts somewhat...it's not like we don't all have some of the same issues. My post tied it back to the UK issues, no reason to admonish anybody, relax a bit.
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 04:52 AM   #29
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From the news reports I've read this morning, it sounds like things may be calming down a bit...but that they're beefing up security for the weekend. I hope things stay quiet...
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 05:28 AM   #30
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relax a bit.
Oh I am so very relaxed Rell and have fun reading things here..
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 05:32 AM   #31
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Riots and looting are two separate issues, I believe. While people can and do riot because of a grievance, real or imagined; looting is almost solely caused by greed or a sense of entitlement. Civil unrest usually brings out not just people with a genuine care for the issue but also criminals and opportunists as well. It has really very little to do with class distinction.
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 05:39 AM   #32
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Civil unrest usually brings out not just people with a genuine care for the issue but also criminals and opportunists as well.
Very true and well stated.
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 05:45 AM   #33
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It has really very little to do with class distinction.
Nice one.

Maybe we can stick to the England issue here. Many people have been identified taking part in the riots and come from all kind of 'classes' from low to high so yes, it has little to do with putting people in boxes.
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 06:16 AM   #34
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Maybe we can stick to the England issue here.
??? Hib's post WAS about the England issue. Maybe we can stick to not telling people to stick to the topic when they already are.

Anyway, anybody got any links to good articles on the situation, particularly from UK sources?
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 06:22 AM   #35
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??? Hib's post WAS about the England issue. Maybe we can stick to not telling people to stick to the topic when they already are.
sigh.. I was saying it just because of Hib's post which finally was back to topic again and hoping it stays that way.

Here is a rather good overview of the developments in the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14501236
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 06:47 AM   #36
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Here is a rather good overview of the developments in the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14501236
Interesting, thanks...so the police and the politicians are arguing now as to whose fault it was and who gets to take the credit for restoring order. Yeah. Because THAT'S what's important...NOT.
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 06:51 AM   #37
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sigh.. I was saying it just because of Hib's post which finally was back to topic again and hoping it stays that way.

Here is a rather good overview of the developments in the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14501236
I knew what you meant, FP!

That BBC link is a good source, I think.
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 06:53 AM   #38
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Interesting, thanks...so the police and the politicians are arguing now as to whose fault it was and who gets to take the credit for restoring order. Yeah. Because THAT'S what's important...NOT.
Yes, of course. Now who's to pay for the whole - torched businesses and stolen merchandice and everything? Bet neither wants to take credit for THAT!
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 12:38 PM   #39
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Good analysis Hari's Chick. Your 2 cents is well thought out and welcome.
Thanks! I enjoyed your post, too. :)
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 12:43 PM   #40
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Excuse me, FPSHOT, I believe that HC was responding to darkhorse's comments about root causes of the rioting in the UK. It's not terribly off topic to expand those thoughts somewhat...
Thanks, Rell! :)
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