Got Veggies?

Originally Posted by Rellevart

I tend to find it's the veggies who get more defensive, actually. I don't think I've ever met a meat eater who's tried to convert a veggie, but veggies try to convert meat eaters all the time. I don't believe "statistics" on either side because you can find any statistic to support anything you want, if you look hard enough. I'm not a veggie, though I probably eat about 75% veggie meals, but as soon as somebody starts running towards me screaming "YOU EVIL HORRIBLE SLAUGHTERING HORRIBLE HORRRIBLE EVIL EVIL EVIL PERSON", that totally turns me off and makes me want to do the opposite of what they want me to do. There are better ways to get one's message across than being accusatory. (These comments are not personally directed towards you, HC, just because I quoted you...wanted to make sure you knew that. )

I love it when you eat bloody flesh, personally.

Originally Posted by Rellevart

I don't think I've ever met a meat eater who's tried to convert a veggie, but veggies try to convert meat eaters all the time. I don't believe "statistics" on either side because you can find any statistic to support anything you want, if you look hard enough.

Exactly. 83% of all statistics are made up.

Originally Posted by ringo_rama

Exactly. 83% of all statistics are made up.

I'm telling my college stat teacher you said that!

Originally Posted by Rellevart

I tend to find it's the veggies who get more defensive, actually. I don't think I've ever met a meat eater who's tried to convert a veggie, but veggies try to convert meat eaters all the time. I don't believe "statistics" on either side because you can find any statistic to support anything you want, if you look hard enough. I'm not a veggie, though I probably eat about 75% veggie meals, but as soon as somebody starts running towards me screaming "YOU EVIL HORRIBLE SLAUGHTERING HORRIBLE HORRRIBLE EVIL EVIL EVIL PERSON", that totally turns me off and makes me want to do the opposite of what they want me to do. There are better ways to get one's message across than being accusatory. (These comments are not personally directed towards you, HC, just because I quoted you...wanted to make sure you knew that. )

Believe me, meat eaters get aggressive towards vegetarians all the time.

I just find whenever a veggie thread is going, meat eaters tend to post about how meat eating is okay. Why? I do not understand that. If I started a thread about "elder abuse is wrong"... would it be okay for some posters to say "old people are annoying"? Or if I wrote "sad findings on the holocaust".. would it be an invitation for white male supremists to say it was exaggerated?

Maybe the reason we vegetarians feel emotive about the subject is that I do not "like" animals... I really love them. I love them and they are helpless. Have you ever been in a situaiton where you felt helpless? It sucks.

If you saw someone hitting someone for being Jewish... or killing an elderly person because they wanted something from them... doesn't that make you sad, Rell? Well, I feel just as sad seeing an innocent animal's life taken when there are other options available. There is no "good" reason to kill and eat animals. You say statistics are fabricated. When George was ill, I read a lot frm Mayo Clinic for example. Heaps on eliminating meat there ~ soas to avoid cancer and heart disease.

If you decide to eat meat or not... or if you eat meat as a reaction to vegetarian commentary... well, then what are my options? When I see a thread about killing creatures I happen to feel emotional about ... should I tenper my voice or opionions so as not to offend? Is that speaking my truth or compromising? My goal is not to offend, my goal is not to drive you into Ronald McDonalds arms... yet... am I expected to alter my soul's truth for other's comfort levels? If that is so, on what philosophical level does that stop? So...I should not be emotive for animals.... am I allowed to be for
misogynists? White supremists? If we must temper our Spiritual Truths as we understand them... who's dialogue are we following?

I fel sorry you are inclined to 'react' into meat eating. That is a shame. All I can say is that Sri Yukteswar said ... when one feels critisized, introspect to see if there is truth in what is being said. If you feel there is truth, do not be afraid to change and fear your sense of self is shaken in admitting you have been wrong. If you feel you are right, then you can remain cmfortable with your sense of self. You will evolve as you see spiritually necessary. You will grow according to your own truth. I suggest to be open to the dialogue of descenting opionions without just reacting.

Maybe you will say I am reacting. I have examined this for many years and follow what I know to be my truth. Vegetarianism. In my religion talking about eating animals is as bad as sacreligious acts against Christ. In my religion, all souls are sacred.

I do not really know what more to say. Even hearing about people eating meat... makes me so sad. I tend to hate veggie threads for that very reason. Still, I feel it necessary to speak on behalf of the creatuers who cannot speak for themselves. (My kitten is looking at me like he is proud of me right now....)

Well normally I wouldn't post in a pro-veggie thread, but the person who started it did ask:

So I pass the question on to you.. are any of you guys veggie? Because of Paul? Why or Why not?

I didn't think I needed a flame proof suit. ;)

I would never wave a piece of meat in your face and tell you to get over it. I would never serve you meat or take you somewhere where meat is served. Just like I would hate it if someone smoked in my house or tried to serve me alcohol.

But the important question is, why is this thread still in the music section?

Originally Posted by VersusBatman

I didn't think I needed a flame proof suit. ;)

i am sorry you feel I flamed you. I am not feeling aggressive. Actually, I am feeling the opposite- sad.

Really think.

Originally Posted by kmac

The fast food industry changed everything in regards to animal harvesting. The conditions in which cows, pigs, and chickens are raised is appalling. The fast food industries dictate the manner in which our animal food supply is raised because they wield the most monetary control.

The cattle farms are forced to maximize their marginal profits by raising animals in extremely close quarters amongst their own waste products. In addition the cattle are fed with portions of the remains of slaughter, again to maximize marginal profits.

The waste that is generated from these animal farms are an environmental nightmare of massive proportions.

If anyone is interested in further reading on this topic, I highly recommend The Fast Food Nation which does a good job of revealing some of the behind the scenes operations of the multi-billion dollar fast food industry. A classic example of the tail wagging the dog.

I too struggle with occasional needs to consume meat, mostly poultry. But after becoming more aware of the tactics used to deliver low cost fast food, I am on a fast track to swear off the industry from my further patronage. But it is difficult I must admit.

excellent points

Nice to see you two agree again

Lorraine, I believe you have raised "quote" .. excellent points.. "unquote" on this thread here.

There will never be a time that the world will exist of only veggie people or non veggie people..

Yet, to tell the world about the value of animal life is important. Many have been convinced by listening and thinking about it.

All the Yogis of the Himalayas have done it for centuries and have not been able to keep all of the non-veggie population to change their life style.

But to at least continue to point out how any form of life is life is what also the Gurus have done.

Respect between the two sides and some form of understanding is essential. We have had threads like this before and I think compared to earlier ones, this one is a rather nice example of conversation. It just remains to be a touchy issue.

Originally Posted by ringo_rama

Exactly. 83% of all statistics are made up.

it would not surprise me if the % is even higher.

Anyone can set up a website and shout things.

Originally Posted by Rellevart

I tend to find it's the veggies who get more defensive, actually. I don't think I've ever met a meat eater who's tried to convert a veggie, but veggies try to convert meat eaters all the time.

I think that the word "defensive" is not really the way to say it. It seems logical to me that the convincing part is at the veggie side for the reasons outlined here in this thread. Just like it is with smokers who will not really encourage non-smokers to start smoking and the same with many other examples.

Speaking from my own past experiences, when approached by well meaning Veggies and presented with logical pro arguments, I feel a sense of guilt which sometimes manifests itself into defensiveness for my meat eating ways.I shouldn't feel guilty, like millions of others I was raised a meat eater.

But, the more I educate myself, the more assured I become of my need to make changes in my diet and do all that I can to no longer support certain business practices of the food industry. All the while on my path, I try to not lose my objectivity because I do realize that nearly all information is presented with bias.

My education continues.

Originally Posted by FPSHOT

I think that the word "defensive" is not really the way to say it. It seems logical to me that the convincing part is at the veggie side for the reasons outlined here in this thread. Just like it is with smokers who will not really encourage non-smokers to start smoking and the same with many other examples.

Apples and oranges FPSHOT. Before i became a vegan i was an omnivore. I know from personal experience that the objections and complaints raised as rebuttals are insubstantial and irrelevant at best. And if i may... I also find it a bit curious that there are perhaps others here that seek relief and attempt to frame these disagreements only in an "us versus them" fashion.

But your observations are spot on.

As for others bemoaning the inaccuracy and fallibility of statistics, some things need to be said here.

There is a difference between what is commonly called descriptive statistics and what is best considered disinformation, misinformation, propaganda and distortions, and the sources that would disseminate such false and misleading statements. After all it is hard mathematical science. So while i laugh at the apparent absurdity of ones closing ones eyes and blaming flawed statistics for all that appears to be in error in this world, and for passing judgement upon others, i cry that someone would think this important and necessary, instead of thinking of the animals.

Originally Posted by iFrog

Apples and oranges FPSHOT. Before i became a vegan i was an omnivore. I know from personal experience that the objections and complaints raised as rebuttals are insubstantial and irrelevant at best. And if i may... I also find it a bit curious that there are perhaps others here that seek relief and attempt to frame these disagreements only in an "us versus them" fashion.

Apples and oranges are both good food and are both fruit and both mostly round..

but you missed my point probably which can be my writing. What I try to say is that on this thread people write who are vegan or veggie or who are non of both. And some of the vegetarians/vegan explain about the how and why that they became one…. And again I say…b e c a m e

To say something IS insubstantial and irrelevant to me mostly is not more than a personal observation and not a written definition each person whill agree on. I do understand what you mean, but in my opinion what you consider insubstantial and irrelevant can be the total oposite of my 'experiences' towards rebuttals (thanks for the new word, never heard of it)

Now… the original question was if ‘we’ became veggie/vegan because of Paul.

Well, for instance myself… No absolutely not. I became vegetarian because I listened to explanations about things I did not know. And for instance the things Hari’s Chick writes here are the ones which made me veggie. Because of the way it is presented, just like the Yogis of the Himalayas have done it for centuries... in good harmony and without pressure.

George never told anyone "you MUST read about the Eastern Philosphy".. he gave people books to read and he gave us "My Sweet Lord" which was so new to the Western World in 1970 and is so common now in music thanks to him. How many people were vegan in 1953 and how many are now and how does that come? Mouth to mouth conversations. (I don't want answers about the numbers btw LOL)

So my point is not about having two sides, or comparing it to other issues, but.. to explain that if you do not start a conversation about things, nothing changes, just like in the other issues I mentioned.

Had I not known what I learned, I would maybe still be what you and probably most of the people here were or are .. non-veggie/vegan.

Sure, I can forget the apples and oranges and write like you did and say “Eating meat is barbaric and cruel. It doesn't matter how one was raised, it's just plain wrong and unhealthy.” If I am right you are vegetarian since about 1989, so before all that – unless it is your birthyear - maybe you fitted in your own description also about it’s environmental aspects and about thinking of animals? I don’t mean this rude, but those remarks in conversations like this would never have even make me think of becoming a vegetarian. It probably would have turned me away from reading the thread.

So, something made you change and that is also for instance what Hari's Chick is trying to explain... sharing information...

And you know…I really am not here to raise fingers and say what people should eat, I don’t give a toss to be honest, but just like in all the other discussions here it is good to learn and share and that was the reason behind my post and as for statistics ... yes Information is much more important than numbers and that is what is shown here in some posts. Just to learn from it and think.

Originally Posted by FPSHOT

Apples and oranges are both good food and are both fruit and both mostly round..

Thank you FPSHOT. Good points to be brutally honest i misread your post as being nothing more than a watered down endorsement of the rather listless and unprovoked veggie bashing going on in this thread.

but you missed my point probably which can be my writing. What I try to say is that on this thread people write who are vegan or veggie or who are non of both. And some of the vegetarians/vegan explain about the how and why that they became one…. And again I say…b e c a m e[

Again thanks for the response, i appreciate your honesty. And again i plead that i misread your reply, and posted what amounted to an emotional reply. I missed the twist you put on the word became, for various reasons.

To say something IS insubstantial and irrelevant to me mostly is not more than a personal observation and not a written definition each person whill agree on. I do understand what you mean, but in my opinion what you consider insubstantial and irrelevant can be the total oposite of my 'experiences' towards rebuttals (thanks for the new word, never heard of it)

Excellent point, thanks for taking the time to explain this to me. I am basically just trying to say in a sugar coated and very round-about fashion that the others have taken the time and gone to the trouble to post worthless replies, poisoning the well, and willfully ignoring the real and deeper issues. Nothing new here. Hence my usage of the word insubstantial, which i thought was rather direct. When i say irrelevant i had hoped that the opportunity would arise for me to offer a proper and coherent deconstruction.

Now… the original question was if ‘we’ became veggie/vegan because of Paul.

And i answered that question with what i thought was a bare minimum of fanfare and finger pointing.

Well, for instance myself… No absolutely not. I became vegetarian because I listened to explanations about things I did not know. And for instance the things Hari’s Chick writes here are the ones which made me veggie. Because of the way it is presented, just like the Yogis of the Himalayas have done it for centuries... in good harmony and without pressure.

You are a veggie?! Well that is good news! We are more alike than you realize, perhaps it appears that i post things in a dangerous fashion or in some sort of fit of jealousy. I am the only vegan i know, for instance.

George never told anyone "you MUST read about the Eastern Philosphy".. he gave people books to read and he gave us "My Sweet Lord" which was so new to the Western World in 1970 and is so common now in music thanks to him. How many people were vegan in 1953 and how many are now and how does that come? Mouth to mouth conversations. (I don't want answers about the numbers btw LOL)

Good questions you raise FPSHOT they certainly are not remote or difficult at all, in any sense of the word. The George point i was going to raise up in another way. The Beatles were if anything open minded and didn't really try to hide anything.

So my point is not about having two sides, or comparing it to other issues, but.. to explain that if you do not start a conversation about things, nothing changes, just like in the other issues I mentioned.

I know but i was looking at the slippery slope aspect of some other statements here, made by others in a careless fashion. Agreeing to disagree just doesn't cut it for me, or in the real world. Again my opinion. I like looking at the other side of the coin.. to me it's part of being responsible and acting in an evenhanded and conscientious manner.

Had I not known what I learned, I would maybe still be what you and probably most of the people here were or are .. non-veggie/vegan.

Excellent point not to be taken lightly. Guilty as charged... errr actually this bothers me alot. If not for my curious nature and access to the Internet, i doubt i would have ever picked up Silent Spring, The Mad Cowboy, Diet for a Small Planet or anything by Peter Singer.

Sure, I can forget the apples and oranges and write like you did and say “Eating meat is barbaric and cruel.

A fact is a fact FPSHOT, you seem bent on just glossing over what has been lightly touched upon here. Once again that statement in particular wasn't directed at you, you shouldn't feel the need to offer up a vile defense and a parade of "snide" comments that would get us nowhere, real fast. In fact it was meant for someone else, who hasn't returned to the fray, and it's a statement that doesn't lie, or mislead and it was an honest statement, no hidden agenda, no mind games, meant in a sincere fashion... but somehow it becomes obvious to me that my suggestions would be routinely ignored or poo-pooed, not given proper consideration. What do you suggest that i do, just look the other way or pat somebody on the head who regularly chows down on the latest junk food concoction or doesn't know, or worse yet, doesn't even care what the inside of a slaughterhouse looks like? That is an obscene suggestion. Once again it's a both sides of the coin issue.

It doesn't matter how one was raised, it's just plain wrong and unhealthy.”

I am so glad you have brought this very point up. I do have a little "country boy" in me. That is why i zeroed in on this rather hollow excuse to justify the mindless consumption of animal products. Now i know better.

If I am right you are vegetarian since about 1989, so before all that – unless it is your birthyear - maybe you fitted in your own description also about it’s environmental aspects and about thinking of animals?

Actually 1989 was a very good year for me. Think Limp Bizkit my friend. Was that meant as an insult FPSHOT? That seems to me to be a rather unnecessary and inconsistent remark.. And it seems to me you are yourself falling victim to the notion that double-standards will somehow save the day and are necessary here. I thought that is exactly what this thread is not about. Anyway... Exactly. I lived a rather pathetic waste of a life before i became veggie, having been a victim of the SAD. As for my vegetarianism, I would be more than happy to give you a brief rundown here. I basically have been vegan for 5 1/2 years now, lacto-ovo for the approxmate 1 year previous to that and ate a mostly lacto-ovo with the occasional fish for 2 1/2 years previous to that. Finally i just got tired of it.

I don’t mean this rude, but those remarks in conversations like this would never have even make me think of becoming a vegetarian. It probably would have turned me away from reading the thread.

I'm sorry you feel that way, i do have my reasons. If nothing else i am being honest and not trying to avoid the issues at hand. And i am not afraid to trot my reasons and my justifications out for a public inspection.

So, something made you change and that is also for instance what Hari's Chick is trying to explain... sharing information...

Yes. And that is precisely what i am doing, sharing information in the hopes that someone will see that i am committed to being veggie, and that this will not change anytime soon. Instead of offering witless rebuttals and provocative statements, would it be too much of a stretch for someone to say "i'll look into that" or "maybe i should practice the MeatOut Mondays thing" or "what harm could it do?" It's so easy being veggie, it's silly... i mean i don't know why it scares so many people, and what it is that prompts them into fits of anger and irresponsible reactions.

Unfortunately i live in the real world.

In closing let me quote John Lennon here, his remarks always touch my soul.

If everyone demanded peace instead of another television set, then there'd be peace.

Words to live by.

In my search for veggie information I found the VEGGIE GLOBAL website, which seems to be a good source for information in transitioning to and maintaining a vegetarian lifestyle.

And this GoVeg website as well.

A fact is a fact FPSHOT, you seem bent on just glossing over what has been lightly touched upon here. Once again that statement in particular wasn't directed at you, you shouldn't feel the need to offer up a vile defense and a parade of "snide" comments that would get us nowhere, real fast. In fact it was meant for someone else, who hasn't returned to the fray, and it's a statement that doesn't lie, or mislead and it was an honest statement, no hidden agenda, no mind games, meant in a sincere fashion...

oh I know it was not directed at me but that was not my issue and I am not defensive here.

Thanks for writing back. I waited a bit to reply to be sure you were finished editing

but somehow it becomes obvious to me that my suggestions would be routinely ignored or poo-pooed, not given proper consideration. What do you suggest that i do, just look the other way or pat somebody on the head who regularly chows down on the latest junk food concoction or doesn't know, or worse yet, doesn't even care what the inside of a slaughterhouse looks like?

well I think that because of the way you respond with the 'definitions' like I quoted in my previous post, you did not get the feedback and attention you hoped for.

What I suggest? You know... I do not mean to tell you what to do but... this is an interesting thread and I just like things to go well also for those who just read all this. So just because I care about this subject I respond, but I am no leading party here. So what I suggest? Well since you ask; simply to change the atmosphere of your writing. But that is not up to me but purely a suggestion.

Was that meant as an insult FPSHOT? That seems to me to be a rather unnecessary and inconsistent remark.. And it seems to me you are yourself falling victim to the notion that double-standards will somehow save the day and are necessary here. I thought that is exactly what this thread is not about.

no it was not meant as an insult. What I mean is that now you are vegan you take a certain position whereas only a few years ago you were one who would have been talked to, the way you wrote to some people here. I am interested to have as many people as possible join this conversation. Yet it is my personal opinion that the 'cowboy' way of writing will not attract people.

would it be too much of a stretch for someone to say "i'll look into that" or "maybe i should practice the MeatOut Mondays thing" or "what harm could it do?" It's so easy being veggie, it's silly... i mean i don't know why it scares so many people, and what it is that prompts them into fits of anger and irresponsible reactions.

what scares 'so many people' is not the issues of being a veggie, but in this case here in my opinion it is the way you choose to write your beliefs. It would not make me 'look in to it' for even a second. We have had conversations like this many times here over the years and it always used to end because of the language used and how non-veggies would write how much they like to eat meat and then responses would be made in a similar way and only in my opinion, as much as I love a tough conversation when needed, on this subject here at Links it only made people walk away from the thread and that is just a great pity. It's better to keep the conversation going and still to have the actual issue on hand. At least, that is my opinion. But anyone is free to write what they like. Some things I would wanna write here at times would make me get banned LOL.

Maybe and again this is no insult, maybe just compare the way you try to make your point with the way Hari's Chick for instance does it and I am not promoting her here but the approach is entirely different and has made people listen and look in to it.

Originally Posted by kmac

In my search for veggie information I found the VEGGIE GLOBAL website, which seems to be a good source for information in transitioning to and maintaining a vegetarian lifestyle.

And this GoVeg website as well.

Great sites...thanks for posting them.