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Old Jul 09, 2011, 12:47 PM   #1
4iiiis
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Default Brian & John: an item? Exploring their infamous "affair"

Now I'm not trying to stir things up and get people in a hissy-fit, but I came across this article that addresses Brian & John's trip to Spain after Julian was born. It's been a subject of controversy for decades, and one that the trash-talking Albert Goldman used to sell millions of books by declaring the trip was decidedly romantic. But this article refutes those accusations in a very convincing manner. Personally, I don't believe John got in bed with Brian, and this writer logically states:
Quote:
"...John Lennon, with his determined desire to be blunt and honest at all costs, would have come out years ago."
That to me makes alot of sense. Years later, with the stigma of homosexuality waning, John securely with Yoko and having fathered two sons, I think he would have been quite candid about it if anything had happened. The fact that he didn't pretty much says it all. Nothing happened. No story. Take THAT Albert Goldman!


Here's the entire article:
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/39559920/

and the excerpt about the "affair" (in two parts)
thoughts??

Quote:
Did Lennon have a homosexual affair?

The greatest myth and mystery in Lennon’s legacy is whether he had same-sex encounters — particularly with Beatles manager Brian Epstein. Many fans, authors, and screenwriters — amateur sleuths all — believe they know what really happened. But in my estimation, if it were indeed valid, John Lennon, with his determined desire to be blunt and honest at all costs, would have come out years ago.

If you fast forward the tape on John Lennon’s life, this story surfaces to the world at large shortly after his death, but it was leaked early and often by those on the musical scene in Liverpool.
First of all, some background. Malcolm Evans would have stood in front of a freight train to protect John Lennon’s life, so it will come as no surprise that the lanky Mal was enraged at the accusations that were flying in 1965. It all began with a vacation.

Several weeks after the birth of his son Julian, Lennon took off with Beatles manager and impresario Brian Epstein on a twelve-day vacation to Spain. The pair left on April 28, 1963, for a simple retreat filled with sun and rest. The holiday, however, quickly brought about whispers and innuendo that continue into this century. The question was, and for many still is: Did John Lennon have a gay affair with Brian Epstein?

Was Lennon the most interesting Beatle?

The whispers were mostly local until John struck out quite famously at the 21st birthday party of Paul McCartney. Bob Wooler, a popular local deejay and Lennon friend, said something to John about the Spanish trip. Lennon, ugly drunk, answered with his fists and pounded Wooler. The episode made the papers, but there was no mention of why John hit him. Instead, Tony Barrow, the Beatles’ careful and wise press secretary, managed to spin the story so there was no mention of any potential homosexual tryst. In the end, John apologized to Wooler and blamed it all on too much drink. Years later, he would say that he made his first big national headlines in Great Britain “when I punched a friend who called me a fag.”
So, what really happened in Spain?

While it is common knowledge today that Brian Epstein was a homosexual, it is important to note that homosexuality was illegal in the United Kingdom in the mid-sixties. “The love that dare not speak its name” was scorned by most of the world, in fact, and so Epstein was always extremely discreet about his sexual preference. He disclosed his innermost secret to only a few people, and to only one member of the media that I know of, namely, myself.

On a late night during the 1965 tour, Brian invited me to his cottage room at the posh Beverly Hills Hotel. We talked about the Beatles and had some food. Most of his conversation was about his problems with John. He had a sense of losing control of the band and he was clearly worried. Toward the end of the evening, he brought out some wine and said, in a toast, “Here’s to you and me.” With that, he put his hand on mine. And rather abruptly, but kindly, I called it a night.
Rather naïve at the time, I failed to connect my social time with Brian Epstein to the story I had heard about Spain from Mal Evans a few months earlier. In recounting the entire story in Nassau, Evans had complained to me that Lennon was still aggravated by the rumors, and so was he:
“He’s a man, you know, John is, and it’s awful what they were saying about him.”
Mal’s anger, his detailed storytelling of the episode, and Epstein’s hand on mine along with his toast “to you and me,” all finally clicked later that night. So I wondered, like many have for decades, was it true? Did John Lennon and Brian Epstein have physical sexual relations with each other?

It was a question that was on many minds within the Beatles’ circle, and to a lesser degree within the Liverpool music scene. Later, it would be written about by the Lennon biographer, Albert Goldman, in his book “The Lives of John Lennon,” and it was the focus of the screenplay and feature film, “The Hours and Times.” Goldman recklessly stated in his book that John used sex with Brian Epstein to advance his career as the self-proclaimed leader of the Beatles. It was a tawdry assumption, designed most likely to sell books, yet it doesn’t make sense in light of the fact that John was already the band’s unquestioned leader. Furthermore, Lennon’s key power and tool in terms of leverage was his talent. “The Hours and Times” also leads the viewer to believe that Epstein’s famous infatuation with John Lennon may have been requited while in Barcelona. Its portrayal of the four-day interlude is more subtle than Goldman’s take, but it does have Lennon and Epstein practically flirting with each other, while leaving the big question itself unanswered.

But Lennon’s friends and associates have their own views on the matter, based on better primary evidence than either Goldman or the countless other speculators have had access to.
Beatles’ insider Tony Bramwell, there from the beginning in Liverpool with John, dismisses it all angrily, saying, “I don’t think it ever happened. I think it is furious, pure bulls---.” Bramwell, who worked for Epstein and called him “Eppy,” explains it this way:
“Brian was close to all of us. He never came on to any of us. He was a very private gay person. Homosexuality was illegal. The terror of being found out was one of his main horrors. Revelation of it would have destroyed everything. It was, after all, a jailing offense.”

Tony Barrow, the Beatles’ extraordinary spin doctor, has his own take on the Spanish getaway.
“No one really knows. John was daring, ever blunt, so determined to be different. I would never say, ‘never.’ But knowing both of them, I would say it never happened. There is no question that Brian was attracted to John in a sexual way; Brian was a sensitive man. His cheeks would go purple when Lennon was tough with him, and John could be gruff. He was stand-offish quite a lot, which was John’s way of saying, ‘I’m not gay, you can’t love me, but you can be my best friend.’ But remember, there was pressure. John was the reason that Brian Epstein got involved with the Beatles in the first place. Brian had a strong bond with him, but he also knew that his homosexuality itself could shatter the Beatles. He may have wanted John, but as far as I know, it only happened in his dreams.”
The timing of the trip was a source of family anguish. Lennon had decided to go to Spain shortly after the birth of Julian. Instead of staying home with the newborn, he elected to take a vacation.
continued...part 2/2

Last edited by 4iiiis : Jul 09, 2011 at 12:50 PM.
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Old Jul 09, 2011, 12:48 PM   #2
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Default Brian & John: an item? Exploring their infamous "affair" (part 2/2)

continued from Part 1/2:
Quote:

For some, the question of whether or not John Lennon and Brian Epstein had sexual relations on the trip to Spain begins with the question of why they even went on holiday together in the first place. Tony Barrow explains the reason for the trip in terms of timing and other circumstances in John’s life:
“In those days, if your girlfriend got pregnant, it was quite simple — you got married. [John] wasn’t happy about the baby, although I knew he began months later to really love Julian. But the fact that he had to marry was disturbing to him. His decision to go to Spain, although very selfish, was a ‘f--- you’ to all the things that were happening to him. It’s kind of ironic because months later at a West End pub called the Speakeasy, we were chatting after a recording session. Both of us sensitively talked about our infant children, and how good it felt to be fathers. John loved Julian, but he didn’t love the circumstances surrounding his birth.”
May Pang, who saw all sides of John Lennon, dismisses the speculation surrounding John and Brian as nothing but revisionist history:
“The likelihood of John having an affair with Brian Epstein is absurd, and actually impossible. Even when Phil Spector once tied up and threatened male sex against him, John was terrified.”

One thing is certain: if John were alive today, surely he would relish the debate and do his best to leave us guessing, as he tried to do in a 1973 interview:
“I went on holiday to Spain with Brian — which started all the rumors that he and I were having a love affair, but not quite. It was never consummated. But we did have a pretty intense relationship. And it was my first experience with someone I knew was a homosexual. He admitted it to me. We had this holiday together because Cyn was pregnant and we left her with the baby ... lots of funny stories, you know. We used to sit in cafes and Brian would look at all the boys and I would ask, ‘Do you like that one? Do you like this one?’ It was just the combination of our closeness and the trip that started the rumors.”

Cynics who fan the flames of rumor would say that of course Lennon would deny the gossip. But the ultimate truth is in the single revelation that Brian Epstein himself offered to me the night after our uncomfortable encounter in his cottage room. The Beatles were performing that night at Balboa Park in San Diego. I walked up to Brian as he stood outside the makeshift dressing room. His face turned beet red, but I broke the ice by saying, “Thanks for the time last night. I really enjoyed it.” Awkward moments are never a pleasure, but in an effort to show my support, I whispered to him, “Did all that talk about the Spanish trip upset you?” He responded, “Larry, I love John, but nothing (pause) nothing happened. It was simply an impossibility.” I may have been the first and only reporter ever to pose that question to Brian Epstein.

If I knew at the time what a fable would develop from the trip to Spain, I would have pursued the story more aggressively. But in the journalism of the sixties, such talk or even the suggestion of it, was off-limits. And besides, Epstein’s brief characterization of the trip couldn’t have been more emphatic, or sincere. Meanwhile, the story of the Spanish trip would not surface in the general public for years. In retrospect, Brian Epstein’s answer to my question — which I have never reported until now — provides all the truth anyone needs to know.

Last edited by 4iiiis : Jul 09, 2011 at 12:51 PM.
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Old Jul 09, 2011, 01:04 PM   #3
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Hey 4iiiis, what if you copied & pasted part 2 into a reply on this thread, rather than having it in a separate one? It would be tidier for people to reply that way, I think.

Anyway, I go back and forth on whether I think anything happened, because really I don't care either way. I do think that if it did happen, it would have been out of curiosity on John's part, and not some Machiavellian thing.

What's most persuasive to me -- right now, at least -- is reading that Larry Kane flat-out asked Brian Epstein about it and he said nothing happened.
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Old Jul 09, 2011, 01:19 PM   #4
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Ugh, the media needs to stop using May Pang as a go-to source for every Lennon article. Brian Epstein was dead before May began her ultimately insignificant role in John's life.

Quote:
May Pang, who saw all sides of John Lennon, dismisses the speculation surrounding John and Brian as nothing but revisionist history:
“The likelihood of John having an affair with Brian Epstein is absurd, and actually impossible. Even when Phil Spector once tied up and threatened male sex against him, John was terrified.”
No sh*t, Sherlock, who wouldn't be terrified of getting raped? That's like saying, "There's no way that guy would ever go to the bear exhibit at the zoo; one time he was hiking and a grizzly bear charged at him and he was terrified." Go make up another "forgotten" story and publish another trashy book or something, May.
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Old Jul 09, 2011, 01:23 PM   #5
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Ringo, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel about May Pang.
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Old Jul 09, 2011, 01:24 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianCadence View Post
Hey 4iiiis, what if you copied & pasted part 2 into a reply on this thread, rather than having it in a separate one? It would be tidier for people to reply that way, I think.

Anyway, I go back and forth on whether I think anything happened, because really I don't care either way. I do think that if it did happen, it would have been out of curiosity on John's part, and not some Machiavellian thing.

What's most persuasive to me -- right now, at least -- is reading that Larry Kane flat-out asked Brian Epstein about it and he said nothing happened.
Merged the two. One thread on the subject is enough.
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Old Jul 09, 2011, 01:40 PM   #7
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Quote:
It was a question that was on many minds within the Beatles’ circle, and to a lesser degree within the Liverpool music scene. Later, it would be written about by the Lennon biographer, Albert Goldman, in his book “The Lives of John Lennon,” and it was the focus of the screenplay and feature film, “The Hours and Times.” Goldman recklessly stated in his book that John used sex with Brian Epstein to advance his career as the self-proclaimed leader of the Beatles. It was a tawdry assumption, designed most likely to sell books, yet it doesn’t make sense in light of the fact that John was already the band’s unquestioned leader. Furthermore, Lennon’s key power and tool in terms of leverage was his talent. “The Hours and Times” also leads the viewer to believe that Epstein’s famous infatuation with John Lennon may have been requited while in Barcelona. Its portrayal of the four-day interlude is more subtle than Goldman’s take, but it does have Lennon and Epstein practically flirting with each other, while leaving the big question itself unanswered.
How did that Albert Goldman sleep at night?
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Old Jul 09, 2011, 02:19 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by 4iiiis View Post
Now I'm not trying to stir things up and get people in a hissy-fit,
Aw, come on... yes you are!! (j/k)

I kinda like the ambiguity surrounding this whole issue... I think it's possible they hooked up, but I think it's probable that they didn't. I like what Tony Bramwell had to say... I'm pretty much of that mind:

Quote:
John was daring, ever blunt, so determined to be different. I would never say, ‘never.’ But knowing both of them, I would say it never happened.
And even though John was pretty honest about many aspects of his life, one's homosexual experiences was not something everyone liked to talk about publicly in 1980. I think it would have been cool if it happened... just my puerile interest, though!
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Old Jul 09, 2011, 04:23 PM   #9
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I mean, it could have happened. Why did John get so angry he had to smack down that dude at Paul's party? Of course, he WAS drunk...and we all know how that went---> ---> ---> ---> --->

Yeah. Does anyone have any other info regarding that night of this incident between John and Bob Wooler? I'm interested!
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Old Jul 09, 2011, 04:37 PM   #10
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There's a whole article on that in an old Beatles Monthly I have...I'll see if I can dig it up.
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Old Jul 09, 2011, 04:41 PM   #11
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Old Jul 09, 2011, 06:03 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple Scruff View Post
I mean, it could have happened. Why did John get so angry he had to smack down that dude at Paul's party?
Yes, that's in my "maybe it did happen" column too.
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Old Jul 10, 2011, 07:56 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple Scruff View Post
I mean, it could have happened. Why did John get so angry he had to smack down that dude at Paul's party? Of course, he WAS drunk...and we all know how that went---> ---> ---> ---> --->

Yeah. Does anyone have any other info regarding that night of this incident between John and Bob Wooler? I'm interested!
OMG! That is the BEST use of avatars I have ever seen-you're HILARIOUS!!!
Good job Scruff!
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Old Jul 10, 2011, 08:39 AM   #14
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First of all (even if it's out of subject) I don't think that May played an "insignificant role" in John's life

Then, I never believed in the rumours about John having had an affair with Brian. John was always open-minded to all subjects (feminism, drugs etc.), so I'm sure he hadn't covered it, if "something" had happened between Brian and him. Brian may have been feel attracted to John, but certainly not the other way round. John wasn't homo or even bi-sexual, which is enough times claimed by the women and wives he had .

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Old Jul 10, 2011, 09:34 AM   #15
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John wasn't homo or even bi-sexual, which is enough times claimed by the women and wives he had .
The way I see it, you don't have to be gay or bi to experiment sexually in your early 20s. And we know that John was daring and willing to try just about anything. And the last person to know what actually happened in Spain would be Cyn... no offense to her, but John did keep a lot of secrets from her. I still think nothing (or maybe just a little something) happened... but, when it comes to John, ANYTHING's possible! And that's just another reason why we love him...
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Old Jul 10, 2011, 10:08 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Maia 66 View Post
The way I see it, you don't have to be gay or bi to experiment sexually in your early 20s. And we know that John was daring and willing to try just about anything. And the last person to know what actually happened in Spain would be Cyn... no offense to her, but John did keep a lot of secrets from her. I still think nothing (or maybe just a little something) happened... but, when it comes to John, ANYTHING's possible! And that's just another reason why we love him...
I tend to concur w this post. But, I always thought John had some bi-curious tendencies. His body language seemed to change in different company. I remember watching him light a cigarette in Let it Be so incredibly effeminately and I thought to myself, this is the tough kid in the tough clubs that was in the leather jacket in Hamburg? Now I understand what a prejudicial or stereotypical statement that is. But stereotypes aren't necessarily wrong. John was certainly not a man's man. I even considered that Yoko may have been a "beard". Hearing Elton and his band talk about Elton's insatiable sexual appetite in the hayday, if John didn't have a tryst w Elton, well, then there can be no validity to any of this speculation. But frankly, I've put about 30 seconds of thought into this entire topic.
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Old Jul 10, 2011, 10:57 AM   #17
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I remember reading John say that he always wanted to have a gay following, and that when he came to New York and hung out with Warhol and, several years later, with Elton, he was hoping that would raise his standing in the gay community.

When you look at 'em, none of the lads are/were what we would call a "man's man"...
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Old Jul 10, 2011, 11:11 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maia 66 View Post
The way I see it, you don't have to be gay or bi to experiment sexually in your early 20s. And we know that John was daring and willing to try just about anything. And the last person to know what actually happened in Spain would be Cyn... no offense to her, but John did keep a lot of secrets from her. I still think nothing (or maybe just a little something) happened... but, when it comes to John, ANYTHING's possible! And that's just another reason why we love him...
Hi Maia

Yes, John liked to try many things out, but having an affair with Brian is something else. It's true that John didn't tell everything to Cyn. Still, according to her book, John was very upset about those rumours and even regretted the trip with Brian. I mean, he couldn't have laughed at the rumours and don't be so affected. Also his sister Julia Baird writes in her book she can't imagine John having a relation with men. I guess, it just wasn't his cup of tea. Of course, he had friends among gays like Elton John, like other artists too, so what ? He just didn't care and was very open, that's it.

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Old Jul 12, 2011, 03:50 PM   #19
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You know, I found an article on the Bob Wooler incident. The way the books talk about it, you'd think John near-killed him, but this article offered some perspective. Apparently, John was besotted with guilt over having hurt him at all and sent him flowers and paid his medical bill and all that. Also, he and Bob resumed their friendship and Bob was one of the first people to say something immediately after John died. He called him the Hemingway of his generation or some such...

I tell you, the more you read ACTUAL facts the less inclined I am to buy into all these horrible books. However, I still say the Brian and John supposed fling is one matter that could have happened, you never know. It's a fact that Brian had a crush on John, but the rest is all just speculation I guess.
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Old Jul 14, 2011, 12:48 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Apple Scruff View Post
You know, I found an article on the Bob Wooler incident. The way the books talk about it, you'd think John near-killed him, but this article offered some perspective. Apparently, John was besotted with guilt over having hurt him at all and sent him flowers and paid his medical bill and all that. Also, he and Bob resumed their friendship and Bob was one of the first people to say something immediately after John died. He called him the Hemingway of his generation or some such...

I tell you, the more you read ACTUAL facts the less inclined I am to buy into all these horrible books. However, I still say the Brian and John supposed fling is one matter that could have happened, you never know. It's a fact that Brian had a crush on John, but the rest is all just speculation I guess.
Hi Scruffie

Thank's for this addition; didn't know that John and Bob resumed their friendship, althought I knew that John deeply regreted his over-reaction. According to what I read, John after all his rumours about his trip with Brian was suddenly afraid that he COULD be gay (his own words), so the remark of Bob was just too much for him.

Yes, no doubt that Brian had a crush on John (who can blame him ), but it's certainly wasn't the case vice-versa. As you say, the rest is just speculation, which was blown-up in "horrible" books after John's passing.

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