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Old Dec 18, 2012, 05:44 AM   #41
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I agree. I'd much rather have the mentally ill pick up a bible
I wouldn't want a mentally ill person picking up a Bible and reading Leviticus. It's nothing but a bunch of instructions on how to cut people up and kill them if they're sinners. and it's pretty gruesome.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 05:50 AM   #42
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This thread is about gun control, the thread is called "Sean Lennon On Guns: Disarm" it is not a thread about some faceless people from a science fiction fandom
there are many of us who believe that mental health issues are the bigger issue here.
Mental Health advocates could be using this issue to try and make awareness about getting more funding for their groups to help understand, treat and prevent mentally challenged people (there, I used your PC term) from turning into extreme cases.

Remember Maia's comment about more funding for Public Schools? I actually agree with her on this. Even Reader's Digest years ago printed one of their articles detailing a family's everyday life in caring for a mentally challenged daughter with a very severe disorder, and the mother found that the Public Schools actually offered the best features for her daughter to get an education which surprised her. (after going the private route a few times and it failing).
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 09:12 AM   #43
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Julian's following Sean's lead and making gun control tweets today according to The Examiner. I'm amused by this quote:
"But somehow the guns always wind up in the hands of people crazy enough to use them irresponsibly and dangerously. "

Yep. He went there and said the C word- Crazy.
Not politically correct much, but I still will stand up for my rights just because there are others who are mentally unfit to use weapons responsibly.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 10:12 AM   #44
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As for what is Bi-polar disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder... Google is a huge, vast searching tool that will find literally dozens upon dozens of websites and blogs that talk about these issues.

Here are a few that I have found, and interestingly enough I found much truth in what some people do say about these mental illnesses.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001931/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderl...ality_disorder

And it makes good reading because it helps normal people spot the signs. There are the signs that these disorders have a destructive outcome because most who suffer are suicidal.
Suicidal and homocidal are two different things, though.

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Reading on, it also goes into what is called Narcissistic Rage and this is just one of the sites that Google featured on that particular disorder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narciss...ality_disorder

Interesting.

To find out the differences of both illnesses, read what the experts say. After all, a doctor's degree and their websites and informed case studies far outweigh any layman's ideas and judgements. PhD's usually have the schooling, training and knowledge about all these disorders and professional help is available anywhere nowadays but the problem occurs when those who need professional help refuse to seek it, get it and get well.
There are books written on the really bad situation with the mental health system. First off, many PhD's are idiots. Sorry, but it is true. And, of course, some are wonderful and brilliant. The wonderful and brilliant ones often chose to be in private practice, not working for county. The state of affairs with budget cuts, etc, make county mental health a complete joke.

A person seeking treatment will need to wait a month or two to get evaluated. Then, if they are lucky, they win the "we'll help you" lotto, which means they wait another month or two because the Drs are backed up. Doctors need to see the person and medicate them before engaging in ANY talk therapy. Talk therapy is something you need to qualify for, and the wait time is over a year, most often. Sometimes you can get into groups, but again, must be approved by your Doctor. Doctors are told to sedate people. Yup. Sedate. So, someone who has depression (from the root word depress) will be likely given something which depresses/sedates their system. Or maybe they will be lucky and get something which causes symptoms like brain freezing, teeth chatttering, body shivers, or... my favorite... suicidal tendency. And all the while these symptoms are developing, they can call in and make an appointment to see their dr who will see them.... at their monthly apt!

So, people are disconnected and disenfranchised, often dropping out of the system or giving up. Or maybe they stay within the system and take the meds - like a borderline friend of mine did. Believe me, the meds did her no favors.

And when an incident like this shooting happens, I think it can be damaging to label the person as BPD or bipolar. I know many people with BPD and bipolar, as I am an advocate. People with challanges face more stigmas this way.

Also, about normal people "spotting the signs"... what is normal? And presuming a "sign" is spotted, then what is to be done? Avoid "these people?"

I think the term personality disorder is somewhat amusing because what personality is "in order?" Being human is synonomous with being flawed. Not one of us in "in order."

I think all the meds and whole psych field needs revamping. To begin with, talk therapy needs to be first, except in extreme cases where there are hallucinations, etc. Secondly, there needs to be integral elements (like yoga) before meds are given. Thirdly, we need to stop labeling in most cases. Finally, we need to cut out the PC crap. Call things as they are. People with a myriad of "disorders" are not so much ill as disconnected... from self or God or others. And people who harm others are crazy. The two catagories are different.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 10:13 AM   #45
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Also a bit of American History for all of you:
After the Columbine shooting, the US school system had hundreds of what was called zero-tolerance rules enacted in the schools to keep out guns and weapons. Sounds good, right?

WRong.
Thousands of kids were victimized by school administrations from cutting cakes in the cafeteria for a birthday party to possessing nail files in makeup kits or crochet tools for personal hobbies. Each of these children were denied an education and made into criminals for simple acts.

I can't imagine that on a national level.

Yes, there were parents who fought back with groups such as, "Enough is Enough"
but this is what we don't want to see happen.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 12:25 PM   #46
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And people who harm others are crazy.
I agree.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 03:38 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Hari's Chick View Post
Suicidal and homocidal are two different things, though.
There are books written on the really bad situation with the mental health system. First off, many PhD's are idiots. Sorry, but it is true. And, of course, some are wonderful and brilliant. The wonderful and brilliant ones often chose to be in private practice, not working for county. The state of affairs with budget cuts, etc, make county mental health a complete joke.

A person seeking treatment will need to wait a month or two to get evaluated. Then, if they are lucky, they win the "we'll help you" lotto, which means they wait another month or two because the Drs are backed up. Doctors need to see the person and medicate them before engaging in ANY talk therapy. Talk therapy is something you need to qualify for, and the wait time is over a year, most often. Sometimes you can get into groups, but again, must be approved by your Doctor. Doctors are told to sedate people. Yup. Sedate. So, someone who has depression (from the root word depress) will be likely given something which depresses/sedates their system. Or maybe they will be lucky and get something which causes symptoms like brain freezing, teeth chatttering, body shivers, or... my favorite... suicidal tendency. And all the while these symptoms are developing, they can call in and make an appointment to see their dr who will see them.... at their monthly apt!

So, people are disconnected and disenfranchised, often dropping out of the system or giving up. Or maybe they stay within the system and take the meds - like a borderline friend of mine did. Believe me, the meds did her no favors.

And when an incident like this shooting happens, I think it can be damaging to label the person as BPD or bipolar. I know many people with BPD and bipolar, as I am an advocate. People with challanges face more stigmas this way.

Also, about normal people "spotting the signs"... what is normal? And presuming a "sign" is spotted, then what is to be done? Avoid "these people?"

I think the term personality disorder is somewhat amusing because what personality is "in order?" Being human is synonomous with being flawed. Not one of us in "in order."

I think all the meds and whole psych field needs revamping. To begin with, talk therapy needs to be first, except in extreme cases where there are hallucinations, etc. Secondly, there needs to be integral elements (like yoga) before meds are given. Thirdly, we need to stop labeling in most cases. Finally, we need to cut out the PC crap. Call things as they are. People with a myriad of "disorders" are not so much ill as disconnected... from self or God or others. And people who harm others are crazy. The two catagories are different.

I gave some of the links I looked up as another didn't want to bother using google to know the differences.

The websites that are written out about those disorders are usually written out from books and articles by PhD's and I'll take their knowledge over some layman's ideas. Of course there is a difference between homicidal and suicidal, and that is why I shared a few links that went into detail. People who have commited homicidal acts have (in every case I've ever heard) at one time or another were suicidal.

I agree that there's a stigma on the whole bi-polar disorder, as such. I hate seeing any bullying remarks against them and that word being used against people who are NOT bi-polar just because some want that word to hold some kind of sting to it and make any who do suffer from it feel even more isolated. It's cruel to those who do suffer.

Are there some doctors who are idiots, sure. But that shouldn't mean that mentally ill people shouldn't seek professional help. As I've said, there are too often mentally ill who do not even think they are ill and refuse seeking any kind of help. Those are the dangerous ones, imo.

Personality disorder is vague in its wording, but I think once you get into the study of this you'll find that there are the differences between what would be normal behaviour to severe disorders where a person might do things that normal people wouldn't do. Like carry weapons and waiting for any opportunity to harm someone. Or having a life-long grudge against any given group, religion, race or fandom of people because of something that happened, like say someone didn't want to have relations with someone else and that person feels rejected to a point that that person acts out in the most extreme way and makes others suffer because of it.

You see it's normal to feel rejected now and then. It's not normal to carry that into phases where threats, desires of harm and such come about because of it. Just an example there.

For instance this thread is about Sean Lennon's desire to see stricter gun control and the issue of mental illness. As I've stated. I was simply pointing out that (because up further in the thread) it wasn't a thread about others who are not mentally ill or have tried to harm anyone. I can say I know some very mentally ill people, but I'm not going to mention their ages, or their particular interests because then I would be bringing into the discussion something that doesn't belong (a personal issue) and I wanted to make it clear that whenever a thread comes along that touches on the issue of mental illness, I don't want to read some people I know online being used as fodder.

That was one issue I addressed here. I hope that it never happens again. But that is my hope.

I still would rather a mentally ill person pick up a bible because it teaches about love and human qualities. A gun, knife and other weapons can do swift harm in the blink of an eye. A bible is a book. Never pass up an opportunity to read a book, I say!

"there are many of us who believe that mental health issues are the bigger issue here."

Yes and NOT an issue about science fandom peoples who aren't even remotely involved. Who have not taken part in homicidal acts. There are MANY of us who just don't want to read some dredge.

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Old Dec 18, 2012, 03:43 PM   #48
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I think all the meds and whole psych field needs revamping. To begin with, talk therapy needs to be first, except in extreme cases where there are hallucinations, etc. Secondly, there needs to be integral elements (like yoga) before meds are given. Thirdly, we need to stop labeling in most cases. Finally, we need to cut out the PC crap. Call things as they are. People with a myriad of "disorders" are not so much ill as disconnected... from self or God or others. And people who harm others are crazy. The two catagories are different.
Yes totally agree, people who begin talking to persons and things that aren't even there is not a good sign and need immediate help.
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Old Dec 18, 2012, 10:19 PM   #49
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The websites that are written out about those disorders are usually written out from books and articles by PhD's and I'll take their knowledge over some layman's ideas.
Well, it's up to you, but I also recommend checking out these books...

1. Crazy Like Us: The Globalization of the American Psyche

2. Anatomy of an Epidemic: Magic Bullets, Psychiatric Drugs, and the Astonishing Rise of Mental Illness in America

3. Unhinged: The Trouble with Psychiatry - A Doctor's Revelations about a Profession in Crisis

From the first book defining mental health in the 1800's to now, we've added hundreds of disorders. The disorders get voted in by a panel and thrown out by a panel. (As recently as the 1980's people were being put into institutions for "gender identity disorder"- having gay or lesbian tendencies, or even looking gay or lesbian.)

Before the 1800's, the world still spun and people were either crazy or not. But by labeling hundreds of "disorders" - the people who are acutely ill wind up blending in until something very sad happens.

And it is the drug companies who benefit.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 01:10 PM   #50
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More scarey Bible quotes. Just to prove the mentally ill might not benefit from the book at all:

http://spot.colorado.edu/~huemer/biblequotes.htm
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 01:19 PM   #51
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I still would rather a mentally ill person pick up a bible because it teaches about love and human qualities.
Ah, the good book. It's an interesting tome without a doubt. I'd also propose some paints and a canvas.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 03:01 PM   #52
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Ah, the good book. It's an interesting tome without a doubt. I'd also propose some paints and a canvas.
Good call! The bible is a very ancient relic, and learning about other cultures and history is a good thing. Paints and canvases were used to paint bibical masterpieces by the likes of Michaelangelo, etc. now that you mention it!
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 03:06 PM   #53
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Well, it's up to you, but I also recommend checking out these books...

1. Crazy Like Us: The Globalization of the American Psyche

2. Anatomy of an Epidemic: Magic Bullets, Psychiatric Drugs, and the Astonishing Rise of Mental Illness in America

3. Unhinged: The Trouble with Psychiatry - A Doctor's Revelations about a Profession in Crisis

From the first book defining mental health in the 1800's to now, we've added hundreds of disorders. The disorders get voted in by a panel and thrown out by a panel. (As recently as the 1980's people were being put into institutions for "gender identity disorder"- having gay or lesbian tendencies, or even looking gay or lesbian.)

Before the 1800's, the world still spun and people were either crazy or not. But by labeling hundreds of "disorders" - the people who are acutely ill wind up blending in until something very sad happens.

And it is the drug companies who benefit.

Of course they do! But things have progressed since then and the case studies conducted have benefitted millions of people. Back in the day if you had a sore tooth, you got it pulled with all the pain that can cause until they invented novacaine to dull and numb the tooth and nerves. Medicine wasn't always perfect and it's not perfect now, but we are progressing.

Those are good books you've mentioned. I've not read them but did use google to look up reviews about them. Thanks for sharing HC!

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Old Dec 19, 2012, 05:30 PM   #54
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Of course they do! But things have progressed since then and the case studies conducted have benefitted millions of people. Back in the day if you had a sore tooth, you got it pulled with all the pain that can cause until they invented novacaine to dull and numb the tooth and nerves. Medicine wasn't always perfect and it's not perfect now, but we are progressing.
I undestand what you are saying, but I contend we are not progressing in a responsible directon.

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Those are good books you've mentioned. I've not read them but did use google to look up reviews about them. Thanks for sharing HC!
I'm glad you found them interesting. I'd be interested in knowing your impressions if you decide to take them in further.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 05:39 PM   #55
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More scarey Bible quotes. Just to prove the mentally ill might not benefit from the book at all:

http://spot.colorado.edu/~huemer/biblequotes.htm
Some books of the bible are more peaceful than others. The bible was not a homogeneous book. As you likely know, it was composed by many different folks and was not even considered a bound volume collective until the advent of the printing press. There is even one book written by someone who was likely considered an atheist.

Still, the bible is the most popular book in history and many believe it God inspired. If it can help people, that's a good thing. If certain books are scary or passages are scary to you, then others may not be. As I say, keep in mind it did not begin as ONE book, but many, bound together.
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Old Dec 19, 2012, 06:39 PM   #56
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I undestand what you are saying, but I contend we are not progressing in a responsible directon.

I'm glad you found them interesting. I'd be interested in knowing your impressions if you decide to take them in further.
Sure will, HC! I'd love to discuss this subject matter and touch upon the issues we face today against troublesome individuals who are dangerous in society.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 04:03 PM   #57
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I could rant about the current states of the drugs given to people with mental health issues and the dangerous side effects they have if taken either correctly or incorrectly...I wish there were better ways to help people out there.
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Old Jan 05, 2013, 07:41 PM   #58
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Hi to all. New to the forum, beatles fan from way back and a fairly conservative person who happens to go to church on a regular basis. I am also a gun owner, have been since I was a teenager. I remember when John was killed, and I was pretty depressed for a while (memory fails me, but I do recall being in a fog all day). I have never...ever...even considered shooting a human. Deer? squirrels? bunnies? yep, cause I can eat 'em. Guns are a tool, used to provide food, self defense, and sadly a means of destruction during a war. And no, I do not own any para military gear, no need for it.
The problem I have with gun control: The same problem as people who want the freedom to have an abortion. Think about it, the end result is the same, dead human. We had over 10,000 gun deaths in the us in 2011? How does 1,212,400 abortions from 2009-2011 sound? Who sheds a tear for those unborn (Obama?). Ever hear of Megans law? If you kill, intentionally or otherwise (like a drunk driving accident) a pregnant woman you can and will be charged with 2 deaths. Am I the only one who see's the hypocrisy, and ALL generated by our beloved elected officials.
I am deeply saddened by the events in Connecticut, but I am equally saddened by what our society has become. We aren't even caring human beings any more, we've de-humanized ourselves to the point that killing each other is just a fucking fun video game. Killing is everywhere,movies, tv, music. Why? Can't we entertain ourselves in a better way than that? I'm at the point where, if there were a presidential candidate that was "gonna send us back to the fifties" I'd vote for him in an instant. Actually, I think I'd prefer the good old thirties, when we had our isolationist policies.
I'll close by saying: Yeah, we need to do a better job of monitoring who can buy a gun, but we also could stand a good dose of morality. All You Need Is Love, indeed.
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 04:53 PM   #59
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Ah, lumping the guns in with abortion. what a subject.

Why does no one shed a tear for the dead fetuses? They were unwanted. Pure and simple. (I never see any anti-abortion advocate adopting unwanted children. EVER).

Insurance covers Viagra like it was candy but birth control? Nope. Think of the hypocrisy. Most anti-abortion people are against birth control which can actually prevent abortions. (studies show that the lowest abortion rates occur in areas where birth control was free).

I won't even go into how most anti-abortionist are also against homosexuals, a group that doesn't have abortions and are also against Sex Education for adults teaching them about sexuality that doesn't lead to pregnancy.

But I am for responsible people having guns who can handle them. just like I am for responsible people having sex.
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 04:55 PM   #60
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.Actually, I think I'd prefer the good old thirties, when we had our isolationist policies.
I'll close by saying: Yeah, we need to do a better job of monitoring who can buy a gun, but we also could stand a good dose of morality. All You Need Is Love, indeed.

Isolationist need not smoke or drink coffee or eat chocolate then as all of those things are results of multiculteralism. (look them up. White people didn't invent those things)

Morality? If you go around hurting people, what you lack is empathy not morality.
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