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Old Dec 26, 2011, 12:57 PM   #21
Maia 66
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August 2nd. I was up in the Boston area that summer and it amazes me that the same day my friend and went to the movies to see "The Blue Lagoon" (LAME!!!), John was in his first rehearsal for making his comeback!
That was my parents' 25th wedding anniversary!! (But I honestly have no recollection of how I spent the day...)
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Old Dec 26, 2011, 02:07 PM   #22
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=wildewoman;1090972 "Lennon Legend" --which is a hell of a lot of fun, sort of like a pop-up book for Lennon fans. It may not offer a lot in the way of new information, but there's beautiful photographs and reproductions of his school report cards, handwritten lyrics, ticket stubs, newspaper clippings and the like! It's great fun!
Wooow, "Lennon Legend" is one of my absolute favourite John-book ever, you will loooove it for sure

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Old Dec 26, 2011, 02:08 PM   #23
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Another thing that surprised me--John was a fan of Christopher Cross? Honestly? Oh, man, John, not THAT lamer. (Shakes head).
Funny, I thought exactly the same; what a boring singer

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Old Dec 26, 2011, 02:10 PM   #24
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Yes but...I told my husband that John loved Billy Joel and he started fake choking.
It was Billy Joel from the 70s! What's wrong with that?
Ähm... and what's wrong with the Billy Joel of the 80's ?????

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Old Dec 26, 2011, 02:36 PM   #25
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Ähm... and what's wrong with the Billy Joel of the 80's ?????

Snoopy
I know I should know this, but when he did that horrible song Uptown Girl? Yeah, right then is when he kissed his credibility goodbye.

But I like him. He is far too close to home (and Italian). I have to represent!
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Old Dec 26, 2011, 04:55 PM   #26
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Default Ok, I'm as far as ... the section on how J & Y worked together....

and I am LOVING this book enough to overlook the Oct. 8 birthday error. Funny, it's listed later in the book with the correct date, so the error in the preface was probably a typo that slipped by everyone. (Some proofreader needs to get kicked in the butt.) It was interesting to find out how insecure John felt about these songs, to begin with. Not really surprising, but still startling, since his interviews to plug the record later did not indicate that. Of course, he probably was feeling confident by the time he was giving interviews, which probably was reflected in what he said about the album.

Not being a musician myself, it's fun to see how professional musicians create the music in the studio--or, at least, how this particular group of music professionals created that particular record.

I wonder what Yoko's problem was with Roy...Cicala (spelling?) was? Didn't he work with Billy Joel & Springsteen? I am not sure.

Since Billy Joel came up, let me be the first to say that I LOVE 70's Billy Joel. "Scenes from an Italian Restaurant" with "Brender" & Eddie is one of my favorites, as is "Honesty" and "The Stranger." I can imagine John particularly liking the latter two songs. "Uptown Girl" was not Joel's finest moment, I agree.

But I'm sorry about Christopher Cross; I never liked that guy's music. I kept wishing he'd either Ride Like the Wind or go Sailing right off the radio when those songs were in heavy rotation.

But I digress....

It's nice to see that musicians who were actually there in the studio say that John & Yoko were getting along well during that period. I was also amused to read the criticism of Emerick's book by one of the sound engineers from DF.

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Old Dec 26, 2011, 05:13 PM   #27
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Yes but...I told my husband that John loved Billy Joel and he started fake choking.

It was Billy Joel from the 70s! What's wrong with that?

edit: SOOOOO cool about your 17th birthday wilde.
Have I told you that TO THIS DAY one of my biggest regrets in life is my inability to convince my friend and her stepmother to go to NYC so we could hang out in front of the Dakota waiting for John and Yoko during the summer of 1980? I didn't even know they were recording, either! Damn! I probably could have seen them!

On the other hand, I don't blame my friend's stepmother NOT wanting to escort two dorky teenage girls in NYC, and I know my friend would get restless pretty quickly just hanging around the Dakota (unless the guard on duty was good looking. Then she could have flirted with him. Her goal in life at that point was to break as many male hearts as possible.)

I'm just reliving the summer before my senior year, reading this. Even enduring Christopher Cross.
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Old Dec 26, 2011, 06:16 PM   #28
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and I am LOVING this book enough to overlook the Oct. 8 birthday error. Funny, it's listed later in the book with the correct date, so the error in the preface was probably a typo that slipped by everyone. (Some proofreader needs to get kicked in the butt.) It was interesting to find out how insecure John felt about these songs, to begin with. Not really surprising, but still startling, since his interviews to plug the record later did not indicate that. Of course, he probably was feeling confident by the time he was giving interviews, which probably was reflected in what he said about the album.

Not being a musician myself, it's fun to see how professional musicians create the music in the studio--or, at least, how this particular group of music professionals created that particular record.

I wonder what Yoko's problem was with Roy...Cicala (spelling?) was? Didn't he work with Billy Joel & Springsteen? I am not sure.

Since Billy Joel came up, let me be the first to say that I LOVE 70's Billy Joel. "Scenes from an Italian Restaurant" with "Brender" & Eddie is one of my favorites, as is "Honesty" and "The Stranger." I can imagine John particularly liking the latter two songs. "Uptown Girl" was not Joel's finest moment, I agree.

But I'm sorry about Christopher Cross; I never liked that guy's music. I kept wishing he'd either Ride Like the Wind or go Sailing right off the radio when those songs were in heavy rotation.

But I digress....

It's nice to see that musicians who were actually there in the studio say that John & Yoko were getting along well during that period. I was also amused to read the criticism of Emerick's book by one of the sound engineers from DF.
I think I'm going to get the book out this week and re-read it. Wait until you get to the song breakdowns! My mom got into that because DF is her fave John solo album (and her fave solo Beatle album, period). Anyway, excellent summary so far wilde! I think J&Y had a really cool camaraderie, which in itself is interesting for a husband and wife. I really dig that.

I found an interview from someone who took some photos of John in 1980- one of which is on the back of the book! I'll find it and post it in here. I know the guy's name- right off the tip of my tongue- but I forgot...anyway, thank you wilde for sharing this! Really love that you're getting into it so much!
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Old Dec 26, 2011, 06:31 PM   #29
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Have I told you that TO THIS DAY one of my biggest regrets in life is my inability to convince my friend and her stepmother to go to NYC so we could hang out in front of the Dakota waiting for John and Yoko during the summer of 1980? I didn't even know they were recording, either! Damn! I probably could have seen them!

On the other hand, I don't blame my friend's stepmother NOT wanting to escort two dorky teenage girls in NYC, and I know my friend would get restless pretty quickly just hanging around the Dakota (unless the guard on duty was good looking. Then she could have flirted with him. Her goal in life at that point was to break as many male hearts as possible.)

I'm just reliving the summer before my senior year, reading this. Even enduring Christopher Cross.
Gawd, you were so close! But think about all those young girls that lived right there in NYC and were oblivious to John until after he passed? They had an even closer opportunity than you and they no doubt are kicking themselves for not taking note earlier. Me? I can only live vicariously through all of you.
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 01:43 AM   #30
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I know I should know this, but when he did that horrible song Uptown Girl? Yeah, right then is when he kissed his credibility goodbye.

But I like him. He is far too close to home (and Italian). I have to represent!
OMG, "Uptown girl" is my favourite song by Billy Joel, I even bought the music-clip on iTunes

Sorry, Billy isn't Italian, but jewish, as far as I know...

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Old Dec 27, 2011, 08:03 AM   #31
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OMG, "Uptown girl" is my favourite song by Billy Joel, I even bought the music-clip on iTunes

Sorry, Billy isn't Italian, but jewish, as far as I know...

Snoopy
No!!!!!! Not "Uptown Girl!" That song makes "Only People" sound...like a decent song (you all thought I would say "work of art" eh? In it's dreams!)

Also, Snoopy is correct Fly! Billy is 100% Jewish. But my friend made a similar error, so it's all good.
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 11:52 AM   #32
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Also, Snoopy is correct Fly! Billy is 100% Jewish. But my friend made a similar error, so it's all good.
Well, you're right. So since we got that out of the way, Billy Joel hasn't released or recorded anything I would care about since the 70s and everything else he has done is mediocre and basic at best. Snoopy likes Uptown Girl but she won't give Yoko a chance. Look at the irony.

I actually am going to read this book (topic of thread) as well. I don't just love John's music in 1980, it's a massive part of my life and family. So I will be taking part in this discussion whenever I get the chance to.
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 01:26 PM   #33
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Well gawdamn, you're right. So since we got that out of the way, Billy Joel hasn't released or recorded anything I would give an actual f*ck about since the 70s and everything else he has done is mediocre and basic at best. Snoopy likes Uptown Girl but she won't give Yoko a chance. Look at the irony.

I actually am going to read this book (topic of thread) as well. I don't just love John's music in 1980, it's a massive part of my life and family. So I will be taking part in this discussion whenever I get the chance to.
I don't only love "Uptown girl", but also "Leningrad" and "We didn't start the fire"..... well, like John once said: "they gonna crucify me"....

But back to the topic: I think it's great that you are going to read "Starting over" and I'm looking forward to read your impressions

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Old Dec 27, 2011, 08:34 PM   #34
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I finished it last night -- inhaled it to get the full sweep of the book without pause. Now I will read it over again to catch the nuances, because that's how I roll when a book captures me. I always read books I enjoy twice in a row.

I will refrain from a full review before I have the chance to read it a second time.

My impressions on my first read: I liked that the author let the participants speak for themselves and give their impressions, without leading the reader towards any particular point-of-view. The author trusts the reader to reach her own conclusions.

I had a "Jesus Christ, am I slow or WHAT?" moment when i read that John quoted George's "Something" in "I'm Losing You," during the fade-out: "I don't want to lose you now." His vocal on that line was note-for-note the same as the line in "Something," and I never picked up on that for 31 years! I suppose I missed that because of the band's arrangement and the context of the different songs, but strip both of those away and yes, it's a direct quote.

I was incredibly touched by Lee DeCarlo's reminiscence of John's answer to Lee's question: "What's the biggest f**kup you've made in your life, John?" If Julian thinks John had no idea and didn't care how he, John, had failed Julian as a father, he is laboring under a sad delusion....

More later.
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 08:42 PM   #35
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Oh wilde...I'm so happy you finished it (and damn quickly at that!)...ok, I am going to re-read Starting Over starting in 2012 and share more, but I love that we got this amazing book at about the same time we got LennonNYC. It revealed so much for me, since I wasn't there and experienced what those who did may have.

John was always thinking about Julian and loved him a lot. Jules is a lot of drama, but that is for another thread (head over to rants because I brought it up in there). Anyway, thank you for your concise racap!

This book is perfect to me.
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Old Dec 29, 2011, 02:06 PM   #36
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Question John's voice and double-tracking

I just wonder what your thought are about John's manner to insist on double-tracking his voice. Do you all think it was good or not ?

On page 81 of the book it's written that John used to get a back-massage before singing a lead-vocal. Interesting, one one hand he smoked a lot and on the other hand he took care of his voice

It's also said that John put that "Mojo Filter" because he loved that Elvis kind of delay on his voice. Well, I must admit that I love that effect

I know it's not really new facts, but again you can read that John hated the sound of his voice, so he double-tracked it. Moreover, he couldn't bear that Jack Douglas would hear his songs with a single vocal. That's really odd, I think

John seemed very stubborn concerning making tricks with his voice. I guess, that was probably the main reason of the "Stripped down"-CD, to hear John's real voice; any thoughts ?

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Old Dec 29, 2011, 02:32 PM   #37
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John's voice is magnificent. It is one of the most pure, honest, gorgeous gifts this world has ever been given. it is so unique, so passionate, so...perfect. He didn't love his voice like he didn't love his looks or his songs (sometimes). Yet they were all GORGEOUS. John was an insecure man on the surface, but deep down he had a pretty great ego. He was a contradiction. The very fact that double Fantasy "stripped" is so amazing is proof enough of John's abilities. The fact that George Martin was left agape after hearing John play and sing "A Day In The Life" says too much, as well as all he other people who heard him sing and play on his guitar with his voice. May Pang said that John's version of "Help" that he played for her was better than the Beatles version.

I mean, John's demos break my heart with their beauty. I don't think there's anymore I can say about his voice. It is a HUGE, MASSIVE part of my musical love and one of the main reasons I fell in love with the Beatles.

Thank you John for your incredible voice.
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Old Dec 30, 2011, 05:34 AM   #38
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John's voice is magnificent. It is one of the most pure, honest, gorgeous gifts this world has ever been given. it is so unique, so passionate, so...perfect. He didn't love his voice like he didn't love his looks or his songs (sometimes). Yet they were all GORGEOUS. John was an insecure man on the surface, but deep down he had a pretty great ego. He was a contradiction. The very fact that double Fantasy "stripped" is so amazing is proof enough of John's abilities. The fact that George Martin was left agape after hearing John play and sing "A Day In The Life" says too much, as well as all he other people who heard him sing and play on his guitar with his voice. May Pang said that John's version of "Help" that he played for her was better than the Beatles version.

I mean, John's demos break my heart with their beauty. I don't think there's anymore I can say about his voice. It is a HUGE, MASSIVE part of my musical love and one of the main reasons I fell in love with the Beatles.
Oh, so May also loved Johns' voice.... well, at least then you have something in common with her

It's true that John had a magnificient voice with many different facettes, tones, once raspy, once high etc.

But I still wonder if you like the thing about the double-tracking on DF, or do you think he shouldn't have done it ? (Though he used that trick on other albums as well).

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Old Jan 06, 2012, 10:26 PM   #39
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But I still wonder if you like the thing about the double-tracking on DF, or do you think he shouldn't have done it ? (Though he used that trick on other albums as well).

Snoopy
It's a very interesting question you ask Snoopy. Well, it's hard for me to really express any opposition to John's use of double-tracked vocals because I love all those songs and they are a part of my life forever. Do I think they would be just as amazing had John not double-tracked? Yes. I think when we listen to the Anthology or the stripped album, or many of his demos, there is a very clear and undisputed theme that runs throughout. And that would be that John Lennon had a magnificent voice. I consider it peerless, in it's quality, effectiveness, and the way that he used it as an instrument to bear his feelings. I don't really concern myself with the "technical" issues because, to me, John's voice is amazing and powerful- and that says it all for me. He used it to the fullest.

Many artists have an underlying insecurity. I spend a lot of time in art museums and I often observe that many painters take years to complete a painting that, given their onvious artistic abilities, could have been done in less time. But it's the feeling of wanting to perfect or to evoke something from within- that stops them from completing said work in a timely fashion.

Well, take away the example of time (because John preferred to go in and get it done) and pretend instead that John's "time" was his voice. No matter how it may have sounded to the other three or to George Martin, it was never perfect or evocative enough for John. So he wanted to create a "fullness," or to give his voice more body. But what he didn't realize is that his voice, even in it's quietest and most whispering portrayal, was still incredibly powerful and evocative.

What are you going to do? That was John.

Anyway, I'm bumping this because I wanted to share a few of my favorite passages from the book pretty soon. So keeping it afloat will remind me.
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Old Jan 07, 2012, 09:31 AM   #40
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It's a very interesting question you ask Snoopy. Well, it's hard for me to really express any opposition to John's use of double-tracked vocals because I love all those songs and they are a part of my life forever. Do I think they would be just as amazing had John not double-tracked? Yes. I think when we listen to the Anthology or the stripped album, or many of his demos, there is a very clear and undisputed theme that runs throughout.

No matter how it may have sounded to the other three or to George Martin, it was never perfect or evocative enough for John. So he wanted to create a "fullness," or to give his voice more body.

What are you going to do? That was John.
You know, for me it's also very hard to make up my mind. I really couldn't tell, what I prefer: the raw voice or the double-tracked one

I discovered John's real voice only when I got the anthology-box and it was kind of a relevation. I wasn't too enthousiastic the very first time because I thought it sounded a bit shaky and fragile. But the stripped down of DF was the kick-out and now I do enjoy the home-demos, as it's like discovering the warm and personal side of John's awesome voice.

To sum up, I'd say that I love all forms of John's voice, but I'm currently enjoying more and more his natural voice like in the home-demos

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