BeatleLinks LogoNav Panel New Sites Cool Sites Top Rated Fab Forum Add A Site Link To Us Revolution Radio New Products



Go Back   BeatleLinks Fab Forum > Other Forums > Here, There & Everywhere


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Aug 23, 2010, 05:50 PM   #1
62hofner
Moderator
 
62hofner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 11, 2005
Location: Beautiful Downtown Burbank, CA
Posts: 6,041



Default "Mosque" "at" Ground Zero

I have been busy (probably a little too busy) in recent days engaging in cyber-arguments with some very hate-filled and ignorant people over the Islamic Community Center being planned two blocks from the WTC site . I just concluded another such "discussion" with one of them over on youtube.

I am done now. The more I read from some people, the more depressed I get about the state of my country. So as a way of closing-out my "efforts" surrounding this whole stupid, right-wing-fueled "controversy", I submit this video from George that warns us - those of us who listen - of times such as these...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Last edited by 62hofner : Aug 23, 2010 at 05:51 PM.
62hofner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 23, 2010, 05:56 PM   #2
loveyouinstead
Little Child
 
loveyouinstead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 31, 2010
Posts: 79
Default

I absolutely agree with you. It is very disheartening, because as long as this continues, we will never know peace. Ever.

Here is a wonderful video (it's about 10ish minutes long and worth every second!) that really puts it in perspective. I think everyone should watch it, get the FACTS and then maybe people would be more willing to try to understand. One would hope.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...31398#38731398
__________________
My George Harrison blog:
http://www.economyclassbeatle.blogspot.com
loveyouinstead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 23, 2010, 06:02 PM   #3
62hofner
Moderator
 
62hofner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 11, 2005
Location: Beautiful Downtown Burbank, CA
Posts: 6,041



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by loveyouinstead View Post
I absolutely agree with you. It is very disheartening, because as long as this continues, we will never know peace. Ever.

Here is a wonderful video (it's about 10ish minutes long and worth every second!) that really puts it in perspective. I think everyone should watch it, get the FACTS and then maybe people would be more willing to try to understand. One would hope.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...31398#38731398
That's the problem..... you can't talk sense into many of them - regardless of how clear and concise you come across. They're filled with hate and bigotry, and I ask, "How did such a 'great' nation produce such individuals?".

I'll check out the video. Thanks!

Oh, yeah.... I watched Keith yesterday... I saw this.

Last edited by 62hofner : Aug 23, 2010 at 06:04 PM.
62hofner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 23, 2010, 06:19 PM   #4
loveyouinstead
Little Child
 
loveyouinstead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 31, 2010
Posts: 79
Default

Quote:
"How did such a 'great' nation produce such individuals?"
According to Hindu thought, there are 4 stages in the cycle of time, called yugas, and we are in the Kali yuga. Basically meaning, our virtue and dharma is at its lowest point. As soon as we eff up enough to kill ourselves off this planet, it will all start all over again. Maybe someday we'll get it right?

Here's a pretty concise explanation. Forgive me if you already know this:

Quote:
Cycles of time

There are four ages (called yugas):


The first lasts 1,728,000 years


The second lasts 1,296,000 years


The third lasts 864,000 years


The fourth lasts 432,000 years (this last age is Kali yuga, our present age beginning 5000 years ago)

Each age sees a decline in virtue (dharma) from the previous. As told in one parable, in the first golden age, dharma stood on four legs like a table, but in the second age it stood only on three, in the third age on two, and now in the present age only on one, thus all but one fourth of the world's virtue has vanished in the present age.

These four ages, as lengthy as they may seem, are only a small part of the great cycle of time:


4 ages = one mahayuga (great age), 4,320,000 yrs, after which creation will rest (return to a state of non-differentiation) for one mahayuga.


1000 mahayugas = one day of Brahma (or one kalpa), 4,320,000,000 years, after which Brahma sleeps and creation rests for one kalpa.


Brahma's lifetime = 100 years of his days and nights: 4.32 billion x 365 x 2 x 100 = 311 trillion yrs, after which Shiva dances, all things including Brahma dissolve and nothing exists for an equivalent time, then it all begins again.

Against such immense scale, one single lifetime becomes insignificant.
__________________
My George Harrison blog:
http://www.economyclassbeatle.blogspot.com

Last edited by loveyouinstead : Aug 23, 2010 at 06:19 PM.
loveyouinstead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 23, 2010, 06:20 PM   #5
FPSHOT
Sun King
 
FPSHOT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 04, 2000
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 31,563



Default

Before watching that 10 min video, what is it that you are so bummed about in these youtube discussions? That the mosque is being built close to Ground Zero or that so many are against it?
__________________
"Everyone should have themselves regularly overwhelmed by Nature"
- George Harrison


FPSHOT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 23, 2010, 07:24 PM   #6
beatlebangs1964
Moderator
 
beatlebangs1964's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 23, 2001
Posts: 37,548



Send a message via AIM to beatlebangs1964
Default

It bothers me that there are people against it.

It is not Islam nor those who follow its beliefs. It is the behavior of a few extremists that have people up in arms, to use a questionable expression. People who follow the Islamic beliefs are just people, no different really from anyone else. It makes me sad that the actions of a few, the atrocities committed by a few sow the seeds of bigotry and enmity. That is the last thing this world needs. We need unity and amity instead. I hope that Mosque does get built at Ground Zero.

I think it would be an excellent olive branch and a wonderful show of faith to have the Mosque built at what is currently Ground Zero.
__________________
With a love like that, you know you should be glad, yeah, yeah, yeah!-- Beatles, 1963

If I seem to act unkind, it's only me, it's not my mind. -- George Harrison, 1966

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/c...rtc/signatures

http://www.reddit.com/r/troubledteen...aten_at_green/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7g0oiJ52Gw
beatlebangs1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 23, 2010, 07:28 PM   #7
62hofner
Moderator
 
62hofner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 11, 2005
Location: Beautiful Downtown Burbank, CA
Posts: 6,041



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FPSHOT View Post
Before watching that 10 min video, what is it that you are so bummed about in these youtube discussions? That the mosque is being built close to Ground Zero or that so many are against it?
I am bummed that...

1.) it is being opposed so vehemently, as to bring out the absolute worst in Americans, and...

2.) the fact that people's fears are being played on by certain "media outlets", and that these people are actually falling for it.

Some would like all of America (or just enough to win some votes) to believe this "mosque" will be some "victory mosque" - like there's going to be some huge, golden minaret towering over the Manhattan skyline smack-dab in the middle of where the WTC once stood. It's going to be a Muslim Community Center - like a YMCA - where there will be a culinary school, a theatre, an arts center, a 9/11 memorial(!), and yes - two floors devoted to prayer.

The Imam at the center of this "controversy" has been a part of New York City for many, many years. He has no ties to the 9/11 hijackers, conspirators, nor any other terrorist group, and he has been accompanied by United States officials - including GW Bush(!) - over the years on many trips around the world to promote peace and understanding.

All of the sudden - after months of quiet surrounding the building plans - he is being vilified and "The Mosque At Ground Zero" story has been given new life... being shoved down the throats of Americans.

It's no coincidence that this has all transpired now that elections are on the horizon. Makes me sick.

Does that answer your question, FPSHOT? Sorry if I answered you longer than you had wanted.

Last edited by 62hofner : Aug 23, 2010 at 07:29 PM.
62hofner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 23, 2010, 07:34 PM   #8
FPSHOT
Sun King
 
FPSHOT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 04, 2000
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 31,563



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by beatlebangs1964 View Post

It is not Islam nor those who follow its beliefs. It is the behavior of a few extremists that have people up in arms, to use a questionable expression. People who follow the Islamic beliefs are just people, no different really from anyone else. It makes me sad that the actions of a few, the atrocities committed by a few sow the seeds of bigotry and enmity. That is the last thing this world needs. We need unity and amity instead. I hope that Mosque does get built at Ground Zero.
Nice one BB Good words.

Quote:
I think it would be an excellent olive branch and a wonderful show of faith to have the Mosque built at what is currently Ground Zero.
I wonder why it is being talked about as being built AT Ground Zero since it is two blocks away from it, isn't it? I believe calling it 'near by' or something like that would already make it sound smoother?
__________________
"Everyone should have themselves regularly overwhelmed by Nature"
- George Harrison



Last edited by FPSHOT : Aug 23, 2010 at 07:34 PM.
FPSHOT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 23, 2010, 07:35 PM   #9
darkhorse23
Dr. Robert
 
darkhorse23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 10, 2008
Location: Phoenix, AZ (USA)
Posts: 1,117
Default

FACTS??? from MSNBC???

I'm against the mosque.
__________________
.
Deport illegal aliens.
End birthright citizenship.
www.americanpatrol.com[/color]
darkhorse23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 23, 2010, 07:39 PM   #10
62hofner
Moderator
 
62hofner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 11, 2005
Location: Beautiful Downtown Burbank, CA
Posts: 6,041



Default

There is a "sub-plot" to all of this "mosque" stuff...

There is an element in America that resents that there is a black man in the White House. Not that this is THE only reason he is disliked by so many (but it surely contributes)... and he has been under assault from the time he entered office.

The plan is to raise the public's fears of Islam, while questioning The President's religious affiliation - an affiliation which 1.) makes no difference one way or another, and 2.) has already been clarified, anyway.

When Barak Obama was running for President, he came under fire from his detractors for belonging to a CHURCH in Chicago where a "racist" Pastor presided. Now that he is President, they seem to have forgotten this church affiliation, and now all of the sudden he is a closet Muslim!

It is beyond infuriating that these accusations go further than the poisonous mouths they come from! People are SO ignorant and they are preyed upon, successfully, as a result..


Last edited by 62hofner : Aug 23, 2010 at 08:00 PM.
62hofner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 23, 2010, 07:48 PM   #11
62hofner
Moderator
 
62hofner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 11, 2005
Location: Beautiful Downtown Burbank, CA
Posts: 6,041



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorse23 View Post
FACTS??? from MSNBC???

I'm against the mosque.
Listen, I am not going to let this thread turn into a shouting match - as has happened many time before on these sorts of topics....

But all I will say to you, darkhorse23, is that MSNBC may have liberal leanings - to which they make no bones about. But FOX is nothing more than Rupert Murdoch's cable TV arm of his conservative right propaganda machine. They say they're "fair and balanced"! LOL! How can you make a claim like that when you donate $1,000,000.00 to a particular political party (Republican)?

You are entitled to you views on the "mosque", and I respect your opinion. There are sensitivities involved and I appreciate that. But by playing on people's fears, stemming from 9/11, is to attempt to undermine The Constitution - which provides for this "mosque" to be built there.
62hofner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 23, 2010, 08:01 PM   #12
FPSHOT
Sun King
 
FPSHOT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 04, 2000
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 31,563



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 62hofner View Post
Does that answer your question, FPSHOT? Sorry if I answered you longer than you had wanted.
It most certainly does 62hofner (probably the first time I type your username in full ).

I agree to your arguments. I wonder what the serious arguments are from those who are against it, which I believe is about 65ish % of the US population ( who did the counting, if any? ) . Not just saying one is against it but also clarifying in reasonable argumentation the 'why'.

For instance I would like it if someone can tell me what else with an Islam or Muslim background is in the area around Ground Zero, like shops or anything.

For instance I wonder if those against it are aware that on 9/11 at what is now Ground Zero also people with and Islam or Muslim background were killed.

For instance I wonder if people who are against it know that many many many people with an Islam or Muslim background are very very very against what those terrorists did on 9/11 to name one date.
__________________
"Everyone should have themselves regularly overwhelmed by Nature"
- George Harrison



Last edited by FPSHOT : Aug 23, 2010 at 08:04 PM.
FPSHOT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 23, 2010, 08:03 PM   #13
hibgal
Sun King
 
hibgal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 01, 2006
Posts: 26,650



Default

I've always thought there shouldn't be an elaborate memorial at all. You can't have one without giving undue attention to these extremists so why give them a shoe in? Rebuild on the spot, not necessarily exact replicas but regular NY highrises as on all the surrounding plots. Put a plaque on the wall or have a memorial room at the first floor or something but don't don't don't make such a big affair of it. I'm not American, true, but in percentage of population more people from my country died at 9/11 than US citizens, so I do feel I have a say here too.
__________________



Sometimes I dream in colors
It always happens when
I find myself with others
Who don't pretend
hibgal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 23, 2010, 08:07 PM   #14
darkhorse23
Dr. Robert
 
darkhorse23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 10, 2008
Location: Phoenix, AZ (USA)
Posts: 1,117
Default

I never said there was no legal right to build it. In fact, I argue there is EVERY legal right to build it. That however, doesn't make it right. I have every legal right to call people names, that doesn't make it right for me to do it though.

Instead of calling it the "ground zero mosque," I read a columnist who suggest it be called the "landing gear mosque" since the landing gear of one of the planes was actually found atop of that very building.
__________________
.
Deport illegal aliens.
End birthright citizenship.
www.americanpatrol.com[/color]
darkhorse23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 23, 2010, 08:10 PM   #15
FPSHOT
Sun King
 
FPSHOT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 04, 2000
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 31,563



Default

Good point Hib, although a little off topic. Ground Zero the way it looks will remind anyone who passes by every time what happened even more than all those who are reminded of the happenings every day because a loved one or friend or co-worker died because of the terrorist attack. Is there a need for that?
__________________
"Everyone should have themselves regularly overwhelmed by Nature"
- George Harrison


FPSHOT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 23, 2010, 08:13 PM   #16
FPSHOT
Sun King
 
FPSHOT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 04, 2000
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 31,563



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorse23 View Post

Instead of calling it the "ground zero mosque," I read a columnist who suggest it be called the "landing gear mosque" since the landing gear of one of the planes was actually found atop of that very building.
Can you explain this please, since the way I take this is that this columnist talks about a mosque which is not even built yet, so how can the landing gear be found atop of a non existing building? It's a serious question btw.
__________________
"Everyone should have themselves regularly overwhelmed by Nature"
- George Harrison


FPSHOT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 23, 2010, 08:16 PM   #17
darkhorse23
Dr. Robert
 
darkhorse23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 10, 2008
Location: Phoenix, AZ (USA)
Posts: 1,117
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FPSHOT View Post
Can you explain this please, since the way I take this is that this columnist talks about a mosque which is not even built yet, so how can the landing gear be found atop of a non existing building? It's a serious question btw.
The building already exists. This mosque is not going to be built at an empty lot.
__________________
.
Deport illegal aliens.
End birthright citizenship.
www.americanpatrol.com[/color]
darkhorse23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 23, 2010, 08:18 PM   #18
Maia 66
Sun King
 
Join Date: Sep 09, 2009
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,360

Default

to you, 62hofner! Fight the good fight... the fight for tolerance and freedom from fear. I agree with you 100% and feel you've hit the nail on the head with your post describing the sub-text of this situation.

My father has a saying: "The good old days... they weren't so good." What I mean by quoting him is to point out that fear and intolerance have *always* been with us... in fact, believe it or not, things were worse before, because the "powers that be" controlled everything. But the problem these days is that there are more sophisticated ways of spreading messages of intolerance (tv, internet, etc.) and so the messages become all the more powerful... or diluted, in some cases.

I love that you posted two very appropriate videos because it just highlights the fact that we really need John and George right now... they spoke the truth (their truth) with little regard to how it was received by "the powers that be" (ok, so John did like to provoke a bit... ), but their messages were potent because they were loving and they reached people on a personal and profound level. Who is doing this now? Olbermann, Maher, yes... but they have a limited audience and their appeal is intellectual, not personal. Bono? Nah, I don't think so...

:
__________________

All I want is the truth
Just give me some truth...


Maia 66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 23, 2010, 08:20 PM   #19
FPSHOT
Sun King
 
FPSHOT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 04, 2000
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 31,563



Default

OK Thanks for that. Well the remark of the columnist certainly is a great way to create peace and together with the many people being against it for whatever reasons they may maybe have or just 'go with the flow' is in my view true food for terrorists.
__________________
"Everyone should have themselves regularly overwhelmed by Nature"
- George Harrison


FPSHOT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 23, 2010, 08:22 PM   #20
62hofner
Moderator
 
62hofner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 11, 2005
Location: Beautiful Downtown Burbank, CA
Posts: 6,041



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FPSHOT View Post
It most certainly does 62hofner (probably the first time I type your username in full ).

I agree to your arguments. I wonder what the serious arguments are from those who are against it, which I believe is about 65ish % of the US population ( who did the counting, if any? ) . Not just saying one is against it but also clarifying in reasonable argumentation the 'why'.

For instance I would like it if someone can tell me what else with an Islam or Muslim background is in the area around Ground Zero, like shops or anything.

For instance I wonder if those against it are aware that on 9/11 at what is now Ground Zero also people with and Islam or Muslim background were killed.

For instance I wonder if people who are against it know that many many many people with an Islam or Muslim background are very very very against what those terrorists did on 9/11 to name one date.
FPSHOT,

Yes.... people of ALL religions were killed that day. Muslims included... including a man who was a Port Authority Police officer who went in to try and save lives. They found his lower torso in 34 pieces.... also, there was a Muslim man who worked at the restaurant, "Windows To The World" in one of the towers. His son was born 48 hours after his death. Sad.

There are people who have never been to Manhattan before who are most likely part of that 65% who oppose it. They've don't know that two blocks in New York City is not a short distance.

What is happening is that they are moving from one location in New York City to this new one. There are other Muslim houses of worship in Manhattan, as well.

People who are opposed to it argue that it is "too close" and that it is an insult to New Yorkers and all of America to put it "so close" to the site of the WTC. I don't buy that argument....

1.) It's NOT "at" Ground Zero.

2.) I find it insulting to peaceful Muslims to make an argument that it is "too close". How far away does it need to be before it would be considered acceptable to these people? Three blocks? Four blocks? A mile? Two miles?

3.) America can NOT allow emotions and "sensitivity" to rule itself. We have a Constitution that provides for a place of worship to be built wherever they choose.

4.) We have an opportunity in this country to show the world that we ARE tolerant of ALL religions - even when we are faced with such an issue like a "mosque" in proximity to the attacks of 9/11.... and we are better than the intolerant fringe element that attacked us that day.
62hofner is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ground Rules for Posting Stories for Critique HMVNipper Paperback Writer 24 Feb 16, 2011 11:18 AM
Off The Ground videoclip taxman Red Rose Speedway 1 Aug 07, 2006 08:02 PM
Driving Rain vs. Off the Ground ;) jklein87 Red Rose Speedway 4 Oct 01, 2005 11:04 AM
Ground Control To Avril Lavigne... HMVNipper Here, There & Everywhere 14 Jan 11, 2003 12:11 PM
Ground Zero HMVNipper Not Only A Northern Song 14 Oct 04, 2001 01:38 AM


Advertisements

All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Site Features
Search Links

  Advanced Search
Category Jump



BeatleMail

FREE E-MAIL
@ BEATLEMAIL.COM


Username


Password




New User Sign-Up!
Lost Password?
Beatles History




Donate
The costs of running our database and discussion forum are steadily rising. Any help we receive is greatly appreciated. Click HERE for more information about donating to BeatleLinks.
Extras
» Chat Room
» Current News
» Monthly Contest
» Interviews Database
» Random Site
» Banner Exchange
» F.A.Q.
» Advertise
» Credits
» Legal
» Contact Us
Copyright © 2000-2019 BeatleLinks
All Rights Reserved