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Old Aug 03, 2011, 10:14 PM   #201
Apple Scruff
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Aeolian, you are so not jacking the thread. Your opinions and comments and totally within the topic of this thread and I'm glad you felt compelled to share your viewpoint. I want to make it clear that I am of the camp that fully realizes Paul's musical and vocal talents and I don't negate them one bit. I just feel more passionately and strongly about John's and I started that particular discussion within this thread because it was incredulous to me how some people- to give Paul merit- will slight John's extremely stunning voice. In polls, on YouTube comments, etc. I was shocked, and I had to be a good Lennon girl and speak up for something that just baffled me.

In any case, I agree there are definite Paul moments of emotional resonance. I have a personal list, so believe me I know.
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Old Aug 04, 2011, 07:14 AM   #202
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Thanks, Scruff, you're very kind. Truth be told, I'm even more impressed with Paul as an instrumentalist than as a vocalist. I should start a thread in the Paul forum ...
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Old Aug 04, 2011, 07:20 AM   #203
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Thanks, Scruff, you're very kind. Truth be told, I'm even more impressed with Paul as an instrumentalist than as a vocalist. I should start a thread in the Paul forum ...
Go for it.
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Old Aug 04, 2011, 08:04 AM   #204
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Like Scruffie said, AC, no threadjacking at all. And I hope you do start a thread in Red Rose Speedway so I can share some of my thoughts about Paul's singing post-Beatles.

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It's true he was more guarded, always has been, but there's a moment at the end of "Yesterday," for example, when I hear this flash of real vulnerability and it just grabs at my heart.
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. Yesterday moves me (no swooning, though ) and I think you hit it on the head... because Paul does bare a little of his soul in it. And I know we have discussed this before, but I think it's because he subconsciously wrote it for his mother. He definitely can be too guarded in his singing, which sometimes comes off as insincerity. But when he sings from his heart, like in My Love, it can bring some tingles to the ol' spine...
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Old Aug 04, 2011, 12:32 PM   #205
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Ok, have to get this off my chest. *breathe*

I was surfing through Tumblr and came across this quote, which I snipped. It was accmpanied by a series of pics as well. Here it is:



....
WOW...thanks for venting/sharing/explaining that story Apple! I remember that scene where Cyn missed the train, but I sure didn't realize there was such a controversy about it. I'm with you on this one Apple, people who hate on John look at instances like this to "prove" what a jerk he was or show how he "mistreated" his women.

I for one don't believe it. I think John may have has some blood-sugar problems (don't laugh!), in addition to poor nutrition/substance use that made him act short with people. I have hypoglycemia, which just means kinda the opposite of diabetes. I have to eat a high-protein/low-carb diet to feel good. I know from personal experience, that if my blood sugar drops and don't eat something high-protein asap, my attitude degrades very quickly. I am prone to have little patience, say things I don't mean, and from an outsider's point, act like an @ss/whiny child.

But it is certainly an exception, not a rule, and I believe this to be the case with John. Really, anyone who goes for long periods without proper food, under stress & pressure will not act like their normal, sweet self. I'm quite sure everyone knows what I'm talking about. For these trolls to act like they are immune to such behavior, or think that just because someone is successful and popular that they should be perfect all the time...well, I don't have time for those kinds of people. They need to get a life and stop tearing down people based on a few random, perfectly normal events.
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Old Aug 04, 2011, 02:02 PM   #206
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4iiis, I personally believe the "controversy" is just a bunch of people pushing the "John was a (fill in 4-letter word)" theory so they can justifiably hate on him. It seems ridiculous, but I have seen the same-old argument from the same people (sorry, the majority are Paul fans) and it just gets so... Guess this is what we have to deal with liking the "horrible human being" that was John.

In any case, I'm always going to be vocal about it because, like Maia said, and like we all know: if we had to list out all the flaws that the other 3 committed in their lives, I assure you John would hardly be alone. lol! Not even...

John's response:
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Old Aug 05, 2011, 11:32 PM   #207
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Something interesting I found on the Tube! Ok, it's an interview from 1980 with John and some guy. I don't know enough to identify the person who is interviewing John, but I know this much: they're in the studio mixing Double Fantasy and Fred Seaman is videotaping with John's camera.

What I find interesting here about this particular clip is that 1) John seems uber-mellow. Like, very low-key and quiet. He looks really cool, though I have to say way too skinny but whatever. And also, he seems slightly annoyed/distracted.

So the guy is asking him questions about Paul. Really mundane things like, "do you follow his chart progress" or something...and then he mentions at about 1:20 about "sales-wise." Anyway, John says this:

Quote:
"Sales-wise? Oh forget it. He always had more fans than me, even in the Cavern, so there's no comparison..."
I really, really liked that. It's John being real and honest. He's saying, basically, "I don't really care about the charts in terms of competing with Paul, because Paul will always be the more commercially appealing."



I really believe that John may have been slightly miffed about mass audiences not understanding or being as won over by his stuff as Paul, but at some point I think he accepted that his efforts were always far more complex, intricate, and personal for storms of people to want to buy up and go nuts over. He wasn't a stadium rocker and that was OK. John's thing was something entirely different, but I think so many people in general are caught up in the charts stuff WAY TOO MUCH. It's always nice to have success of course, but there is a point where an artist should be looked at for the quality of their work. I don't believe in the notion that, because you sold (large amount) of records and another person sold practically nothing that you are better because more people buy your stuff. There are too many examples that show the complete opposite.

I believe record sales are primarily about promotion and image control. John didn't always bother much with either, but that's what made him so special to me. He just put it out there- music and whatever was on his mind- and you either got it or you didn't. Maybe not the best way to go from a business perspective, but on an artistic standpoint it makes a lot of sense. In a sense, John had two mentalities: he was promoted and mainstreamed to death as a Beatle, so with his own work he wanted to come at you with a far more simplistic, raw, and honest approach. If it was in him to go the former route, he would have done so brilliantly. But I believe John had such a vast array of interests that promotion would just kill the buzz for him.

But anyway, umm...John? I know you say Paul had more fans but I also remember reading an Apple Scruff (not me- the real deal) account and she basically said Paul's fans were the younger type, George got the shier ones, Ringo had the fun ones, and John got the intellectual college-age girls and boys. I'm sure that John's fans were just as present but not quite as fan-girly. No offense.

Of course, if I was there? OMG, this would so be me John:



But of course in an intellectual, college-like way.
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Old Aug 06, 2011, 08:49 AM   #208
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Of course, if I was there? OMG, this would so be me John:

But of course in an intellectual, college-like way.
lol ~ A lot of us intellectual, college-like girls did that too, my dear!

John does look mellow , yes, but notice how he doesn't stop talking? That's our Johnny... he loved to be inside, but when he wasn't sleeping or in bed for other fun stuff, or making music, or reading, he was probably always yakking about something or other. It's his nervous energy and his active mind.

Scruffie, you know how I feel on this subject... it's been discussed in PMs as well as on the boards a bit. BUT... John brings up a really good point that I once tried to start a discussion topic on, but no one really responded. He mentioned something like, "Well, if I'd've been there, I would've suggested to Paul that..." For sooooooooooooo much of Paul's solo/Wings music (and I stopped listening pretty much after London Town), I think a lot of his good stuff would have been great if John were there to kibbitz and add his two cents.

My best example is the song BOTR. Now, I do think that one is great already... but if John were there, he would have cut out the Jailer Man and Sailor Sam straight away... even as a kid, that line bugged me! But there are tons of other examples about the way Paul recorded stuff, his voice, the backing vocals (lots of weird backing vocals that need to be refined, imho)... I dunno. I was listening to Ram the other day and there are some really lovely songs that I personally just don't get why they sound the way they do... Back Seat of My Car is an example. A great bit of songwriting, for sure... absolutely lovely song, but I feel Paul didn't do it justice. Paul's own backing vocals sound as if he's making fun of his own song. In this video, it's about 0:30 in and repeats a couple of times later:


Anyway, Paul did a lot of that stuff in my opinion... I just don't get it. And later on with Wings there was an uber-cutesy thing he would do with his voice that drove me crazy... and I was a pre-teen/young teen Beatlemaniac who had this poster on her bedroom wall:


And don't get me started on Silly Love Songs... Anyway, this is an age-old discussion... and we all know that what's popular is not always what's great. But that sometimes, the public gets it... the Beatles are the perfect example of that. They were actually the best to be found at the time that they were topping the charts... that's rarely ever true.

What makes me sad is that John never lived to hear all these cool covers of his songs... He should have checked out this thread, because it would have made him see that people did appreciate his songs as much as they did Paul's... there are some very reverential, creative, cool-ass remakes of John's stuff. I mean, how tickled would John have been to know that Johnny effing Cash sang In My Life???
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Old Aug 06, 2011, 11:28 AM   #209
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John brings up a really good point that I once tried to start a discussion topic on, but no one really responded. He mentioned something like, "Well, if I'd've been there, I would've suggested to Paul that..." For sooooooooooooo much of Paul's solo/Wings music (and I stopped listening pretty much after London Town), I think a lot of his good stuff would have been great if John were there to kibbitz and add his two cents.
Absolutely. I like to think that street went both ways, but absolutely John brought out the best in Paul and the loss of that creative partnership was huge.
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Old Aug 06, 2011, 09:02 PM   #210
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lol ~ A lot of us intellectual, college-like girls did that too, my dear!
Well dang Maia. I approve.

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John does look mellow , yes, but notice how he doesn't stop talking? That's our Johnny... he loved to be inside, but when he wasn't sleeping or in bed for other fun stuff, or making music, or reading, he was probably always yakking about something or other. It's his nervous energy and his active mind.
Yes, he was rather talkative. I think maybe because it's more intimate, but for some reason he seems quieter. It could be that was just him not "on," which isn't very far away from him when he was "on." And that impresses me. He was so fascinating even in casual conversation with random journalists, or whoever that guy is.

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Scruffie, you know how I feel on this subject... it's been discussed in PMs as well as on the boards a bit. BUT... John brings up a really good point that I once tried to start a discussion topic on, but no one really responded. He mentioned something like, "Well, if I'd've been there, I would've suggested to Paul that..." For sooooooooooooo much of Paul's solo/Wings music (and I stopped listening pretty much after London Town), I think a lot of his good stuff would have been great if John were there to kibbitz and add his two cents.
This. I 'aint going to beat about the bush, Paul's solo career is my third favorite of the 4 ex-Beatles. It isn't that I feel his music sucks (well not all of it), but I'm just not as passionately into most of it. I am a fan of Ram and Band On The Run. Neither of them are "perfect" to me, but they are really, really great albums (ugh, I LOVE "Jet" OK? Amongst some of the others...). I'm more into the musicality than the actual songwriting if anything. McCartney has some lovely songs on it, especially "Maybe I'm Amazed" with that vocal that I feel was probably his most passionate/heartfelt in his entire career. Personally speaking. The rest of his 1970's albums I can only pick a few songs off of, and the 1980's I'm not into. Sorry, even Tug Of War- which does have some good songs- is just not moving to me. I don't care for the studio version of "Here Today" at all. It's lackluster and dull, whereas the live version is simply beautiful and so heartfelt...I guess I just find his stuff to be, well, not my thing too much. I loved Chaos and Creation In The backyard, but now I listen to it and "meh" I pick a few songs and move on, same with Flaming Pie. Believe me, I have it all. His Firemen album was different and quirky, but nothing really stayed with me...

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My best example is the song BOTR. Now, I do think that one is great already... but if John were there, he would have cut out the Jailer Man and Sailor Sam straight away... even as a kid, that line bugged me!
Ugh, that line...and the song is pretty good. Musically, I like it a lot but the words sort of make it a *tad* corny. I don't know.

Quote:
But there are tons of other examples about the way Paul recorded stuff, his voice, the backing vocals (lots of weird backing vocals that need to be refined, imho)... I dunno. I was listening to Ram the other day and there are some really lovely songs that I personally just don't get why they sound the way they do... Back Seat of My Car is an example. A great bit of songwriting, for sure... absolutely lovely song, but I feel Paul didn't do it justice. Paul's own backing vocals sound as if he's making fun of his own song. In this video, it's about 0:30 in and repeats a couple of times later:
Yeah, this for me. I really enjoy some of the backing vocals on BOTR, but some of the Ram stuff not too much- though I am a fan of that album.

Quote:
Anyway, Paul did a lot of that stuff in my opinion... I just don't get it. And later on with Wings there was an uber-cutesy thing he would do with his voice that drove me crazy... and I was a pre-teen/young teen Beatlemaniac who had this poster on her bedroom wall:
lol! I never got into solo Paul to the point of having a poster. My dad had all the records. I played the All The Best and Ram the most. I freaking HATED that McCartney II...ugh, I was WAY more into George and (obviously) John solo.

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And don't get me started on Silly Love Songs... Anyway, this is an age-old discussion... and we all know that what's popular is not always what's great. But that sometimes, the public gets it... the Beatles are the perfect example of that. They were actually the best to be found at the time that they were topping the charts... that's rarely ever true.
SLS= great bass, cutesy song. Umm....ok I'm going to bite my tongue. I agree about everything you said above.

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What makes me sad is that John never lived to hear all these cool covers of his songs... He should have checked out this thread, because it would have made him see that people did appreciate his songs as much as they did Paul's... there are some very reverential, creative, cool-ass remakes of John's stuff. I mean, how tickled would John have been to know that Johnny effing Cash sang In My Life???
Freaking yes!!! And my husband, who is like a music connoisseur to the max (that list you made of songs you would have discussed with John Maia, he loves all that stuff especially the Clash- we both do of course) is mainly a fan of all John's stuff. Without me saying a word because he doesn't like hype. John's songs really aged well and they are still mind-blowing all these years later.

I wish he'd known...but the fact that he was unaware makes him sort of Van Gogh-esque to me.
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Old Aug 12, 2011, 07:34 AM   #211
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Thank you Legs for making this a Sticky thread!
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Old Aug 15, 2011, 09:07 AM   #212
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Ok, yeah...the Paul stuff killed this thread...Yikes, not a person has more to say on the matter, so let's move along shall we? Here is my new query...what do you all make of this May Pang quote:

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May: "John had spent his life surrounded by people who wanted to manipulate him and his feelings. I could not have lived with myself if I became one of them. I did not want to be John's new mother. He had already begun to ask my opinion about his every move. He wanted me to be his Mother, but I would not do it. I wanted John to stand on his own and I wanted to play straight with him. At his core, John was a frightened man. He dealt with his fear of women by allowing himself to be manipulated by them. He dealt with his fear of men by manipulating them. He could do it by fixing them with his piercing stare, by speaking to them firmly in an authoritative voice. . . . In reality, John allowed almost no one to become his close friend."
I found it on this page:

http://blog.beatletracksband.com/201...-epilogue.aspx

while just searching around. I don't know anything about that site or how legitimate it is, but the quote is interesting and I want some opinions. Please.
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Old Aug 15, 2011, 07:44 PM   #213
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I think that's a very insightful comment from May, and imo it sounds about right. John was a very guarded person, which I think stemmed from his early childhood feelings of rejection. In order to prevent himself from being hurt by others again, he kept them at a bit of a distance. That's not to say that he couldn't be a warm and caring person... he was a true and often loyal friend to several men, but if he felt competitive with them (Stu, Paul), problems would arise... with the ones he didn't feel competitive with (like Ringo and Pete), he held them in great affection probably because they didn't place any emotional demands on him.

However, with the women that he DID let into his heart, I think May was right in saying that he allowed them to manipulate him... like Julia did, like Mimi very forcefully did, and like he allowed Yoko to do. (And I'm not hating on Yoko... I think he invited her to take a certain amount of control in their relationship.) That's probably part of why things didn't work out with Cyn... she wasn't a controlling sort.
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Old Aug 16, 2011, 09:19 AM   #214
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I think that's a very insightful comment from May, and imo it sounds about right. John was a very guarded person, which I think stemmed from his early childhood feelings of rejection. In order to prevent himself from being hurt by others again, he kept them at a bit of a distance. That's not to say that he couldn't be a warm and caring person... he was a true and often loyal friend to several men, but if he felt competitive with them (Stu, Paul), problems would arise... with the ones he didn't feel competitive with (like Ringo and Pete), he held them in great affection probably because they didn't place any emotional demands on him.
Even as a young boy, he had an extremely strong temperament and seemed to know what he wanted. Yet there were times, as Pete illustrates in his book, where he really needed reassurance. I think it is true he manipulated men, but I think he knew his limits with each one. Like, I wouldn't know enough how and to what extent he manipulated Brian, but I know he had to. He was extremely bright and had a certain kind of charisma that appealed to both men and women. I've read so many accounts of people who met him, or knew and loved him, and it's unanimous across the board that he was endlessly endearing and captivating to both sexes. So he knew his power and how to employ it, even as a young boy. I guess he may have practiced on Uncle George.

With Stu, I think John considered him his artistic counterpart image. Like the friendship between van Gogh and Gauguin or T.S. Elliot and Ezra Pound. He respected Stuart for his brilliance, and there was an absolute mutual respect there. I believe John had a tinge of competitiveness with this kind of dynamic and this applied in a different way for his relationship with Paul. Because, although Paul couldn't threaten John in intellectual quickness and assertiveness, he was more musically adept. So these two men were both held extremely close, but at the same time there was an underlying threat.

Honestly, I think that makes a lot of sense for any relationship between two people who have a great deal of talent in similar areas, but with John and his ego and his importance in being the one in charge, I think it is more emphasized.

Quote:
However, with the women that he DID let into his heart, I think May was right in saying that he allowed them to manipulate him... like Julia did, like Mimi very forcefully did, and like he allowed Yoko to do. (And I'm not hating on Yoko... I think he invited her to take a certain amount of control in their relationship.) That's probably part of why things didn't work out with Cyn... she wasn't a controlling sort.
I agree 100% with this. Absolutely. I think it was in John's physiological makeup to allow himself to be controlled, to an extent, by a female. I think he felt more secure and protected and in a sense it made up for the vacancy that his mother created in his life. I personally feel that Yoko certainly was a strong lady but perhaps she didn't intentionally take advantage of John's weaknesses as much as just settle into the role he wanted her to encompass. I'm not saying Yoko didn't use it to her own benefit, but I'm also thinking she was weary that- as Maia very perfectly put it- that OTHER John should become alert and, well, you know...
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Old Aug 20, 2011, 01:14 PM   #215
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I think that's a very insightful comment from May, and imo it sounds about However, with the women that he DID let into his heart, I think May was right in saying that he allowed them to manipulate him... like Julia did, like Mimi very forcefully did, and like he allowed Yoko to do. (And I'm not hating on Yoko... I think he invited her to take a certain amount of control in their relationship.) That's probably part of why things didn't work out with Cyn... she wasn't a controlling sort.
Hi Maia

I also fully agree with this

Although John had a strong will, he allowed those who were close to manipulate him. Unfortunately, Cyn wasn't that close to him and not on the same intellectual level and that's why she couldn't really "get into him" mentally speaking, like Yoko did. Furthermore, he drifted away from her while having acid-trips. When John felt depressed after touring and didn't know what he was looking for, he found the answers in Yoko.

I believe that through Yoko he exposed his hidden sides like expressing openly his political views, his opinion about peace, feminism etc. Yoko was obviously the impuls he was looking for.

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Old Aug 23, 2011, 09:02 PM   #216
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Hi Maia

I also fully agree with this

Although John had a strong will, he allowed those who were close to manipulate him. Unfortunately, Cyn wasn't that close to him and not on the same intellectual level and that's why she couldn't really "get into him" mentally speaking, like Yoko did. Furthermore, he drifted away from her while having acid-trips. When John felt depressed after touring and didn't know what he was looking for, he found the answers in Yoko.

I believe that through Yoko he exposed his hidden sides like expressing openly his political views, his opinion about peace, feminism etc. Yoko was obviously the impuls he was looking for.

Snoopy
Hey Snoopy! I think you expressed yourself so well (as always) in this post and I agree with much of what you are saying.

The thing that really got me thinking was when you mentioned the part about being "close." That is very perceptive! Wow. I never considered this as a possible factor in the disintegration of their marriage, but it's now crystal clear. I think they were both very different and fell in love with one another's differences. Sometimes I believe Cynthia has this belief that she was flawless and perfect in her marriage, but obviously no one is. John's failings as a husband are notorious, but what we never get is a truly balanced view of this marriage because John never dished dirt on Cynthia. Not once. I will say this: I may be the only person who actually understood perfectly what John meant in his 1980 comment regarding Julian being born out of a bottle of whiskey on a Saturday night. Cynthia isn't quite so quick, or probably a little too sensitive/touchy. Because what John said was an idiom for unplanned pregnancy, ok? He wasn't saying he literally drank whisky and Julian was thus consummated, but that the child was not expected. It's just a fact, not a dig. And she reacted to that comment like it was meant to personally insult her and Julian.

I guess I'm not really offended, but then again I wasn't the wife/mother. But still, I can imagine myself in that scenario and if my husband (or ex-husband) said something like that I'd probably be like, "yep, pretty much. But after he was born he was very much loved/wanted."

It's something like that, of her not really understanding John's expressions or taking offense at things that sound seemingly harsh but weren't meant to be so, that show me a mere glimpse of how they were different in a not-so-great way. Instead of her saying, "That was John" or "He said that but he meant this" she actually got offended. And to me the comment was such a one-off that I just don't see what is so horrible about it.

Maybe I'm a cold-hearted, unfeeling monster myself. Hey John! I'm with you I guess.
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Old Aug 24, 2011, 12:33 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Apple Scruff View Post
Hey Snoopy! I think you expressed yourself so well (as always) in this post and I agree with much of what you are saying.

The thing that really got me thinking was when you mentioned the part about being "close." That is very perceptive! Wow. I never considered this as a possible factor in the disintegration of their marriage, but it's now crystal clear. I think they were both very different and fell in love with one another's differences. Sometimes I believe Cynthia has this belief that she was flawless and perfect in her marriage, but obviously no one is. John's failings as a husband are notorious, but what we never get is a truly balanced view of this marriage because John never dished dirt on Cynthia. Not once. I will say this: I may be the only person who actually understood perfectly what John meant in his 1980 comment regarding Julian being born out of a bottle of whiskey on a Saturday night. Cynthia isn't quite so quick, or probably a little too sensitive/touchy. Because what John said was an idiom for unplanned pregnancy, ok? He wasn't saying he literally drank whisky and Julian was thus consummated, but that the child was not expected. It's just a fact, not a dig. And she reacted to that comment like it was meant to personally insult her and Julian.

I guess I'm not really offended, but then again I wasn't the wife/mother. But still, I can imagine myself in that scenario and if my husband (or ex-husband) said something like that I'd probably be like, "yep, pretty much. But after he was born he was very much loved/wanted."

It's something like that, of her not really understanding John's expressions or taking offense at things that sound seemingly harsh but weren't meant to be so, that show me a mere glimpse of how they were different in a not-so-great way. Instead of her saying, "That was John" or "He said that but he meant this" she actually got offended. And to me the comment was such a one-off that I just don't see what is so horrible about it.

Maybe I'm a cold-hearted, unfeeling monster myself. Hey John! I'm with you I guess.
Hi Scruffie

Thank's for your interesting analysis (as always) and I'm glad that you understood what I meant

In a way I find it scary to be married with someone and NOT being close enough to understand him and get to him, but this obviously was the case between John and Cyn.

Your statement "I think they were both very different and fell in love with one another's differences. Sometimes I believe Cynthia has this belief that she was flawless and perfect in her marriage, but obviously no one is." is very true indeed. Though I really believe that Cyn did her best to save her marriage, but failed. John on the other hand, didn't do much efforts and I have the impression he just "waited" passively till he met Yoko

Well, it's also true that John never dished dirt on Cyn, but you also have to admit that he treated her rather badly during their divorce

About John's comment regarding Julian being born out of a bottle of whiskey on a Saturday night: Hmm, maybe Cyn reacted a bit too touchy, o.k. But have you ever thought how YOU would think about this in Julian's place ? If my father had said this I would not feel flattered, but of course, knowing John for his weird sense of humour Seriously: I agree it was another way of pointing out that it was an unplanned pregnancy. But was it necessary to say it that way ? I think it was a bit tactless of John, although I'm sure it wasn't meant as an insult. I can't blame too much Cyn for feeling so, as I'm very sensitive myself . John could have added (as you presume) "oh, but after he was born, Julian was pretty much wanted". No wonder that Julian always had the feeling of being less loved than Sean; don't you think so ?

Anyway, I don't think that you are cold-hearted at all, just very realistic and obviously you "get" more into John's mind and feelings than Cyn did

Snoopy
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Old Aug 24, 2011, 05:56 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Snoopy66 View Post

Well, it's also true that John never dished dirt on Cyn, but you also have to admit that he treated her rather badly during their divorce
Yes he did. Not going to beat around the bush on that fact.

Quote:
About John's comment regarding Julian being born out of a bottle of whiskey on a Saturday night: Hmm, maybe Cyn reacted a bit too touchy, o.k. But have you ever thought how YOU would think about this in Julian's place ? If my father had said this I would not feel flattered, but of course, knowing John for his weird sense of humour Seriously: I agree it was another way of pointing out that it was an unplanned pregnancy. But was it necessary to say it that way ? I think it was a bit tactless of John, although I'm sure it wasn't meant as an insult.
I understand what you're saying Snoopy.But see, John wasn't being funny, he wasn't trying to make some "witty" comparison: he was being honest about his circumstances surrounding fatherhood as a young man vs. his circumstances as an older person. He didn't say this to his son's face; he related it in an interview, and then he states clearly:

Quote:
"I don't love Julian any less as a child. He's still my son, whether he came from a bottle of whiskey or because they didn't have pills in those days. He's here, he belongs to me, and he always will."
Yes, I agree with you that his comment lacks tact, but the overall intent wasn't meant to be taken as an insult. Cynthia's reaction didn't warrant all the overdone, "Well, we didn't even drink whiskey in those days" and "Julian was conceived in love." John wasn't even saying that he wasn't conceived in love, but that he was NOT PLANNED. It just seems like she overreacted to me. Like, in that particular example I can see that Cynthia probably just didn't understand John. Something as simple as that comment to be taken out of context and misunderstood seems to demonstrate that to me. I like Cynthia a lot. Snoopy and other Cyn fans, but I always felt that part of the reason she and John didn't work out- even way before Yoko came in the picture- is because she seemed to lose a grasp on "getting" him.

But it couldn't have been easy for her to get him. If you read her book, she's quite conventional and clear. There is no humor or wit or any anecdotes that show her to have a very fun or silly side to her personality. In John's defense, I guess his character and hers were too different to really last. Especially when someone is not trying hard enough to make it do so (John).


Quote:
I can't blame too much Cyn for feeling so, as I'm very sensitive myself . John could have added (as you presume) "oh, but after he was born, Julian was pretty much wanted". No wonder that Julian always had the feeling of being less loved than Sean; don't you think so ?
Well, John seemed to have a HARD time being demonstratively sentimental to those he loved- especially in interviews. Look at him and Paul, for example. And he loved Paul. I think John's statement after his example, the quote I quoted above, is as good as we get from him in that regard (in interview format any way).

I think when it came to Julian, John had a hard time showing his emotions. If you ever read those books written about his last days, he seemed to be truly obsessed with Julian and talked about him non-stop to people. But then he'd have Julian there and it was harder for him to express all his love. Although, in the last few years it seemed they were breaking down walls and they were getting much closer. It baffles me to think people say things like "he didn't love his son" when they didn't know what he felt in his heart. If the man was always talking about his son and worried over him, how does that showcase him being a "heartless" and "cruel" father? He had a lot to learn and discover about being a parent from 1963 to 1980, and thank goodness he "got it" before it was too late and no steps were made. It's just terrible that it had to end so tragically for that family- for BOTH the children, not just Julian.
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Last edited by Apple Scruff : Aug 24, 2011 at 05:51 PM.
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Old Aug 24, 2011, 05:47 PM   #219
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A lot of the quotes that John gets the most s**t for just go over people's heads, I think... I mean, truly, he was so intelligent and so insightful that sometimes you have to stop a moment and go, "Oh, yeah... he's got a good point." Things you may never have thought of, or put quite in that way. He just had a knack of being honest and deeply penetrating in his social commentary... because he was so keenly aware of his surroundings.

It's become quite the cliché to say that we need him desperately these days, BUT... we need him desperately these days!
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Old Aug 24, 2011, 11:34 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Maia 66 View Post
A lot of the quotes that John gets the most s**t for just go over people's heads, I think... I mean, truly, he was so intelligent and so insightful that sometimes you have to stop a moment and go, "Oh, yeah... he's got a good point."

It's become quite the cliché to say that we need him desperately these days, BUT... we need him desperately these days!
Hi Maia

I can fully agree to that. It may takes some time to understand John's thinking, humour, wit etc. You have to "deal" with his complex personality to get what he really meant with all his statements. But when you finally do, you say "Oh yeah...." as you quoted

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