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Old May 19, 2014, 04:34 PM   #21
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Hmm...I'm not sure if you understand what I meant here. Those songs I listed by Eminem are not obscure. I don't really have to dig through any obscure tracks to find songs of his that remind me of John. He exposes his vulnerability in plenty of his lyrics that are well known.
Well, there you have it. The vulnerability isn't the first thing I think of when considering John as an artist. To me, what John stands for most of all isn't his honest exposure of his feelings, although he did that all the time, but what an incredible wordsmith he was. John was no slough with music composition but my, the way he had with words! The wit, the unexpected phrase, that way to express something difficult so it made sense, that to me is John's greatest asset as a writer. I do not see Em's lyrics as anything out of the ordinary when it comes to the turn of a phrase.

John has always been eminently quotable. For every situation there's a John quote to go with it! In a way he could be Everyman, somehow. I do not see that same humanity, if you will, with Em. He has a much more narrow focus. It seemed to me John was always busy trying to make sense of the world, people around him and himself, in that order, while in Em's life it's himself first and then maybe the rest of the world. If that's unfair, so be it, but that's how he strikes me.

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Perhaps because English is not your first language, you may not realize that it is offensive to tell someone that something they did is "crap"... especially if they did nothing to provoke you.
Oh, the joy of international relationships!

Actually, 'crap' isn't that bad a word in British English, you know? Granted it's not pretty, it's certainly not polite, but it's not precisely highly offensive either. I can think of other expressions that are much worse!
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Old May 19, 2014, 05:28 PM   #22
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I don't agree at all with that statement, sorry. Kurt had some talent for sure, but comparing his obviously disturbed personality with John's is crap.
Oh he had "some" talent, you know, just a voice for an entire generation of young people who could relate deeply to so many of the feelings he expressed in his work: his pain, his rage, his love. What the f**k Snoopy! You need to get out of that cave and live a little. You did well with John. Maybe someone dropped the Imagine album into that cave accidentally and you had no other choice but to get hooked (because let's be honest we all would), but woman you need to RECOGNIZE that people suffer. John suffered, Kurt suffered. Calling Kurt "disturbed" is a rough summation of an incredibly talented soul, who I grew up loving.

I never thought about comparing John with ANYONE. I think I get the Eminem and Kurt comparisons. I really do. I actually like both of them. I agree that Eminem is angry as f**k, or was, but it's understandable. We also need to understand that John and Eminem are two men separated by 32 years of life and culture change. There might be more anger in Eminem because he might have had it rougher than John.

I think we need to have some song analyses and other comparisons here. I would but I can't be bothered. Where do I find stuff, youtube? I'll play.
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Old May 19, 2014, 06:27 PM   #23
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Actually, 'crap' isn't that bad a word in British English, you know? Granted it's not pretty, it's certainly not polite, but it's not precisely highly offensive either. I can think of other expressions that are much worse!
Actually, crap isn't that offensive a word in American English either. But telling someone that something they did was crap is offensive. Unless you're close to that person... and Snoop and I are not exactly BFFs, y'know? And I know you're just stirring the sh-- er, I mean, crap, but ad hominem attacks are just not cool.
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Old May 19, 2014, 06:42 PM   #24
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I think we need to have some song analyses and other comparisons here.
Yeah, I agree. I did three already. Okay, since you're such a lazy b!tch, why don't I suggest a song and you comment? Hell, I'll even post the vids for you!

Eminem song... The Way I Am:


Nirvana song... You Know You're Right:


Oh, and another comparison? Hmmm... how about Morrissey?
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Old May 19, 2014, 06:53 PM   #25
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Old May 19, 2014, 07:47 PM   #26
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Nirvana song... You Know You're Right:
This song gets to me. I guess because of the circumstances surrounding it; I believe this was the song Kurt wrote right before his suicide, but it's not certain. Even still, the darkness prevails. I believe the music was written way before the lyrics were completed, but in any case the song is so reflective of his mood...it's a mood propelled song- his tone, the words, the music all convey someone who is going through a very rough time.

I always will consider Kurt an insular songwriter, because I think much of his music and words are propelled by his own emotions. Whatever mood he was in, I felt that strongly influenced how dark, light, heavy, or less heavy the song was.

I suppose if I had to choose a John song to compare, I would pick several. Bits of God, a verse or two from I'm Losing You, maybe a little bit of that mood in Well Well Well.

Actually, some Nirvana songs that remind me of Plastic Ono Band are In Bloom, Endless Nameless, Sliver, and Where Did You Sleep Last Night?

This is sort of why I was really not thrilled about Macca fronting Nirvana that one time. Um...it just seemed like a very commercial, inappropriate fit.

I wanted Polly Jean Harvey, who is my favorite female artist and one that Kurt idolized. He adored her so much a few of her albums were in his top 5. But I digress...
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Old May 19, 2014, 07:51 PM   #27
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Yeah, I agree. I did three already. Okay, since you're such a lazy b!tch, why don't I suggest a song and you comment? Hell, I'll even post the vids for you!

Eminem song... The Way I Am:
My GAWD this reminds me of John. But just a modern version with more cussing. It reminds me of this one, but the two men are so autobiographical- blatantly so- that I compare this type of stuff to POB as a whole.

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Old May 19, 2014, 07:54 PM   #28
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Oh, and another comparison? Hmmm... how about Morrissey?
It's tough, Maia. I find Morissey particularly unlikable to an extreme, whereas John was SO likable. Even John at his most indulgent, controversial, and hopping all the bandwagons was charming, charismatic, absolutely delightful. And when he wasn't he was at least funny.

Morissey is a phenomenal poet whom I love as an artist, but I just find him so insufferable. I guess I'll try and see what I can find...
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Old May 20, 2014, 11:19 AM   #29
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And I know you're just stirring the sh-- er, I mean, crap
Moi? Not possible!

Hey, are we now saying that every musician with a troubled mind is to be compared to John? Or what is the criteria here? Inquiring minds wants to know!
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Old May 20, 2014, 01:32 PM   #30
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Hey, are we now saying that every musician with a troubled mind is to be compared to John? Or what is the criteria here? Inquiring minds wants to know!
Nope, just brilliant ones who are able to command the attention of an audience on a UNIVERSAL scale and can grapple with the emotions of their audience through the art THEY have made (i.e. not written for them).
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Old May 20, 2014, 04:06 PM   #31
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Nope, just brilliant ones who are able to command the attention of an audience on a UNIVERSAL scale and can grapple with the emotions of their audience through the art THEY have made (i.e. not written for them).
'Brilliant' is in the eye of the beholder, or in this case ear of the hearer. It's too subjective. Besides, a lot of really famous artists can lay claim on commanding the attention of their audience etc. without for a moment beg comparison with John. Why these guys in particular? To me they seem no more 'brilliant' than many other artists that have had to claw their way to fame. I don't get the John connection at all, sorry.
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Old May 20, 2014, 07:09 PM   #32
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'Brilliant' is in the eye of the beholder, or in this case ear of the hearer. It's too subjective. Besides, a lot of really famous artists can lay claim on commanding the attention of their audience etc. without for a moment beg comparison with John. Why these guys in particular? To me they seem no more 'brilliant' than many other artists that have had to claw their way to fame. I don't get the John connection at all, sorry.
Well, I'll respect your right to feel as you do. I personally consider Eminem to be brilliant and one of the most, if not THE most, formidable talent in his genre of music. And I pretty much explained what it is about him and his distinctive style of writing that reminds me of John- apart from the command of his audience. Obviously, there are loads of differences and I was never implying that everything was similar. But, for me, I see a lot of similarities. Even in their life stories.

Here's a song I'm listening to a lot lately that showcases what I mean when I say how very different he is from so many of the modern acts of today. Not many I can think of are as beautifully autobiographical and can stir your emotions at the same time (WARNING: language)...



Headlights

Mom, I know I let you down
And though you say the days are happy
Why is the power off, and I'm f***** up?
And, Mom, I know he's not around
But don't you place the blame on me
As you pour yourself another drink, yeah.


I went in headfirst
Never thinking about who what I said hurt, in what verse
My mom probably got it the worst
The brunt of it, but as stubborn as we are
Did I take it too far?
"Cleaning Out My Closet" and all them other songs
But regardless I don't hate you 'cause, Ma,
You're still beautiful to me, 'cause you're my mom
Though far be it from you to be calm, our house was Vietnam
Desert Storm and both of us put together can form an atomic bomb equivalent to Chemical warfare
And forever we can drag this on and on
But, agree to disagree
That gift from me up under the Christmas tree don't mean s*** to me
You're kicking me out? It's 15 degrees and it's Christmas Eve (little p***k just leave)
Ma, let me grab my f*****g coat, anything to have each other's goats
Why we always at each other's throats?
Especially when dad, he f****d us both
We're in the same f*****g boat, you'd think that it'd make us close (nope)
Further away it drove us, but together headlights shine, a car full of belongings
Still got a ways to go, back to grandma's house it's straight up the road
And I was the man of the house, the oldest, so my shoulders carried the weight of the load
Then Nate got taken away by the state at eight years old,
And that's when I realized you were sick and it wasn't fixable or changeable
And to this day we remained estranged and I hate it though, but

I guess we are who we are
Headlights shining in the dark night I drive on
Maybe we took this too far


'Cause to this day we remain estranged and I hate it though
'Cause you ain't even get to witness your grand babies grow
But I'm sorry, Mama, for "Cleaning Out My Closet", at the time I was angry
Rightfully maybe so, never meant that far to take it though,
'cause now I know it's not your fault, and I'm not making jokes
That song I no longer play at shows and I cringe every time it's on the radio
And I think of Nathan being placed in a home
And all the medicine you fed us
And how I just wanted you to taste your own,
But now the medications taken over
And your mental state's deteriorating slow
And I'm way too old to cry, the s**t is painful though
But, Ma, I forgive you, so does Nathan, yo
All you did, all you said, you did your best to raise us both
Foster care, that cross you bear, few may be as heavy as yours
But I love you, Debbie Mathers, oh, what a tangled web we have,
'cause one thing I never asked was
Where the f*** my deadbeat dad was
F*** it, I guess he had trouble keeping up with every address
But I'd have flipped every mattress, every rock and desert cactus
Own a collection of maps and followed my kids to the edge of the atlas
Someone ever moved them from me? That you coulda bet your a**es
If I had to come down the chimney dressed as Santa, kidnap them
And although the one has only met their grandma once
You pulled up in our drive one night as we were leaving to get some hamburgers
Me, her and Nate, we introduced you, hugged you
And as you left I had this overwhelming sadness come over me
As we pulled off to go our separate paths,
And I saw your headlights as I looked back
And I'm mad I didn't get the chance to thank you for being my Mom and my Dad
So, Mom, please accept this as a tribute I wrote this on the jet
I guess I had to get this off my chest,
I hope I get the chance to lay it before I'm dead
The stewardess said to fasten my seatbelt, I guess we're crashing
So if I'm not dreaming, I hope you get this message that I'll always love you from afar
'Cause you're my Ma

I guess we are who we are
Headlights shining in the dark night I drive on
Maybe we took this too far


I want a new life (start over)
One without a cause (clean slate)
So I'm coming home tonight (yeah)
Well, no matter what the cost
And if the plane goes down
Or if the crew can't wake me up
Well, just know that I'm alright
I was not afraid to die
Oh, even if there's songs to sing
Well, my children will carry me
Just know that I'm alright
I was not afraid to die
Because I put my faith in my little girls
So I never say, "Goodbye, cruel world."
Just know that I'm alright
I am not afraid to die


I want a new life
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Old May 20, 2014, 09:54 PM   #33
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Why these guys in particular?
Their songs often have a self-revelatory nature that's also self-deprecating... and with a certain amount of angst and humor. They all show their vulnerable sides, but manage to do so without sounding wimpy. And they all have a healthy disregard for BS.
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Old Jun 01, 2014, 11:03 AM   #34
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Post John & other artists

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Look at this I found

(Observe the right hand column!)
Interesting link indeed; thank's Scruffie

Speaking of the introspective lyrics of their songs, there are no doubt similarities between John and Eminem, but I'd say the comparison stops here then.

Musically speaking, I would compare John with David Bowie, they make both similar music in the early 70's and also Elton John.

Any thoughts ?

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Old Jun 02, 2014, 06:43 PM   #35
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Interesting link indeed; thank's Scruffie

Speaking of the introspective lyrics of their songs, there are no doubt similarities between John and Eminem, but I'd say the comparison stops here then.

Musically speaking, I would compare John with David Bowie, they make both similar music in the early 70's and also Elton John.

Any thoughts ?

Snoopy
Interesting comparison Snoopy! I think David was very influenced by John and The Beatles, obviously, and there are so many little subtle/not-so-subtle references to John and The Beatles in his music. Shoot, they even made a song together! I think David is amazing- a chameleon, a showman, and very unique. There are hints of John there, sure, and I even see a little of Elvis in David as well. I think John's music hit a far deeper chord. It's almost too difficult to compare him to many artists.

I feel like there are artists who have said deep things in their music, but it was more like reading a paper or telling a story. But to open yourself up and be so autobiographical in your art takes a certain level of talent that is very rare to find. John...
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Old Jun 02, 2014, 07:00 PM   #36
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May I say - Joni Mitchell? Not in musical style but her lyrics are deeply personal, whether she writes about her own life or social issues. They touch you, just as John's songs do because they aren't written to be catchy or sell millions but because the artist feels driven inside to get it out there. Still, she's a woman and it's acceptable for women to hang out their feelings. Few, if any, male artists have been as open about their fears and flaws as John.
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Old Jun 03, 2014, 10:37 AM   #37
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May I say - Joni Mitchell? Not in musical style but her lyrics are deeply personal, whether she writes about her own life or social issues. They touch you, just as John's songs do because they aren't written to be catchy or sell millions but because the artist feels driven inside to get it out there. Still, she's a woman and it's acceptable for women to hang out their feelings. Few, if any, male artists have been as open about their fears and flaws as John.
Come on hibgirl- Joni Mitchell? Are you f****ng kidding me? I like Joni, always dug her poetic abilities and her pro-feminist mantras, however she is pretty f***ing boring. Just because she was able to convey some depth in her music doesn't put her on par with John. She's the musical equivalent of a Xanax for crying out loud. She's also not a very likable person, whereas John was one of the most naturally charismatic people in history, let alone pop music. This comparison sucks.

I actually agree more with Snoopy and her David Bowie suggestion. At least David is captivating and has some energy.
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Old Jun 03, 2014, 11:00 AM   #38
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I spent most of last week evaluating Eminem and Kurt Cobain lyrics--

I'm lying I didn't give two sh**s really, until this morning when I remembered that there was an actual new post on this forum and I actually posted something in it. So here I am. I went through some of he Nirvana songs I already owned and I have to say that the band is overall amazing. I still love that album "In Utero" and the "MTV unplugged" one as much as when I first listened to them, as a faux-angry college student rebelling against the highly-exaggerated (and somewhat invented) pain of being confined by my strict, overly conservative upbringing. I should have seen them in concert. WHY didn't I see them in concert?

I think Maia has a point about Kurt's lyrics. I disagree with SNOOPY (dashitall this is a shock to everyone I'm sure) that Kurt should be described as "disturbed" because, let's face it Snoopy, SO many of the best f****ng artists in history have been screwed up in one way or another. This is why they use ART to express their feelings so much of the time.

Here, check out this link I found for you:

http://www.pastemagazine.com/blogs/l...l-illness.html

Each one of them is amazing and should be respected for their incredible contributions to our culture, not besmirched because of something that they can't control. Mental illness is REAL girl. It is not a PR invention, and so you need to accept that not everyone is going around smiling and heads filled with happy thoughts always (unless they're on something pretty powerful and, in that case, it's a temporary thing).

As far as Eminem, I disagree with HIBGIRL (again!) in her post #21 above. By saying that Marshall's lyrics are "nothing out of the ordinary" it gives me the impression you've basically never listened to him, that you're probably not a fan of hip-hop music, and because you may have heard some angry songs of his you assume he's simply just an angry, white boy who raps.

On the contrary, after downloading his first 4 albums and the new one and actually f****ng listening (with the aid of lyrics because aint no one got time for repeated listens) I am convinced this man is a modern-day poet. His song "Rap God" is essentially 6 minutes of freestyle over a beat, where he changes his flow numerous times and not only does he convey incredible grasp of the English language, brilliant wordplay and phenomenal use of metaphors. but he stays on topic and the song has an actual meaning. It's not just rhyming to rhyme. It's- dare I say it- mother*****ng genius. I then decided, since I cared enough to listen to these artists, to make a list of stuff that impressed me and since I made this decision while listening to Eminem these are the songs that reminded me of John and made me realize that Eminem is easily hands-down a GOAT (my niece tells me this is the new, hip way to say greatest of all time so thank me for this info, b*tc***):

1. When I'm gone
2. Beautiful

3.Headlights

4. Mockingbird

5. Like Toy Soldiers

6. Difficult

7. Sing for the Moment

8. Rock Bottom

9. Going Through Changes

10. Til I Collapse

I listened to him and I think I'll listen to more. Same with Nirvana. Just amazing artists who deserve to be acknowledged for that. And I think I'm going to agree with Maia and Apple Scruff that there are plenty of John comparisons. I'm tired now and I'm not returning on this thread for a few days, unless there's some drama. I'll be back for that. Later beetches!
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Old Jun 03, 2014, 12:33 PM   #39
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In addition to Nirvana, John probably would have dug the Meat Puppets. "Oh Me" is a pretty Lennonesque song that would have fit perfectly on POB.
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Old Jun 07, 2014, 07:27 PM   #40
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I am convinced this man is a modern-day poet. His song "Rap God" is essentially 6 minutes of freestyle over a beat, where he changes his flow numerous times and not only does he convey incredible grasp of the English language, brilliant wordplay and phenomenal use of metaphors. but he stays on topic and the song has an actual meaning. It's not just rhyming to rhyme. It's- dare I say it- mother*****ng genius.
He is pretty amazing. Sometimes he blows me away with his talent, but there's an emotional element that I just can't relate to anymore with Em. Maybe I should give his last album a really good listen.

So, with the R&R Hall of Fame and this thread, I have been listening to a lot of Nirvana lately, and I've got to say it makes me damn sad that we have so few (relatively) songs by Kurt. I would have loved to hear how he would have evolved. Anyway, if you missed the induction ceremony (how could you if you have HBO? It's on all day long every damn day!), here it is... and I only post it here so you can skip to about 3:10, when Michael Stipe inducts them. What he says about artists really applies to The Beatles and to John especially. More of the John/Kurt connection, I think.

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