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Old Nov 28, 2001, 08:42 AM   #1
ImaginePeace78
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Default The Beatles and \"Slash\"

I realize that some people write fan fiction, but I wondered what people's opinion's were of the pretty recent genre "slash" (concerning the Beatles). When I first heard of slash, I thought people were talking about slasher (blood and guts) "B" movies. After browsing through fanfiction.net (particularly the Beatles portion), I soon discovered what "slash" meant in a new sense. My question is--Why? Why are people into slash--especially with the Beatles? From what I've read about slash, it can contain homosexual relations with John and Paul (or any of the other Beatles), rape, kidnapping, murder, etc. Why do people want to write about the Beatles in that way--especially something as awful as rape and murder? We all know the Beatles were never like any of the things I mentioned. Why write them in that light? What do you think they'd say, if they saw the kinds of things people were writing about them? Even though this is another type of fiction (and I do understand that the whole "slash" genre is fiction), why go to the extreme? Will people think they're improve the way they write or exploring their ideas for a story? I know that people write fan fiction for seriousness or fun, but, I think, this may have gone too far. In a way, it may be degrading the Beatles or who knows, they may have enjoyed reading this. I or no one else would really know, of course. This is not to flame anyone who is a fan of slash (to each his/her own), however, I was only wondering 'why' people write about the Beatles in that way, since they were real people (unlike Buffy, for instance, who's a character of a TV show). Comments?
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Kristi

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Old Nov 28, 2001, 09:11 AM   #2
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Default Re: The Beatles and \"Slash\"

I guess people just "Run out" of things to write about. Also, I think there is "SHOCK" value to these fictious events. It is like "Science fiction" written about well known people. Nothing to get hung about,It's just not my cup of tea....................

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Old Nov 28, 2001, 09:29 AM   #3
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Default Re: The Beatles and \"Slash\"

I'm a bit surprised by this. I know the origin of slash pertained specifically to Star Trek and Spock/Kirk pairings back in the 60's. The term 'slash' coming from the slash between their names. I think generally it is all in good fun, but I'm uncomfortable with using the Beatles in this regard, because as you said, they are real people. It is one thing to take liberties with fictional characters, but to take real people and write them into sexual situations (whether same-sex or not) seems almost an invasion of privacy. BTW, I'm also disturbed by the existence of Harry Potter slash. Yes, they are fictional, but they are children. Snape/Dumbledore pairings are fair game, I guess, but Harry/Ron and Harry/Draco is just plain sick. Isn't there some kind of law against the sexualization of children, or does that just apply to photographs?

Since I don't write fanfiction myself, I don't really know what motivates anyone to write slash, but it probably is very similar to what motivates fans to write fanfiction in general. I think people like to write about their fantasies and maybe for Beatle slashers their fantasies involve the boys being more than friends. I mean it does add a whole new depth to their relationship, doesn't it?

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Old Nov 28, 2001, 09:59 AM   #4
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Default Re: The Beatles and \"Slash\"

Yeah, now that I think about it, I think 'shock value' has something to do with it. Oh God, that's awful that they have Harry Potter slash, (such sick minds!). There should be a law against writing about children that way....very sickening.
-Kristi

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Old Nov 28, 2001, 12:43 PM   #5
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Default Re: The Beatles and \"Slash\"

This article about fanfic and "slash" appeared a while back. I don't have a link, but I THINK it's from Salon. It's long, but it might answer some questions about why people write slash, even though it doesn't talk about Beatlefic at all -- and I have a problem with their contention that fanfic about "real people" is not as legit as that about fictional characters, because I believe that Beatlefic (or Backstreet Boys fic or N'Sync fic, or whatever) is just as legitimate as Trek Fic...but I digress.

This is long, but worth reading...

*****************
Luke Skywalker Is Gay?
Fan fiction is America's literature of obsession.
By David Plotz

Friday, April 14, 2000, at 10:30 a.m. PT

Have you heard the latest dish from Hollywood? On Friends, Monica and Rachel are both pregnant! Dr. Susan Lewis is returning to ER, and she's going to marry Mark Greene. (You always knew they belonged together.) Speaking of ER, Dr. John Carter has a new love interest too: He's dating Walter Skinner from The X-Files, who has just broken off his three-way affair with Special Agents Fox Mulder and Dana Scully.

Meanwhile, in a galaxy far, far away, Luke Skywalker has gone over to the Dark Side—and I'm not talking about his infatuation with Han Solo, though that's as hot as ever. "Han turned his head, tipped my palm up, pressed his lips to the center of it. … His kiss connected with the core of me."

Sadly, we'll never see Luke and Han smooching on the big screen. Their torrid romance is occurring only in the fevered imagination of one pseudonymous Destina Fortunato, an acolyte of one of the oddest and most delightful subcultures on the Web: fan fiction. In "fanfic," as practitioners call it, devotees of a TV show, movie, or (less often) book write stories about its characters. They chronicle the alternative adventures of Xena, warrior princess; open the X files that Mulder and Scully don't dare touch; and fill in the back story to Star Wars Episode I.

Fanfic, like so much weirdness in American culture, is rooted in the '60s, though it has older antecedents. When Arthur Conan Doyle stopped publishing Sherlock Holmes stories, his readers wrote their own. Star Trek: The Original Series (or "TOS," in fanspeak) kick-started the fanfic vogue in the late '60s. Within a year of the show's debut, Trekkers were scribbling their own tales of Kirk and Spock, binding them in mimeographed zines, and handing them out at conventions. Fanfic communities rewrote Star Wars and TV shows such as Starsky and Hutch.

Fanfic used to be confined to fanatics who attended conventions and mailed their zines to several dozen (or, in rare cases, several hundred) subscribers. That zine industry still exists, but most fanfic has decamped to the Web. The Web has taken fanfic public, massively increasing the number of writers and readers. Today there are fanfic sites devoted to every TV show you have heard of and many you haven't. Star Trek's "fandom"—the show's fans—maintains hundreds of fanfic archives in every possible category: TOS, Deep Space 9, Ensign Chekov, Data, etc. Each archive may contain hundreds of stories. The Star Wars and X-Files fandoms are nearly as prolific. The X-Files fandom even issues annual literary awards—"The Spookys." Dozens of fanfic archives pay homage to Xena: Warrior Princess, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Highlander, and ER. Blake's 7, an old British sci-fi series, enthralls writers. Due South, which concerns a Canadian Mountie, has a fanfic cult. So do The A-Team and Miami Vice.

Most fanfic authors write short stories, but novels, screenplays, poems, and even songs (called "filks") are popular as well. (A "fan film" industry thrives, too: Click here to learn more about it.) The quality of the writing varies. Some fics brim with misspellings, grammatical lapses, and risible dialogue. But many are surprisingly good, with excellent character sketches and vivid descriptions. Fanfic writers tend to be highly educated, and several fanfic writers have graduated to careers as science fiction novelists.

Some fanfics fill in plot holes left by lazy producers: A Spock half-brother appeared out of the blue in a late Star Trek movie. Fanfic writers responded by inventing a credible past for him. Other writers simply deliver extra episodes to junkies: When Millennium was canceled, loyal fans posted a whole new season of episodes. Still others explore alternate universes. What would happen if Luke joined the Dark Side? Fanfics frequently resurrect popular characters whom producers had rudely killed off.

Fanfics often celebrate peripheral characters who don't get the screen time they deserve: Writers have lavished millions of words on Boba Fett, the bounty hunter who cameos in the Star Wars series. Skinner, the minor boss on the X-Files, has won a rabid fanfic audience. "Crossover" fanfics drop characters from one show into another's universe. Mulder and Scully visit Buffy to investigate vampires. Benton Fraser, the Due South Mountie, teams with U.S. Marshal Sam Gerard—Tommy Lee Jones' character in The Fugitive—to hunt Canadian villains. In some fics reviled by veteran authors, fans act out their fantasies—seducing Obi-Wan Kenobi, for example—by inserting themselves into their stories. These stories are called "Mary Sues."

One surprising aspect of fanfic is its indifference to plot. The vast majority of its writers are women, and Deborah Tannenism pervades it. Most stories are much more attuned to emotional dynamics than narrative. MIT professor Henry Jenkins, the leading scholar of fanfic, notes that fans usually choose shows with a pair of closely bonded leads: Kirk and Spock, Mulder and Scully, Xena and Gabrielle, Starsky and Hutch. Fanfic writers pore over the relationship between the pair. One popular subgenre is "hurt-comfort," which explores what happens when one lead gets hurt and the other has to help him. Some X-Files fans write only "MSR" fics, their acronym for "Mulder-Scully Relationship."

The obsession with emotional intensity has spawned "slash," the most flamboyant genre and perhaps the weirdest prose in America today. "Slash" fanfic describes, in vivid detail, homosexual relationships between characters such as Starsky and Hutch or Kirk and Spock. (Click here for a history and discussion of "slash." Definitely click.)

Fanfic writers are not nutters or losers or lowlifes. A slash fanfic writer whose pseudonym is WPAdmirer (for "Walker Percy Admirer") told me that her circle of writers includes a lawyer, a linguist, a computer specialist, an insurance executive, and a mystery novelist. She, like most of the 20 other writers I interviewed, is well-employed. Many have spouses and children.

So why on earth do normal people spend their lives writing fantasies about TV characters? Almost all fanfic writers hide behind pseudonyms. They rightly fear ridicule, because fanfic invites mockery. Though the United States admires sports fans, it treats TV and movie junkies derisively. America's most famous movie fan: John Hinckley. Pop culture fans are pinned by caricature: Spock-eared Trekkers or loon-bird stalkers. Fanfic seems to confirm every stereotype about fans: They are obsessive. They can't separate fantasy from reality. Their lives are so empty that they fixate on banal TV shows. (What kind of loser writes story after story about Quantum Leap or The A-Team?) They don't even have the imagination to make up their own characters.

But this condescension misses the point. In his superb Textual Poachers: Television Fans and Participatory Culture, MIT's Jenkins argues that fanfic represents a flowering of modern folk culture. For thousands of years, we have shared stories about mythical popular heroes, from Prometheus to Paul Bunyan to Brer Rabbit. Each storyteller embellished the tale, inventing characters, adding details, rewriting the ending. In the 20th century, however, folk culture has been privatized. The characters we share today are TV icons and movie heroes. Paul Bunyan has been supplanted by Xena. These characters don't belong to the public. They are literally owned by studios and producers, who run the character's "life" and expect us to accept their decisions gratefully.

Fan fiction rebels against the private folk culture, Jenkins argues. Writers reclaim folk heroes by creating new stories about them. They embellish the myth. Viewed through Jenkins' lens, a fanfic writer keen on Capt. Jean Luc Picard is no different from a 19th-century folksinger who paid tribute to John Henry. Fanfic writers assert control over a pop culture designed to be passively consumed. "I wanted to make the show mine," explains Kat of her Friends fanfics, echoing the battle cry of fan writers. By writing fics about Monica and Chandler, Kat is insisting that they belong to her as much as to NBC. Fan fiction puts the pop back in popular culture.

Writing fanfic, Jenkins argues, is an act of "fascination and frustration." Writers are fascinated by the characters but frustrated at the cavalier way producers treat them. Fanfic is a "way of repairing the damage done to the core mythology by producers who mess up. The fanfic folk culture pulls it back into realignment." When producers make a beloved character disappear or end a love affair that should continue, fanfic restores the mythology. "Even though I love Buffy the Vampire Slayer, there are times when the show doesn't go my way. So I use fanfic to create the outcome I want," says Buffy fanfic writer Carrie Cook. The actor George Clooney has left ER for a movie career, but fanfic writers adore his character, Doug Ross. They also know that Doug and Nurse Carol Hathaway belong together. So they write story after story about the characters' continuing romance. (The Clooney/Ross split highlights the first commandment of fanfic: Thou shalt not write about real people. Click here for why .)

Fanfic also can be a political act, a way to elevate marginalized minority characters. Fanfic writers worship Lt. Uhura, the neglected black woman on the original Star Trek. In fanfic, she has been promoted, given her own starship, and made the mistress of a torrid threesome with Lt. Sulu and Ensign Chekov. ER's producers overlook crippled, irritable Dr. Kerry Weaver. Other characters lead glamorous, romantic lives. She goes home alone. But fic writers have corrected that with stories about her love life.

Fanfic seems odd in part because it defies modern convention about what writers do. In the individualistic United States, the author is supposed to be an untethered brain: Her ideas and characters and plots are her own. By this standard, fan fiction looks like a cop-out. Writers too lazy to invent their own characters rip off plot, dialogue, and ideas from the boob tube.

But fanfic turns writing into a communal art, as folk culture has always done. Writing and reading become collaborative. We share the characters and work together to make them interesting and funny and sexy. Write a short story about your crazy uncle and post it on the Web, and no one will read it. Write a short story about Dr. Who, and hundreds of folks will flock to your site. Fanfic writers meet at conventions ("cons"). Thanks to the Internet, writers communicate constantly on e-mail listservs. They invite e-mail responses and crave feedback. MedianCat, who writes Buffy fanfic, says he has heard from more than 400 people about his stories. Of the two-dozen-odd fanfic writers I e-mailed about their work, only one did not respond. (The Internet is also changing fanfic by opening it to kids. Click here for how the Backstreet Boys became literary heroes.)

Having juiced fanfic, the Internet may now cripple it. Studios own the characters and shows that fanfic borrows, a fact that is never lost on writers. Every fanfic opens with a disclaimer noting Paramount or Fox or whoever's copyright and renouncing any intent to profit from the story. (All fanfic writers are amateurs by necessity.) But since fan activity has migrated to the Web, studios have grown anxious about trademark and copyright protection. (Trademark law requires holders to police their trademarks by preventing unauthorized use.) Sites hosting fanfics also usually have transcripts, audio and video clips, screen captures, and logos. Studios don't like this. Fox recently sent cease-and-desist letters to Buffy sites ordering them to remove show transcripts. Fox also warned Millennium sites to remove logos and clips. Lucasfilm cracked down on audio clips and logos from Star Wars, and Paramount has been similarly protective of Star Trek.

The studios have treated fanfic more gently, so far. No court has ever addressed the legality of fanfic but, unlike transcripts or clips, it could be protected as "fair use." A 1997 article by Rebecca Tushnet in Loyola of Los Angeles Entertainment Law Journal concludes that fanfic constitutes fair use because it is noncommercial—(no writers try to profit from their work)—because it sufficiently transforms the original work, and because it does not damage the market for the original work. (On the contrary, fanfic keeps viewers engaged during the six days a week the X-Files is not on.) Perhaps mindful of their dubious legal standing, studios tend to leave fanfic alone. Lucasfilm has suppressed Skywalker slash on the grounds that it harms the Star Wars image, but it allows PG-rated fanfic. Fox ignored fanfic when it went after the Buffy sites.

But fear is mounting among fans that the studios are getting too pushy. Lucasfilm lit a brushfire last month when it offered fans free pages on its cherished www.starwars.com site. Fans would be allowed to post all their Star Wars hagiography there, including stories, songs, messages to other fans, and essays. But the small print says that Lucasfilm retains all copyright to anything placed on the site. If I were to write a great story about how Anakin Skywalker becomes Darth Vader and post it on my starwars.com fan page, George Lucas would own my idea.

Lucasfilm is flexing this muscle for obvious reasons. It fears a lawsuit by some fan claiming that Lucas stole her plot for his next movie. But fans believe Lucas has gone too far and have launched an online rebellion. Their complaints resonate. They adore Lucas and his movies. But Star Wars is theirs, too. After all, they think about it, write about it, talk about it, and care about it as much as Lucas does. "Legally, it's theirs. But emotionally we feel we have a right to participate in the story," says Elizabeth Durack, a fanfic writer who is leading the starwars.com protest. Lucas jury-rigged Star Wars from a hundred myths that he heisted from Joseph Campbell. Fanfic writers are borrowing it back. They don't want a dime in return. They just want to be left alone to write their own, very modern myths.

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Amateur directors have made at least 100 Star Wars fan films, many of which you can watch on the Web. The Mos Eisley Multiplex links to a dozen of the best, including Troops, a brilliant and hilarious fusion of Star Wars and Cops. It's well worth the hassle of downloading it. Horror movie buffs produced a spate of Blair Witch Project fan films last summer.

The ethos of fan films differs from that of fanfic. Fanfic writers tend to be passionate amateurs: They are uninterested in turning their fanfic into TV writing careers. Young directors, by contrast, often make their fan films to grab attention from the movie industry. A couple of fan film directors, including Troops' Kevin Rubio, have parlayed their tributes into snazzy industry jobs.

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Within a year of the first Star Trek fanfic, "slash" had kinked off on its own. Women fascinated by the friendship between the emotional Kirk and the logical Spock began writing stories that, shall we say, advanced their relationship. The Vulcan "mind-meld" was not the only kind of melding going on.

Fans called the first erotic sketches "Kirk/Spock" or "K/S" stories. Soon the genre was named for the slash between the names. Starsky and Hutch soon found themselves in bed. Luke Skywalker and Han Solo were slashed, so were Luke and Lando Calrissian. Today the most popular couples include Mulder/Skinner, Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan from Star Wars Episode I, and Xena/Gabrielle from Xena: Warrior Princess. (Lesbian slash is somewhat less common than gay slash.) Almost every character on television has been placed in a compromising position. Crockett and Tubbs engage in their own special Miami vice. Hawkeye and Trapper snuggle in their cold M*A*S*H tent when Frank Burns takes a three-day pass to Tokyo. Jar Jar Binks from Episode I can be found pleasuring Darth Maul. Lock up the kids! Click here to witness some of this variety: Scroll to the bottom of the screen for a guide to slash abbreviations: "SS/JL: Sam Seaborn/Josh Lyman (The West Wing)"; "C/P: Chakotay/Tom Paris (Star Trek: Voyager)"; "SA-M/O: Sith Academy's Maul/Obi-Wan (Star Wars: The Phantom Menace)"; etc., etc., etc.

Reading slash for the first time is disorienting. I'm a straight prude who likes to keep his favorite TV characters locked in the television. My brain could hardly process the images—in lubed-up detail—of Hawkeye and Trapper masturbating each other and Obi-Wan Kenobi having anal sex with Qui-Gon. (Pause for a practical question: How do fanfic writers move Spock and Kirk from consulting on the Enterprise's holodeck to rolling around in bed? Click here for an example.)

Slash certainly is intended to feed sexual fantasies. "I find the idea of two men together to be erotic," says WPAdmirer, who writes Carter/Skinner slash. "And I don't know anyone who could look at the body of Mitch Pileggi [who plays Skinner] and not be interested."

But the porn generally isn't the point. Even at its filthiest, slash, too, is guided by Tannen, not Larry Flynt. According to Jenkins and to slash writers, slash is rooted in female fascination with deep male friendships. Slash writers seek to turn men inside out. "Theirs is one of the most intense friendships I have seen on television, and it seems quite plausible to me that the relationship could have a physical component," says Jane St. Clair, who writes Kirk/Spock slash.

Protagonists spend more time talking about their feelings than groping each other. "What could be more exciting than love between two grown men—the hiding, the secret meetings, the confessions of love?" asks Belynda, a slash archiver.

What matters is not the sex, says Chrysothemis, who writes Due South slash, but "the emotional relationship of the two characters." Her slash often mimics romance novels, with sex hinted at but not described. Slash's interest in how characters feel sometimes reaches parodic proportions. In some K/S slash, Kirk and Spock quit their jobs with Starfleet to work on their relationship.

If you missed the link on how slash writers get their characters into bed, click here .

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Writing about real people is taboo among traditional fanfic writers. "Actorfic" violates the basic principle of fanfic, which is that writers are creating a rich, expanded universe around a show or movie. Actorfic merely indulges a fantasy. This is doubly true in slash, where writers risk enraging straight actors. Slash infuriates actors even when it focuses only on fictional characters. According to slash writers, one reason William Shatner so detests Trekkers is that he's disgusted by the slash fanfic written about Kirk. He takes it personally.

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Educated, white, middle-aged women have traditionally dominated fanfic. But the Web is opening the culture up to kids. Their writing usually limps, and they don't share old-timers' interest in shows with pair-bonded leads. But they are wonderfully boisterous. Younger writers have deluged the Web with fanfics about Buffy and Dawson's Creek.

They also irk the traditional fanfic community by writing about real people, especially music idols. Jakob Dylan of the Wallflowers and the young men from 'N Sync are subjects of much fanfic. The most prolific fandom belongs to the Backstreet Boys. BSB fanfic is heavy on first-person "Mary Sue" daydreams—"The Boys saved me after our plane crashed" and the like—but slash also pops up regularly. Stories such as "Backstreet Lust" describe how a Backstreet Boy—usually Nick or Brian, the two pretty ones—seduces a young male fan. Unlike other slash, Backstreet Boys slash tends to be written by males. An Internet skirmish is raging over Backstreet Boys erotica. Some BSB worshippers have organized online opposition to the X-rated fanfics. Their motto is "WWTT," as in, "What Would They [the Boys] Think?"



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Rooftop Sessions - The Finest In Beatles-Related Fiction. November 2001 Issue up now! About.com BEST OF THE NET, April 2001! www.rooftopsessions.com

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Old Nov 28, 2001, 02:18 PM   #6
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Default Re: The Beatles and \"Slash\"

(Gonna reply to several people at once here, bear with me.) Kristi, I think that the article Susan posted (thanks!) is right when it says the slash stories focus on the male-male emotional relationship. I haven't read any that were especially violent; some of them are even tender. However, as a Beatles fanfic author, I do my best to be accurate in my portrayal of the Beatles and their surroundings. I wouldn't feel comfortable writing slash because it's not true to the Beatles' personalities. And McCharlenstar, I don't think slash is like science fiction about the Beatles. Science fiction is a completely different genre. Or did you simply mean slash started in science fiction?

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Old Sep 11, 2002, 05:53 PM   #7
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Default Re: The Beatles and \"Slash\"

I know this is a REALLY old thread, but I just had to comment.

Slash, to me, is like any other genre. A lot of it is absolute. but I have read some that I really like.

Just the other day, I found one on (gasp!) ff.net. I clicked on the link skeptically ("Paul and George? Eww!") As I read it, however, I found myself getting a little steamy... It was an extremely well written piece, not overtly graphic, and actually very tender.


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Old Sep 11, 2002, 06:12 PM   #8
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Default Re: The Beatles and \"Slash\"

The first time I read a piece of "slash" fan fiction about The Beatles (It was a John&Paul, then John& George story--poor little Ringo was completely ignored even here, but I think in this case, he would rejoice) I was horrified. If the author wrote the story to shock, he or she certainly succeeded with me! I wondered if the writer might be a gay man who had the hots for John and was writing him that way because that was as close to sleeping with John that he could possibly get.I don't know; I don't even know if the writer was a man or a woman.
I don't think it's right to write the Beatles that way. To me, it smacks of libel, but I guess there's no law against it.
I avoid reading slash (now that I know what the term means) because it makes me uncomfortable. Unless I miss my guess, I think that it would make MOST Beatles fans uncomfortable.
I suppose the writers of these stories think that the tight, intimate "boy's club" atmosphere which seemed to encompass the four lads from Liverpool makes them a natural subject for this stuff.
I don't know; whatever floats your boat, I suppose. Freedom of the press is basically a good thing.
It's not for me, though. I don't like it at all.

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Old Sep 11, 2002, 06:26 PM   #9
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Default Re: The Beatles and \"Slash\"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By angelgodiva:
The first time I read a piece of "slash" fan fiction about The Beatles (It was a John&Paul, then John& George story--poor little Ringo was completely ignored even here, but I think in this case, he would rejoice) I was horrified. If the author wrote the story to shock, he or she certainly succeeded with me!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know exactly which stories you are talking about. First I read the John/Paul one...to my horror. I figured I read another story (didn't realize they were all slash), and it was the John/George one. What confused me: why would the author use practically the same exact plot and/or descriptions? They were completely alike except for the Paul/George character switch...completely gross stuff. I left the site once I figured they were all disgusting.

-lennon4



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Old Sep 11, 2002, 06:31 PM   #10
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Default Re: The Beatles and \"Slash\"

Slash it not everybody's cuppa...certainly not mine!

I find most of it to be entirely too self-important and angst-ridden, not to mention unrealistic and inconceivable. I don't understand what kind of thrill people get about writing this stuff...and it is always the same...when it involves John/Paul, John's always the aggressor who "tricks" Paul into something...it's nuts.

I guess some people find this stuff plausible -- but for me, it's just silly and not worth my time.

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Old Sep 11, 2002, 06:35 PM   #11
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Default Re: The Beatles and \"Slash\"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By HMVNipper:
...and it is always the same...when it involves John/Paul, John's always the aggressor who "tricks" Paul into something...it's nuts.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Exactly...that pisses me off! Sadly, that's exactly what happed in both of these slashes.

-lennon4


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[This Message Has Been Edited By lennon4 On September 11, 2002 07:35 PM]
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Old Sep 11, 2002, 07:45 PM   #12
Drumhead15
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Default Re: The Beatles and \"Slash\"

A friend of mine wrote a Simon and Garfunkel fic, and before she had me read it, she warned me that it was "a bit slashy". At the time I didn't know what the term "slashy" meant so I just read it. And though it did imply that there may be something going on between them, it was VERY subtle, and it focused on portraying the tender relationship between the two. It never did get graphic or violent. It's really the only slash I've ever read, I don't agree with it what so ever and don't ever plan on reading it.

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Old Sep 11, 2002, 08:07 PM   #13
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Default Re: The Beatles and \"Slash\"

To be honest, the use of the term "slash" may be a way for other readers to try and not deal with something that's going to have to be faced head-on: the emergence of the gay community expressing itself more openly in the fanfic world (and for that matter, the whole emergence of modern gay literature).

I mean, most writers don't really give a special name to a story where the character having sex with someone of the opposite sex happens to occur in the midst of the rest of the plot unfolding. And truthfully, not every slash is building up to "the act;" as pointed out in the article Ye Editor posted (thanks, Dear), in reality the number of so-called slash pieces where the intimate encounter is the main focus of the piece is not any greater than the percentage of stories that have straight couplings. If anything, one could argue that the straight writers seem more hung up on sex than the gay ones, but there's no dismissive term thrown at their stories.

I would be willing to suggest that perhaps we're seeing more attention being paid to slash because as a community we're finally starting to pay more attention to gay writers, writers who like others try and infuse their experiences and dreams into their work. If we've learned anything from the last century, it should be the willingness to take a moment to listen to new voices and not cast them aside.

If it were possible, I'd even propose the abandonment of the term "slash" altogether as a descriptive. As applying the word to a work of fiction risks ghettoization of the piece, it would be unfair to apply this term to a story, a term that in some readers might prejudice them from the work and force them to deny themselves a potentially wondrous story. And as gay writers become more numerous and polished, anything that would force us to pass on their work would be a grave disservice to both the writers themselves and our ability to call ourselves readers.

That's just my two sanctimonious cents...

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Old Sep 11, 2002, 08:31 PM   #14
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Default Re: The Beatles and \"Slash\"

Jim, I don't know for certain if the writers of this sub-genre tend to be gay or straight, or even somewhere in the middle. To be honest, it's not even an issue with me. It wouldn't bother me to read a work by an openly gay writer or a story depicting two same-sex fictional characters "in the act." What bothers me about Beatles slash is that it involves real people who have demonstrated literally hundreds of times their attraction to the opposite sex. It's a little bit like reading a fanfic where modern-day Paul has a steak for dinner--his actions are so out of character that I can't believe in the story.

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Old Sep 11, 2002, 08:52 PM   #15
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Default Re: The Beatles and \"Slash\"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SF4-EVER:
Jim, I don't know for certain if the writers of this sub-genre tend to be gay or straight, or even somewhere in the middle. To be honest, it's not even an issue with me. It wouldn't bother me to read a work by an openly gay writer or a story depicting two same-sex fictional characters "in the act." What bothers me about Beatles slash is that it involves real people who have demonstrated literally hundreds of times their attraction to the opposite sex. It's a little bit like reading a fanfic where modern-day Paul has a steak for dinner--his actions are so out of character that I can't believe in the story.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very well said. That's just how I feel, as well. It's one thing if the characters are actually gay or are fictional, and quite another matter when the characters are real people who are known to be straight.
I am writing a gay story right now for SUSPECT THOUGHTS--but my characters are fictional, so I can have them do whatever I like without worrying that I am having them do anything that would be out of character for them. I would be uncomfortable using, say, John and Paul as the characters in that story.



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Old Sep 11, 2002, 08:53 PM   #16
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Default Re: The Beatles and \"Slash\"

Wow, when I read the beginning post, I had to check twice at the name, I had forgotten completely that I wrote this (the beginning post). For a minute, I thought someone else brought up another slash thread. But, it's interesting to see people still responding even though I wrote it months ago. Still it brings out good discussions!
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Old Sep 12, 2002, 03:40 AM   #17
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Default Re: The Beatles and \"Slash\"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Drumhead15:
A friend of mine wrote a Simon and Garfunkel fic, and before she had me read it, she warned me that it was "a bit slashy". At the time I didn't know what the term "slashy" meant so I just read it. And though it did imply that there may be something going on between them, it was VERY subtle, and it focused on portraying the tender relationship between the two. It never did get graphic or violent. It's really the only slash I've ever read, I don't agree with it what so ever and don't ever plan on reading it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See, now THIS gets me -- probably even more than a Beatleslash...a really good friend of mine grew up with Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel, and is she knew about this, she'd about DIE...

I dunno, it's just not my cuppa tea...I'm not criticizing anyone who likes it, but it's not for me!

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Old Sep 12, 2002, 03:48 AM   #18
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Default Re: The Beatles and \"Slash\"

I agree with Sandra and Angel (sorry, dear) -- and besides, I do think that statistically, writers of slash tend to be straight, middle-aged, white women. I don't object AT ALL to stories with a homosexual theme, but in the case of the Beatles (or S&G, or anyone else who was known for sure to be heterosexual) I just find it implausible.

Now, that said, I know of a story that a friend of mine wrote about a gay man who is attracted to George...there is NO consummation of the "relationship," in fact there's no relationship. However, she did what I believe is a very good job of pointing out that there were (and are) probably a lot of gay men who were attracted to the Beatles for much the same reasons Brian was, and she wanted to illustrate that...but it is an unrequited attraction since Geo is and was definitely hetero.

I have NO problem with a fic about Brian and his lifestyle, or even a story about Brian's possible attraction to John -- even though Brian was a real person, he WAS gay. But I find that I cannot believe in a story in which John gets Paul drunk (or otherwise overpowers him) and then has his way with him, sorry. And even worse, I once read one in which Paul was the aggressor -- and frankly, I can't see John being anyone's "bitch!"

Anyway, I'm not putting down gay-themed stories AT ALL, nor gay writers. But I don't think that Beatleslash really falls into the category of "gay literature" in the true sense.

And those are MY sanctimonious two cents!

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"In writing, the difference between the right word and almost the right word is like the difference between lightning and lightning bugs." - Mark Twain
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Old Sep 12, 2002, 07:27 AM   #19
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Default Re: The Beatles and \"Slash\"

This thread made me digress a little in thought. Would "The Hours and Times" be considered a slash fan fiction? It was a purely speculated film, AND it's implies that John & Brian "hook up" if you know what I mean (they even have a slight kissing session in the tub). Just wondering about your thoughts on this one.

-lennon4

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Old Sep 12, 2002, 07:36 AM   #20
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Default Re: The Beatles and \"Slash\"

I never heard of that film before, but I assume it was made after John's death, because I think it would have royally pissed him off and EVERYONE would've heard about it otherwise, because of the court case.
From what you describe, though, I think it fits the description. I would call it slash.

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