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Old Aug 29, 2005, 05:57 PM   #61
wednesdaymorning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatlebangs1964
3. Sex as part of a story is one thing. When it becomes the focus of the story, then the story was rather shaky to start with if no other elements, e.g. characters, plot or dialog are included. If a story is just about people's intimacy, then it becomes tiresome and tiring.
I agree with you there. It's no secret that the Beatles had sex and lots of it, but when it is constant and in your face, it gets to be too much. Or when it's described in an immature and vulgar way. (Or on the converse in a dramatic and unrealistic way.)

Another thing that turns me off to fan fiction is when things get overly perfect and "sappy." The main-Beatle character is taken and made into something flawless. How can one have a story with a perfect character? One can't go very far. Where is the conflict? The Beatles, believe it or not, are four men. Ordinary men who happen to be famous. Stardom doesn't make them perfect. It also doesn't make them less likely to say something stupid.

I'm restating other people here, but I can't stand it when the Beatles aren't the Beatles. It's true that none of us truley know the Beatles (Well, I don't...), but with "research" a good picture of their personalities can be put together. I hate reading about John being the constant peace-maker and saint. I believe on Rooftop Sessions, this is called a "Martin Luther Lennon" story. (I always thought that was funny.)

I, however am not the "fanfic connoisseur," but I have become recently addicted to the comedy stories. Especially the ones by Lisha Goldberg. Light-hearted fanfics are much more appealing to me than the dramatic and lovey ones. (Though if there is a good one, I will sit there and compulsively read every word.)
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Old Aug 29, 2005, 07:49 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by beatlegirl9977
I agree; I find it really difficult to write George or Ringo and make them believable. I can do it just enough to make them minor characters (I know, it looks terrible, putting them into the background all the time), but it's just a matter of literary license, not to insult them or anything like that. If you identify with a particular Beatle, it's always going to be easier to write about him and be true to his character.
I understand where you're coming from. I think a lot of writers (myself included) have trouble with George and Ringo. But it's one thing to make these two minor characters in the story, quite another to make them the equivalent of literary furniture.

It's just fine to write about one Beatle; after all, we all have our favorites. The story I've been working on is about John, so of course, John is featured a little more prominently than the others. But what really bugs me is when authors who don't know how to write about them (or just don't want to!) simply solve this problem by shuttling them into the scenery. I mean, why bother to include the other Beatles at all if you're only going to refer to them as background narrative ("George waved hi and turned back to the TV") and not give them even one line of dialogue? To me, at least, it screams of lazy writing.

Just my opinion, of course, so take it for what it's worth (probably not all that much! ) It's just that I like all the Beatles and want to see them all represented, even if it's just a clever line or two.
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Old Aug 30, 2005, 08:28 AM   #63
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Okay, I'm jumping in. I think we talked about this on another link. I'm a published author, and I've taught writing, mentored, judged etc. I know writing. Here's the deal. Bottom line. If the story grabs the reader's attention and keeps it, bingo, it's a good story. I have judged national contests for years, sponsored critique groups. I have read a mountain of manuscripts. I have read manuscripts that are polished but BORING. I have read manuscripts that need some work, say, in editing, but the story was excellent. Whether we're writing about the Beatles or a truck driver, the reader has to care about the characters. Almost anything can be overlooked if the story grabs you and keeps moving you to the end. Some think they can write just because they can type. Maybe they donít take the time to learn the craft. Writers must learn the basics of the English language to articulate it. And they need to learn the craft of writing fiction.

When writing about the Beatles (or any subject) research is really important.

On my website, Iíve got a few articles I've written, one is on judging. This particular article was published, and it talks about research.

Quote:
Writers who donít do their homework will regret getting me as a judge. I know a lot of stuff, and so do (probably) your other judges. I can forgive a lot of things while judging, but donít try to sell me an empty box.

You might get a judge who knows all about the horn-rimmed owls your heroine is studying, or the alignment of every planet in the universe. If you try to slip in a piece of Ďvagueí research itís going to glare. If youíve got your heroís ex-wife dying from a muscle disease, youíd better have a diagnosis. Not only are the judges savvy, but so are the editors and readers.
Thereís also an outline on critiquing manuscripts, and in that youíll find the basics of good writing. Fan fiction, romance, mysteries, whatever the genre, it doesnít matter. Itís in the writing.

All that said. I personally havenít ventured into reading fan fiction because I am too emotionally involved with the Beatles. They are too much apart of my entire life (really) for me to imagine anything but what happened.

But I am not against complete fantasy, as long as the writer makes it clear we are in a fantasy or dream.

Nor am I saying I won't change my opinion in time. There is a readership for fan fiction, so if you enjoy writing it, (or reading it) then write!

OH, one more thing. There's an article on writing love scenes, so maybe those who want to know more about that element, want to read it. This article was also published.

A blurb:
Quote:
Sex is an event. If the H/H are dropping in and out of bed at every opportunity without new complications when the sun rises, the story will stand still and youíll bore the reader. Titillating sex wonít cover up rambling away from the storyline.
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Old Aug 30, 2005, 08:48 AM   #64
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Default Wow...

Completely off-topic, but...

Georgie-Girl, I just read an excerpt from your site (Spanish one, I should clarify), and all I have to say is, wow! I'm very impressed. I'll be the first one to tell you that I hate romance novels, but I'd read that one.
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Old Aug 30, 2005, 08:56 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgieGirl
Okay, I'm jumping in. I think we talked about this on another link. I'm a published author, and I've taught writing, mentored, judged etc. I know writing. Here's the deal. Bottom line. If the story grabs the reader's attention and keeps it, bingo, it's a good story. I have judged national contests for years, sponsored critique groups. I have read a mountain of manuscripts. I have read manuscripts that are polished but BORING. I have read manuscripts that need some work, say, in editing, but the story was excellent. Whether we're writing about the Beatles or a truck driver, the reader has to care about the characters. Almost anything can be overlooked if the story grabs you and keeps moving you to the end. Some think they can write just because they can type. Maybe they donít take the time to learn the craft.
You've made a really excellent point here. When I'm reading fan-fiction (or any kind of fiction), I want it to capture my interest within the first few pages and hold it through the entire story. If I'm up to page 3 or 4 and I don't care what's happening, I put the book away or click over to another link. To answer the OP's question again, I guess the number one thing that'll make me stop reading a piece of fanfic is a boring story.
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Old Aug 30, 2005, 01:16 PM   #66
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I just read an excerpt from your site (Spanish one, I should clarify),

FYI: My site isn't Spanish. One of my books is about a matador.
No espaŮol.

Sorry you hate romance novels. Some fanfiction reads like romance novels.


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Old Aug 30, 2005, 01:26 PM   #67
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That's what I meant, the story about the Spanish Bullfighter. Sorry, maybe I should have made that a little clearer...bad choice of words. And I'm glad it's not in Spanish, cause if it were, I couldn't read one word of it!

Now I'm not against romance novels in general. It's just that when I'm reading, I prefer the romance to be more of a subplot than a plot. Only my personal preference, nothing more. But it's been a long time since I've read one all the way through; maybe I'll have to give it another try.

Oh, and I'm not really a big fan of fanfics where the ONLY plot is the romance. There should really be something else going on to catch my interest.
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Old Aug 30, 2005, 01:34 PM   #68
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You guys are giving me story ideas... Thanks. My muse has been dead in the water for a long time.
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Old Sep 01, 2005, 01:37 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnarkyKat
*puts a little polish on this old topic*

You know what really makes me stop reading a fanfic? Mediocrity.

I have read some terrible fanfiction -- just the straight-up worst stories ever put to paper in any fandom ever -- but I read them all the way through because they were interesting in a "what the hell is this" kind of way. (Plus, it gives me fodder to scare my friends. Muahahaha.) But if a story is just meh, then I won't waste my time on reading it all the way through.

Mary Sues have been touched upon in this thread, but what I really cannot stand are the insidious Beatle Sues. Especially when Paul is somehow transformed into a weepy fourteen-year-old girl. Yeesh. Come on, dude. Give me, your reader, some credit here, mmkay? I know what the Beatles were like, and none of them acted like fourteen-year-old girls. Honestly.
Beatle-Sues, I like that term! I guess you could also use it for when an author portrays a Beatle (or two) as perfect in the Mary Sue vein. Thats annoying - the faultless, but then also boring, unrealistic and flat Beatle.
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Old Sep 01, 2005, 01:39 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by DizzymissLizzy909
Good point... I find especially Ringo is left out in a lot of stories. At least there's a number about George out there and he gets some attention. But no one seems to be able to write anything decent about poor Ringo. I often read about Ringo "going out for a smoke" or "going out with a girl" or whatever, just to get him out of the scene so the author doesn't have to think up dialogue for him. I doubt that as a Beatle, he would ever have spent so much time away from the group, or be as quiet as many authors make him seem!
Yeah Ringo, and (less so currently) George always end up marginalised. Then again, there are a lot of stories/writers/fans who seem to consider there were only two Beatles, John and Paul.
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Old Sep 01, 2005, 01:42 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Loony_leo
Oh god do I agree!!!! And I highly doubt that Mary would be able to have sex with beatle-x after talking about her horrible ordeal yet the authors have them do it anyways!!



Yeah but writing a Beatle Fanfic is far easier said than done Beatle Bangs!

A friend of mine got into the beatle this year because I not too subtlely "accidently" slipped a few beatles songs onto a cd I was burning for her. It didn't take long for her to see A hard Days Night and from there wanted to write her own Beatles humor fanfics.

She wrote one about Ringo writing a letter to Santa, which John read out loud in a mocking manner to the others, and saying "jeeze Ring you don't really still believe in Santa do you?" To which Ringo says " waht do you mean believe he's real!!" Well to make a long story short Ringo goes on an adventure to find Santa and prove to the others that he is real.

I tried to say as little to her about that as possible with fear of insulting her.
Sounds like a great plot to me! lol. Can I read it?
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Old Sep 01, 2005, 04:48 AM   #72
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Yeah, it's such a great plot that Angel Godiva did it first and it's published in Rooftop Sessions... And it's been there, first in an issue and then in the archive, since 2002.

http://www.rooftopsessions.com/VeryBeatlesXmas.html

I could use this opportunity to go on a huge rant about plagiarism, but I won't, I'll just direct people to an article about the subject in the Rooftop Sessions "Write Thinking" Archive: http://www.rooftopsessions.com/Lawsuit.htm

There's a reason I have the following warning on every main section page of my website:

PLAGIARISM IS STEALING!
All acts of intellectual property theft will be prosecuted
to the full extent of copyright law --
so don't even THINK about trying it!

Sorry, but this is one of my BIGGEST pet peeves...you would be surprised (or maybe you wouldn't) about how many people take inspiration from other authors (whether mainstream or fanfic) and steal their ideas, plots and/or dialogue and try to pass it off as their own. One of the things that makes me particularly incredulous is when someone sends me a SUBMISSION for Rooftop that is clearly a ripoff of one or more stories I've ALREADY PUBLISHED!! I got one a couple of months ago that was a bad ripoff of stories by Cheryl Mortensen and Lisha Goldberg, complete with lifted dialogue -- does this person who submitted it really think that I would not remember stories I have published, and that I wouldn't recognize stealing when I saw it? Gimme a break -- if your story is too close to someone else's in ANY CAPACITY, you'd better think again before hitting that send button!

(Okay, so I DID go on a rant -- but ooh, does this just CHEESE ME OFF!! )
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Old Sep 01, 2005, 08:58 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by HMVNipper
Yeah, it's such a great plot that Angel Godiva did it first and it's published in Rooftop Sessions... And it's been there, first in an issue and then in the archive, since 2002.

http://www.rooftopsessions.com/VeryBeatlesXmas.html

I could use this opportunity to go on a huge rant about plagiarism, but I won't, I'll just direct people to an article about the subject in the Rooftop Sessions "Write Thinking" Archive: http://www.rooftopsessions.com/Lawsuit.htm

There's a reason I have the following warning on every main section page of my website:

PLAGIARISM IS STEALING!
All acts of intellectual property theft will be prosecuted
to the full extent of copyright law --
so don't even THINK about trying it!

Sorry, but this is one of my BIGGEST pet peeves...you would be surprised (or maybe you wouldn't) about how many people take inspiration from other authors (whether mainstream or fanfic) and steal their ideas, plots and/or dialogue and try to pass it off as their own. One of the things that makes me particularly incredulous is when someone sends me a SUBMISSION for Rooftop that is clearly a ripoff of one or more stories I've ALREADY PUBLISHED!! I got one a couple of months ago that was a bad ripoff of stories by Cheryl Mortensen and Lisha Goldberg, complete with lifted dialogue -- does this person who submitted it really think that I would not remember stories I have published, and that I wouldn't recognize stealing when I saw it? Gimme a break -- if your story is too close to someone else's in ANY CAPACITY, you'd better think again before hitting that send button!

(Okay, so I DID go on a rant -- but ooh, does this just CHEESE ME OFF!! )
Opps. Oh dear, oh dear. It did cross my mind when I read that earlier post that it sounded familular, but I didn't realise it was a straight rip off.

Well said though, Susan. Plagurism is wrong, and really I don't see the point of going to so much trouble to steal a story when you could put that effort into coming up with an original one of your own - far more satisfying in the end.

I guess we've all read things that you think, gee, I wish I had written that, but the temptation is too much for some people.
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Old Sep 01, 2005, 04:02 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss O'Dell
Beatle-Sues, I like that term! I guess you could also use it for when an author portrays a Beatle (or two) as perfect in the Mary Sue vein. Thats annoying - the faultless, but then also boring, unrealistic and flat Beatle.
That's why Beatle-Sue, when abbrievated is aptly B.S.
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Old Sep 01, 2005, 10:49 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Miss O'Dell
Beatle-Sues, I like that term! I guess you could also use it for when an author portrays a Beatle (or two) as perfect in the Mary Sue vein. Thats annoying - the faultless, but then also boring, unrealistic and flat Beatle.
Oh man, do I agree!

Or, along those same lines, Beatles who are somewhat realistic, but so one-note that they start looking more like caricatures than the real thing. I've read a few stories (mostly Paul romances) where John does nothing but complain and insult everyone all the time. Sure, we know he did those things...but not ALL the time. There's a hell of a lot more to his personality than that!
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Old Sep 01, 2005, 11:03 PM   #76
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That's why Beatle-Sue, when abbrievated is aptly B.S.
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Old Sep 02, 2005, 09:55 AM   #77
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B.S. eh? I LOVE IT!
Maybe we should assign that acronym to pseudo-writers too!- (stories that are blatant rip-offs of their talented sources.) As a published author I don't think I need to express my feelings on the subject of plagiarism- pretty obvious, eh?
Besides it's been quite adeptly stated what a low-life, slimey act it is... Kudos Nipper!
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Old Sep 02, 2005, 05:45 PM   #78
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Dr. D. & Susan,

Amen, Sisters!

Bad Stories

Bad Spelling

Bad Sentences

Bad Stuff

Badly Structured

Boring Stories

In the case of plagiarism:

Bad Stealing (stories)

Yeah, B.S. is a rather all purpose abbreviation.
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Old Sep 02, 2005, 10:24 PM   #79
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I used to receive about ten manuscripts (novels) at a pop when I was judging. At least two would be identical plot lines. Itís not unusual to read similar stories that are not plagiarism. Listen, it's all been thought of and all written. It's how it's written. Unless it's lifted word for word (and I won't mention the romance writer who became famous for that), it might very well be just coincidental. One time I had to read five manuscripts and three one of them had a heroine named Jennifer!

I've talked to editors who have too many stories about, "X," so they'll pass on your "X."

Writers want to write their own stories. All writers are inspired by others and I often read authors who sound similar to others.

I would think that people writing fan fiction are writing very similar stories. How many situations can you put the fab four, especially if you donít know the abcís of plotting?

Do you know how hard it is to write original romance? Iíve read the same stories over and over and over again. Same plot. Same hero. Same heroine. Itís not plagiarism, itís just writing within the confines of a genre.

I'm not entirely clear who these writers are that send stories they've lifted from other writers. What kind of experience do they have? When they submit work do they include a bio?

Writers who consider themselves professional, don't steal other's work. They learn the craft. Writing is an art and artists want to create their own masterpieces.
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Old Sep 03, 2005, 02:57 AM   #80
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Very interesting point GG.....I have to agree with you there. I have read alot of fanfic that seems like the same story over and over. Even then, if the writing is good and captures my interest, I enjoy the stories. I also want to add that there are many people that write very unique stories and well.
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