BeatleLinks LogoNav Panel New Sites Cool Sites Top Rated Fab Forum Add A Site Link To Us Revolution Radio New Products



Go Back   BeatleLinks Fab Forum > Beatles Forums > I Read The News Today


Closed Thread

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old Sep 12, 2007, 05:37 PM   #81
PepperlandFrog
Banned
 
PepperlandFrog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 25, 2007
Location: hikaru no go
Posts: 967
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmac
If a God does exist, what evidence could you realistically expect these believers to produce as proof? Is it incumbent upon Christians to prove the existence of God to non-believers?
Good point, when viewed that way it is a coin toss either way. I ask for believers to cough up proof because they have a bad habit of forcing their beliefs on others, like the teen Xtian crusaders in the article.

Quote:
As for the rest of the article, the crusade against pop culture isn't entirely without merit, I am sure that each of us can quickly name a handful of popular music acts that spread messages of hate, violence, and anarchy. The Beatles should be the least of their worries.
I agree. To point the finger of blame at The Beatles seems rather dubious and obnoxious.

Quote:
What I don't understand are people that blame their own dysfunctional actions on the music they listen to, video games they play, and movies they watch. Why is it that todays youth can not differentiate between acceptable and unacceptable social behavior?
Again i agree, and especially with the assessment of the dysfunctional actions of the anti-social youth of todays world.

Quote:
There is a bigger problem at play here: absentee parenting, powerless educators, and news bias. From an early age, either through family or the schools they attend, today's youth can not be allowed to escape the responsibilities for their actions. It is not OK for society to continue to support the theory that their actions are a product of the edgy media entertainment they consume. Every non-mentally ill human understands the difference between right and wrong, and no media, no matter the content, should inhibit one's ability to differentiate between them.
Again valid points that strike closer to the truth, than just carelessly blaming pop culture for a multitude of social ills.

Last edited by PepperlandFrog : Sep 12, 2007 at 05:38 PM.
PepperlandFrog is offline  
Old Sep 12, 2007, 07:34 PM   #82
seasidewomen
Little Child
 
seasidewomen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 06, 2003
Location: Cleveland, England
Posts: 54
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari's Chick View Post
If we were to think of God as lying to deceive, I can see how you'd feel as you do. But if we instead say God is playful by nature, and that He could conceivably be playing in dualistic terms, trying to stretch our minds above the limited concepts of duality.... what say you to that idea?

Mmmm, Rumi is awesome, but any mystic will do. :)

Would the mystic who arrives at Truth via another route than Christ be less or even invalid/deluded simply because they have not accepted Christ as Savior?

Thanks for the Blessings! :) Blessings to you too.

Well, God isn't just truthful--He is the ultimate truth. It would be against the meaning and nature of who God is for him to lie in anyway, no matter what "motive" you placed on it. So, no, even a lying God who is playfully decieving is not even in the realm of possibility, philosophically speaking.

No mystic can arrive at the entirety of Truth because the Ultimate Truth is God and God is infinite. Therefore, Truth is infinite and therefore cannot be grasped by the finite mind of any man, mystic or note. Since no mystic can have the fullness of truth, then he could come to some parts of Truth, or individual truths. Anyone who believes in God is a kind of mystic who has reached a truth--that being that God exists. However, at mystic could not proclaim any truth that contradicts Christ and that proclamation be true (in my opinion because I believe in the faith of the Catholic Church, which I do not believe in blindly, p.s.) Because Christ is God and God is Truth, a mystic could not proclaim all of Truth without it being about Christ. So...in a way, a mystic can proclaim truth without it being accepting Christ, but only to an extent. If that makes sense to you.

By the way, I thought the video you posted was awesome. That's been one of my favorite songs for a long time.

Also, I'm sorry it took a bit to respond. Yesterday was my birthday, and I've been really busy doing things.

Thank you for not yelling at me while discussing. I love discussing with people who actually discuss--it is a relief to talk to you. God bless!
__________________
It's him, Dad. He got me watch. 10 year old paul.
seasidewomen is offline  
Old Sep 12, 2007, 07:57 PM   #83
Hari's Chick
Moderator
 
Hari's Chick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 11, 2002
Posts: 13,049


Default

Happy Birthday~ you sure know your P's & Q's of Catholicism! That's the faith I was raised in and I have a lot of respect for the mystical side of their tradition.

Weird Al is funny! Have you seen his spoof of Bob's Subterranean Homesick Blues? Hysterical.

I have to reread all this when I am not so tired... but off the top, you kind of frame things again in dualistic terms (lying/truth). What about the notion 'beyind dualism'. Dualism exists within creation, but God being the Source is beyond manifest creation... beyond duality, as I see things anyway. (Of course He can manifest in any form chosen.)

Do you believe God exists within the limitations of duality? Is that not imposing a confining nature onto God?

Now that you mention Catholicism, I must ask your opinion of Matthew Fox, one of my favorite Catholics... well, former Catholics.

Probably more thoughts later. :)
__________________
Hari's Chick is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2007, 09:53 AM   #84
seasidewomen
Little Child
 
seasidewomen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 06, 2003
Location: Cleveland, England
Posts: 54
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari's Chick View Post
Happy Birthday~ you sure know your P's & Q's of Catholicism! That's the faith I was raised in and I have a lot of respect for the mystical side of their tradition.

Weird Al is funny! Have you seen his spoof of Bob's Subterranean Homesick Blues? Hysterical.

I have to reread all this when I am not so tired... but off the top, you kind of frame things again in dualistic terms (lying/truth). What about the notion 'beyind dualism'. Dualism exists within creation, but God being the Source is beyond manifest creation... beyond duality, as I see things anyway. (Of course He can manifest in any form chosen.)

Do you believe God exists within the limitations of duality? Is that not imposing a confining nature onto God?

Now that you mention Catholicism, I must ask your opinion of Matthew Fox, one of my favorite Catholics... well, former Catholics.

Probably more thoughts later. :)
Thank you--I really take my faith seriously. As I think I told kmac, I am at college studying Theology and a major called "Humanities and Catholic Culture" which is studying the history of western thought from the time of Plato and basically what the Church had to do with it, what the Church teaches about it, and that kind of thing. It is a great program and my school is very reliable for teaching the truth about what the Church says.

About duality, I think our view of good and evil are different. When God created everything, He saw that it was good. God made all things good because He is the ultimate Good. Evil is not a separate force that fights against God and He is restricted to fighting for the good side. God is good--evil is only the lack of God in other words the lack of good. Yes, there is a good and an evil, but I think it is in different terms than how you see "dualism". It is not restricting God to say that He does not do evil. The meaning of good--in other words, where we get the idea of "goodness"--is that it is of God. Evil is the lack of God--is not of God. Evil only has meaning in it's separateness from God. I haven't ever had to explain this point before, so if my terms are clumsy, let me know and I'll try to rephrase what I am saying for you...lol

Matthew Fox...I don't think I know Matthew Fox. However, I just read a short biography of him on Wiki. Even from the short amount that I read, he dissents from the Church's teaching--teachings which I can support with reason, not just that I blindly follow--and therefore is not accurate in his conclusions (such as the combination of the Holy Mass with Indian ritual ceremonies). I would have to read what he has actually written to say anymore than that.

I do have to say, however, that I love Cardinal Ratzinger! I could very easily have put him as my hero in the thread I started. (For those who don't know, Cardinal Ratzinger is the now Pope Benedict XVI). This relates because Cardinal Ratzinger who declared Matthew Fox unfit to teach Catholic theology. Anyway...with that said...I think that's all.

I am watching that weird al right now...Hahahaha that's awesome! Good job weird al! hahaha...sweetness

Sam
__________________
It's him, Dad. He got me watch. 10 year old paul.
seasidewomen is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2007, 11:52 AM   #85
Legs
Sun King
 
Legs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 29, 2001
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 10,562



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by seasidewomen View Post
About duality, I think our view of good and evil are different. When God created everything, He saw that it was good. God made all things good because He is the ultimate Good. Evil is not a separate force that fights against God and He is restricted to fighting for the good side. God is good--evil is only the lack of God in other words the lack of good. Yes, there is a good and an evil, but I think it is in different terms than how you see "dualism". It is not restricting God to say that He does not do evil. The meaning of good--in other words, where we get the idea of "goodness"--is that it is of God. Evil is the lack of God--is not of God. Evil only has meaning in it's separateness from God
I am afraid you got to explain this a bit better, cause I am not sure what you mean. As you have written it down, and the way I see it I don't agree. In the name of God lots of evil has been done, by people who were cristian and claimed to believe in God. A lot of good have been done by people who don't believe in God, since these people are without God, you claim they lacking good?

Another way to see it is. Yes in the name of God and christianity lots of evil things have happened. But that was not God's wish, and in fact while those people claim to believe in God they are in fact lacking God aka Good.
Legs is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2007, 11:53 AM   #86
Legs
Sun King
 
Legs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 29, 2001
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 10,562



Default

It's maybe to late by now, but since this topic is now far removed from its original intend, which had something vaguely to do with the Beatles, shouldn't this now be moved to another forum like "Here there and Everywhere"?
Legs is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2007, 12:06 PM   #87
PepperlandFrog
Banned
 
PepperlandFrog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 25, 2007
Location: hikaru no go
Posts: 967
Default

Quote:
Well, God isn't just truthful--He is the ultimate truth. It would be against the meaning and nature of who God is for him to lie in anyway, no matter what "motive" you placed on it. So, no, even a lying God who is playfully decieving is not even in the realm of possibility, philosophically speaking.
Well to be honest, a hastily conjured up divine entity that can only knock over a set dominoes, instead of say the force of gravity, isn't in the realm of possibility either. I would also like to see you explain this ultimate truth thing a little more coherently, instead of just making casual references to this type of absurd divination.

Last edited by PepperlandFrog : Sep 13, 2007 at 12:17 PM.
PepperlandFrog is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2007, 12:18 PM   #88
Rellevart
Moderator
 
Rellevart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 15, 2000
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 13,764


Send a message via MSN to Rellevart
Default

I don't think it's possible for humans to definitively "prove" that there is a God and I also don't think it's possible to "prove" that there isn't (because, come on, if it were, wouldn't somebody have done so already?), so all arguments based on the existence or non-existence of God are doomed to be futile and unproductive. But if the internet isn't the place for futile and unproductive arguments, I don't know where is.
__________________
I go back so far, I'm in front of me...
Rellevart is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2007, 12:21 PM   #89
sourmilkpinky
Sun King
 
sourmilkpinky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 30, 2003
Location: colorado
Posts: 23,459

Default

It is also very difficult for a productive discussion when posts get completely changed....and blindly repeated.
sourmilkpinky is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2007, 12:38 PM   #90
PepperlandFrog
Banned
 
PepperlandFrog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 25, 2007
Location: hikaru no go
Posts: 967
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rellevart
I don't think it's possible for humans to definitively "prove" that there is a God and I also don't think it's possible to "prove" that there isn't (because, come on, if it were, wouldn't somebody have done so already?), so all arguments based on the existence or non-existence of God are doomed to be futile and unproductive. But if the internet isn't the place for futile and unproductive arguments, I don't know where is.
Good post Rellevart, this is exactly what these teen Xtian crusaders don't seem to understand. Plus the willful distortions of what it means to be Xtian just left a very bad impression, i found it distasteful.
PepperlandFrog is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2007, 12:55 PM   #91
seasidewomen
Little Child
 
seasidewomen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 06, 2003
Location: Cleveland, England
Posts: 54
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legs View Post
I am afraid you got to explain this a bit better, cause I am not sure what you mean. As you have written it down, and the way I see it I don't agree. In the name of God lots of evil has been done, by people who were cristian and claimed to believe in God. A lot of good have been done by people who don't believe in God, since these people are without God, you claim they lacking good?

Another way to see it is. Yes in the name of God and christianity lots of evil things have happened. But that was not God's wish, and in fact while those people claim to believe in God they are in fact lacking God aka Good.
Good points, most assuredly, and I'm glad you brought them up. I will try to clarify what I mean as best as I can. This is a difficult question to answer because there are a lot of "ifs" and different circumstances that can effect the outcome. I will do my best to be concise...though, it will be difficult because there are a lot of foundational statements to be made.

The act of doing something evil is always evil. To murder the innocent is always evil. However, in order for the person who committed the evil act to be evil themselves their personal act must fulfill 3 requirements.

1. The act must consist of grave matter (as we are talking about evil, our circumstance will always involve this).
2. The act must be done with knowledge of the gravity of the evil committed.
3. The act must be done freely, that is, with deliberate consent.

If any one of these things is not fulfilled, the person who committed the evil act is not necessarily evil.

For instance, a man could do serious physical harm to someone. The act consists of grave matter because he hurt another person. However, it could be that either or both of the second and third requirements are not fulfilled. He could know that what he was doing was wrong, but not fully consent to it (in the case of what the law allows as brief insanity due to extenuating circumstances). Or, he could freely be doing the act but not know that it is wrong. With more ambiguous circumstances where the grave matter is less clear, it is not uncommon for man to do something that is evil without knowing it is evil.

Therefore, by this logic, although every evil done in the name of God or religion, the people who committed the act may or may not be culpable for doing such evil. In the case that he does an evil knowingly and freely, then it is true that he is not of God or goodness. However, we cannot forget that any man can repent and be forgiven (that is restored to God) and therefore we cannot say that any man in history is evil, because he may have repented. We can say he did evil things, but we can't judge the evilness of his soul.

Just as a man can do evil things without he being evil, a man can do good things without being good. It is possible to do something that is objectively good, like feeding the poor, but if it is done with evil intentions--to decieve people to believe that you care about the poor when you don't--then the person can still be evil while doing something objectively good.

Similarly, a man that does not believe in God can do good and be good. I know many atheists who do not believe in God because of extenuating circumstances that make it so that they have not been shown or cannot mentally except God at that time. Many atheists do not see the reason in believing in God, but are honestly seeking the truth. In such cases, these men can still be good men and do good things, even though they don't know that the good that they love and the good that they do come from God.

Within my analysis of all of this, I also see a difference in gravity of an evil act. To knowingly and freely slaughter thousands of people is more grave than to be fight and hurt someone knowingly and freely. Since evil can have different levels of evil, in this way, then that is also to say that man can lack God on different levels. The man who hurt one person is less evil, so to speak, as the man who slaughtered many.

With all of this, in certain circumstances, an man who does not believe in God can be a good man while someone who does believe in God but does evil things can be an evil man. However, this is not black and white. Every Christian who has done bad things (which is all of us) is not necessarily more evil or more good than any one who does not believe in any God or the Christian God.

Does that clarify to you what I believe?

I am sorry it is so long...I tried to be more concise than that, but there was too many ifs and buts to take into account...lol
__________________
It's him, Dad. He got me watch. 10 year old paul.
seasidewomen is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2007, 01:00 PM   #92
seasidewomen
Little Child
 
seasidewomen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 06, 2003
Location: Cleveland, England
Posts: 54
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rellevart View Post
I don't think it's possible for humans to definitively "prove" that there is a God and I also don't think it's possible to "prove" that there isn't (because, come on, if it were, wouldn't somebody have done so already?), so all arguments based on the existence or non-existence of God are doomed to be futile and unproductive. But if the internet isn't the place for futile and unproductive arguments, I don't know where is.
why do you think that it can not be proven? If I may ask just to see where you are coming from.

Have you ever read Thomas Aquinas' five proofs of God's existence? I believe it is in his Summa Theologica, which is very large, but it is not hard to find those specific arguments, which are a great read if you are interested in philosophy.
__________________
It's him, Dad. He got me watch. 10 year old paul.
seasidewomen is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2007, 01:02 PM   #93
Rellevart
Moderator
 
Rellevart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 15, 2000
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 13,764


Send a message via MSN to Rellevart
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PepperlandFrog View Post
Good post Rellevart, this is exactly what these teen Xtian crusaders don't seem to understand. Plus the willful distortions of what it means to be Xtian just left a very bad impression, i found it distasteful.
Uh, I think you may be reading in things that I didn't mean at all.
__________________
I go back so far, I'm in front of me...
Rellevart is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2007, 01:04 PM   #94
Rellevart
Moderator
 
Rellevart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 15, 2000
Location: Chicago, IL USA
Posts: 13,764


Send a message via MSN to Rellevart
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by seasidewomen View Post
Have you ever read Thomas Aquinas' five proofs of God's existence?
I have not. I'm very intelligent when it comes to things like math, language, memorization, but I'm a complete idiot when it comes to philosophy. Frankly, I haven't understood a word that anybody's said for pages on this topic, I just see certain key words that make me realize people are arguing. LOL
__________________
I go back so far, I'm in front of me...
Rellevart is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2007, 01:10 PM   #95
seasidewomen
Little Child
 
seasidewomen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 06, 2003
Location: Cleveland, England
Posts: 54
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rellevart View Post
I have not. I'm very intelligent when it comes to things like math, language, memorization, but I'm a complete idiot when it comes to philosophy. Frankly, I haven't understood a word that anybody's said for pages on this topic, I just see certain key words that make me realize people are arguing. LOL
haha--not everyone is arguing--there is some discussion too ;)

The key, I think, to proving that God exists lies in philosophy and the nature of man. Which is why this whole discussion is great practice for my Philosophy of the Human Person class. lol
__________________
It's him, Dad. He got me watch. 10 year old paul.
seasidewomen is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2007, 01:13 PM   #96
Georgie Girl
Sun King
 
Georgie Girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 31, 2005
Location: Sinkhole, Texas
Posts: 17,132

Default

Sam, are you majoring in philosophy?
__________________

The west is
the best.
Georgie Girl is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2007, 01:40 PM   #97
Legs
Sun King
 
Legs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 29, 2001
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 10,562



Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rellevart View Post
Frankly, I haven't understood a word that anybody's said for pages on this topic, I just see certain key words that make me realize people are arguing. LOL
You're not the only one. But I try the best I can to make something out of this discusion.
Legs is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2007, 01:44 PM   #98
sourmilkpinky
Sun King
 
sourmilkpinky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 30, 2003
Location: colorado
Posts: 23,459

Default

She had to run off....but here is the answer GG ;)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgie Girl View Post
Sam, are you majoring in philosophy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by seasidewomen View Post
Thank you--I really take my faith seriously. As I think I told kmac, I am at college studying Theology and a major called "Humanities and Catholic Culture" which is studying the history of western thought from the time of Plato and basically what the Church had to do with it, what the Church teaches about it, and that kind of thing. It is a great program and my school is very reliable for teaching the truth about what the Church says.

Sam
sourmilkpinky is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2007, 01:45 PM   #99
Georgie Girl
Sun King
 
Georgie Girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 31, 2005
Location: Sinkhole, Texas
Posts: 17,132

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sourmilkpinky View Post
She had to run off....but here is the answer GG ;)
Thanks, Pinky, laid my reading glasses down again.
__________________

The west is
the best.
Georgie Girl is offline  
Old Sep 13, 2007, 01:47 PM   #100
sourmilkpinky
Sun King
 
sourmilkpinky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 30, 2003
Location: colorado
Posts: 23,459

Default

LOL...well the answer was in one of those spin you around posts :) Besides...I always forget the exact wording of her second major ;)
sourmilkpinky is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
200 GREATEST POP CULTURE ICONS beatlz Abbey Road 2 Aug 16, 2003 12:09 AM
Check out this article... it attacks the Beatles! jelly And Your Bird Can Sing 4 Oct 17, 2002 10:30 PM
How to talk to your teen about the Beatles HeyBeatle Paperback Writer 50 Aug 14, 2002 02:16 PM


Advertisements

All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Site Features
Search Links

  Advanced Search
Category Jump



BeatleMail

FREE E-MAIL
@ BEATLEMAIL.COM


Username


Password




New User Sign-Up!
Lost Password?
Beatles History




Donate
The costs of running our database and discussion forum are steadily rising. Any help we receive is greatly appreciated. Click HERE for more information about donating to BeatleLinks.
Extras
» Chat Room
» Current News
» Monthly Contest
» Interviews Database
» Random Site
» Banner Exchange
» F.A.Q.
» Advertise
» Credits
» Legal
» Contact Us
Copyright © 2000-2019 BeatleLinks
All Rights Reserved