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Old Jul 04, 2012, 11:42 AM   #1
Apple Scruff
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Wink The UNTOUCHABLE SUBJECTS thread

Yikes. Ok...bare with me here.

I decided to make this thread because so many of us on Menlove are very expressive in our opinions and there are always so many controversial things to discuss in the life of John Lennon. I know that some people will chime in with the 'beating a dead horse here, Apple?' or 'why not let it go?'

But honestly, being that this is a public forum, I think those matters of John's life ARE open gambit. As long as they aren't extremely disrespectful or cruel, or no one is that way to one another on here, I really feel this thread could be interesting. I'm not saying it will become the greatness that This thread was, but a girl can try...

So anyways, the premise of this thread is to share those controversial parts of John's life, the ones that some people may be offended by or try to avoid because they are so controversial, and share your opinions. And if there is something really 'out there' that you feel about John, share it! It doesn't have to be a long-winded post, but I would love to know some of your feelings.

I will start with my own little theory about John and Yoko's marriage...

I have always felt that John and Yoko had a very unique and beautiful union, but it was certainly unconventional. I think John really didn't have a huge issue with relinquishing some of his control on certain things to Yoko. It helped her feel powerful, it made things easier for him, and he was someone who needed certain boundaries.

For example, let's make it simple. Regarding the matter of John spending much of the latter part of his last year with his son or sailing while Yoko took care of business...as far as I'm concerned, nothing about that sounds weird or 'fishy' to me. It sounds like a modern relationship where one of the partners is keeping things balanced at home/work and the other is taking care of the kid or him/herself in a way that will help the union. Yes, I think John and Yoko had, like every couple in existence, their share of problems. But I do not think that Yoko's need for independence and her own identity was that big of a matter for John. I think he was far more understanding and easy about it then many of his fans perceive.

I also think he thrived from having some limits placed on him. He knew he was "uncontrollable," and he also knew that Yoko's intentions were really for his own good. Watching his health. Avoiding friends that encouraged him towards excessively destructive behavior, etc.

I just don't view the J&Y union as her being the big bad wolf pushing the innocent little lamb closer to the fire.

If anything, I think she was trying to keep him as sane and as far away from that fire as she could. My opinion.
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Old Jul 04, 2012, 12:41 PM   #2
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hey there scruff i don't know if this belongs here but i'd like to make a statement about John and Yoko's relationship and how
in influences my new found love. before i found my love i never understood how deepy in love they were. i fully understand that now.

some believe that he needed he i say the needed each other.
like how Aaron and i need each other.

for now thats all i have to say *exits room*
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Old Jul 04, 2012, 01:28 PM   #3
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As far as my opinion, I think John went into a relationship with Yoko for all of the right reasons: She stimulated him in ways nobody else ever had especially artisitcally and reached him in ways nobody ever had.

but I think Yoko went into it for the wrong reasons. I believe Tony Bramwell and everything he said about it. Also, I believe the rumors of John being a house husband back when it was unheard of was because he lost his muse at first and had nothing else to do until that was resolved. based on the book by his fortune teller. I do think he and Yoko amazingly turned it into something along the men's liberation front.

My favorite controversial subject because it touches me deeply is the rumors of John's bisexuality. People act like it's public opinion on whether someone is bisexual or gay. A person's sexuality isn't based on public opinion. It's based on what attracts them. Plus what they may have comes to terms with themselves. the only opinion is whether it's considered repulsive or not by the individual discussing it.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 05:37 AM   #4
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Post As you correcty say...

... it's an untouchable subjects thread, so I won't touch it in order not get burned

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Old Jul 05, 2012, 10:51 AM   #5
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hey there scruff i don't know if this belongs here but i'd like to make a statement about John and Yoko's relationship and how
in influences my new found love. before i found my love i never understood how deepy in love they were. i fully understand that now.

some believe that he needed he i say the needed each other.
like how Aaron and i need each other.

for now thats all i have to say *exits room*
This is a lovely post, JLG. I think you made a truly strong point here. When you think of John & Yoko- or at least when I do- I always think of them as one word. They seemed to complete one another to that extent, and I always make it a point to mention that John really went out on a limb to express his love for this lady. It was so imperative that the world understood that he loved her, that they loved each other. Perhaps that is part of the reason why J&Y can be hard to swallow for some. I mean, anytime someone feels they are being fed too much of something they'd rather not care about...well, it isn't responded to with glee.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 10:52 AM   #6
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... it's an untouchable subjects thread, so I won't touch it in order not get burned

Snoopy
Part of what makes Menlove so awesome is that we have so many with differing viewpoints and we DISCUSS a heck of a lot. I love that. I may not always agree, but I appreciate the candor and intelligence of my fellow Menlovians.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 10:56 AM   #7
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My favorite controversial subject because it touches me deeply is the rumors of John's bisexuality. People act like it's public opinion on whether someone is bisexual or gay. A person's sexuality isn't based on public opinion. It's based on what attracts them. Plus what they may have comes to terms with themselves. the only opinion is whether it's considered repulsive or not by the individual discussing it.
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. I can't tell you enough how much I do. I feel that there is a real issue in the media now to make sure they broadcast everyone's "Coming Out" even when some people don't necessarily want to, feel the need to, come out. I mean, it's a very personal/private decision, but everyone wants to make it the world's business.

That is, of course, the consequence of being in the limelight, but I personally find that it is a matter of personal choice and I detest people prodding/picking apart/claiming to know and making such a massive issue of it. Just my two cents, and perhaps I divvied away from your point. But I had to get it off my chest.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 11:02 AM   #8
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we DISCUSS a heck of a lot.
Yes, that's the whole point: DISCUSSION. However, be warned that if you state an opinion--especially a strong one--someone may disagree. And if they are not getting personal then I don't understand what's wrong with disagreement.

I've taken a lot of $h!t from people around here because of my opinions, but I back them up. Unfortunately, I get even more $h!t for backing my opinions up... but whatever.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 11:03 AM   #9
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before i found my love i never understood how deepy in love they were. i fully understand that now.
You'll understand it even better when you're 30. And you'll understand it completely by the time you're 40!
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 11:08 AM   #10
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I've taken a lot of $h!t from people around here because of my opinions, but I back them up. Unfortunately, I get even more $h!t for backing my opinions up... but whatever.
I think we need to make this point a priority. In a thread like this, it is important to understand first and foremost that we will not always agree. But there should not be any personal attacks, particularly when someone takes the time to provide backup for their statements. I really love that we can have these discussions but I don't go for any personal slamming.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 11:09 AM   #11
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I also think he thrived from having some limits placed on him. He knew he was "uncontrollable," and he also knew that Yoko's intentions were really for his own good. Watching his health. Avoiding friends that encouraged him towards excessively destructive behavior, etc.
To me, that is the crux of the argument. John always needed a tempering force in his life... yet he also needed someone to propel him forward. Left to his own devices, he ran the risk of staying still, of giving in to his own ennui and the self-confidence issues that would sometimes paralyze him.

Yoko gave him very clear boundaries (lol ~ he sounds like a kid... which, in many ways, he still was... they say that people can get 'stuck' emotionally at the age a big childhood trauma happened to them) but she also represented the forward movement in his life. Even during the Dakota years... she took care of the biz so that they could move forward while John had to make sure Sean was growing up healthy and strong.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 11:10 AM   #12
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I know there are other controversial subjects I wanted to discuss, but I'm a bit in a rush. I'll give 'em a good think and hit this thread up later, Scruffie...
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 11:17 AM   #13
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Left to his own devices, he ran the risk of staying still, of giving in to his own ennui and the self-confidence issues that would sometimes paralyze him.
This is how I feel as well. I think John needed to be encouraged and inspired to produce his best work, but he also needed something to motivate him to the initiation process. He could very easily slip into his dream world (and yet he was also so down to earth in many ways). Complex. So freaking complex.

Quote:
Yoko gave him very clear boundaries (lol ~ he sounds like a kid... which, in many ways, he still was... they say that people can get 'stuck' emotionally at the age a big childhood trauma happened to them) but she also represented the forward movement in his life. Even during the Dakota years... she took care of the biz so that they could move forward while John had to make sure Sean was growing up healthy and strong.
The emotional stagnation is absolutely true. I know from experiences with someone close to me. It's very difficult to comprehend someone experiencing this, but it makes so much sense. I think John needed the mother figure that Yoko provided. To so many people, this seems unhealthy and 'strange,' but how can we define what is 'normal' in any relationship, for the most part? I mean, who has that right? Couples are made up of individuals and they do not mirror other couples. John and Yoko were unique and completely their own couple. I just feel like it's easy to pick on Yoko and divulge her intentions. She is far from perfect, but ultimately I see John's face and hear his words and know that she made him happy.

This is why I don't get the Yoko hate.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 11:18 AM   #14
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I know there are other controversial subjects I wanted to discuss, but I'm a bit in a rush. I'll give 'em a good think and hit this thread up later, Scruffie...
I can't wait!!!!
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 11:33 AM   #15
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This is a lovely post, JLG. I think you made a truly strong point here. When you think of John & Yoko- or at least when I do- I always think of them as one word. They seemed to complete one another to that extent, and I always make it a point to mention that John really went out on a limb to express his love for this lady. It was so imperative that the world understood that he loved her, that they loved each other. Perhaps that is part of the reason why J&Y can be hard to swallow for some. I mean, anytime someone feels they are being fed too much of something they'd rather not care about...well, it isn't responded to with glee.
i'm begining to think Aaron is the rencarnation of John.
he goses far to express his love.
theres is this one time he wasnt online for a bit it was near the end of the school year and he was streesed. Aaron sent me an email telling me he
was streesed by the end of the school year and didnt want to say anything that would hurt are relationship. and aplogized i dont know how many times.
everytime we talk he tells me he loves me.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 02:13 PM   #16
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I always thought Yoko was more of a mother figure to John more than anything,but that's just my opinion.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 02:28 PM   #17
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I always thought Yoko was more of a mother figure to John more than anything,but that's just my opinion.
And your opinion is what we want! Please feel free to add more anytime.
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Old Jul 05, 2012, 05:31 PM   #18
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Regarding John's sexuality, has Elton John ever made a statement regarding this? If Elton says John wasn't gay, that's good enough for me. Case closed.
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Old Jul 06, 2012, 04:47 AM   #19
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Thumbs up Well said...

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If Elton says John wasn't gay, that's good enough for me. Case closed.
... would be good enough for me too

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Old Jul 06, 2012, 10:07 AM   #20
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Regarding John's sexuality, has Elton John ever made a statement regarding this? If Elton says John wasn't gay, that's good enough for me. Case closed.
I'm not sure if you're serious, but I'm going to assume that you are.

When it comes to John's sexuality, I don't think it's ever been seriously proposed that he was gay... just that he may have had some homosexual experiences, which is VERY different from being gay. And I wouldn't take Elton's word as the Holy Grail in the matter, since he himself still had one foot firmly in the closet at the time he and John were close. Besides, Elton was a good friend and good friends don't "out" each other.

When it comes to a person's sexuality--especially someone as complex as John Lennon--I don't think you can ever say "case closed." Sexuality, for the vast majority of human beings, is not so finite. One or two homosexual experiences does not a homosexual make... and the people who say, "John Lennon was gay because he slept with Brian Epstein" have an overly simplistic view of the matter.

My personal opinion is that John was very sexually adventurous and that he probably tried a lot of different things... most of which we'll never know about.
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