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Old Jul 08, 2006, 05:48 AM   #1
sandmountainslim
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Default If December 8 never happened...

What do you think would have became of John?
I don't believe that he would be alive today, probably wouldn't have lived through the 80's. If I recall correctly the coroners report stated that he was in terrible physical condition.
Double Fantasy would probably have been a half-successful comeback and I doubt he would have released anything past Milk and Honey (if he released that) due to the changing nature of rock music in the 80's and the MTV phenomenon.
Before John was murdered most of the fans and the public at large considered Paul to be "The main creative Beatle", it was the fact that John died so early that put him in the public's mind as the icon of the group.
What do you think would have happened?
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Old Jul 08, 2006, 08:59 AM   #2
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That's rather negative.

I don't like to speculate on what John's life would have been like if he'd lived past 40, but I do know at least one thing: Double Fantasy would have received all of it's due praise. It's absolutely every bit as good as POB is, and much more listenable for most people. And he would have embraced MTV and the internet. John Lennon was all about communication, and these new medias would have excited and pleased him.
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Old Jul 08, 2006, 09:47 AM   #3
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I'm not trying to slam John in any way, I just don't think things would have gone well for him in the eighties and he most likely wouldn't have survived to see the internet due to his health.
I have been one of John's fans since Dec. 9th 1980 , before his death I had never heard of him (I was only 10) but starting that tuesday I read all that I could and had a copy of Double Fantasy within the week and within two years I had all of his albums save for SINYC.
I love John's music, I just don't think he could have held on and "kept it going" like McCartney and Dylan have done.
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Old Jul 08, 2006, 11:08 AM   #4
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Quote:
If I recall correctly the coroners report stated that he was in terrible physical condition.
Maybe I'm missing something, but that might have been due to the fact that he got shot several times. As for DF, it was already pretty successful before his death, although that is what unfortunately made sales surge.

Like LovinLennon said, I don't like assuming what would have happened, especially whether or not he'd still be alive today.
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Old Jul 08, 2006, 02:43 PM   #5
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I agree with SandMountainSlim with what the person is saying about.
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Old Jul 09, 2006, 08:33 AM   #6
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I totally agree with ringo_rama.!! There were five bullets in his chest.

John was rather thin, oh yes, that was pretty obvious, but was that "terrible physical condition"???
Do you remember that Ringo is his childhood was a very very sick little boy?? Pretty bad shape then.....But he is still with us.... thank God.

I don´t like either to predict anything...
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Old Jul 09, 2006, 09:44 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acabrera
I totally agree with ringo_rama.!! There were five bullets in his chest.

John was rather thin, oh yes, that was pretty obvious, but was that "terrible physical condition"???
Do you remember that Ringo is his childhood was a very very sick little boy?? Pretty bad shape then.....But he is still with us.... thank God.

I don´t like either to predict anything...
I am refering to something I read several years back that the coroner's report stated that his lungs and heart were in terrible shape (non bullet related) due to smoking etc. (I smoke also, not throwin stones at John) and that basicly he was a very ill and frail individual. For a forty year old man he LOOKED sixty in 1980.
WP

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Old Jul 09, 2006, 12:00 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandmountainslim
For a forty year old man he LOOKED sixty in 1980.
WP

Well, I only hope I look that "frail" and "unhealthy" when I'm sixty!

I don't see a point in speculating. John was an ever-changing, unpredictable human being; who knows what could've been?
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Old Jul 09, 2006, 09:31 PM   #9
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Yeah, well, I've also read John's nostrils were collapsed due to excessive cocaine use, but I don't think he'd have sounded as good as he did on DF/M&H if that were true. I've also read John plowed Brian Epstein and had incestuous fantasies about his mother. Don't believe everything you read, okay? Sometimes people lie in books for money. *cough* Guiliano and Goldsmith *cough*
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Old Jul 10, 2006, 03:16 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandmountainslim
... and I doubt he would have released anything past Milk and Honey (if he released that) due to the changing nature of rock music in the 80's and the MTV phenomenon.
Among other things, John (like Paul) was very good at ''adapting'' his song writing to ''the times''. He didn't write all those #1's, from the early 60's all the way through the mid 1970's by accident, and I am sure he would have adapted, somwhow, to the 1980's.

Besides, a REALLY good song will always ''sell'', regardless of the ''style'' or of the ''era'' it's released in.
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Old Jul 10, 2006, 10:54 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LovinLennon909
Sometimes people lie in books for money. *cough* Guiliano and Goldsmith *cough*
yeah man! (and you meant goldman, right?). books by those two should be avoided.

back to the topic:
if december 8 never happened this thread wouldn't exist.
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Old Jul 10, 2006, 11:25 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by instant karla
yeah man! (and you meant goldman, right?). books by those two should be avoided.
Unless you want a REALLY good belly laugh!!!!!
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Old Jul 10, 2006, 02:32 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandmountainslim
I am refering to something I read several years back that the coroner's report stated that his lungs and heart were in terrible shape (non bullet related) due to smoking etc. (I smoke also, not throwin stones at John) and that basicly he was a very ill and frail individual. For a forty year old man he LOOKED sixty in 1980.
WP
I do remember hearing that his lungs were quite dark due to smoking & such. There have been conversations fans have had regarding cancer. I mean, since George passed away from it, fans have certainly wondered if the same would've happened to John. But we'll never know.

I still often wonder about how things might have turned out from time to time. For example, after John's death, it really turned a LOT of people into fans. There seemed to be a mini Beatlemania all over again. So, I can't help but wonder, would something else have brought them back into focus?

Also, after John's death, it seemed Paul, George & Ringo were motivated to work out any issues they had between them. Would they have all eventually realized they needed to work things out had all of them made it well into the 80s?

Would the Anthology stuff ever come about? Not speaking of say, "Real Love" or "Free As A Bird", but just to have them do a documentary & talk about their memories, etc.

Not to mention... how would John's family be today? Would he & Julian been able to continue a relationship? Would Julian & Sean be closer? etc,...etc...

So, yeah! There are many things to consider!
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Old Jul 10, 2006, 04:09 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ringo_rama
Like LovinLennon said, I don't like assuming what would have happened, especially whether or not he'd still be alive today.
I agree, RR. We can "what if" and/or "if only" it to death. Yeah, it's nice to dream about John being alive today. But kiddies, that's all it is and can ever be, unfortunately.
His memory is kept alive and well here on BeatleLinks. And that's good enough for me.
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Old Jul 10, 2006, 10:59 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by instant karla
yeah man! (and you meant goldman, right?). books by those two should be avoided.

back to the topic:
if december 8 never happened this thread wouldn't exist.
Yep! I meant Goldman, thanks. Oops.
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Old Jul 15, 2006, 05:22 AM   #16
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I think John would've had a fairly successful post-'80 solo career. After all, his 'muse' or creative juices were just starting to kick in again. Who knows how many more hit songs he may have written. I think had Grow Old With Me been rightfully completed, it would now be a standard, right alongside Yesterday. I truly believe that.

I also believe the Beatles would've reunited and become a studio-only band again. For how long? Who knows.
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Old Jul 28, 2006, 11:12 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by 4No1
I also believe the Beatles would've reunited and become a studio-only band again. For how long? Who knows.
you know, I really can't see that.

But, I do agree with whoever said that he would embrace MTV and the Internet. He WAS all about communication.

Also, yes he was thin and he may have looked frail, but you know maybe perhaps he was in the best shape of his life. (I however, disagree with my own comment.. considering 1965 was like a pretty hot year for him, hehe)

Besides, had he lived well into .. well now, John would still be campaigning for peace, he would still be doing what he did for the better of the world, that and maybe perhaps.. he wouldn't even be with yoko.
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Old Aug 21, 2006, 10:07 AM   #18
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I agree with MaccaTwst9 -- as much as I would have loved to see a reunion of the four Beatles, it's hard to imagine it happening, had Dec 8 never happened. Too much water had gone under the bridge (espy between Paul and George). But I think John would have had a very successful decade -- probably a world tour in 1981 even. But I have a feeling he'd have lost interest as the music scene continued to drift into synthopop.
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Old Aug 21, 2006, 03:23 PM   #19
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he would be pushing for peace to be sure and creating music that is the sad part the music that was lost to us we can only wonder and i bet all the technology would be fun for him
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Old Aug 24, 2006, 06:15 AM   #20
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Interesting "what if", although the original poster seemed to be taking it down a rather dark road. I never knew the coroner's report had been released publically, for one thing. Who mentioned it--the "gruesome twosome" (Messers Goldman & Guiliano)? If so, I can see how I *might* have missed it. If it was released in the general press, it's *possible* that I missed that tidbit, but not bloody likely. After reading the first post in this thread I googled it, but all I found was some conspiracy theory site run by a distinctly twisted and odd individual who claims that "the Jews" killed John. (Don't ask; it was dreadful and lacked the laughability of another site run by some poor schizophrenic guy who claims Stephen King, the author, killed John). The only thing even that site mentioned regarding a coroner's report was where the bullets entered John's body and how it would have been "impossible" for He Who Shall Not Be Named to have shot him in that region.

Well, the man smoked like a fiend for years so I'll concede just out of common sense that his lungs and possibly his heart were probably not in the greatest shape when he died, but I hardly think that he was teetering on the edge of the grave on 12/8/80 until the Jerk of All Jerks shoved him into it. After all, Yoko smoked just as much as he did and she's very much alive, last time I checked. Unfortunately the nicotine addiction eventually caught up with poor George.

Anyway. Health factors aside, the question is an interesting one. I don't believe the Beatles would have *ever* gotten back together, even for an "Anthology" type program, had he lived. John was just too contrarian and stubborn to have let that happen, I'm afraid. My significant other once asked me if I thought they would have reunited for Live Aid if John hadn't been killed, and I would have to say, based on his comments to David Sheff in the fall of 1980, I don't think so, barring something completely unforseen.

In a way, John's death freed the other three from the pressure of being Beatles in real time and in that way, was a twisted sort of blessing for the survivors. It pains me to say so, but as long as they all lived, none of them were able to escape the expectations and the living, current reality of being Beatles. Even though they had broken up 10 years earlier, and despite any Beatle's words to the contrary, they were Beatles in real time, in the public imagination. As long as the possibility of a reunion existed, they were publically subject to the pressure of being Beatles first and individuals second--no matter how much they wished for and stated the opposite. Once John had been killed, that possibility no longer existed and the Beatles became frozen in time; their collective, living story was complete; lifted from comedy to high tragedy. The dream was well and truly over, and in a way it freed them to be able to revisit their Beatle past and reunite, like an old high-school reunion, without the pressure of being Beatles in real time.

In "Skywriting By Word of Mouth," John sadly had no idea how prophetic he was when he wrote, "I started the band. I disbanded it."

What would have happened, had he lived? No Beatles reunion, for one thing. I don't know how his career would have gone. I would like to think that the 1980's may have taken on a different and less crass, greedy tone, but who knows? Would the whole "Live Aid" event even happened? With rock's original voice of concience alive, maybe Sir Bob and Lord God Bono wouldn't have felt compelled to step up to the plate.

I would like to think that John and Julian would have worked on their relationship and come to some sort of peace with each other. John and Sean--who knows?

I wonder how John would have reacted to 9/11 and the attack on his beloved adopted hometown, and how would he have reacted to the policies of the Bush II administration?

But, as the man said himself, this is all "digging over graves," and life is too short to do that.

Interesting question, nonetheless.






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