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Old Jul 14, 2003, 06:22 PM   #21
leonardobeat
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Default Re: Pauline Sutcliffe accuses Lennon for her brother\'s death

Thanks to Freda for posting those interesting links. I've read what they say and I feel better because that makes John innocent.

However it feels strange knowing that John could kick his best friend in that way, even if we know friends use to fight with eachother but if Stuart could forgive John, then I guess his friendship worths more to him than his mistakes and that gives me something to think about.

Oh well, I'm sure right now they are drinking a big beer together, wherever they are.
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Old Jul 15, 2003, 03:45 AM   #22
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Default Re: Pauline Sutcliffe accuses Lennon for her brother\'s death

Quote:
Originally Posted By mccartneymaniac:
IT HINK SHE IS GRASPING AT STRAWS. I DOUBT JOHN HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH STU'S DEATH BUT HE ISN'T HERE AND SO SHE FEELS SHE CAN SAY THINGS BECAUSE NOBODY IS LEFT. ODD HOW PEOPLE LOVE TO DO THAT. JOHN WAS NO ANGEL NEITHER ARE ANY OF US BUT SHE LLOSES CREDIBILITY BY SAYING THINGS LIKE THAT.
<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">mccartneymaniac, may I please ask you not to type in all caps in future? Not only are your posts hard to read that way, but that is considered "shouting" on the Web, and therefore poor netiquette. Not trying to be picky, just pointing out that it's much easier to read posts that aren't all in caps.

Now, back to the topic at hand...I really do not know what Pauline's problem is, considering in earlier books she asserted that the things she is now saying were not true...there must be some reason behind her change of heart, because the book really was quite bitter.

I'm still waiting for my friend to send me back the text of that article I wrote...sorry it's taking so long!
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Old Jul 15, 2003, 06:34 AM   #23
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Default Re: Pauline Sutcliffe accuses Lennon for her brother\'s death

When someone close to you dies, esp if it is at such a young age as Stuart was, it is I think very easy to become accusatory and place the blame on someone and I DO feel sorry for Stu's sister as it is obvious that she still feels his death very much But whatever the circumstances might have seemed to Pauline Sutcliffe, medical evidence proves otherwise, and in my books medical proof goes a lot farther than personal opinion.
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Old Jul 15, 2003, 09:23 AM   #24
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Default Re: Pauline Sutcliffe accuses Lennon for her brother\'s death

Quote:
Originally Posted By HMVNipper:
...there must be some reason behind her change of heart...
<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Old Jul 15, 2003, 12:34 PM   #25
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Default Re: Pauline Sutcliffe accuses Lennon for her brother\'s death

Quote:
Originally Posted By lennon4:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Originally Posted By HMVNipper:
...there must be some reason behind her change of heart...
<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Well, yes...she does say something about being denied royalties for the use of Stu's image, and complains that he was "chopped off" of the Sgt. Pepper cover when it went to CD...yeah, I'd say that's a good part of it... [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
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Old Jul 16, 2003, 03:47 AM   #26
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Default Re: Pauline Sutcliffe accuses Lennon for her brother\'s death

Okay...here is the review of Pauline Sutcliffe's book that I wrote. It appeared in Daytrippin Magazine about a year and a half ago. I tried to keep it professional, but as you can see, I didn't really like the book very much...

I think the reason some of this is surfacing again now is that there's a paperback edition of the book around; I have seen it in some bookstores, and no doubt that is why all this talk is back again...

****************

The Beatles' Shadow: Stuart Sutcliffe and his Lonely Hearts Club

By Pauline Sutcliffe with Douglas Thompson

Copyright 2001, 247 pages, Sidgwick & Jackson, an imprint of Pan Macmillan, Ltd., London


Of all the figures who have populated the early Beatles' story, Stuart Sutcliffe has always emerged as the most romanticized and the most tragic. In this new book, his younger sister Pauline attempts to set the record straight
about Stu's actual contributions to the band during its formative period, and she does so in a manner that may be construed by many as controversial.

Certainly, advance reviews of this book have painted it as lurid tabloid fodder, focusing on Ms. Sutcliffe's allegations that her brother may have had a homosexual relationship with John Lennon, and that a serious fight between them may have been a contributing factor to Stu's untimely death. However, while these issues are indeed raised in the book, it is also much more than that; it is also a sister's loving tribute to her brother, and a glimpse into the very earliest days of the Beatles, a period that has long intrigued students of the band.

Much of the material presented here is not new, though it is fascinating to see it in a somewhat more intimate manner, presented through excerpts from Stuart's letters home from Germany that provide an interesting, albeit somewhat sanitized look at what it was really like during the Beatles' formative years. (She does say that the stories in the letters were in all likelihood "cleaned up" in order to appease their mother).

That said, there is also a lot of airing of dirty laundry. Ms. Sutcliffe's professional training is as a psychologist, and occasionally the book sinks into lengthy psychological profiles of various players in the drama, notably
John Lennon and Astrid Kirschherr. She makes a convincing case that John might have benefited in his lifetime from some good, sound, orthodox psychological intervention, not a particularly outrageous suggestion considering this is John Lennon we are talking about. However, in places her analysis seems contradictory; on the one hand, she says that she liked John, and on the other she appears to hate him. The same goes for her discussions of Astrid, whom she describes as loving at one point and insensitive at another. Certainly there is no love lost between Ms. Sutcliffe and many other people who have figured prominently in the history of the Beatles; she feels her brother has been slighted, and rightly so, although at times the book seems like nothing more than a laundry list of wrongs perpetrated on her family by the Beatles and their cohorts, which can sound like excessive complaining at times.

The most controversial passages in the book involve her discussion of the true nature of the friendship between John and Stuart. In context, these statements are nowhere near as lurid as they would seem, nor as lurid as other reviews have painted them. Realistic Beatles fans are not so naïve as to dismiss this possibility out of hand; after all, both John and Stuart, as artists, would be more likely than most people to experiment. She makes a convincing case for a homosexual liaison between them, and indeed says that she has believed for many years that such a likelihood existed, though she never aired these views before now in order to protect her mother, who died in 1983. It is unfortunate, then, that she uses as supporting material in order to justify this belief substantial quotes from Geoffrey Giuliano's 2001 book, "Lennon In America." Giuliano has a reputation among Beatles fans as being particularly tabloidesque in his writings, frequently conjuring up scenarios complete with
dialogue that seem impossible and far-fetched, and the bit that Ms. Sutcliffe quotes is no exception, and does not add to her credibility. There is nothing wrong with believing what she believes, nor telling the world so, but there is
plenty wrong with using such an unreliable source to justify the claim. This, and the lengthy psychological discussion of male homosexuality that follows, seem like a desperate attempt to find justification and absolution for making this kind of allegation about her own brother.

In another controversial statement, she says that she believes that it was a serious, unprovoked fight between Stuart and John, in which John kicked Stuart in the head, that was a direct contributing factor to Stuart's untimely death. This is also not a theory that is new; it has been bandied about for years, first surfacing in Albert Goldman's "The Lives of John Lennon." However, again this is a case of an unfortunate choice of supporting material, as Goldman's book has an even more unsavory reputation among Beatle fans than Giuliano's.

Interestingly, prior to her discussion of this fight, which she says Stuart told her about at length, she does talk about an earlier fight in Liverpool during which he was severely beaten, with bruising all over his forehead, though she maintains that this fight had nothing to do with the brain hemorrhage that eventually killed her brother. To the casual reader, this might seem a bit far-fetched, especially considering that it was determined after his death that Stuart had a depression of the skull in the area where he was kicked. However, she maintains that until the unprovoked fight during which John Lennon allegedly beat Stuart in a drunken rage and then fled the scene, her family never noticed a decline in his health or his personality. She says she is convinced that it was a kick to the head during that fight that eventually led to Stuart's death.

There is a lot of bitterness in this book, a feeling that Ms. Sutcliffe feels that her brother has been overlooked and denied his rightful place as an artist because of his association with the Beatles. She speaks of letters that are missing, personal effects she was forced to obtain through legal action, and
lack of caring once her brother was dead. She also talks about the recent exhibit of her brother's artwork at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and how it prompted her decision to sell the work and divest herself of the responsibility
of being the executrix of his estate. She claims to be trapped by the Beatles, and expresses a desire for closure. This is not a happy book, and in places it forces the reader to take a step back and wonder what the author's motives must be, if she claims to dislike the Beatles association so much. One can only
hope that after the publication of this book, she can find the peace she so desperately seems to want.

-Susan Ryan

Susan is the editor of Rooftop Sessions, a monthly e-zine on fan fiction. Check
out her website at www.rooftopsessions.com.

[size="1"][ Jul 16, 2003, 04:53 AM: Message Edited By: HMVNipper ][/size]
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Old Jul 16, 2003, 10:47 AM   #27
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Default Re: Pauline Sutcliffe accuses Lennon for her brother\'s death

thanks for posting your review, susan. very informative!
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Old Jul 16, 2003, 12:20 PM   #28
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Default Re: Pauline Sutcliffe accuses Lennon for her brother\'s death

Yes...Susan THANKS for posting the article. Miss Sutcliffe is definitley venting. How can she write a book about Stu's adventures/life when she wasn't in Germany during their stay there? Why didn't she confront John BACK THEN after Stu's passing? Anyway...we'll never KNOW any of the "particular's" since both parties have long passed away. Except, I'm sure Astrid has her own opinions, but she's not talking...

Donna~
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Old Jul 16, 2003, 01:31 PM   #29
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Default Re: Pauline Sutcliffe accuses Lennon for her brother\'s death

Its always the same thing when someone has a book out or wants publicity in one way or another-and it works, yes?

It's really funny because I once read something from Astrid saying that such an accusation is beyond preposterous, considering she was with Stuart the majority of his last few years. His sister who is doing all this finger-pointing was quite a bit younger and obviously wants to make money in her own treacherous way. (And I don't care if I don't know the woman well enough to say that. Its true.)

I wish I could find this summation I once came upon, that was researched by many doctors, that concludes that even if John DID beat Stuart up, he couldn't have died because of that- given the amount of time he lived afterwards (and I honestly think that whole John beating up Stuart story is...just...crap). I know its on the web somewhere, and it was very thourough, but I couldn't be bothered to look for it since I think Pauline and her shit story aren't really worth it. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

If I ever come across it though, I will surely post it. [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[size="1"][ Jul 16, 2003, 02:33 PM: Message Edited By: Fly ][/size]
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Old Jul 16, 2003, 04:02 PM   #30
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Default Re: Pauline Sutcliffe accuses Lennon for her brother\'s death

Quote:
Originally Posted By leonardobeat:
What's going under the hammer?
Item: Love notes from Sutcliffe to Astrid

What they are: Three handwritten notes, including one which begins: "My beautiful darling. I love you. Thank you so much for your love"

Estimated value: £1,400-£2,000
<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">I'm not going to comment on what Stu died from - I'll leave that to people who were there or are more medically qualified than myself.
I'm not even going to comment on whether he got into a rumble, or a love affair, with John.

However, I would like to comment as a human being, on the proposed sale of a love letter belonging to your dead brother. To my mind, anyone that could do this is not a reliable source of information.
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Old Jul 16, 2003, 04:04 PM   #31
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Default Re: Pauline Sutcliffe accuses Lennon for her brother\'s death

Oh yes - I'm sorry - I want to thank leonardobeat and Nipper for their efforts here.
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Old Jul 16, 2003, 04:20 PM   #32
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Default Re: Pauline Sutcliffe accuses Lennon for her brother\'s death

Quote:
Originally Posted By old_moon_shining:
Oh yes - I'm sorry - I want to thank leonardobeat and Nipper for their efforts here.
<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">You are quite welcome, as are the others who thanked me...my pleasure.

You guys know where I stand on this!
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Old Jul 16, 2003, 04:50 PM   #33
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Default Re: Pauline Sutcliffe accuses Lennon for her brother\'s death

Quote:
Originally Posted By old_moon_shining:
Oh yes - I'm sorry - I want to thank leonardobeat and Nipper for their efforts here.
<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">You're welcome [img]graemlins/thumbsup2.gif[/img] *

Quote:
Originally Posted By HMVNipper:
You guys know where I stand on this!
<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">And especial thanks to Susan for your enormous help [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Old Jul 16, 2003, 09:16 PM   #34
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Default Re: Pauline Sutcliffe accuses Lennon for her brother\'s death

Thanks, Susan! [img]graemlins/thumbsup1.gif[/img]

-lennon4
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Old Jul 17, 2003, 08:14 PM   #35
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Default Re: Pauline Sutcliffe accuses Lennon for her brother\'s death

Absolutely. Thank you so much for posting your review, Nipper!! Very informative and well-written. It's interesting that she's a psychologist 'cause when discussing her claim that John killed Stu and the fact that she'd recently come out with a book, a friend of mine said 'That's good. If it sells well, she can afford therapy.' Heheh [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Quote:
What's going under the hammer?

Item: Sutcliffe's final sketchbook

What it is: Black book containing scrawls and abstract sketches

Estimated value: £3,000-£4,000

Item: Lyrics for five "lost" Beatles songs

What they are: At least one is thought to have been co-written with John Lennon

Estimated value: £3,000-£4,000

Item: Letters from Astrid Kirchherr to Sutcliffe's family

What they are: The eight letters praise Lennon and George Harrison, who is said to "sing a lovely song"

Estimated value: £5,400-£7,000

Item: Love notes from Sutcliffe to Astrid

What they are: Three handwritten notes, including one which begins: "My beautiful darling. I love you. Thank you so much for your love"

Estimated value: £1,400-£2,000
<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">What a shame that these items will most likely go to personal collectors rather than a museum of some sort...
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Old Jul 17, 2003, 09:38 PM   #36
HariScruff_00
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Default Re: Pauline Sutcliffe accuses Lennon for her brother\'s death

I didn't see that there was a link to this site but then again its late so i coulda missed it. anyway:

"A medically informed
post-mortem on
Stuart Sutcliffe."
http://www.rockmine.music.co.uk/Reaper/StuPM.html
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Old Jul 18, 2003, 01:50 PM   #37
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Default Re: Pauline Sutcliffe accuses Lennon for her brother\'s death

Quote:
Originally Posted By HariScruff_00:
I didn't see that there was a link to this site but then again its late so i coulda missed it. anyway:

"A medically informed
post-mortem on
Stuart Sutcliffe."
http://www.rockmine.music.co.uk/Reaper/StuPM.html
<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">this was great resource, thanks!
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