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andalucia Dec 01, 2009 09:22 AM

12 Arnold Grove before George
 
Hi all

I have posted this link before

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_...asualty=198846

It is a soldier who died during WW1 who lived at 12 Arnold Grove.

I have been researching two war memorial in Liverpool and stumbled across this man. Some of you may be interested to learn about this man who once lived in George's house.

William Coleman enlisted into the 20th battalion of the Kings Liverpool regiment on 25 May 1915, as Private 29172. He gives his age as 17 years. William is 5 feet 2 1/4 inches tall and has a scar on his abdomen.

His father is listed as John Coleman of 12 Arnold grove, his mother is listed as deceased. He has two brothers James and John with no address listed. And three sisters Mary and Elizsabeth of 12 Arnold Grove and Alice address unknown.

William trains with the Kings Liverpool regiment then on 30 March 1916 he sails from Folkstone UK aboard S.S INVICTA to France. His regiment is at Etaples, France on 31 march. They will see action on the Western Front as the year goes on.

On 11 November 1916 William leaves Le Touquet France for England. Once there he is transferred to The 4th Northern General Hospital in Lincoln suffering from Trench foot. he spends 8 days in the hospital.

William is in the UK until leaving for France for a second time on 30 May 1917. where again he sees action on the Western front.

On 29 March 1918 he is transferred to the North Staffordshire Regiment as Private 41818. Basically they where boosting the Infantry for attack and William was selected. Just 17 days later Willian went missing in action presumed dead on 15 April. His bady was later found and he was buried at Bailluel Communal Cemetery Extension ( Nord ) in France.


This letter is dated 19 March 1919 listing William's father John.


This letter is dated 18 September 1919 listing William's friend D.M Dilworth

Laburnum Grove is very close to Arnold Grove



Reciept for William's War medals. Again signed by his friend.

Now in the 1901 census listed at 12 Arnold Grove are..................
Charles and Mary Hickson, both aged 26. Charles is a Coachman.They live with their son Charles aged 2. So a few more who lived in George's house.

Interesting in 1901 in the house next door at Number 10 Arnold grove is a Harrison family. I have no idea if they are related to George? I know his nan once lived in Albert Grove behind Arnold Grove.

the Harrison family at number 10 is................................................ .....
William 39 and Margaret 35. William is a Corporation Tram Driver and he was born in Manchester. Their children are John 16 ( Grocer Shop Boy ) Ruth 9, Isabella 3 and charlotte 2 months.

In 1891 Arnold Grove was not there. I have yet to check 1911.

Well I hope somebody finds this interesting. Its nice to see who was there before George.

Tony

DizzymissLizzy909 Dec 01, 2009 10:11 AM

So interesting!! Do you do a lot of this research as a hobby?

12 Arnold Grove is so well known as George's old residence, I never thought about the fact that it was probably around years before he was. Sounds like there was already a lot of history there.

I LOVE this kind of individual history from WWI or II (and when it's connected to the Beatles it's even more fascinating). That's a great read andalucia!

andalucia Dec 01, 2009 10:37 AM

I have been researching two memorials in Liverpool. I have created sites for them

http://www.freewebs.com/eldonmemww1/

http://anthony1965.webs.com/

I have also just started a site about Liverpool Stories during the wars.

http://liverpoolremembrance.weebly.com/

Its new but interesting.

Im looking at Ringo's addresses hoping to find a link.

Tony

Hari's Chick Dec 01, 2009 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andalucia (Post 986246)
Interesting in 1901 in the house next door at Number 10 Arnold grove is a Harrison family. I have no idea if they are related to George? I know his nan once lived in Albert Grove behind Arnold Grove.

This is all so interesting to read! Thanks so much for posting this. Do you have any more info on George's grandma's house? Any photos or stories? I'd love to read any more on this. :smile1:

Hari's Chick Dec 01, 2009 10:57 AM

Oh, when my Mom and I visited England we did the Beatle tour and of course saw Arnold Grove. It was for sale at the time. My Mom and I inquired about it, and at the time it was selling for around $60,000/American. My Mom said to me how much she wanted me to have the house... and I saw that look in her eye like she was about to do something hugely impulsive! I disuaded her~ it would have been hard to manage, find renters and things, from all the way in California. I was afraid it would be a headache for her in the end of things. But I almost- almost!- was one of the owners! :)

andalucia Dec 01, 2009 11:08 AM

Not sure what number she lived in Albert Grove. But im sure somebody will. I will ask over here.

andalucia Dec 01, 2009 11:12 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/local...es_house.shtml

Mentions it here, but not the door number.

I know it was an even number. I lived in 9 Arnold grove and it was right behind our house. so I wouls say between 6 and 14?

Hari's Chick Dec 01, 2009 11:32 AM

Very interesting! Is a jigger like an alley? So George would've been sneaking out to see his Grandma at six and younger. How sweet is that. I wonder if she moved near them when they moved to Speke? Sounds like it was hard to get housing in the new development, so maybe not? I bet George would have missed being so near his Grandma, but maybe the allure of the new house made it tolerable. :)

It's interesting how the house was small but that they reserved the front room for guests. That's how things were in those days, I think. My parents always kept a room we were not allowed in as well. People don't do that anymore so much.

beatlebangs1964 Dec 01, 2009 02:19 PM

Tony, thank you for this information! I don't know what the Tax Records and/or Deeds & Property Records or Appraisal District Office is called in England (these are a few of the U.S. terms for looking up the ownership and history of a specific piece of property).

It is very interesting to read about the history of the house.

andalucia Dec 01, 2009 11:10 PM

It looks like George's Nan lived at 9 Albert Grove. I was told it was right behind the house we lived in at 9 Arnold grove. The even Numbers where behind our house, but across the street is number 9.

Albert Grove is identical to Arnold Grove. Suprised that the tours dont tell this as it takes about 30 seconds to walk from George's house to his Nan.s house.

FPSHOT Dec 01, 2009 11:32 PM

This is really special info and takes you directly back to England in the 50's and 60's, I love it.

The front room for guests is things we had here as well, so many houses were built in that way.

Thank you so much :teeth1:

andalucia Dec 02, 2009 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beatlebangs1964 (Post 986297)
Tony, thank you for this information! I don't know what the Tax Records and/or Deeds & Property Records or Appraisal District Office is called in England (these are a few of the U.S. terms for looking up the ownership and history of a specific piece of property).

It is very interesting to read about the history of the house.

We do have records here, cant think what they are called. :cross2:

I doubt they would be very good because these houses where rented properties up to after George and his family left the area. So owned probably by the city aouncil or a private landlord. I do know that both Arnold and Albert Grove are unadopted roads. I must check what this really means?

Any of you who have been to Arnold grove. did you take a photo of the street sign? if so it may say " unadopted " below it. It did when I lived there.

Anyone going take a look for it.

andalucia Dec 02, 2009 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hari's Chick (Post 986266)
Very interesting! Is a jigger like an alley?

It's interesting how the house was small but that they reserved the front room for guests. That's how things were in those days, I think. My parents always kept a room we were not allowed in as well. People don't do that anymore so much.

Yes a jigger is an Alley. all closed off now with gates. It would have taken George seconds to run between his and his Nans house.

I remember my nan had a room for guest. used to peek in there as a kid.

andalucia Dec 02, 2009 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hari's Chick (Post 986262)
Oh, when my Mom and I visited England we did the Beatle tour and of course saw Arnold Grove. It was for sale at the time. My Mom and I inquired about it, and at the time it was selling for around $60,000/American. My Mom said to me how much she wanted me to have the house... and I saw that look in her eye like she was about to do something hugely impulsive! I disuaded her~ it would have been hard to manage, find renters and things, from all the way in California. I was afraid it would be a headache for her in the end of things. But I almost- almost!- was one of the owners! :)

Brilliant. you nearly owned George's house.

I remember the lady who lived there Cath or Kath i think her name was? She was a lovely lady. Did you know that George once returned and knocked on her door? She told us that she nearly fell over when she opended the door and saw him. He wanted to see his old house. Not sure when this happened?

Lucy Dec 02, 2009 08:34 AM

this is all very interesting.

beatlebangs1964 Dec 03, 2009 12:57 PM

A jigger was a back alley where people placed trash cans for pick up.

There was another thread about the Wrath of Kath in re people turning up at the door step, wanting to see where George Harrison once lived.

Great story about George coming back to his old home - I wonder when that was as well?

Hari's Chick Dec 05, 2009 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andalucia (Post 986397)
I doubt they would be very good because these houses where rented properties up to after George and his family left the area. So owned probably by the city aouncil or a private landlord. I do know that both Arnold and Albert Grove are unadopted roads. I must check what this really means?

Here's an interesting site which explains about unadopted roads.

http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3356

See the second post for a great explaination. And then post #46 has some pics of Wavertree. :smile1: Mention of Garston, too, lol, that's all the George references I see. Maybe you can see some more? I love the pics of these unadopted roads, even trees uprooting tarmac. Such a great change of pace from how rigid things can be here, anyway. It looks charming, lol, unless you had to drive on it maybe. :D


Quote:

Originally Posted by andalucia (Post 986398)
Yes a jigger is an Alley. all closed off now with gates. It would have taken George seconds to run between his and his Nans house.

I remember my nan had a room for guest. used to peek in there as a kid.

So sweet, little George visiting on his own. :)

We used to sneak into our front room, too. :laugh5:

Quote:

Originally Posted by andalucia (Post 986398)
I remember the lady who lived there Cath or Kath i think her name was? She was a lovely lady. Did you know that George once returned and knocked on her door? She told us that she nearly fell over when she opended the door and saw him. He wanted to see his old house. Not sure when this happened?


I remember George mentioning this in "I, Me, Mine!" How cool you knew the lady who was there to meet George!! I bet they had such a nice visit! Did she share anything you can share with us about that visit? I bet, knowing George, that he backpaged and shared some lovely stories with her!

beatlebangs1964 Dec 07, 2009 10:30 PM

Was it George's maternal or paternal Nan?

Hari's Chick, you just said what I was thinking.

andalucia Dec 09, 2009 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hari's Chick (Post 987128)
Here's an interesting site which explains about unadopted roads.

http://www.yoliverpool.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3356



I remember George mentioning this in "I, Me, Mine!" How cool you knew the lady who was there to meet George!! I bet they had such a nice visit! Did she share anything you can share with us about that visit? I bet, knowing George, that he backpaged and shared some lovely stories with her!


Hey Yo LIverpool :cross2: Im a member of that site, im Spike on there. Its a nice forum.

Kath only told us that George once called, I think with Olivia? The lady who lived at number 1 ( now sadly passed away ) she remembered him as a little boy. She lived there all her life.

andalucia Dec 09, 2009 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beatlebangs1964 (Post 987439)
Was it George's maternal or paternal Nan?

Hari's Chick, you just said what I was thinking.

George's Mums mum Louise Woollam married John French and they lived at 9 Albert Grove. They had 7 children there including George's mum Louise.

I really can not believe that the tours do not take you round there? its George's history. and it is so close to Arnold grove. So if any of you are going then ask the guide when you get to Arnold grove. It will take about 30 seconds to walk there.


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