An assumption [Archive] - BeatleLinks Fab Forum

peaceflame

Nov 15, 2001, 01:55 PM

didnt yoko put something in the newspaper??? i heard she did something....

hmmm....i have often pondered about "if john were alive today what would he do about the war agaisnt terrorism" and i came up with this:

i have no idea.

cept he might have asked, "why do we have to have a WAR on TERRORISM?" or something to the effect of fighting fire with fire, making destruction bigger.
something like that maybe

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/thinker.gif

in otherwords i have no idea. curious question though...

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~~~~~~~
When you see beyond yourself then you will find peace of mind is waiting there

HMVNipper

Nov 15, 2001, 02:41 PM

I beg to differ, I think he'd be mad as hell at what happened to New York. Peace is all well and good, but at this time it is NOT the popular sentiment in the United States, and I think that John, as a New Yorker, would be hurting just as much as the rest of us. He might not approve of war, but I think he might consider this one to be necessary...considering these cowards came in and killed over 5000 innocent people in less than two hours...

Perhaps I am too close to the situation, living in New York City, but I do NOT think he'd be Mister Peace, Sweetness and Light in this case...not if he saw what I saw at Ground Zero.

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Rooftop Sessions - The Finest In Beatles-Related Fiction. November 2001 Issue up now! About.com BEST OF THE NET, April 2001! www.rooftopsessions.com (http://www.rooftopsessions.com)

"O superb! O Manhattan, my own, my peerless! O strongest you in the hour of danger, in crisis! O truer than steel!" -- Walt Whitman

jtal909

Nov 15, 2001, 04:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>Quote:<HR>Originally Posted By HMVNipper:
I beg to differ, I think he'd be mad as hell at what happened to New York. Peace is all well and good, but at this time it is NOT the popular sentiment in the United States, and I think that John, as a New Yorker, would be hurting just as much as the rest of us. He might not approve of war, but I think he might consider this one to be necessary...considering these cowards came in and killed over 5000 innocent people in less than two hours...

Perhaps I am too close to the situation, living in New York City, but I do NOT think he'd be Mister Peace, Sweetness and Light in this case...not if he saw what I saw at Ground Zero.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree wholeheartedly. John loved New York.

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"Why don't you say it in your famous James Mason impersonation?"

peaceflame

Nov 15, 2001, 05:32 PM

i think we all know that john Loved new york. i never said he wouldnt be hurting like the rest of us, or that he wouldnt be mad, but i think Yoko would have changed his feelings about this war enough to say that he would oppose it. but i think he would be intelligent enough to know that war is the only thing we can do, we cant just sit back and watch more buildings being blown up or bake a batch of cookies with a card saying "we forgive you". but i think he would probably do his John thing...writing songs, more philosophical(<<sp??) interviews, etc. maybe he would have just stayed out of the whole thing, do some family stuff, you know.

but thats just my opinion. i also think that its stupid to call it a "war on terrorism" because you might as well call it a "war on war" or "terrorists against terrorism" right?

but we are talking about what John would think....soo...yeah. WELL thats what i think and i LOVE this topic!!

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~~~~~~~
When you see beyond yourself then you will find peace of mind is waiting there

McCharlenstar

Nov 15, 2001, 10:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>Quote:<HR>Originally Posted By Lucy in the diamond sky:
If John was alive today what do you think would be his position about the things that are happening now?

I think he would oppose to the bombing in Afghanistan and naturally he would write many more songs about peace!!!(briefly)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you are right.

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Lucy in the diamond sky

Nov 16, 2001, 03:54 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>Quote:<HR>Originally Posted By jtal909:
[QUOTE]John loved New York.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I needn't and I wouldn't argue with that.

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I want you to make love not war~~John Lennon

HMVNipper

Nov 16, 2001, 04:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>Quote:<HR>Originally Posted By peaceflame:
i think we all know that john Loved new york. i never said he wouldnt be hurting like the rest of us, or that he wouldnt be mad, but i think Yoko would have changed his feelings about this war enough to say that he would oppose it. but i think he would be intelligent enough to know that war is the only thing we can do, we cant just sit back and watch more buildings being blown up or bake a batch of cookies with a card saying "we forgive you". but i think he would probably do his John thing...writing songs, more philosophical(<<sp??) interviews, etc. maybe he would have just stayed out of the whole thing, do some family stuff, you know.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry, Peaceflame, I wasn't trying to sound like I was bashing your opinion, 'cause I wasn't. I was just disagreeing.

I just do not see John "staying out of it" because this is personal to all New Yorkers, and personal to most Americans. And while John was definitely into the whole "peace and love" thing by the end of his life, he was by and large an angry person for most of his 40 years on the planet, and I honestly believe that this unprovoked attack would have made him mad as hell.

No New Yorker can just "stay out of it and do family stuff," not even celebrities, not these days. Believe me, I know from whence I speak, I live less than a mile from the Dakota and am raising a child here. Normalcy is nearly impossible, even when you don't live directly in the Lower Manhattan neighborhood. I WENT to Ground Zero. (There's a topic about it from before you joined, somewhere in the "Off The Beatle Track" forum.)

Believe me when I say that I think it'd be hard for him to stay out of it and try to promote peace when the people who perpetrated this horrible act could care less, do not know the meaning of that word, and would gladly kill innocent men, women and children simply because they are Americans and for no other reason. I cannot imagine that the John Lennon who so lovingly raised his American-born son in New York would stand by and stay out of it and let anyone threaten the life of that child, simply BECAUSE he was born in America. I can't see Yoko being too much in opposition of this either -- in fact, I do not seem to think she IS. She's not happy, sure, but she's also not actively opposing anything.

You're right, this is a very interesting topic, and the opinions herein are fascinating.

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Rooftop Sessions - The Finest In Beatles-Related Fiction. November 2001 Issue up now! About.com BEST OF THE NET, April 2001! www.rooftopsessions.com (http://www.rooftopsessions.com)

"O superb! O Manhattan, my own, my peerless! O strongest you in the hour of danger, in crisis! O truer than steel!" -- Walt Whitman

FiendishThingie

Nov 16, 2001, 08:54 AM

You know, I wasn't going to post anything on this because, of course, it's complete speculation... However, the previous posts have got me thinking.

Today John would be 61 & who knows what he would've seen & experienced in the last 21 years.

I do agree that he would be upset by what happened on Sept 11th. I'm sure it would've hit home even more so, living in Manhattan. I'm sure he would've visited Ground Zero by now. I also believe he would've written a song or two about it, most likely promoting peace.

You know, it was one thing to see it all on television, but Nipper's right! I've been to Ground Zero. I was there 2 weeks after the attacks. It leaves you completely dumbfounded. The debris goes on for blocks. It's SO hard to take in.

Yet there's something so incredible about it. You stand there in silence with people from all over the world, sharing your disbelief & your hopes & prayers for mankind & our world. A man with a food tray runs around to every voluteer offering food. People come together to help & to heal. It's so sad, yet so awesome.

I don't know. It's obviously not something I can put into words. All I know is when I look over the photos I took at Ground Zero, I shudder, yet I'm very proud of us around the world. I think we're going in the right direction in terms of unity & acceptance.

I wonder if John would think the same thing... http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/thinker.gif

FT

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ImaginePeace78

Nov 16, 2001, 01:20 PM

I know this has been said before, but John *would not* have been into Love and Peace with the Sept. 11 attacks. We were *attacked*! Like, Susan said, he would be mad as hell and I think he would probably support the war. This isn't the sixties...
Maybe it's just me, and people do have a right to their opinions, but I really don't like it when people say "Oh, John would against this war...he's a pacifist..." whatever. Not with this one! Too many discussions went on about this (not just here, in other places). People seem to think they know exactly what John would believe. No one knows, we're just giving our own opinions of what he may think about all of this. But, come on, be realistic here, I really don't think he'd be the "peace and love" guy with this. The attacks would draw the line...
-Kristi
P.S. This is not to flame anyone's opinion here, I'm just having a bad day, and I needed to get that out.

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You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." ~John Lennon

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darkhorse

Nov 16, 2001, 05:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>Quote:<HR>Originally Posted By ImaginePeace78:
No one knows, we're just giving our own opinions of what he may think about all of this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's the point. I think speaking about this could really hurt feelings from our north american friends, because they are the ones that have been affected by these terrorist attacks, so I think all of the opinions should be taken properly and with a very calmed spirit. Maybe when all of this is over we will be able to make a retrospective of this war with a more historical perspective. As for now, no one really knows what John could have thought about the war.

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"Peace, remember, peace is how we make it" ~
Ringo Starr, 1971

jtal909

Nov 16, 2001, 09:28 PM

peaceflame

Nov 16, 2001, 10:24 PM

glad u agree with me.

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~~~~~~~
When you see beyond yourself then you will find peace of mind is waiting there

peaceflame

Nov 16, 2001, 10:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>Quote:<HR>Originally Posted By ImaginePeace78:
Maybe it's just me, and people do have a right to their opinions, but I really don't like it when people say "Oh, John would against this war...he's a pacifist..." whatever. Not with this one! Too many discussions went on about this (not just here, in other places). People seem to think they know exactly what John would believe.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

this seems quite hypocrytical of you, because before this, you said "I know this has been said before, but John *would not* have been into Love and Peace with the Sept. 11 attacks. "

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/teeth2.gif

i still stand by my opinion. and i am interested in other people's opinions, wheter they agree or disagree with mine. i am not going to argue my opinion any further
hehe
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/smile2.gif

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~~~~~~~
When you see beyond yourself then you will find peace of mind is waiting there

Lucy in the diamond sky

Nov 17, 2001, 02:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>Quote:<HR>Originally Posted By jtal909:
We need to stop these attacks and their is no negotiations with these people. The only thing they understand is war.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The most wrong thing that I've ever heard!
So many people were killed and arte killed during this war!And you should know that as much painful it was for America the attack so painful is for the Afghans this bombing!
Of course someone would say that positive things had come from this war such as the fall of Talebans which has already started and will free people and especially women from their oppression.But in this case the end doesn't justify the means!!!Can you imagine those children,that pain,the deaths!
if the American government was so powrfull they could have aachieved their end through other ways (diplomacy) or even by throwing their bombs in the right places and not in the hospitals and in the villages and by not killing innocent people

I know you 're american and the only thing Americans want is revenge.Please try to see things with a different point of view.
Tha only thing that wars can do is cause pain and misery.
Lastly i should admitt that my opinion may be wrong but at least I can express it
Of course I am not against Americans.
I am against the war.

I hope this ansewr won't cause any problems
Sophia

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I want you to make love not war~~John Lennon

HMVNipper

Nov 17, 2001, 05:44 AM

Sophia:

You are definitely entitled to your opinion, however, since you are not American, you cannot fully understand what is happening.

Can YOU imagine all the children whose parents went to work on the morning of September 11th and who did not come home? Some of those children were in school within sight of the towers and SAW THEIR PARENTS DIE, and they hadn't done ANYTHING to anyone, they had just gone to work in the morning. Can YOU imagine the thousands of people whose remains will never be found because they were pulverized into dust when the towers fell? Can YOU imagine a wall filled with pictures of people lost in the towers that stretches for SIX CITY BLOCKS or more? Can YOU imagine seeing five different funeral processions in one day as you drive along ONE ROAD on Long Island, and knowing that these are only some of many? (I lost count of how many funerals I witnessed just going about my daily business after a while.)

The United States did NOT "purposely" bomb hospitals or innocent people, regardless of what you might think. We did NOT seek out those targets. It is NEVER our policy to bomb innocents. In war, sometimes things that were not meant to be hit are hit, and that's the way it is. But these people do not understand anything else, and as far as I'm concerned, while you are entitled to your opinions, I do not believe you fully undertstand. I know you aren't Anti-American, I know you are just expressing an opinion, but please try to understand that in this case, I (and most Americans) believe that pacifism is NOT AN OPTION -- we must seek out these cowards and make sure they are justly punished. (And by JUSTLY, I mean we should try them for terrorist crimes -- I do NOT mean they should be executed without due process. Terrorists HAVE gotten fair trials in the United States in the past, and when we capture bin Laden, we must do the same to him.)

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Rooftop Sessions - The Finest In Beatles-Related Fiction. November 2001 Issue up now! About.com BEST OF THE NET, April 2001! www.rooftopsessions.com (http://www.rooftopsessions.com)

"O superb! O Manhattan, my own, my peerless! O strongest you in the hour of danger, in crisis! O truer than steel!" -- Walt Whitman

jtal909

Nov 17, 2001, 06:28 AM

This is one case where the end does justify the means (war). And when this is over, hopefully America will not have bin Laden plotting mass murder, and Afghanistan will be by far better off without repression. This goes way, way beyond revenge. It is about protecting America from this evil.

And by the way, you can blame the Taliban for the hospital casualties by hiding ammunition depots near them, and for themselves cowardly hiding among the very civilians whom they had repressed.

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"Why don't you say it in your famous James Mason impersonation?"

ImaginePeace78

Nov 17, 2001, 09:23 AM

Maybe I did sound a little hypocritical back there (sorry, I'm human, aren't I?). But, come on, would you really want more attacks like the one on Sept. 11th? The only to stop this is with war.
This is a little off-topic, but in my history class, we've learned about some *real* pacifists--people who don't believe any violence of any kind (especially war). They were against WWI (even when the U.S. got involved) and *gasp* WWII! But, sometimes, people change their minds depending on the war. People may have been against WWI, but by the time WWII happened, they weren't a pacifist for that war because they realized what would happen if the Axis won. That's how it was with Helen Keller (I'm writing a paper on her). She was against WWI, but for WWII.
Now, if this whole thing could be solved peacefully (which we know it really can't be) great! But it just won't work this time. Bin Laden wanted/wants to hurt Americans...would you want that to happened again? If John were alive today, he most likely would not want to see his beloved American city crippled anymore. I don't think he'd write (peace) songs, but I'm sure he would've written a song about the attacks.
This is all I'll say about this...because you said you wouldn't change your opinion. But, please, really think about it...
-Kristi

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You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." ~John Lennon

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Tim

Nov 17, 2001, 09:43 AM

I do agree with Sophia,except IMO Northern Alliance is just as bad as Taliban.
I think the following will help stop a lot of the bloodshed:

1. Declare and force upon Isreal if need be,a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

2. Sevely reducing the billions of dollars we give the Isrealis annualy. We are seen as the main suppoert isreal has(which is true) and as encouring Isreali atrocities(for the most part true).

3. Help overthorw the house of Saud. The Saudi monarchy is as repressive as the taliban but condoned because we need the oil.

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Tim
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Lucy in the diamond sky

Nov 17, 2001, 02:00 PM

I won't say anything else because that will cause more arguments which is not the thing that I wanted when I posted this reply.Maybe it was a mistake of mine posting it.
Here almost all of you are Americans.I'm Greek and I cannot change your minds.But I won't change my opinion too.
Sorry for upseting you

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I want you to make love not war~~John Lennon

peaceflame

Nov 17, 2001, 02:21 PM

ahey hey
of course i wouldnt want the attacks to happen again!!! WHO WOULD WANT THAT! i am just sayign that I THINK john would stay out of it mostly. just write songs! ANY KIND OF SONG. and i did say that i think john would probably be intelligent enought to know that war is the only option. and i didnt say he would be an all out pacifist, doing peace marches and everything. i think some people are weaving things in and out of some posts, and not reading what is really there. i beleive NO ONE said that john WOULD WANT to see "his american city crippled"..people were all saying he would be very very very sad!!! Lucy in the Diamond sky asked us what we think he would do, and what i think is this;
I BELEIVE he would stay out of it, and write more songs. (meaning he probably wouldnt do peace marches, or the opposite thing of peace marches, whatever. and he would do what he normaly does, GO ON WITH HIS LIFE which sadly ceased on dec 8, 1980 as everyone knows.)

anyways, i dont feel like arguing anymore SO PLEASE read what is there and dont assume anything.

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~~~~~~~
When you see beyond yourself then you will find peace of mind is waiting there

[This Message Has Been Edited By peaceflame On November 17, 2001 02:24 PM]

Tim

Nov 17, 2001, 02:45 PM

The sad reason you have terrorism to begin with is that you do have so many artificial states and groups within these states that are there due to conquest(such asthe Irish in the UK or the Basques in Spain).
These groups do have legitimate gripes, and in most cases the PTB chose not to hear them.
Nor will the "international community",for varied reason(such as the USA not really wanting to do anything about apartheid as South Africa was the major supplier of chrome and diamond for industry and they feared the ANC would cut off the supplyy).
To sum it up again: The root causes of terrorism is that there are groups that have grievances that those in power will not address. Also,terrorist is in the eye of the beholder,as an 18th-Century Brit may well have considered people such as Sam Adams and George Washington terrorists.

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Tim
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jtal909

Nov 17, 2001, 09:12 PM

While that may be somewhat true, it does not justify the murder of innocent civilans. And that is why there is a war to stop terrorism.

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"Why don't you say it in your famous James Mason impersonation?"

Tim

Nov 17, 2001, 10:35 PM

I'm not condoning 9/11.
I do feel however bin Laden and al-Qaeda are but mere symptoms of the problem.
The only way to end terrorism is to take away their cause.

1. You give them the thing they desire(i.e. for the IRA,reunification of the North with the South,and the Brits out,or break off the provinces of Basque and Catalan from Spain,or create the State of Palestine).
2. You do like what the Turks did to the Armenians in 1915,or the Holocaust,or what the Russians are trying to dso in Chechnya-i.e. kill off the entire population.

There is no middle ground. The only humane option is option #1.

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Tim
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jtal909

Nov 18, 2001, 12:34 AM

If you do that, then you're showing that terrorism works, and it will happen again when needed.

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"Why don't you say it in your famous James Mason impersonation?"

jtal909

Nov 18, 2001, 01:04 PM

If you give them what they desire, you are justifying terrorism.
After 9/11, they get nothing.
They get taken out.

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"Why don't you say it in your famous James Mason impersonation?"

[This Message Has Been Edited By jtal909 On November 18, 2001 01:05 PM]

Tim

Nov 18, 2001, 03:11 PM

Killing them off only makes the problem worse. You make some one desperate,they'll do ANYTHING...

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Tim
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jtal909

Nov 18, 2001, 08:18 PM

That may be, but they must be brought to justice, and not be rewarded for what they have done. If they are desperate then so be it. War is a terrible thing, but at times an unfortunate necessity. this is one of those times.

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"Why don't you say it in your famous James Mason impersonation?"

McCharlenstar

Nov 19, 2001, 01:23 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>Quote:<HR>Originally Posted By jtal909:
This is one case where the end does justify the means (war). And when this is over, hopefully America will not have bin Laden plotting mass murder, and Afghanistan will be by far better off without repression. This goes way, way beyond revenge. It is about protecting America from this evil.

And by the way, you can blame the Taliban for the hospital casualties by hiding ammunition depots near them, and for themselves cowardly hiding among the very civilians whom they had repressed.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WELL SAID!!

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McCharlenstar

Nov 19, 2001, 01:37 AM

I'll bet lucy did'nt expect this BIG"Can of worms" from her question in her post!!! Thanks for your post!

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Lucy in the diamond sky

Nov 19, 2001, 04:37 AM

Of course I didn't but what else could I do?
And as I see two people here are having an argument.Unfortunately

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I want you to make love not war~~John Lennon

Lucy in the diamond sky

Nov 19, 2001, 04:40 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>Quote:<HR>Originally Posted By jtal909:
, hopefully America will not have bin Laden plotting mass murder<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

noone knows if he is really the one responsible.We just assume it.http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif

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I want you to make love not war~~John Lennon

[This Message Has Been Edited By Lucy in the diamond sky On November 19, 2001 04:40 AM]

HMVNipper

Nov 19, 2001, 05:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>Quote:<HR>Originally Posted By Lucy in the diamond sky:
noone knows if he is really the one responsible.We just assume it.http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was planning to stay out of this henceforth...I said my piece earlier.

However, that said, I'd like to say one more thing, because I just don't get it. I'd really LOVE to know what they tell you on the news and in the papers in Greece, Lucy, because it's nearly certain that bin Laden and the Al Qaeda terrorist network ARE responsible for the attacks.

Okay, I'm staying out of it now, you guys can argue amongst yourselves.

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Rooftop Sessions - The Finest In Beatles-Related Fiction. November 2001 Issue up now! About.com BEST OF THE NET, April 2001! www.rooftopsessions.com (http://www.rooftopsessions.com)

"O superb! O Manhattan, my own, my peerless! O strongest you in the hour of danger, in crisis! O truer than steel!" -- Walt Whitman

Tim

Nov 19, 2001, 07:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>Quote:<HR>Originally Posted By Lucy in the diamond sky:
Of course I didn't but what else could I do?
And as I see two people here are having an argument.Unfortunately

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif Don't worry about it,Sophie. http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

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Tim
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jtal909

Nov 19, 2001, 04:22 PM

bearkat77

Nov 22, 2001, 04:12 PM

I have stayed away from this topic because I feared an argument would arise sooner or later. It looks like I was right. Let's stay level-headed about the issues here or I may just close this topic. Besides, never ASSUME - whenyou break this word down, you make an ASS out of U and ME.

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jtal909

Nov 22, 2001, 07:44 PM

I think we have said our pieces. Or should I say peaces.

[This Message Has Been Edited By jtal909 On November 22, 2001 07:45 PM]

Lucy in the diamond sky

Nov 23, 2001, 01:05 PM

You are right
I will never open a topic like this again
I want to apologise for the problems that I've caused.

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I want you to make love not war~~John Lennon

jtal909

Nov 23, 2001, 02:48 PM

Lucy, you did not cause anything so please don't fret.

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"Why don't you say it in your famous James Mason impersonation?"

peaceflame

Nov 25, 2001, 04:45 PM

AWWW lucy please there is no need to apologize! many people have different opinions and different ways of expressing them. i love this topic, mainly because i love john and i love debating. there are differences between debates and arguments, and this is definetly a debate, although i may have called it an argument. (oops, oh well.)
no need to apologize, it is a great topic!!!!!

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~~~~~~~
When you see beyond yourself then you will find peace of mind is waiting there

HMVNipper

Nov 25, 2001, 05:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>Quote:<HR>Originally Posted By Lucy in the diamond sky:
You are right
I will never open a topic like this again
I want to apologise for the problems that I've caused.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sophia, you didn't cause any problems! You opened a lively debate, and that's okay!! NEVER be afraid to say something here -- people might disagree, but all in all I think we were pretty civil to each other, even in this discussion!

We still love you, please don't feel bad!! http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/heart1.gif

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Rooftop Sessions - The Finest In Beatles-Related Fiction. November 2001 Issue up now! About.com BEST OF THE NET, April 2001! www.rooftopsessions.com (http://www.rooftopsessions.com)

"O superb! O Manhattan, my own, my peerless! O strongest you in the hour of danger, in crisis! O truer than steel!" -- Walt Whitman