John The Father and Great Person

Many people, including his ingrateful son Julian, have claimed that John was a horrible father and all that. Now, of course I didn't know him personally, but it seems to me that with John's own dad leaving him when he was very young, therefore having no example as to how to be any father at all, not that this justifys him being a bad father, he deserves much more credit and respect for what he did do, at least he was married to the mothers of his children and he did the best he could, you know he did. He did the best he knew how to and I would have loved to have him for a father.

------------------

[onothimagen]

Julian came into John's life during the height of Beatlemania so John was hardly ever around and then when he WAS home, I'm sure he would want to kick back and relax and you just can't DO that with a child around.

By the time Sean was born, John's life was greatly changed... he was older and wiser and ready to play the 'house-husband' role that he pursue.

I feel sorry for BOTH Julian and Sean. Julian lost his father just when his father could appreciate him and give him back some attention and Sean lost his father when he was very young and never really got to know him.



------------------

[bearkat77]

Welcome to Beatlelinks, HalABee. A very good topic to discuss here.

It's true John never really had a father around, but his Uncle George did what he could at the time. Subconsciously, John probably followed in his father's steps, leaving home for long periods of time and not really getting to know his first son.

It is sad that both sons really didn't get to "know" John, the man, the father, the human.

------------------
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/cat.gif

Bearkat77's Beatlemaniac Page (http://bearkat77.www9.50megs.com)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hey HalfABee, what's the other half of you?? I'm definitely curious.

------------------
25 days

[Tim]

Also remember: John HAD to marry Cynthia because Brian feared a scandal that woulda ruinded the Beatles. After all,illegetimate birth was scandalous in 1963.
Also remember with Sean this was their third attempe at having a baby(2 miscarraiges in 69),and that Yoko almost died during the childbirth.

welcome HalfABee--is your first name Eric? http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif

------------------
Tim http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/churchill.gif
------------
Duchy Of Grand Fenwick

[mindgames]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Tim:
After all,illegetimate birth was scandalous in 1963.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It still is. Isn't it? http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/thinker.gif



------------------
This week, the Beatles greatest hits album, "1", is at number fifty-one on the USA album charts. "Wingspan: Hits and History" by Paul McCartney is at number twelve.

[SleepyHead]

Are you kidding? They don't even ask for the father's name on the birth certificate anymore... they ask if you want the father's name on it!!!

------------------
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/sleep2.gif
In Memory Of Robby (http://inmemoryofrobby.50megs.com)
Our Lady's Psalter (http://ourladyspsalter.50megs.com)
Bearkat77's Beatlemaniac Page (http://bearkat77.www9.50megs.com)
Bearkat77's Tribute to John Lennon (http://bearkatjl.50megs.com)

[jtal909]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Tim:
Also remember: John HAD to marry Cynthia because Brian feared a scandal that woulda ruinded the Beatles. Af
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought John married her because as a Northerner it was traditionaly the "right" thing to do.


------------------

[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Tim:
Also remember: John HAD to marry Cynthia because Brian feared a scandal that woulda ruinded the Beatles. After all,illegetimate birth was scandalous in 1963.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, John didn't HAVE to marry Cyn... his own honourable upbringing by Mimi swayed his decision to ask Cyn to marry him. It was expected to "do the right thing", but then John was never one to "do the right thing" in any other aspect of his life.

Brian was more concerned for the effects a "married" Beatle would have on their adoring public, not necessarily about the possibility of an illegitimate baby running around.



------------------
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/sleep2.gif
In Memory Of Robby (http://inmemoryofrobby.50megs.com)
Our Lady's Psalter (http://ourladyspsalter.50megs.com)
Bearkat77's Beatlemaniac Page (http://bearkat77.www9.50megs.com)
Bearkat77's Tribute to John Lennon (http://bearkatjl.50megs.com)

[old_moon_shining]

Cynthia says in her book on page 73 that when she told John, after a bit of shock, he said, "we'll have to get married". She goes on to say that there was 'no question' in his mind, because of his very conventional upbringing.
John's version of the story is on page 73 of the Anthology, and believe it or not it is more or less the same. I'd say Brian only came into the picture after that point to help John organize.

------------------
"You can learn something from everyone - but from some people you only learn patience."

[mindgames]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SleepyHead:
Are you kidding? They don't even ask for the father's name on the birth certificate anymore... they ask if you want the father's name on it!!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm. http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/thinker.gif That's funny. In White County (where I live) you can be actually fined if you aren't married and have a child.




------------------
This week, the Beatles greatest hits album, "1", is at number fifty-one on the USA album charts. "Wingspan: Hits and History" by Paul McCartney is at number twelve.

[Tim]

Old Moon,
Thanks for making the point about John having to marry Cynthia.
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/sleep1.gif the UK tabloids around then (Daily Mail,Daily Express,Mirror) and the News Of the World were just as much scandal sheets then as now,they would have plastered the story all over the place, I mean,they all(including Weekend and Tid bits magazines) paid Fred Lennon for his story.

------------------
Tim
------------
Duchy Of Grand Fenwick

[bearkat77]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Tim:
I mean,they all(including Weekend and Tid bits magazines) paid Fred Lennon for his story.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/afraid3.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/barf2.gif

------------------
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/cat.gif

Bearkat77's Beatlemaniac Page (http://bearkat77.www9.50megs.com)

[old_moon_shining]

I don't know if this is an appropriate thing to ask, but did John leave Julian any money?

------------------
"You can learn something from everyone - but from some people you only learn patience."

[bearkat77]

Not there's a touchy subject. I think he might have wanted to, but I believe Yoko was the sole beneficiary.

------------------
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/cat.gif

Bearkat77's Beatlemaniac Page (http://bearkat77.www9.50megs.com)

[Tim]

I beleive Julian did,but it took a few years for him to get it.

------------------
Tim
------------
Duchy Of Grand Fenwick

[jtal909]

I think Yoko controls what Julian gets. What a kick in the pants for Julian.

------------------

[lucyintheskywithdiamonds]

I think it's nice to know that after all that Sean got and Julian didn't get that Julian doesn't hold anything against Sean.

------------------
As breathing is my life to stop I dare not dare.

[old_moon_shining]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By HalfABee:
Many people, including his ingrateful son Julian, have claimed that John was a horrible father and all that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This post seems to be the one and only by this person. I must have missed something. What is Julian supposed to have said?



------------------
"All men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and continue on as if nothing had happened" - Winston Churchill.

[HeyBeatle]

I think it was on 20/20 or something like that. Cause after Julian was on the show, which my mom watched, she went on about how horrible John was. I had to give her all the sides of the story to give her a little perspective so she would stop hating John. I have no idea exactly what he said though, from what I remember though he hadn't said 'Damn you Dad' or some derivitive of that but through telling his story it came off as that he hated his father. In many other interviews though it doesn't sound like he hates his dad, it just sounds like he's a bit bitter which is completely understandable.

------------------
" Are you a mod or a rocker?"
" No I'm a mocker."

"I'm not dead yet."

"What's brown and sounds like a bell?"
"Dunnng"

[beatlebangs1964]

It is sad to see that Julian harbors animosity towards Yoko. In a recent interview I saw on VH-1, Julian said that Yoko "raped and pillaged the Lennon family" and "what more does she want? She has everything." Although I don't agree with Julian, I do feel bad for him.

On the plus side, Julian harbors no such resentment towards Sean today, although he did say that he resented the fact that John was able to take off 5 years to raise Sean.

The times the boys were born (12 years apart) were so different and the types of decisions John had to make were so different. Most parents work. Had John not launched a successful career, there would have been no Beatles. Chances are he and Cynthia would have eventually parted.

Julian was born at the start/rise of Beatlemania. John was very young and the person he was then was not the person he was a decade later. He had to work and make decisions within the framework of the times. In fairness, one has to say, "If I were in the decision making position, what choices would I make?" Julian's sense of loss is understandable, but I wish he would make peace with his past and at least try to look at it from an even handed standpoint. Decision making and the times.

When Sean was born more than a decade after the Beatles' heyday, John was a very different person. He was in a very different position and he was able to provide Sean with a strong paternal influence and input. Due to the diffence in the boys' ages and John's professional/artistic position as well as other factors, there really is no fair way to compare. It is just that people, all people have to use the tools they have and cope as best they can in the times they are living in.

When Julian was born, John was just getting established in a musical career. Some ten years later when Sean was born, John was already permanently established and he had matured considerably in that decade.

------------------
Then we will remember things we said today. Yeah.
-- Beatles, 1964

BB1964

[beatlebangs1964]

An interesting addendum -- my mother said almost the same thing as I did in my post above.

I saw her recently and asked if she'd be interested in watching the Julian interview as my VCR ain't working. To her credit, she always liked John and was fair about seeing Julian as well as John's side and Yoko's as well.

As for Yoko, my mother said that Yoko was a good influence on John and she also feels that Yoko helped John to be a good father to Sean and also to Julian. I hadn't thought of it quite that way, but I think that is true. That is a good, valid point.

She said that even if John worked in an office ("That would have been out of the question for John! His personality, artistic bent and temperament would not have made that possible! Lucky for John he had a myriad of creative outlets."), Julian would still have had a parent who worked. I am glad that she was able to see the fairness of the above statements and I am even gladder that she felt Julian and John both suffered losses and that Julian, at least is young and still alive and has more than a good chance of making peace within his own life.

Back to John. A retired special education teacher, my mother said that the boy John fit the classic profile of an ADD/ADHD right brained learner. I read about right brained learners and I think John was in that category. A coworker recently said that in today's world, John would undoubtedly be described as ADD/ADHD. Something to think about...

In the "Compleat Beatles" video, one of John's high school detention sheets are displayed. In 1955-56, the then 15-year-old was written up for having thrown a blackboard out of a window. John was also praised for his verbal skills and artistic accomplishments. Musical from an early age, John also translated his world of sound into form. He painted and drew and created vivid word pictures in his speech.

Any account of young John Lennon show a highly verbal, brilliant and active boy who was capable of getting up to serious mischief. My mother said she has taught many "Johns" and those "Johns" were often gifted and showed a flair for artistry.


------------------
Then we will remember things we said today. Yeah.
-- Beatles, 1964

BB1964

[This Message Has Been Edited By beatlebangs1964 On July 11, 2001 08:53 AM]

[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By old_moon_shining:
Cynthia says in her book on page 73 that when she told John, after a bit of shock, he said, "we'll have to get married". She goes on to say that there was 'no question' in his mind, because of his very conventional upbringing.
John's version of the story is on page 73 of the Anthology, and believe it or not it is more or less the same. I'd say Brian only came into the picture after that point to help John organize.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Exactly. John wasn't as much interested in the fine points of the law as he was in doing the right thing, and Brian's only contribution was his desire to keep it all hush-hush.


------------------
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/sleep2.gif
In Memory Of Robby (http://inmemoryofrobby.50megs.com)
Our Lady's Psalter (http://ourladyspsalter.50megs.com)
Bearkat77's Beatlemaniac Page (http://bearkat77.www9.50megs.com)
Bearkat77's Tribute to John Lennon (http://bearkatjl.50megs.com)
Bearkat77's Tribute to Ringo Starr (http://bearkatrs.50megs.com)

[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Tim:
Old Moon,
Thanks for making the point about John having to marry Cynthia.
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/sleep1.gif the UK tabloids around then (Daily Mail,Daily Express,Mirror) and the News Of the World were just as much scandal sheets then as now,they would have plastered the story all over the place, I mean,they all(including Weekend and Tid bits magazines) paid Fred Lennon for his story.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know they paid him, Tim, that was never in question...



------------------
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/sleep2.gif
In Memory Of Robby (http://inmemoryofrobby.50megs.com)
Our Lady's Psalter (http://ourladyspsalter.50megs.com)
Bearkat77's Beatlemaniac Page (http://bearkat77.www9.50megs.com)
Bearkat77's Tribute to John Lennon (http://bearkatjl.50megs.com)
Bearkat77's Tribute to Ringo Starr (http://bearkatrs.50megs.com)

[SF4-EVER]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By beatlebangs1964:

Back to John. A retired special education teacher, my mother said that the boy John fit the classic profile of an ADD/ADHD right brained learner. I read about right brained learners and I think John was in that category. A coworker recently said that in today's world, John would undoubtedly be described as ADD/ADHD. Something to think about...

In the "Compleat Beatles" video, one of John's high school detention sheets are displayed. In 1955-56, the then 15-year-old was written up for having thrown a blackboard out of a window. John was also praised for his verbal skills and artistic accomplishments. Musical from an early age, John also translated his world of sound into form. He painted and drew and created vivid word pictures in his speech.

Any account of young John Lennon show a highly verbal, brilliant and active boy who was capable of getting up to serious mischief. My mother said she has taught many "Johns" and those "Johns" were often gifted and showed a flair for artistry.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very interesting, BB1964. Yes, I agree with you that John may have had ADD/ADHD. After reading his writings, I thought that it would have been hard for him to write a full-length story (as opposed to his short ones) because it seemed like he could only write in bursts. I wish I'd known about that earlier, when I was writing about John's clone in "To Thine Own Self Be True;" I might have written it a little differently.

------------------
Author of "Move Over Ms. L." and the sequel "To Thine Own Self Be True,"
hosted at www.rooftopsessions.com (http://www.rooftopsessions.com)

[Tim]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SleepyHead:
I know they paid him, Tim, that was never in question...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said it was...
My point was the British tabloids were just as sleazy then as they are now.

------------------
Tim
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/churchill.gif
Tim Brent's Yellow Submarine Page (http://www.geocities.com/timbrent.geo)
The Beatles' Record Advertisements (http://members.tripod.co.uk/seltaeb)
The Beatles' Record Covers Yahoo! Club (http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/beatlesrecordcovers)

[SleepyHead]

I think the American tabloids are an ultra sleazy collection, too...

------------------
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/sleep2.gif
In Memory Of Robby (http://inmemoryofrobby.50megs.com)
Our Lady's Psalter (http://ourladyspsalter.50megs.com)
Bearkat77's Beatlemaniac Page (http://bearkat77.www9.50megs.com)
Bearkat77's Tribute to John Lennon (http://bearkatjl.50megs.com)
Bearkat77's Tribute to Ringo Starr (http://bearkatrs.50megs.com)