Dhani at anti-war rally?

[Sally]

Hiya

Somebody told me that Dhani and Olivia and the McCartney kids are going to march at the Anti-War rally in London on Saturday against the war on Iraq but I haven't seen anything in the papers or anywhere.

Has anybody else heard this or is it just rumour, I am going on the march myself and would love to know if it is true.

[Lucy]

I know that HEAPS of people are going be there so that wouldn't suprise me at all. Make sure you take care Sally....I think there might be a few crowd control issues and I'm sure some participants will get a little out of hand.

Of course I am at work on Saturday so no protest/Beatle-Baby spotting for me! images/icons/frown.gif

[Sally]

I will take care promise, if it starts to look heated I will come home as I will have my son with me anyway. I don't think it will be as there is too much of a cross section of people going because most of the country feels the same.

I don't like Hussein anymore than anyone else but I am so against violence I just think we need more peaceful tactics, not mass slaughter.

Give Me Love, Give Me Peace On Earth.

If I see any Beatle babies I will give them your love.

[smilie]

Originally Posted By Sally:
I don't like Hussein anymore than anyone else but I am so against violence I just think we need more peaceful tactics, not mass slaughter.

<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Right ! graemlins/thumbsup1.gif

[Harbidge]

Last time the rally was banned because of "a breach in safety". i.e. the grass was wet and they didn't want people slipping and hurting themselves.

There's freedom of speech for you.

Funny really. Bush AND Blair have loads of weapons of mass destructions - yet nobody has asked THEM to disarm for the sake of peace.

[HariScruff_00]

Originally Posted By Harbidge:
Funny really. Bush AND Blair have loads of weapons of mass destructions - yet nobody has asked THEM to disarm for the sake of peace.<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">As if that's the only hypocracy going on with this whole thing!
I'm planning on attending a local Anti-war rally this Saturday where I'll be wishing that I were in London attending a real rally...

Random thoughts..
It would be nice to see some respected persons (in the entertainment biz or anywhere) using their voices to protest.
So far the best quip i've seen is from Shakira (for whatever that's worth), in Rolling Stone Mag, she said: "Our leaders are lacking love and love is lacking leaders". Simple but sadly true. Where are love's leaders? Where is a Lennon when you need him? images/icons/frown.gif *

graemlins/peace.gif

[Maggie Mae]

Originally Posted By HariScruff_00:
Where is a Lennon when you need him? images/icons/frown.gif *

graemlins/peace.gif <font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">You know what? That's a damn good question!

I'm planning on attending the anti-war rally here in Edmonton on Saturday too... don't be discouraged, HariScruff, because you won't be in London - any rally is a real rally if you ask me!

[beatlewho01-02]

My dad is gonna march in one Saturday that will go to Sacramento. I might march but I don't know.
I wonder if there's gonna be any celebrities at my march.

[MissusLennon]

I'm going to the one here (saskatoon) this Saturday too. Won't be any celebs though, as there are none here *pout*

[FPSHOT]

Originally Posted By Harbidge:
Funny really. Bush AND Blair have loads of weapons of mass destructions - yet nobody has asked THEM to disarm for the sake of peace.<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Well said.

"Oil" and "Power" are the key words.

So much fear for terrorism again in Europe, USA; what if these two would have stayed silent?

[Harbidge]

Isn't it convenient that the day that there's anti-war rallies all across the world, a Muslin (carrying a a copy of the Quran) was caught carrying a live hand grenade through customs.

Funny how the other airport (Veneuslasia or however you spell it) didn't see it when the bag went through customs there.

Perhaps he said it was a novelty paper weight?

I think it may be a setup to try and turn people into pro-war. It's just too much of a coincidence for me.

[Savoy Truffle]

Originally posted by FPSHOT:
"Oil" and "Power" are the key words.
<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Scary, but very true I think! It's 'funny' how it all boils down to control.

If only these leaders had the courage to admit this even to themselves.

[Lucy]

Originally Posted By Sally:
If I see any Beatle babies I will give them your love.<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Awwwwwwww thanks Sally!!

[alicizmar]

Originally Posted By HariScruff_00:
Where is a Lennon when you need him? images/icons/frown.gif <font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">U got a GOOD point there Hariscruff! graemlins/thumbsup2.gif
alicizmar

[ Feb 14, 2003, 03:48 PM: Message Edited By: alicizmar ]

[misslennon_909]

WE are Lennon now! Let's do it, you guys! (Although it would be decidedly easier if he were here to help us.)

I think America has a problem with putting ourselves in other people's business. "Oh, we've got to 'help' Vietnam." "Oh, now we have to 'help' Iraq." It'd be better if the US would concentrate on the problems we already have before we try to fix anyone else's!

[HariScruff_00]

Originally Posted By misslennon_909:
It'd be better if the US would concentrate on the problems we already have before we try to fix anyone else's!<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">But we are trying to fix our problems here-
our Oil 'problems' (sic)...

[donnamariemoreno27]

Our rally here in Los Angeles is tomorrow afternoon-you usually see Martin Sheen among the protesters, and he get's very VOCAL so he ends up getting arrested. But for him it's all in a day's work...

[HariScruff_00]

Originally Posted By Harbidge:
I think it may be a setup to try and turn people into pro-war. It's just too much of a coincidence for me.<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">I can't imagine how many stories have been twisted and fixed before being fed through the news wires.
It would be nice to think that people are capable of keeping there minds open at least enough to know that much of what they hear is propaganda, and to not take everything reported by Fox News (for example) at face value.

My immediate family is even split on the issue, my sister and father are all gung-ho pro-war, while my mother and i are very much against it. I keep trying to say little subtle things to my father, things that i know will make him think about what's really going on here. i figure that's a better tactic than just yelling at him and calling him a war-monger. graemlins/images/icons/mad.gif

~Peace~

[BrazilianFlag]

Originally Posted By misslennon_909:
WE are Lennon now! Let's do it, you guys! (Although it would be decidedly easier if he were here to help us.)

I think America has a problem with putting ourselves in other people's business. "Oh, we've got to 'help' Vietnam." "Oh, now we have to 'help' Iraq." It'd be better if the US would concentrate on the problems we already have before we try to fix anyone else's!<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">There, you said it all.
John'll be somehow with us all today - you don't really think he'd miss the chance, now, do ya? images/icons/wink.gif

NO BLOOD FOR OIL
GIVE PEACE A CHANCE - ALL TOGETHER NOW.

[donnamariemoreno27]

Well just got back from our anti-war march/rally here in Los Angeles...it turned out very WELL!!!
They're saying approx 150,000 people showed up. I know it's nothing compared to say London or NY, but for LA-this is EXCELLENT!!! But I will have to check the news later on tonight to get the EXACT count. Alot of celebrities showed up too...Martin Sheen (of course)" I say we vote for him for President" most of the cast of WEST WING.

Actress Tyne Daly, director/activist Rob Reiner and Vet Ronnie Kovic (Born on the 4th of July)...

All n' all, it was a very SUCESSFUL march! graemlins/thumbsup2.gif graemlins/thumbsup2.gif graemlins/thumbsup2.gif

[Inner Groover]

Though i hate war like the next man/woman i wonder what peoples opinions will be if at a future date it is proven that Saddam has supplied terrorist groups with chemical/biological weapons.Groups who hate America and her allies and are prepared to die for their cause.Remember Iraq has ignored UN resolutions for 12 yes 12 years demanding the declaration and destruction of these evil weapons.If Washington or London is attacked by radioactive dirty bombs/chemical/biological weapons then the public will be unable to march in their streets in protest.Remember low grade radioactive material can remain toxic for well over 100 years !!

[Maggie Mae]

This is a bit old, but it's still a good article. Don't know if it's been posted yet...

Back to Iraq: Pop culture goes to war over peace (http://www.msnbc.com/news/845364.asp)

**********

Dec. 12 — Popular culture has already begun its response to the prospect of war with Iraq in ways less ideologically cut and dried than during the Vietnam war, or even the 1991 Persian Gulf war. As the U.S. government ramps up for possible conflict, musicians and other creatives have staked out different positions on the looming war, some of those positions at odds with the arts’ historically pacifist sensibilities.

IN THE WAKE of the terrorist atacks on Sept. 11, 2001, there was a flurry of new material released. Bruce Springsteen’s album “The Rising” was a direct emotional response to Sept. 11. Songs like “Let’s Roll” by Neil Young, “Freedom” by Paul McCartney, and “Courtesy of the Red, White & Blue (The Angry American)” by Toby Keith were reflective of the national rush to the colors.

In a reflection of the less geographically defined nature of the war against terrorism, there’s opposition to the proposed war against Iraq, and equally vocal support for war against the other, hazier, untraceable enemy. The sense of ubiquitous danger has led to a growing willingness among artists to break with the traditional leftist reflexes, tack to the right politically, or engage in pre-emptive censorship on their own:

Steve Earle, the alt-country singer-songwriter, was recently the target of conservative protests with the release of “John Walker’s Blues,” a song Earle wrote from the perspective of John Walker Lindh, the 21-year-old American serving 20 years in prison for aiding the Taliban. The song was almost immediately branded unpatriotic. Steve Gill, a conservative Nashville talk-show host, pilloried Earle, comparing him to Jane Fonda in her “Hanoi Jane” phase, The Washington Post reported in July.

The Strokes, the hot young New York-based rock band, pulled the song “New York City Cops” from their debut album before its release last fall (but not from the accompanying DVD). The song contains the chorus “New York City cops, they ain’t too smart.”

“The band ... feels after witnessing the valiant response of the [NYPD] during last week’s tragedy, that timing was wrong to release it during these highly sensitive times,” a statement from the band’s publicist said. Other musicians who altered their work after Sept. 11 include Bush, the Cranberries, Sheryl Crow and Dave Matthews.

Clear Channel Communications Inc. the nation’s largest radio conglomerate, with more than 1,200 stations, denied allegations that it urged programmers to remove songs from their playlists in the wake of Sept. 11’s attacks, songs from the overtly political (John Lennon’s “Imagine,” Talking Heads’ “Burning Down the House,” or U2’s “Sunday Bloody Sunday”) to the unintentionally painful (Steve Miller’s version of “Jet Airliner.”) to the seemingly innocent (Louis Armstrong’s take of “What a Wonderful World”).

Last November, musician-poet Michael Franti and his group, Spearhead, were invited to perform on CBS’s “The Late Late Show With Craig Kilborn.” and played a new Franti song, “Bomb Da World.” But the chorus — “You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can’t bomb it into peace” — apparently gave the show’s producers pause.

“We performed two songs during a live taping,” Franti told Toronto music journalist Tim Perlich. “One of them was ‘Bomb Da World,’ and it got a standing ovation from the studio audience. But when the show was broadcast, they didn’t air that song. They told me they could only use one song and they’d probably air the other at some later date.” Franti said. The clip was broadcast later, after an unflattering story in Billboard magazine.

NBC’s celebrated White House series, “The West Wing,” has taken a hit in the ratings. The show’s Nielsen numbers are down 23 percent from last season, despite winning a third consecutive Emmy for best drama. Some have said the decline stems from audiences tiring of the show’s leftist political bent — in an era when a conservative president enjoys uncommonly high approval ratings. One columnist suggests that a regime change might be in order for the “West Wing” administration.

For Stephen Amidon, it reflects a time-related shift in attitudes.

“There was a period right after 9-11 when people were stunned and couldn’t deal with it. The executives at the studios were very leery of anything that reminded people of what happened,” said Amidon, author of several well-received novels, including “The Primitive” and “The New City,” which hinge on the dislocations and uncertainties of sudden social change. “Now, what’s happened since the Christmas after 9-11 seems to be an about face. As a writer, I started getting a sense that the studios wanted to tackle it head-on: all the stuff about al-Qaida and assassinations. It’s turned around completely.

“There’s an almost insatiable appetite among consumers to deal with it — the caveat being that Americans [be] cast as patriotic. I still think that where you’ll run into trouble as a writer is something that questions the war on terrorism. I don’t perceive much of an appetite for that.”

“The war against Iraq probably won’t inspire much creatively,” said Amidon, 43. “It’s likely to be a open-and-shut thing. Writers aren’t so much interested in the slam-dunk against Iraq. It’s the different, more nuanced war that’s going on against al-Qaida” likely to elicit greater creative response, he said.

“With the the war against al-Qaida, there’s a great deal of anxiety about how the danger isn’t somebody with a mustache on the other side of the world, it’s people right here in the United States ...

“And anxiety creates interesting art.”

His own interesting art includes “London Station,” a miniseries being developed by Columbia Pictures for the A&E cable network. The drama is about life at a CIA station in London, its operatives trying to penetrate a cell of al-Qaida. “It’s not greenlit, but it’s in development,” Amidon said.

Life derailed art: “We had done the original screenplay, and it was turned into A&E a week before Sept. 11,” he said. “We had to go back and redo the whole thing.”

Amidon thinks any new Gulf conflict could lead to popular artistic associations with other U.S. wars, but not enough to light a fire of activism.

“The analogy people will make is with Vietnam — not the outcome of the war, but the response to the war,” he said. “The question is, is there a Norman Mailer out there among my generation? Are there people who’ll speak against the war? Right now, I don’t see that there’s a generation of people getting ready to step up to the barricades.”

But there are outlets for leftist sentiment:

More than 100 celebrities, including Kim Basinger, Matt Damon, Ethan Hawke, Samuel L. Jackson, Jessica Lange, Tim Robbins and Martin Sheen urged Bush to avoid war with Iraq in a letter released Tuesday. The letter endorsed efforts to disarm Saddam and urged that the U.N. weapons inspection program be given time to work, while rejectingt the idea that “our country, alone, has the right to launch first-strike attacks.”

On the Peace Not War Web site, a compilation of new anti-war music from a diverse group of musicians united in opposition to war with Iraq was released Monday. The collection of songs by such artists as Ani DiFranco, Public Enemy, Chumbawamba, Billy Bragg and Massive Attack seeks to raise funds for anti-war organizations worldwide.

Singer-songwriter Stephan Smith, in a gloss on the Woody Guthrie era of populism, has released “The Bell,” an anti-war song he performed and recorded with folk singer-activist icon Pete Seeger, Dean Ween, leader of the rock band Ween; and singer Mary Harris. Smith enhanced the accompanying video with footage of peace vigils in New York in the weeks after 9-11, as well as with images of other anti-war demonstrations from around the world.

And at a rousing October concert in Berlin, Springsteen reiterated his appeals against war in the Gulf. “I wrote this song about the Vietnam War,” Springsteen said as he introduced “Born in the U.S.A.,” his 1984 anthem. “I want to do it for you tonight for peace.” It was a sound populist rebuff to the policies of President Bush, then clashing with German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder over American “adventures” in Iraq.

After Vietnam, U.S. veterans came home as pariahs, vilified for participation in that war. Today, though, the desire to negotiate trickier territory — how to support the soldiers without supporting what the soldiers are sent to do — is one of many gray areas that reinforce how it’s possible for pro-war lion to lie down with anti-war lamb.

“I’m on the left and I’m writing a show about the CIA!” Amidon said with mock incredulity. “But I don’t see myself as being opposed to this monstrous, monolithic thing, like I probably would have 30 years ago. Post-Sept. 11, the old firewall between left and right isn’t a firewall anymore. It’s more like a hedge.”

-Michael E. Ross; Reuters

**********

Some good points are raised, but it's pretty clear from the events of today that there are people willing to "step up to the barricades". I thought it was nice to see that so many popular actors and other artists are against this war too.

[HariScruff_00]

Thanks for the article Maggie.

One part that i'd like to comment on, or at least use it to ask a question to those who were remember the Vietnam era first hand:

“The question is, is there a Norman Mailer out there among my generation? Are there people who’ll speak against the war? Right now, I don’t see that there’s a generation of people getting ready to step up to the barricades.”

Right now he doesn't see it- but, and here's my question, did people "see it" in the 60's generation when it was only about 1964 or 1965? Certainly Lennon, for example, was not yet seen as an important anti-war voice during those years. and the Vietnam war had *actually started* by that time! Technically this war hasn't even begun and there's already mass opposition- was there mass opposition (or any opposition) in '62 or '63?? granted, this is a much different time, people back then had yet to learn the lessons of the Vietnam War (although the actions of our time seem to prove that some people STILL missed those lessons graemlins/images/icons/rolleyes.gif *) so they at least then people had a excuse to wait a few years before major protesting.

As for artistic protests, I for one would be surprised if there aren't any in the next few months/years. but we'll just have to wait and see won't we? as usual, only time will reveal.

Are we due another Lennon?

((BTW, thanks for letting me rant))

[Legs]

I had posted something here, but edited it. I'm against the war and agree with everything that has been said. They should give the weapon inspectors at least more time.
I never feared Irac so much, yes I think Hussein should make way, but the U.S. is only spreading more fear this way and just pushing for war.

[ Feb 16, 2003, 02:24 AM: Message Edited By: Legs ]

[kwazychild]

I'm 18 years old, a freshman in college in the US, and I definitely see a generation of college students ready to step up to the barricades and protest any violent action in Iraq, and most violent action against Al Quaeda. I think there is a difference between my generation and the protest generation of the '60s, in that my generation is slightly less idealistic and slightly more jaded. However, if they start seeing that they actually can make a difference (as yesterday's protests may show them), I think that they'll be even more willing to step up and show that they're not having this war, or indeed any war at all.

[kc]

Originally Posted By misslennon_909:

I think America has a problem with putting ourselves in other people's business. "Oh, we've got to 'help' Vietnam." "Oh, now we have to 'help' Iraq." It'd be better if the US would concentrate on the problems we already have before we try to fix anyone else's!<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Well said, misslennon_909! I could not have put it better!

[PaulsPrincess]

Originally Posted By Sally:

I don't like Hussein anymore than anyone else but I am so against violence I just think we need more peaceful tactics, not mass slaughter.

Give Me Love, Give Me Peace On Earth.

<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Here Here Sally! graemlins/thumbsup2.gif
There were huge peace rallies here in Southern California on Saturday and I was hoping to make it to one of the closer ones but unfortunately it didn't work out. I did vote for Peace though on www.votenowar.org (http://www.votenowar.org) It's an awesome website, if you haven't checked it out, I highly recommend that you do.
There were huge turnouts all over the world protesting this war. Let's hope it made some sort of positive effect on our leaders' decision making.
Imagine peace folks... let's give it a chance! graemlins/peace.gif

[PaulsPrincess]

Originally Posted By Harbidge:

Bush AND Blair have loads of weapons of mass destructions - yet nobody has asked THEM to disarm for the sake of peace.<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Right on Harb! graemlins/thumbsup1.gif
Oh... the hypocracy... why don't they practice what they preach 'eh?

[HariScruff_00]

I was considering making a new topic for this but then decided that it would be more appropriate here. I was looking for sports news but since i'm easily sidetracked i came across this (Beatle/antiwar material):

Title: "Again, 'Give peace a chance'"
http://www.detnews.com/2003/nation/0302/16/d01-85990.htm
near the end of the article it says:
The crowd shouted, "Not in our name!" as Rowe led an anti-war chant.

As "Give Peace a Chance" played, the Beatles anthem to the 1960s peace movement stirred Belleville resident Pat Thornburg, 55.

"I was too quiet before," said Thornburg, a first-time protester and assistant nursing professor at Wayne State University. "I don't believe in 'an eye for an eye,' and we haven't given peace a chance."

Beatles' anthem or John's anthem? (not that it matters- i'm just getting technical). I think John would've been very proud to know that these songs would still stir This kind of emotion even 3 decades later. but maybe a bit saddened that there would still be a need for such songs and anthems.

[Sally]

I went to the march in London and it brilliant, 2 million people and a great atmosphere, didn't get anywhere near the speaches which is a shame, heard all the speakers were great. Dhani was seen with friends apparently as was Stella McCartney but not Olivia and I read in the paper yesterday that Yoko gave a small speach on behalf of her and John but it wasn't clear if it was here or New York, I think here.

They will still steam ahead though and drag us into war, there is no link between the terrorist and Iraq which means they are going to put us in even more danger of terrorists because an attack on an Islamic country will rile them up even more. They put tanks and stuff in our airports and it is all propaganda to get us on their side, they made several arrests but they have all been released apart from the guy at Gatwick.

I love everyone but who the hell does Bush think he is pushing his way on the world, America no doubt is great place but it doesn't mean we all want to live the "american dream", I certainly don't and we are already being taken over by Starbucks, McDonalds and Disney, I want to be English and proud not another American state which I am sure Blair wants us to be, no offence to you guys but I am English and want to stay that way.

All we are saying is give peace a chance.

[donnamariemoreno27]

NON TAKEN!!! graemlins/peace.gif

[HariScruff_00]

Originally Posted By Sally:
it doesn't mean we all want to live the "american dream", I certainly don't and we are already being taken over by Starbucks, McDonalds and Disney<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Exactly- and I can only assume that the people of Iraq feel even stronger about that!

[beatlebangs1964]

Sally,

If I wasn't a teetotaller, I'd raise my glass to you! Cheers!

On February 15, 2003 I marched in my city. I agree with you about how desperately peaceful tactics are needed, now more than ever.

[Cherub]

I agree with Inner-Groove. I also do not think that John would have been against the stance of the US, Britain, and their allies. Remember, he was a baby of WWII.

[ Feb 20, 2003, 08:34 PM: Message Edited By: Cherub ]

[SF4-EVER]

Welcome to Beatlelinks, Cherub! graemlins/wave2.gif

[HariScruff_00]

baby of WWII... but wasn't he also a bit of a pacifist? I recall that he wrote a song called Give Peace a Chance, or was that McCartney/Lennon? images/icons/smile.gif

[Beatleboydave]

Originally Posted By PaulsPrincess:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Originally Posted By Harbidge:

Bush AND Blair have loads of weapons of mass destructions - yet nobody has asked THEM to disarm for the sake of peace.<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Right on Harb! graemlins/thumbsup1.gif
Oh... the hypocracy... why don't they practice what they preach 'eh?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">THERE IS A TIME FOR WAR AND A TIME FOR PEACE

I am new to this site and forum effective today 2/21/03. My response is not necessarily to PaulsPrincess but to many postings I've read thus far. Inasmuch as I would love peace to encompass the earth and to all of us the ability to live in harmony, that thinking is hardly realistic. The vast majority of postings seem to suggest (reading between the lines) we can find peace by looking inward and denying the threat that surrounds us. Unfortunately world peace is not in the hearts and minds of the likes of a Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden. A dictator mentality and world domination is what they desire. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this. We may not understand it but we can't deny it.
At the risk of writing a book and losing the reader, let me sum it up like this. We do preventive maintainance on our cars to avoid costly problems (or disasters) in the future. We lash out at cancer with the latest in technology so that the body might live. Likewise we must stop the small (for now) aggressor lest we are overcome by force and lose any and all freedoms we enjoy today.
Truly, we desire peace and love, but unless we are willing to fight for it and through strength maintain it then we will lose it. Let history be our teacher and guide.
Not an exact quote perhaps but, 'All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing'!

I would gladly entertain more discussion on this matter.

[PaulsPrincess]

Welcome to Beatlelinks Beatleboydave! graemlins/wave2.gif

While I think you've made a valid point I believe your words can also support a pacifist view "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing!" So true! We must support peace and do so wholeheartedly. Simply saying it isn't enough, we must take a stand; as the saying goes "actions speak louder than words".
I understand some of the reasoning behind wanting to "fight for peace", I simply haven't seen enough evidence for justifing war (I'm sure I've just opened a can of worms with that statement graemlins/wink3.gif ). A majority of our world's nations are against the U.S. going to war, half of the U.S. is against us going to war and yet it seems as though our nation's leaders are choosing to ignore that majority. I realize that unfortunately in today's society the world living in peace and love isn't realistic, but that is exactly why we must strive for peace. Let's change our society and make it possible. Good men, let's no longer do nothing, let's do something positive, let's change (or at least try to change) our world for the better, so that our children's children can have a chance at living in a world of love instead of fear and hate.

All we are saying, is "give peace a chance" graemlins/peace.gif

*whew* okay I'll give someone else a turn on the soapbox graemlins/wink3.gif

[motherTheresa]

Originally Posted By PaulsPrincess:
Let's change our society and make it possible. Good men, let's no longer do nothing, let's do something positive, let's change (or at least try to change) our world for the better, so that our children's children can have a chance at living in a world of love instead of fear and hate.

All we are saying, is "give peace a chance" graemlins/peace.gif

*whew* okay I'll give someone else a turn on the soapbox graemlins/wink3.gif <font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">allright, i'll take my turn on the soapbox.
starting with "let's change our society." do you
mean American society? and what needs to be
changed? i can remember images of what happened
on 9/11..and it breaks my heart! imagining the last
moments of those people who died-i wonder-were
they screaming? begging God to live? wetting
themselves in terror? or at the World Trade
Towers where people jumped to their deaths rather
than be burned alive! it is the most HORRENDOUS
thing i have witnessed in my life. and what
was behind this horror? fundamentalist religious
fanatics who HATE the United States! did you see
them dancing in the streets when it happened?
they were rejoicing! they DO NOT THINK LIKE WE DO!
you cannot spout platitudes like "Give Peace A
Chance" at these people! so people are marching in
peace rallies, okay it is their right. so where
is Al Qaeda? marching for peace are they? i kinda
doubt it...got that HOLY WAR thing going! i doubt
that they've heard of John Lennon's song-not their
cup of tea, you know. it is not enough that peace-
ful people want peace. it's the MONSTERS we have
to worry about. and they're still out there,
plotting, scheming, wanting us dead!

[Savoy Truffle]

Originally posted by mothertheresa:
allright, i'll take my turn on the soapbox.
starting with "let's change our society." do you
mean American society? and what needs to be
changed? i can remember images of what happened
on 9/11..and it breaks my heart! imagining the lastmoments of those people who died-i wonder-werethey screaming? begging God to live? wetting
themselves in terror? or at the World Trade
Towers where people jumped to their deaths rather
than be burned alive! it is the most HORRENDOUS
thing i have witnessed in my life. and what
was behind this horror? fundamentalist religious
fanatics who HATE the United States! did you see
them dancing in the streets when it happened?
they were rejoicing! they DO NOT THINK LIKE WE DO!you cannot spout platitudes like "Give Peace A Chance" at these people! so people are marching inpeace rallies, okay it is their right. so whereis Al Qaeda? marching for peace are they? i kindadoubt it...got that HOLY WAR thing going! i doubt that they've heard of John Lennon's song-not theircup of tea, you know. it is not enough that peace-ful people want peace. it's the MONSTERS we haveto worry about. and they're still out there, plotting, scheming, wanting us dead <font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Everything said here is so true! One of the key things is that "THEY DO NOT THINK LIKE US". That is what's so scary. When those terrorists crashed into the world trade center it was something they had been training for their whole lives. And done with total religious fervor and committment. Giving them platitudes and showing them peaceful ways just won't work. It's not in their way of thinking.

Declaring war on Iraq may not be the answer either, but something has to be done.

[ Feb 22, 2003, 10:49 PM: Message Edited By: Savoy Truffle ]

[Clark Kent]

I agree with people marching if it's what they believe in. I am no great fan of the USA's foreign policy but I'm against marchers saying that the march isn't anti-American when they are clearly spreading around anti-American rhetoric. I was very disappointed at the flag-burning and the waving of the hammer and sickle, Palestinian flags and the preachings of anarchy from the speakers. What confused me even more is that over here in the UK, people were going on about it being "the will of the British people" not to go to war in Iraq, yet there wasn't a single Union jack evident. What could be a greater symbolism of British will? These same people had no problem in displaying symbols which demonstrated anti-Americanism.

[Tim]

Originally Posted By Savoy Truffle:


Declaring war on Iraq may not be the answer either, but something has to be done.<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Too bad Iraq did not have anthing to do with 9/11 eh?
It was all funded by The House Of Saud.

[PaulsPrincess]

Originally Posted By motherTheresa:

starting with "let's change our society." do you
mean American society? and what needs to be
changed?
...did you see
them dancing in the streets when it happened?
they were rejoicing! they DO NOT THINK LIKE WE DO!
you cannot spout platitudes like "Give Peace A
Chance" at these people! so people are marching in
peace rallies, okay it is their right. so where
is Al Qaeda? marching for peace are they? it's the MONSTERS we have
to worry about. and they're still out there,
plotting, scheming, wanting us dead!<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">I hear what you're saying and I certainly understand your feelings about the tragedy of 9/11. I too felt the pain of that terrible day and grieved as our nation, and the world grieved after that tragic event. But the thing is you're speaking specifically of the Al Qaeda and "terrorists", not Iraq. Our political leaders have tried to brianwash us, in order to get our support for this war, into thinking that our going to war with Iraq is really a fight against "terrorism", that it will stop further tragedies like 9/11, that it is a battle of good (the U.S.) vs. evil (Iraq). This is simply not the case, nothing is that black & white. First of a all, they have offered no substantial evidence that the two (Al Qaeda & Iraq) are connected. Secondly, what makes them think that attacking one terrorist contry will stop another from retaliating against us? Wouldn't it provoke them to strike back? Finally your use of the word "monsters" clearly demonstrates the fact that the media has done its job. It's got you thinking of a group of people as "monsters". I realize that Hussein is a terribly disturbed man, who isn't going to listen to songs like "Imagine" and think..."gee, why don't we give peace a chance" but we have to realize that when we go to war it isn't him directly that we are fighting. The political leaders that declare war, government officials, are never the ones on the front line. It is going to be innocent civilians, women and children, our boyfriends, husbands and fathers, teachers, shopkeepers, the everyday people that make up a society that are going to suffer and die. It isn't the Al Qaeda, or Hussein, or Ben Laden that we're fighting here. Ask yourself, and be honest, do you think that this war would even be an issue if there was no oil in Iraq? Probably not...
When I mentioned that I wanted a change in society, I don't mean simply the U.S., I was referring to the world. I'm not so idealistic that I think spouting platitudes like "give peace a chance" are really going to change the world, but I do think that if enough people support that frame of mind that it could make a difference, and one for the better.
This is just my opinion, but again I don't see the harm in supporting peace even in a time of war. So I'll say it again, and with pride graemlins/teeth1.gif "Give peace a chance!"
graemlins/peace.gif

[ Feb 24, 2003, 12:38 PM: Message Edited By: PaulsPrincess ]

[motherTheresa]

Actually, PaulsPrincess, I also want there to be

peace. I wish there was peace EVERYWHERE!

Wouldn't it be wonderful? However, perhaps due

to observing mans inhumanity to man globe-wide,

I don't hold out much hope for it. graemlins/sad1.gif *

Also, I think the long-standing (biblical in

proportion) powderkeg that is the Middle East

has reached out to encompass us all! There is

BIG TIME hatred/resentment/distrust on behalf

of Arab countries because of U.S. support of

Israel. Then we have a Jihad because of it.

Yeah, I think cowardly terrorists are monsters.

graemlins/angry7.gif * I'm just afraid this whole scenario

will not go away...as easily as we want it to.

Am I brainwashed?

Only by George, perhaps.

[Prelly]

See, im for war. I dont like war, but when its needed I believe it should be used. I wanna keep my skin, and if that means we haveta kill that evil monster Sadaam to do that, then its all good with me. graemlins/thumbsup2.gif

[PaulsPrincess]

Originally Posted By motherTheresa:


Am I brainwashed?

Only by George, perhaps.<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">"Only by George" graemlins/laugh5.gif Good one!

I also want to apologize, I didn't mean that you personally were brainwashed. I know my comments seemed pretty much directed at you, but the "you" I was referring to, for the most part at least, was people in general. And that definately was not meant to be a slam against you.

One final note and then I'll shut up... (well...actually, no promises on that one graemlins/wink3.gif ) It's not that I think war is never the answer, it's that I think war doesn't have to be the answer. I simply don't think that there is enough evidence right now to justify our going to war, especially when it seems that the majority of the world and our nation is against it; however, if there are more justifiable issues for war in the future than that's another issue entirely.
I may never personally support or agree with war, but I do understand the fact that sometimes, unfortunately, it is an answer; however, at this time I just don't think that it's the right one.
graemlins/peace.gif

[Beatleboydave]

Hi PaulsPrincess! Thanks for the warm welcome the other day. This is an interesting forum. I get to talk when I want and stop when I'm finished (if only for a moment). Leave it to The Beatles to bring this sort of discussion together.
First, I would like to know how to support peace. You used the saying "actions speak louder than words". What are those actions? I'm being serious when I ask that question as all I'm hearing (seeing) are words. I need to know that we can do something constructive that might have a similar impact as war, which from our American perspective is designed to bring about peace.
Secondly, you mentioned that a majority of the worlds nations are against the U.S. going to war. What nations are those and why are they against the prospect of war with Iraq? Surely those governments must understand that we don't desire war but rather that we must disarm and remove Saddam from power thereby liberating the people of Iraq so they also may live in peace. Perhaps a peace they have never known!
Thirdly, you state that half of the U.S. is against us going to war. This conjures up a couple of thoughts. That would mean that half of the U.S. IS FOR us going to war. More accurately we should understand that recent polls show 54-62% of America is supporting President Bush in this matter. These are pretty significant numbers. But again I think we understand that we desire to disarm and remove Saddam from power and not engage in war. This is where the media has been rather successful in distoring the picture. Granted we may find ourselves and the United Nations engaged in a fierce battle but let's pray that's not the case. When you say that the nation's leaders are choosing to ignore 'that majority' (that being half the U.S.) we understand that to be only half and not the majority. Furthermore, we have elected represnetatives who stand in the gap and make these painful decisions for us. Those decisions are based on intelligance we are not privy to. I feel it safe to say that were we able to have access to all variables in the decision making process the vast majority would fail to comprehend the complexities of the issues. Our government (I believe) is well educated in matters we only take time to critize from an emotional perspetive.
You also state that you have not seen enough evidence to justify going to war. What do you wish to see that would justify war, short of an all out attack on our soil?
PaulsPrincess, I believe you truly want peace but what are you willing to do for it?
You say you want a revolution?

[oracle193]

I'm glad that Dhani and Stella were at the rally
in London. To Hari Scruff, I was quite young during the early and mid-sixties but clearly
remember Lennon getting his first bad press by
opposing the Vietnam War back in early 1966. It
certainly changed my life and awareness for the
better. I later learned all of the Beatles held
the same views at this time!

[beatlebangs1964]

In a way, you feel a real bond with the "Beatle offspring" who DID attend the marches.