Poverty

[feelfab]

The poor never get a break--good economic times, bad economic times, but the poor stay poor. Politicians talk, but still, there it is. There's a lot of evidence of the caring on this forum, and it would be interesting to see how the different B'Linkers feel and act on this stubborn problem.

[Hari's Chick]

Truly, people only care to the level it does not affect their standard of living, imo. As soon as caring equates to sacrifice, then it becomes cumbersome. That is true of politicians and just regular folks. If we could feed bunches of starving people but would get taxed an extra percent, people would vote against it. How about a "keep the change" program? People would vote against it. I won't even get started on cutting the benefits the wealthy have sanctioned governmentally... I highly recommend reading Donald L. Barlett to get an overview on ways America could restructure things.

There are so many ways poverty affects people, and many people just take things for granted. Education is a luxury for many. Proper health care is a luxury for many.

I have grown very disillusioned and bitter with the entire situation.

[darkhorse23]

And many people are poor because of choices they make. We can't continue to blame society for everything. How many "poor" people choose to smoke at $6-$8 per pack? How many choose to have kids they cannot afford? I've seen people scrounge up their last dollar to buy beer or a lottery ticket. I believe people should accept responsibility instead of place blame.

[Hari's Chick]

And many people are poor because of choices they make. We can't continue to blame society for everything. How many "poor" people choose to smoke at $6-$8 per pack? How many choose to have kids they cannot afford? I've seen people scrounge up their last dollar to buy beer or a lottery ticket. I believe people should accept responsibility instead of place blame.

Honestly? I do not begrudge someone spending their last dollar on escapism (beer) or hope (lottery tiickets). Society does not start out "even," nor does fate have financial mercy. If a person is not given a fair shake at the same education, then how can one be competitive in the current job market? Wealth begets wealth. It is entirely unfair to blame the poor. That's often used by the wealthy to justify lacking any compassion at all.

[VersusBatman]

It is entirely unfair to blame the poor.That's often used by the wealthy to justify lacking any compassion at all.
"Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?" - A Christmas Carol

[62hofner]

There will always be people who abuse the system and try and live off of everyone else. On the other hand, there will always be people who have way more than most people, yet who themselves take advantage of the system in order to keep more of what is already more than most.

Rich people, poor people, those who are comfortable, those who are just getting by, the working poor...... it'll always be this way. Yes, some people have made poor life decisions that have gotten them in trouble. But everyone makes mistakes—even wealthy people. Only difference with them is they have plenty to fall back on after they screw up.

Not everyone is destined to be a CEO or a successful entrepreneur, etc. Some were not gifted with the innate skills and abilities - nor the opportunities - to succeed. Moreover, no wealthy person has gotten wealthy on their own. They have had "little people" below them working hard to help them achieve their wealth. Often, these people are forgotten or seen as "expendable" or "replaceable".

So to forsake the poor... to say they're all the same—lazy and wanting only to be given hand-outs as a result of their bad decisions—is simply wrong. To look down on them is a sin. Some people fall on hard times through no fault of their own. Many times they are victims of a system that does not protect them.

In summary, I don't know what the answer is to dealing effectively with poverty. All we can do is hope there are always benevolent powers that will look out for the impoverished.

[Serena]

A start would be to lose capitalism, socialism really isn't a bad alternative to consider when properly and fairly analyzed. But America is probably too weak to handle such a major change in systems after living so long on the same ideology. Maybe if certain supremacies could mind their fµcking businesses and stop trying to be the hero to every dilemma, progress can finally be made with use of quality funds. But really, I don't think poverty can every be completely eradicated, humans are far too naturally selfish to fully give that up.

[The New AimeeAndBeatles]

And many people are poor because of choices they make. We can't continue to blame society for everything. How many "poor" people choose to smoke at $6-$8 per pack? How many choose to have kids they cannot afford? I've seen people scrounge up their last dollar to buy beer or a lottery ticket. I believe people should accept responsibility instead of place blame.

How did I know someone was gonna say that. Sigh.

[beatlebangs1964]

People do not choose poverty. True, smoking is an atrocious habit that is also costly, but it sounds bloodless and cruel to blame people for being poor. Not all poor people smoke.

Who are we to judge people for being blessed with children? Perhaps education and money management classes and tips for people in need instead of blaming them for being poor and helping them see the consequences of "spending their last dollar on beer or lottery tickets" and instead on essentials.

I think the real poverty lies in those who lack compassion. There but by the Grace of God go I....I think people deserve compassion and a chance, not blame and censure.

[Rellevart]

And many people are poor because of choices they make. We can't continue to blame society for everything. How many "poor" people choose to smoke at $6-$8 per pack? How many choose to have kids they cannot afford? I've seen people scrounge up their last dollar to buy beer or a lottery ticket. I believe people should accept responsibility instead of place blame.

I think that's the exception as opposed to the rule. I'm not denying that some people's poverty is exacerbated by their poor choices, that's absolutely true, and I'm all about personal responsibility, but I think it's denying more overarching societal problems to state that it's most poor people's own fault that they are that way.

I'm all in favor of programs that help people become self-sufficient and self-supporting. Seems to me there aren't enough of those though...there are more entitlement programs than supplemental programs. If you give people money for sitting around doing nothing, what is their incentive to work? I would think it would make more sense to supplement their income, if they work at a low-paying job, so that it becomes a liveable income. That way the individual learns job skills, gains a work ethic and we as a society get a return off of them, seems like a win win. I'm sure there's some reason why that 'won't work', but what we're doing now doesn't seem to be working either, we're spending money we don't have and can't afford and we're not helping people better their lot in life, we're just carrying them indefinitely.

I don't have the answers. I can help on an individual basis, but I don't know how to revamp society.

[The New AimeeAndBeatles]

Thats if you can FIND a freaking job. Sometime theres no choice but to sit around.

[Maia 66]

It would be interesting to have a discussion about poverty in the U.S. compared to poverty in other highly industrialized Western nations, specifically Canada, much of Western Europe, etc.

My hunch is that poverty is more trenchant here than those other places, where my *guess* would be that most of the poor are recent immigrants and that those who are generationally poor have really dwindled in numbers in the last 60 years or so.

The U.S. is the (just about) ONLY highly industrialized "first world" nation that has little/no social institutions (outside the soon-to-disappear Medicare and Social Security) that guarantee basic economic rights for all.

FDR wanted to propose a second Bill of Rights to our constitution... an Economic Bill of Rights. (Check it out here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Bill_of_Rights).) When we helped all the other countries who were devastated after WW2, we instituted many of those policies, which helped them prosper and become much more stable societies, but sadly FDR died before he could push it through Congress.

We should have listened to FDR. He really understood what poverty can do to a nation. We would be a much stronger USA if FDR had lived.

[PepperlandFrog]

People do not choose poverty.
yet people choose wealth over extreme dirt poor poverty, easy jobs over labor-intensive jobs, makebusy work over brutal "pennies on the dollar" physical labor. so whose to say? after all is said and done, often the selection just isn't there. i will give you this, you and me trying sorely in vain to describe, pigeon-hole, qualify, quantify, deconstruct and delineate poverty and its root causes is a whole nother world from actually being there. looking down my nose at others misfortunes has never been my cup of tea anyhow.
...gains a work ethic and we as a society get a return off of them, seems like a win win. all poverty-stricken people know how to do is make lousy and bad choices while everybody else lives the easy life, as long as you can make your next credit card payment happen. i tend to disagree at face value, but nine times out of ten i will agree with you about the work ethic thing. it's just that at first take it appears to be just so much thick and arbitrary whitewash, a true denial of morals and ethics.

[beatlebangs1964]

I don't look down my nose at anyone and I was born with a splintered wooden spoon in my mouth.

Naturally wealth is preferable to penury. I stand by what I said that I honestly don't believe people choose poverty. There are many who are born into poverty and no way can anybody call THAT a choice.

Amen, Sister Maia! FDR was a Godsend, a boon to the flagging economy. He was well loved in my family. My great-grandmother and grandparents idolized him and so did some of my other older relatives. He was called a Beacon of Light that led people up out of the Dark Days of the Depression. I also salute President Clinton as well.

[scouseofdistinction]

If a person is not given a fair shake at the same education, then how can one be competitive in the current job market? Wealth begets wealth. It is entirely unfair to blame the poor. That's often used by the wealthy to justify lacking any compassion at all.

And it is entirely unfair to say the wealthy lack any compassion at all. Not all "wealthy" individuals are stingy, spoiled and selfish. Also, it is the rich that buy the most expensive and ridiculous items, which then helps our economy a bit.

I sometimes question though why don't celebrities practice what they preach...

Also, we are offered a fair shake at the same education. Maybe not college, but up to high school. And it is up to the individual about whether or not they drop out, or if they want to further their education. If they cannot afford college, they have options (i.e. loans, scholarships, community college, saving up, military, etc.) Whether or not they want to take advantage of these options, or even choose to strive to obtain them is solely their choice. Then in college, you choose your major. Different majors = different pay.

I don't look down my nose at anyone and I was born with a splintered wooden spoon in my mouth.

I don't look down at anyone poor, nor do I snarl at people more wealthy than I. I understand that some people do not choose the status they are born into, but I do agree that people need to take some responsibility for their actions instead of complaining or depending on others all of the time. What happened to the American dream? Yes, not all choose poverty, but some make choices that can lead to poverty. Those who are wealthy or doing great in this country could have also been born into a lower status, but made choices, sacrificed and worked hard to get to where they are today. I wish people understood or considered that too.

Either way, Jesus said there will always be poor people. Right now, especially Christmastime, we have choices we can make to better their situation. Arguing with one another, or rejecting other people's thoughts won't help. That's what politicians are for and let's face it, they aren't doing squat.

[The New AimeeAndBeatles]

Also, we are offered a fair shake at the same education. Maybe not college, but up to high school. And it is up to the individual about whether or not they drop out, or if they want to further their education. If they cannot afford college, they have options (i.e. loans, scholarships, community college, saving up, military, etc.)

Heck, even community college is more than I can afford. I had to take out a student loan for that. Scholarships is only for really smart kids that I am not. And "Saving Up" only works if you have FREAKING MONEY TO SAVE.

[Hari's Chick]

And it is entirely unfair to say the wealthy lack any compassion at all. Not all "wealthy" individuals are stingy, spoiled and selfish. Also, it is the rich that buy the most expensive and ridiculous items, which then helps our economy a bit.

I did not say "the wealthy lack any compassion at all." That's silly. I mean, jump off at me if you like, but you should at least really read my words.

And not all high schools are the same, not all grammar schools are the same. If you think that you've been misinformed. Some wealthy schools are even going to e-readers now which will give them the chance to get the newest technology and newest info updated at will. Will the poorer areas have these opportunities? Um, no.

If they cannot afford college, they have options (i.e. loans, scholarships, community college, saving up, military, etc.)

Oh, there you go, lol... yeah those poor sods can just join up and serve to get their college education paid for. That's a fair option. Unfortunately, it is often the only option for some poorer people.

[Hari's Chick]

And "Saving Up" only works if you have FREAKING MONEY TO SAVE.

Very well spoken, Aimee!

[Hari's Chick]

Amen, Sister Maia! FDR was a Godsend, a boon to the flagging economy. He was well loved in my family. My great-grandmother and grandparents idolized him and so did some of my other older relatives. He was called a Beacon of Light that led people up out of the Dark Days of the Depression. I also salute President Clinton as well.

He was loved in my family, too, BB! I remember Mom mentioning so many times how he helped us out of the Depression.


MJ mentions him in a song, too~

"I can't believe this is the
land from which I came
You know I do really hate to say it
The government don't wanna see
But if Roosevelt was living
He wouldn't let this be, no, no..."

[beatlebangs1964]

Franklin Roosevelt was a Godsend! Some of my older relatives, all of whom I am sad to say have since died got their jobs through FDR's WPA. My grandparents called him a Godsend who "led us up out of the Dark Days of the depression."

Amen, Sister Hari's Chick! You said what I was thinking and expressed it beautifully. :smile1:

[Maia 66]

Also, we are offered a fair shake at the same education. Maybe not college, but up to high school.

Absolutely untrue! I have worked in Los Angeles public schools for 23 years... there is NO WAY all students have the same opportunities! My students are poor... and they receive much less.

I can give you hundreds of examples, but I'll just share one. My school is overcrowded and until very recently was on a year-round schedule (not equal to the traditional Sept-June model)... we received the same number of arts teachers as every other school, which means that the vast majority of my students never had theater/dance/visual arts last year... yet in schools in the richer areas (with 1/3 of the number of students), every kid received arts instruction... and, often times, the parents of those kids fundraise for additional art teachers.

[The New AimeeAndBeatles]

The way I understand it, the problem with the gap (in the U.S.) is that schools are funded by local taxes. So if you have a mostly low-income group, little taxes > less money > cuts in education. Which is pretty lame and I think it should be funded differently.

[beatlelover45223]

Amen Maia and Aimee, ain't that the truth! :rolleyes:

[darkhorse23]

This post is NOT aimed at anybody in particular.

We can argue/debate all of our lives as to the causes and effects of poverty. The one thing WE ALL can control is "what have WE done to help the poor?" I know what I have done this past year and where I wish I could have done more, I am very comfortable with what I have done as far as donations.

Have you thrown any money into the Salvation Army buckets this year? How about any donations to Toys for Tots, many retailers had drop-offs making it almost too easy to say I didn't get around to it this year? Did anybody donate to a food bank?

To those who have no jobs certainly had more time than those of us that do work; did you donate any time to any organizations? If we use our time and resources wisely, we can make a difference.

[beatlebangs1964]

Amen, Sister Maia!

Amen, Sister Aimee!

[darkhorse23]

Amen sister scouseofdistinction

[Hari's Chick]

This post is NOT aimed at anybody in particular.

We can argue/debate all of our lives as to the causes and effects of poverty. The one thing WE ALL can control is "what have WE done to help the poor?" I know what I have done this past year and where I wish I could have done more, I am very comfortable with what I have done as far as donations.

Have you thrown any money into the Salvation Army buckets this year? How about any donations to Toys for Tots, many retailers had drop-offs making it almost too easy to say I didn't get around to it this year? Did anybody donate to a food bank?

To those who have no jobs certainly had more time than those of us that do work; did you donate any time to any organizations? If we use our time and resources wisely, we can make a difference.

If you mean for us to post tallys of our good deeds, then we are going against what Jesus said about the widow.

"And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living."

~ Mark 12:41-44

And what was the story where someone donated but then bragged ... and Jesus said basically "hey, you've already bragged, so you have your reward. Those who give quietly will have their rewards in heaven." [sorry for the paraphrase...]

Anyway, I suspect a lot of Christians will- because of this- incline to not answer your questions.

[CWW]

Yeah and isnt the whole message of Christmas, even the materialists message "giving is better than receiving?!"

[Hari's Chick]

Amen, CWW!!! And Halleluia, too! :teeth1:

Here is the quote I was looking for!

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. ... "
~Matthew 6:1-34

[CWW]

Amen Sister HC!!

Yeah i believe anonomous donations are much more significant than the people that seem to list all their endless good deeds and donations ad finitum like the bill gates of the world etc, no matter how wealthy they are and the size of the donations, its almost like its a good publicity drive, or giving out of guilt...syre it may help people in need more than joe bloggs giving $20, but that $20 was probably needed by joe bloggs more than Bill gates needed the $100 million he gave away .. Sometimes its like its given out of guilt, doesnt really fool anyone!

[62hofner]

The issue of poverty is just too big an issue to truly be able to wrap one's head around....

There's been a lot of talk about "donations" in recent posts. I don't think the answer is in "donations". I mean.... I will admit, I am a proud individual—yet I'd much rather work as a street sweeper than to rely on "donations" from wealthy people or not-so-wealthy people alike. But being a street sweeper would pretty much be towards the bottom of my list of jobs I'd accept. I am too skilled and have more to offer society than a broom... not to mention, I have paid into the system for far too long to not expect it to give a little back to me at the times I need it. I've been on unemployment for a year now, and I have no feelings of guilt or whatever. Anyway...

No... I would much rather their be a more fair system in place where those who "have not" were able to have a little more, and where those who "have" weren't given so much. When you've got tens of thousands of people living paycheck-to-paycheck, or worse - depending on shelters because their jobs have been sent overseas, can't find work, etc., etc. while you've got INDIVIDUALS coming away from a company with a bonus package or "severance" that equals a modest annual income for those same tens of thousands of people....... that is simply wrong.

Check this article out. This illustrates how unfair - even obscene - this country's capitalistic "model" has become: http://www.cnbc.com/id/38643836?slide=1

[Serena]

Donations are only a temporary solution, which even they carry a selfish root, but it does nothing for the real root of the problem concerning greed, apathy, disdain and blind consequences. Rewards need not be expected and bestowed upon man's most natural attributes, selfishness and arrogance, for everyone is really under the hardship of poverty and no solution can result.

[FPSHOT]

Amen to you all.

I donate money to about a dozen institutions for many years even though I could do with the money myself but just feel good to do it like a Cancer fund, like funds for kids, like WWF for animals.

[mariposa]

I believe the best solution to the poverty problem is a strong, thriving economy overall. Unemployment generally affects the lower rungs of the economic ladder disproportionately. The poverty level cycles in step with the unemployment rate.

So the best solution, in my mind, is to get the overall world economy working better. I realize that's an obvious statement, but to that end I see my role as voting for the politicians who will best further that goal, as much as it is throwing change into the Salvation Army bucket. My family and I do what we can for individuals affected by poverty, but I think we also must take a long range view of the problem, and look at the forest and not just the trees.

There will always be a division between rich and poor. Everyone has different skills, intelligence, ambition, etc. We cannot avoid that, but what we can avoid is allowing children to go hungry or without adequate medical care.

To allow any child to starve because his parents were not able to provide for him, for whatever reasion, is unconscionable in a modern, compassionate civilization. The same is true of the elderly or incapacitated.

[Serena]

Easier said than done. To restore the economy to sufficient equality must call for an end to greed which no god or human(s) have been able to do. Even donations do not limit selfishness.

[darkhorse23]

If you mean for us to post tallys of our good deeds, then we are going against what Jesus said about the widow.

"And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living."

~ Mark 12:41-44

And what was the story where someone donated but then bragged ... and Jesus said basically "hey, you've already bragged, so you have your reward. Those who give quietly will have their rewards in heaven." [sorry for the paraphrase...]

Anyway, I suspect a lot of Christians will- because of this- incline to not answer your questions.

No, I did not anywhere ask to post your good deeds. I didn't list mine. All I did was ask if everybody was comfortable with what they are doing.

It's easier to bitch and moan and come up with philosophical what-ifs than it is to actually do anything.

[The New AimeeAndBeatles]

Even with all the donations in the world there'll still be people who slip through the cracks.

[Rellevart]

I think a lot of times, people's views on "the poor" fall into one of two extremes, either (a) that they're lazy suckers who want to sit on their asses and be taken care of and it's all their fault or (b) that they are total victims of circumstance, they're somehow "noble" and that the rich are "evil".

Of course, neither of these extremes are true in the vast majority of situations.

And yes, I'm comfortable with what I do to help. I could do more and have some concrete plans to do so in the coming year, but still, I'm comfortable.

[FPSHOT]

I think a lot of times, people's views on "the poor" fall into one of two extremes, either (a) that they're lazy suckers who want to sit on their asses and be taken care of and it's all their fault or (b) that they are total victims of circumstance, they're somehow "noble" and that the rich are "evil".

Very well said Rell, I also have some experience with people who were in the deep and offered them a lot of thoughts about how they could come above based on their talents but... nothing happened with it

[The New AimeeAndBeatles]

I think a lot of times, people's views on "the poor" fall into one of two extremes, either (a) that they're lazy suckers who want to sit on their asses and be taken care of and it's all their fault or (b) that they are total victims of circumstance, they're somehow "noble" and that the rich are "evil".

Of course, neither of these extremes are true in the vast majority of situations.

It aint a homogeneous group. They're people!

[62hofner]

I handed some homeless guy a $20 bill several weekends ago as I sat at a red light at the end of an exit ramp—a favorite spot for homeless people to stand with their "Help" signs.

I felt bad for the guy, and have no idea how he got to where he got in life. I know that my $20 was not going to fix his problem—just maybe ease his difficulties in a very temporary way. As someone else stated above... donations - whether an individual donation to a homeless person on the street, or an annual donation to a charitable organization - are only temporary and don't cure the disease.

The society we live in today (United States I am talking) is broken economically... if not broken, damaged at the very least. The wealth in this country has slowly but surely been reaching uneven levels of distribution. As the old saying goes, "the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer".

It is wrong for myself, and the other 65-75 people I used to work with, to have lost their jobs over a year ago, while there are Officers in our company who will be able to leave their posts one day with bonuses and severances that represent more money than me and my former colleagues, combined, would have made if we were kept on for another couple years or so. We used to laugh (what else could be do?) when we'd get the company newsletters and internet announcements that would go out to the shareholders.... stating that the company was implementing "strategic initiatives, etc., etc." to guarantee their profits. LOL! "Strategic initiatives"! Why didn't they just say, "We're giving hundreds of people - company-wide - the axe for YOU greedy bastards!". :laugh5:

Of course, ambition and a drive to succeed are things to be admired and aspired to... and not all wealthy people are "evil" and greedy. But when people are hurting, the entire country should share in the "hurt" to some degree—because it's the people who play with and make all the money who cause the pain in many cases. If you read the article I included in my previous post above, you'll see that many CEO's leave with less-than respectable records of service—yet they still can leave with a hefty sum that far outweighs their worth, and is not in-line with their performance?! Hell... some of those guys were paid a huge pay-out for nothing more than helping to drive the housing market into the ground, making life difficult for a whole lot of people. How is any of this ok?

[Maia 66]

How is any of this ok?

None of it is okay. I feel we as a nation have lost our moral compass... and I feel we need a real leader, someone who appeals to our better natures, not just to greed and fear. That is why I posted earlier about FDR. We need a new FDR to swing the pendulum back to a focus on making the American dream possible for all Americans. Don't people understand anymore what we are supposed to stand for??

Although I sympathize with the unbelievable challenges that Obama was left with when he took office and although I support him, I fear he is not the leader I had hoped he would be.

[Maia 66]

It's easier to bitch and moan and come up with philosophical what-ifs than it is to actually do anything.

The system is broken and it needs to be repaired... individual acts will not accomplish that. The first step is to define the problem and then raise consciousness about what the roots of the problem actually are... you can't truly change things for the better unless you understand the problem. We need real and honest dialog to get to those roots... and I think that's what many people in this thread are engaged in. Not just bitching and moaning.

[darkhorse23]

To all of those who feel a sense of effort, compassion and accomplishment for what you've done to help the needy, I give you guys a big :thumbu2: thumbs up.

[beatlebangs1964]

Good on you, Hof. I like that!

There is the Brown Bag ministry at my church. You go to the Church kitchen at 5:00 a.m. and make bag lunches and hand them out to hungry people begging on the streets. You make a meat sandwich on wheat bread; include a boiled egg and a bottle of water with fluoride and a piece of fruit.

The Mobile Loaves & Fishes truck makes runs every other Monday to impoverished neighborhoods and places where the homeless congregate. There are bag meals on the truck and a hot coffee dispenser so if people want that with their food, it's there.

[Maia 66]

To all of those who feel a sense of effort, compassion and accomplishment for what you've done to help the needy, I give you guys a big :thumbu2: thumbs up.

I sense your sarcasm, but wish to defer to Hari's Chick's earlier post (http://www.beatlelinks.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1041912&postcount=29)... and to remind you that to get rid of poverty, we must do more than simply "help the needy."

[Serena]

Every purchase made is considered assistance towards the needy. It gives to the 'needs' of these greedy CEO's and ensures a growing economy for more employment. But everyday people pray to their gods for a better job, house, car, ect. and still wants more after that. Everyone is needy because everyone desires more. Look at these celebrities that spend like there is no tomorrow on luxurious crap while there is so many out there with absolutely nothing, then they engage in these charitable events for their publicity needs. It may make a minor and temporary difference, but does little to nothing in the long term. The eradication of greed is where poverty can be limited. But you cannot eliminate what is intuitive, you can treat it but not cure it.

[darkhorse23]

I sense your sarcasm, but wish to defer to Hari's Chick's earlier post (http://www.beatlelinks.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1041912&postcount=29)... and to remind that to get rid of poverty, we must do more than simply "help the needy."

It's not sarcasm.

My gut feeling though is that many of those who are blaming society, the wealthy, "the system" and everything and everybody else haven't done a damn thing to help anybody else.

[PepperlandFrog]

It is wrong for myself, and the other 65-75 people I used to work with, to have lost their jobs over a year ago, while there are Officers in our company who will be able to leave their posts one day with bonuses and severances that represent more money than me and my former colleagues, combined, would have made if we were kept on for another couple years or so. We used to laugh (what else could be do?) when we'd get the company newsletters and internet announcements that would go out to the shareholders.... stating that the company was implementing "strategic initiatives, etc., etc." to guarantee their profits. LOL! "Strategic initiatives"! Why didn't they just say, "We're giving hundreds of people - company-wide - the axe for YOU greedy bastards!". :laugh5:

Of course, ambition and a drive to succeed are things to be admired and aspired to... and not all wealthy people are "evil" and greedy. But when people are hurting, the entire country should share in the "hurt" to some degree—because it's the people who play with and make all the money who cause the pain in many cases. If you read the article I included in my previous post above, you'll see that many CEO's leave with less-than respectable records of service—yet they still can leave with a hefty sum that far outweighs their worth, and is not in-line with their performance?! Hell... some of those guys were paid a huge pay-out for nothing more than helping to drive the housing market into the ground, making life difficult for a whole lot of people. How is any of this ok?something is broken. yet buried beneath all the throw-away, see-through dimestore cliches, DUMBYist rhetoric and missed opportunities is the human spirit, sometimes enslaved only in fear and insecurity, sometimes dysfunctional, sometimes even comfortably dumb.

but yeah throwing money at a problem such as this is hardly a solution.

[The New AimeeAndBeatles]

It's not sarcasm.

My gut feeling though is that many of those who are blaming society, the wealthy, "the system" and everything and everybody else haven't done a damn thing to help anybody else.

Shouting "Youre a hypocrite!" aint much likely to help either, is it?

[Serena]

Everybody here is a regular daily consumer, therefore everybody is helping. But I blame humanity in general, nobody is off the hook. Everyone is both needy and greedy to some extent, we are too weak of a species to let this slip by. Good for those that have donated some additional money to a temporary solution, but self-pride does not help the situation and better.

[The New AimeeAndBeatles]

Interesting article posted on another board Im on
http://www.alternet.org/story/149324/

America in Decline: Why Germans Think We're Insane
By Democrats Ramshield, AlterNet
Posted on December 26, 2010, Printed on December 27, 2010

s an American expat living in the European Union, I’ve started to see America from a different perspective.

The European Union has a larger economy and more people than America does. Though it spends less -- right around 9 percent of GNP on medical, whereas we in the U.S. spend close to between 15 to 16 percent of GNP on medical -- the EU pretty much insures 100 percent of its population.

The U.S. has 59 million people medically uninsured; 132 million without dental insurance; 60 million without paid sick leave; 40 million on food stamps. Everybody in the European Union has cradle-to-grave access to universal medical and a dental plan by law. The law also requires paid sick leave; paid annual leave; paid maternity leave. When you realize all of that, it becomes easy to understand why many Europeans think America has gone insane.

Der Spiegel has run an interesting feature called "A Superpower in Decline," which attempts to explain to a German audience such odd phenomena as the rise of the Tea Party, without the hedging or attempts at "balance" found in mainstream U.S. media. On the Tea Parties:

Full of Hatred: "The Tea Party, that group of white, older voters who claim that they want their country back, is angry. Fox News host Glenn Beck, a recovering alcoholic who likens Obama to Adolf Hitler, is angry. Beck doesn't quite know what he wants to be -- maybe a politician, maybe president, maybe a preacher -- and he doesn't know what he wants to do, either, or least he hasn't come up with any specific ideas or plans. But he is full of hatred."

The piece continues with the sobering assessment that America’s actual unemployment rate isn’t really 10 percent, but close to 20 percent when we factor in the number of people who have stopped looking for work.

Some social scientists think that making sure large-scale crime or fascism never takes root in Europe again requires a taxpayer investment in a strong social safety net. Can we learn from Europe? Isn't it better to invest in a social safety net than in a large criminal justice system? (In America over 2 million people are incarcerated.)

Jobless Benefits That Never Run Out

Unlike here, in Germany jobless benefits never run out. Not only that -- as part of their social safety net, all job seekers continue to be medically insured, as are their families.

In the German jobless benefit system, when "jobless benefit 1" runs out, "jobless benefit 2," also known as HartzIV, kicks in. That one never gets cut off. The jobless also have contributions made for their pensions. They receive other types of insurance coverage from the state. As you can imagine, the estimated 2 million unemployed Americans who almost had no benefits this Christmas seems a particular horror show to Europeans, made worse by the fact that the U.S. government does not provide any medical insurance to American unemployment recipients. Europeans routinely recoil at that in disbelief and disgust.

In another piece the Spiegel magazine steps away from statistics and tells the story of Pam Brown, who personifies what is coming to be known as the Nouveau American poor. Pam Brown was a former executive assistant on Wall Street, and her shocking decline has become part of the American story:
American society is breaking apart. Millions of people have lost their jobs and fallen into poverty. Among them, for the first time, are many middle-class families. Meet Pam Brown from New York, whose life changed overnight. The crisis caught her unprepared. "It was horrible," Pam Brown remembers. "Overnight I found myself on the wrong side of the fence. It never occurred to me that something like this could happen to me. I got very depressed." Brown sits in a cheap diner on West 14th Street in Manhattan, stirring her $1.35 coffee. That's all she orders -- it's too late for breakfast and too early for lunch. She also needs to save money. Until early 2009, Brown worked as an executive assistant on Wall Street, earning more than $80,000 a year, living in a six-bedroom house with her three sons. Today, she's long-term unemployed and has to make do with a tiny one-bedroom in the Bronx.

It's important to note that no country in the European Union uses food stamps in order to humiliate its disadvantaged citizens in the grocery checkout line. Even worse is the fact that even the humbling food stamp allotment may not provide enough food for America’s jobless families. So it is on a reoccurring basis that some of these families report eating out of garbage cans to the European media.

For Pam Brown, last winter was the worst. One day she ran out of food completely and had to go through trash cans. She fell into a deep depression ... For many, like Brown, the downfall is a Kafkaesque odyssey, a humiliation hard to comprehend. Help is not in sight: their government and their society have abandoned them.

Pam Brown and her children were disturbingly, indeed incomprehensibly, allowed to fall straight to the bottom. The richest country in the world becomes morally bankrupt when someone like Pam Brown and her children have to pick through trash to eat, abandoned with a callous disregard by the American government. People like Brown have found themselves dispossessed due to the robber baron actions of the Wall Street elite.

Hunger in the Land of the Big Mac

A shocking headline from a Swiss newspaper reads (Berner Zeitung) “Hunger in the Land of the Big Mac.” Though the article is in German, the pictures are worth 1,000 words and need no translation. Given the fact that the Swiss virtually eliminated hunger, how do we as Americans think they will view these pictures, to which the American population has apparently been desensitized.

http://s1178.photobucket.com/albums/x371/backup2011/foodboxes.jpg
This appears to be a picture of two mothers collecting food boxes from the charity Feed the Children.

Perhaps the only way for us to remember what we really look like in America is to see ourselves through the eyes of others. While it is true that we can all be proud Americans, surely we don't have to be proud of the broken American social safety net. Surely we can do better than that. Can a European-style social safety net rescue the American working and middle classes from GOP and Tea Party warfare?

[Serena]

America is not mature enough to make such a transition that may alter their reputation as being the 'richest' nation. Mediocre health care for all is not sufficient for all. The GOP are not the only ones who would oppose this, it's most of Washington from both sides.

[Maia 66]

Great post, Aimee! That about sums it up.

Depressing, innit?

[Rellevart]

If you read the article I included in my previous post above, you'll see that many CEO's leave with less-than respectable records of service—yet they still can leave with a hefty sum that far outweighs their worth, and is not in-line with their performance?!

Yeah, this bothers me too. I really have no problem with CEO's who have a good record of service making a lot of money. You couldn't pay me enough to deal with the pressures and stresses a lot of those people have...with that much responsibility SHOULD come a good reward. But the ones who have a lousy record, screw up their companies, screw their employees...when they get multi-million dollar buyouts, something is seriously wrong.

[Rellevart]

Good for those that have donated some additional money to a temporary solution, but self-pride does not help the situation and better.


Are you saying that the only reason people donate to those less fortunate is so that they can feel good about themselves? Not to say that's not a nice by-product of charitable donations, but I think it's pretty cynical to think that is the main reason that people donate.

[LetThereBeMusic]

I don't know much about the economy and all, I'm still learning about all that.

But I can tell you this, I see hundreds of homeless people, many of which have quite a bit of money.
I find a lot of times, homeless are mentally ill, and even sometimes really DO choose to be homeless, but again, they have a disorder in some cases. They need help, but I don't think many of the people capable of helping would want to.
Here in Hawaii, some kids here choose to do ice and smoke weed, at 13 no less, and continue with this habit through adulthood.
Hawaii has the least school days in the U.S. And very poor educational quality. But our economy is also very poor, especially here. Anyone here heard of furlough Friday's? 17 days less of school last year, so they wouldn't have to pay teachers and they could save money for the State.
Next time, they're cutting (I think) 10,000 jobs, many of which teachers.
So, in order to save money, they take away education. And with a worse education, it's harder to get a job and/or go to college. Hawaii is something like the 48th(?) least intelligent state in the U.S.
And I'm not saying that with a good education poverty will vanish, there ARE people who choose to turn to crime, sadly.

Again, I know very little about any of this, so there must be something I'm missing, it all seems like a never ending cycle to me.

I don't have the answer and I don't know what to believe, all I'm doing is sharing what seems to be happening here.

[Maia 66]

And I'm not saying that with a good education poverty will vanish,

That was a great post... very insightful. I think you have hit on something very important. I agree that education alone can't 100% eradicate poverty, but it CAN go a very long way. But a GOOD education. Our colleges/universities are among the best in the world, but not our public schools. We need to do better... each child deserves an excellent public education. Not just those who live in good neighborhoods.

[62hofner]

Yeah, this bothers me too. I really have no problem with CEO's who have a good record of service making a lot of money. You couldn't pay me enough to deal with the pressures and stresses a lot of those people have...with that much responsibility SHOULD come a good reward. But the ones who have a lousy record, screw up their companies, screw their employees...when they get multi-million dollar buyouts, something is seriously wrong.

Yes, CEO's and the like are dealing in a different world than most. More pressure, stress, responsibility hanging over their heads? Perhaps this is true.

But not everyone can be a CEO, and not everyone cares to deal in that sort of environment. Does that mean they should not be richly rewarded, or that they don't deal with stress and responsibility, as well. I just don't see how ONE person can be given so much while so many struggle.

Check out the documentary, "The Corporation". It's a real eye-opener.

[The New AimeeAndBeatles]

And then there are those who'll say that removing regulations will make business pick up... You want to know what happens when you remove regulations?

http://img574.imageshack.us/img574/290/childlabor9637094.png

Yikes. And then the choice back in the early industrial, before all the labor unions and stuff, was either to take these dangerous jobs with shoddy wages... or starve. No middle class or nothing. Doesn't help much with poverty, does it? Work yourself to death jus' to make a living.

[62hofner]

And then there are those who'll say that removing regulations will make business pick up... You want to know what happens when you remove regulations?


Yeah, that's a good one! Would it make "business pick-up" because greedy, unscrupulous people will have free reign to do whatever they want in order to make lots of $$$$?

We all have seen what de-regulation has done! Are we SO at a loss for ways to make the economy work that don't include exploitation?

[Rellevart]

But not everyone can be a CEO, and not everyone cares to deal in that sort of environment. Does that mean they should not be richly rewarded, or that they don't deal with stress and responsibility, as well. I just don't see how ONE person can be given so much while so many struggle.

I agree that many who hold CEO and similar positions in large corporations are being paid obscene amounts of money that's hard to justify, even if they ARE doing a good job.

I also agree with your point that not everybody can, nor wants to be a CEO. I sure don't. It's an interesting point, actually, and one I run into all the time. I've been at my company for 26 years, it's the only "real" job I've ever had. Yet I'm still sitting in a cube, making ok money, but not rich by any means. Many people in management think I'm stupid or incapable of anything more complicated or more responsible than my current job, or else surely I'd be much higher on the corporate ladder than I am, right? No, not at all. It's been a conscious choice on my part to stay more or less at the level I'm at currently because I don't want to sacrifice my personal life and my side jobs (bands, making jewelry, freelance writing) to work 50, 60, 70 hours a week. This concept of having a life outside the office is so absolutely foreign to many of my coworkers that I'm seen as somewhat of an office eccentric. Fine by me. :smile1:

But I guess my point is that more responsibility and more stress should come with more rewards, but yes, it does seem to be disproportionate in many cases...

[darkhorse23]

Shouting "Youre a hypocrite!" aint much likely to help either, is it?

Guilty conscience?

[darkhorse23]

Are you saying that the only reason people donate to those less fortunate is so that they can feel good about themselves? Not to say that's not a nice by-product of charitable donations, but I think it's pretty cynical to think that is the main reason that people donate.

Agree 100%

[The New AimeeAndBeatles]

Guilty conscience?

Nah. But there's only so far donations will go.

[Serena]

Are you saying that the only reason people donate to those less fortunate is so that they can feel good about themselves? Not to say that's not a nice by-product of charitable donations, but I think it's pretty cynical to think that is the main reason that people donate.

No not the only reason,but when analyzed further enough this is often latent within peoples' doings. Selfishness is a natural characteristic in everyone to some extent, some kind of reward or reinforcement is often expected even if not immediately suspected. No good deed is completely selfless.

[The New AimeeAndBeatles]

No not the only reason,but when analyzed further enough this is often latent within peoples' doings. Selfishness is a natural characteristic in everyone to some extent, some kind of reward or reinforcement is often expected even if not immediately suspected. No good deed is completely selfless.

FWIW, there's actually a name for that. I forgot the name of it though.