DECCA AUDITION QUESTION

[jad2k1]

hey. i was reading the anthology 1 booklet and it said the beatles played 15 songs for the decca audition including the 5 on the anthology,i was wondering, have all 15 ever been released on bootleg?

joe

[Legs]

Yes, the best one to get imo is The Decca Tapes revised right speed, by Yellow Dog. YDB 101, which came in a box set, or also by Yellow Dog, "The Decca Tapes" YD 061, which was released separetly.

[onosideboards]

Originally Posted By Legs:
Yes, the best one to get imo is The Decca Tapes revised right speed, by Yellow Dog. YDB 101, which came in a box set, or also by Yellow Dog, "The Decca Tapes" YD 061, which was released separetly.<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">I just listened to that yesterday! images/icons/smile.gif

The YD speed corrected one also includes some Cavern rehersals, making it essential to any Beatleg library. images/icons/smile.gif

[Tim]

Decca was one of the bootlegs I got.

[Blackguard]

The full list of songs at the Decca Audition was;

Besame Mucho, Hello Little Girl, The Sheik Of Araby, September In The Rain, Three Cool Cats, Love Of The Loved, Memphis, Till There Was You, Crying Waiting Hoping, Like Dreamers Do, Money, Searching, Sure To Fall, To Know Her Is To Love Her, and Take Good Care Of My Baby.

12 cover tunes and 3 Lennon/McCartney originals.
The originals being Hello Little Girl, Love Of The Loved, and Like Dreamers Do. Interesting for me is that only Money and Till There Was You were recorded on their Parlophone LPs.

[ Dec 15, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message Edited By: Blackguard ]

[onosideboards]

Legs, does your copy of the YD version have some weird noise right after Track 1?

Another more general question: is the running order on the YD version the order on the original audition tape?

[Legs]

I don't have the Yellow Dog one. I got an official release of the Decca Tapes, that was released back in the days before Apple began making trouble. It has the 13 cover songs, two originals are on Anthology and I got the 3th one, "Love Of The Loved" on Anthology Plus.

[Legs]

In answer to your second question.Mark Lewisohns book The complete Beatles chronicle, mentions the same running order as the Yellow Dog release, saying that it is the most likely order of performance.

[onosideboards]

Ok, thanks!

I wish I could find a cheap copy of Mark's Chronicle book. images/icons/frown.gif

[dmpc]

Ok, thanks!

I wish I could find a cheap copy of Mark's Chronicle book. images/icons/frown.gif

I could give you mine as I have no use for any of Lewisohn's books.

Here's a philosophical question: how do these people that "speed correct" these discs know what the "correct" speed is?

[earwax]

I could give you mine as I have no use for any of Lewisohn's books.

Here's a philosophical question: how do these people that "speed correct" these discs know what the "correct" speed is?
"Assuming" they were tuned to standard pitch... adjust the speed until it's in tune.

I have the original vinyl that was released in the late 70's by Joe Pope's Strawberry Fields magazine. Never checked to see if it's "in tune".

[dmpc]

"Assuming" they were tuned to standard pitch... adjust the speed until it's in tune.

I have the original vinyl that was released in the late 70's by Joe Pope's Strawberry Fields magazine. Never checked to see if it's "in tune".

And how does one know what "in tune" is? That is, how does one know these recordings ARE out of tune, since you weren't there that day?

[El Gos Coix]

Probably by comparing those recordings with those of the same songs that were available officially. I suppose it's safe to assume that the Beatles always played "Till There Was You" in F, and so on, so if in the bootleg tape you've got it sounds in E, all you've got to do is to speed it up until it sounds in F, and if, as is to be expected, no one was messing with the tape speed during the recording of the audition or the subsequent transfer to other tape, all the songs will then go at the right speed and pitch.

[dmpc]

Probably by comparing those recordings with those of the same songs that were available officially. I suppose it's safe to assume that the Beatles always played "Till There Was You" in F, and so on, so if in the bootleg tape you've got it sounds in E, all you've got to do is to speed it up until it sounds in F, and if, as is to be expected, no one was messing with the tape speed during the recording of the audition or the subsequent transfer to other tape, all the songs will then go at the right speed and pitch.

And you know what happens when you assume.

I suppose it might also be safe to say that perhaps The Beatles DID play out of tune, because, after all, Decca did turn them down. I would think an out of tune group would get turned down.

[UncaDan]

The issue here is not that they were in or out of tune but whether or not they were tuned to proper concert pitch.

The difference is if you are in tune and you play a G chord it sounds good, there are no bad sounding notes within the chord. If you are tuned and at proper pitch that G chord will match a G chord on a well tuned piano or other tuning reference. If you tuned a whole step down from concert pitch that G chord will sound like an A chord.

A good example is Chuck Berry's early singles were performed at concert pitch but when the tapes were transferred to vinyl they sped the tape up so that when Chuck plays an E chord it sounds like an F chord. This was done to make Chucks voice sound higher and younger. So when Kieth Richards learned to play Chucks songs he learned them in a different key than the one Chuck actually played them in.

[JudithKristen]

Who made the choices/final decision for the Decca recordings?
Brian? The Beatles? ... all the above?

[El Gos Coix]

And you know what happens when you assume.

I suppose it might also be safe to say that perhaps The Beatles DID play out of tune, because, after all, Decca did turn them down. I would think an out of tune group would get turned down.

I cannot hear the Beatles playing or singing particularly out of tune in the Decca audition. I never said they did. And there's no reason to suppose it might be safe to say it: all you have to do is listen to the recording and decide, not suppose. One of the explanations that was given for their rejection (apart from the famous remark about guitar groups being on their wat out) is that the other group that was auditioned, the Tremeloes, was more convenient, being a London group. No one said anything about their being out of tune. Anyway, everyone knows that in the early days of their recording career the Beatles didn't stand out as gorgeous recording musicians. If EMI did finally got them (and if we believe George Martin and Norman Smith) it wasn't mainly because of their musical abilities, but for their charm.

As UncaDan has already explained, playing with a different tuning (which is what I was talking about) has nothing to do with playing out of tune, and is something perfectly admissible. One possibility might be that, being nervous, they decided to tune their guitars one or two semitones low, to avoid high notes. But I don't think they did; there's no know instance of their doing so, and neither the decay of the drum sound nor their voices sound as if the tape had required speeding up to sound in normal concert pitch (some time ago I did some kind of experiments regarding this with a cousin of mine who had studied recording techniques and sound processing).

[dmpc]

No, the issue is whether or not the person doing the adjusting of the tapes years after the fact was ever there at the Decca audition, and he or she wasn't.

So, how does one REALLY know if they are not the "correct pitch" as recorded? Answer: THEY DO NOT.

How do you KNOW Chuck Berry's tapes were sped up, were you in the studio? Nope, flyboy.

Speed correction is an arbitrary thing, I'm afraid to tell you. As you may or may not know, none of the remaining Beatles or any of their entourage remember anything, and Mark Lewisohn wasn't there, either (besides, he's useless).



The issue here is not that they were in or out of tune but whether or not they were tuned to proper concert pitch.

The difference is if you are in tune and you play a G chord it sounds good, there are no bad sounding notes within the chord. If you are tuned and at proper pitch that G chord will match a G chord on a well tuned piano or other tuning reference. If you tuned a whole step down from concert pitch that G chord will sound like an A chord.

A good example is Chuck Berry's early singles were performed at concert pitch but when the tapes were transferred to vinyl they sped the tape up so that when Chuck plays an E chord it sounds like an F chord. This was done to make Chucks voice sound higher and younger. So when Kieth Richards learned to play Chucks songs he learned them in a different key than the one Chuck actually played them in.

[El Gos Coix]

No, the issue is whether or not the person doing the adjusting of the tapes years after the fact was ever there at the Decca audition, and he or she wasn't.

So, how does one REALLY know if they are not the "correct pitch" as recorded? Answer: THEY DO NOT.

How do you KNOW Chuck Berry's tapes were sped up, were you in the studio? Nope, flyboy.

Speed correction is an arbitrary thing, I'm afraid to tell you. As you may or may not know, none of the remaining Beatles or any of their entourage remember anything, and Mark Lewisohn wasn't there, either (besides, he's useless).


I believe that if the remaining Beatles do not remember anything, it's because there probably was nothing to be remembered. Don't you think Paul might remember that, just for once, they decided to tune down their guitars out of nervousness? If anyone made the decision to play at a different pitch than usual, it was the Beatles, so if there's someone who can remember it, it's he.

Speed correction may be an arbitrary thing when you haven't got any reference. But we do know in what tone the Beatles usually played some of the songs of the Decca audition. And I use the word "usually" in spite of the fact that there's no known instance of their doing it otherwise. Now, if you mean that we cannot know whether they were tuned to A440 or to A441, there you're right. In fact, my bootleg with the "speed correction" is at a very slightly different speed than the version used in "Anthology"... But they're clearly at the same pitch. I listened to a bootleg recording with the supposedly original speed, and, as I also mentioned above, you've only got to compare the voices and the drums and decide which version sounds more natural.

Following your reasoning, how do you know it was the Beatles who recorded the audition? Were you there at the studio? No, you weren't. Was "When I'm Sixty-Four" speeded up? Or was that Paul's natural voice, and all the rest of the rougher-sounding songs were slowed down? We cannot know, can we? We weren't there. How do you know George is dead, and that it wasn't all a farce to allow him to retire to a secluded life in the Himalayas, forgotten for ever by the paparazzi? Were you there to put the pennies on his eyes? How do we know the Cro-Magnon were hunters? Has whoever stated it lived for so long? Do you usually cut every cake before you eat it, just in case the pastry cook had a funny day and put a dead mouse inside? You weren't there when he made it! Take care!

[UncaDan]

How do you KNOW Chuck Berry's tapes were sped up

Because he said so. Watch "Hail, Hail, Rock and Roll".

Varying the tape speed was/is not an uncommon practice. The Beatles used it often for different effects ("Rain" was played fast then slowed down). Read "The Complete Recording Sessions".

I have not heard enough different versions of the Decca tapes to comment on those but it wouldn't be the first time a bootlegger got it wrong.

[earwax]

And how does one know what "in tune" is? That is, how does one know these recordings ARE out of tune, since you weren't there that day?
A is 440 cycles per second. This has been the accepted standard since the mid 1950's.

The rest is based on the ASSUMPTION that they were tuned to standard pitch.

EDIT: It's probably safe to assume John was carrying a harmonica with him. Thus providing a handy reference for "standard pitch".

[El Gos Coix]

A is 440 cycles per second. This has been the accepted standard since the mid 1950's.

But for the last years there has been a tendency to tune to a higher pitch, most comonly A 442 (at least in classical music and in Europe), in accordance with the general tendency throughout history.

Anyway, I think the Beatles may have tuned to any old A available. A piano in the studio, Paul's bass or whatever.

John must have owned the only tuned harmonica in the world. Even brand new harmonicas are not usually well tuned, and after they have been used for some time, they are not, for sure. Another thing I read (I cannot say where, and I wouldn't put my head on the block for it) is that harmonicas are not tuned to A 440, but to A 442. In any case, I've never heard anyone using a harmonica as tuning reference (unless the other instruments are completely out of tune and there's no other way to know where is A, more or less).

To me, wondering whether the Beatles were tuned to A 440 or A 443 is irrelevant as far as the "pitch correction" process is concerned. What is important is whether they played at the normal concert pitch or not. And, to me, "normal concert pitch" means playing something that is nearer A than nearer Ab or A#. There's a lot of space between one note and the following, an slight variations of pitch around the note itself don't mean anything in this context. Considering everyone adjusted the speed of their record player manually, who cares about one or two Hertzs?

[dmpc]

I avoid Lewisohn's garbage like I avoid the plague.

Because he said so. Watch "Hail, Hail, Rock and Roll".

Varying the tape speed was/is not an uncommon practice. The Beatles used it often for different effects ("Rain" was played fast then slowed down). Read "The Complete Recording Sessions".

I have not heard enough different versions of the Decca tapes to comment on those but it wouldn't be the first time a bootlegger got it wrong.

[dmpc]

If the Beatles DO know what went on, then how does one explain Paul not remembering who played bass on You Never Give Me Your Money?

[El Gos Coix]

Who said the Beatles knew and remembered everything? Not remembering something may mean it did or did not happen, but something that didn't happen cannot be remembered, in principle. It's easy to see how Paul cannot remember who finally played what in a certain song if everyone in the sudio (and, for literal minds, I'd like to clarify that by "everyone" I mean Paul, John and George) had a go at it, as I'm sure must have often happened. But a change in the tuning of the instruments because they were so nervous about the audition, being something completely uncommon and premeditated, is much more likely to be remembered.

[earwax]

I would consider it highly unlikely for a band to do tape speed manipulation on a live demo tape. I would also think that tuning to a non-standard pitch would be unlikely as that can really mess with a vocalist's performance.

While they might not have been tuned precisely, you can bet they were in the ballpark. I would be more apt to suspect slight differences in the speeds of the machine it was recorded on vs the machne it was played back on. (Especially if it ever saw a transfer to cassette in it's lineage.)

[dmpc]

I would consider it highly unlikely for a band to do tape speed manipulation on a live demo tape. I would also think that tuning to a non-standard pitch would be unlikely as that can really mess with a vocalist's performance.

While they might not have been tuned precisely, you can bet they were in the ballpark. I would be more apt to suspect slight differences in the speeds of the machine it was recorded on vs the machne it was played back on. (Especially if it ever saw a transfer to cassette in it's lineage.)

Which would imply a "speed correction" then and not 30 some odd years later...

I would suspect someone would have corrected it a LONG time ago (in like 1962?), as Brian was using that demo to market the Beatles. Otherwise, he was just being DUMB, and no wonder why only Parlophone wanted them.

[Legs]

I'm sure the original tapes at that time were fine. Also I don't think the Beatles decided on performing the songs differently. It's somewhere down the line with the transfers of these tapes, and thus going down furture away from the original source, things can go wrong where a pitch corrections later on are needed.

In short it depends on which bootleg is the nearest to the source tape that gets you the best version, did they use the bootleg singles of the material for example or did they work with tape and if so how many generations removed from the original source tape.

There are many bootlegs and the debate as what's the best version will go on for a long time.
I recently got the latest Dr. Ebbet's version, and to me that's where I am going to leave it at.

[earwax]

Which would imply a "speed correction" then and not 30 some odd years later...

I would suspect someone would have corrected it a LONG time ago (in like 1962?), as Brian was using that demo to market the Beatles. Otherwise, he was just being DUMB, and no wonder why only Parlophone wanted them.
No, that doesn't really imply anything.

BTW - I've never checked to see if the Deccagone singles I got through Joe Pope's Strawberry Fields in the late 70's are in "tune" or not.