I'll never go to Aruba!

[62hofner]

Had the FBI been allowed to take this case from the start, evidence would have been found, confessions would have been given, and these three punks - or at least one of them - would be in or going to prison.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071218/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/aruba_missing_teen

I can't imagine what the Holloway family has had to endure all these years. What a bunch of amatuers they had down there "investigating" this case. All I know is that I will never go to Aruba, and all Americans should boycott that place.

[jtal909]

if the world is a just place (it's not) then someday the body will be discovered and these guys will be tried.
hopefully it'll happen anyway.

what really clinches it for me is they lied originally and said that they dropped her off back at the hotel and when the surveillence tapes did not show anyone being dropped off they changed their story to having left her on the beach.

the father of the main suspect is an ex judge or something...the investigation didn't start right away...
the whole thing stinks like yesterday's diapers.

[FPSHOT]

You will understand this story is "big" out here in Dutchland. The main suspect even wrote a book about it all which had some serious 'gaps'.

It is a horrible story.

The whole story stinks...the local police failed...the three suspects have different stories but even now that they have been taken in again after a long time of silence...no evidence of their actual involvement is available.

What also is sad here that some more 'info' about Natalee came about which was not nice and will be hard to learn about for her family. Those things one really does not want to be in the open.

However the main suspect has lied about many parts of the night in question when it all happened. The other two seem to have a less role in the whole.

Additional investigators have been on this case from various countries inluding the US but they came up with nothing which could show any kind of evidence.

To boycot Aruba for this is crazy...it's like saying "Oh there was school shooting # 20 in the US and nothing is being done about it, boycot the whole nation"

[FPSHOT]

Had the FBI been allowed to take this case from the start, evidence would have been found, confessions would have been given, and these three punks - or at least one of them - would be in or going to prison.

I have read a lot about this extremely sad case and also about the FBI in general... and really... to say this is just not the best thing to do...

To be a parent with a lost child.. knowing someone is involved and/or responsable... but there is no evidence to nail the one ... or... to find out what really happened...is one of the worst things you can experience as a parent

[62hofner]

Yes, perhaps boycotting Aruba woud be a bit much. But, when I read that the case was being closed for good (for now???), my heart broke for that family. My reaction was immediate and angry.

Like jtal909 said, the fact that they lied at first - placing the initial suspicion on those security guards - and then changed their story smacks of guilt. I wonder how big a part that crooked judge played in the initial cover-up.

I'm sure Natalie had a wild side to her, and stuff that the family would rather not learn about could come out. But, no promiscuous behavior deserves murder.

[FPSHOT]

well a case is never really closed...so there may be an opening somewhere in the future

The judge you guys refer to has been proven not to be crooky and has not much to do with the whole...I guess you base that on knowledge about US judges LOL...sorry...couldn't resist

Btw....a vessel named Persistence from Texas Equuesearch (TES), an organisation who searches for missing Americans, is now going to investigate the waters around Aruba with special equipment..they started I believe yesterday

[62hofner]

well a case is never really closed...so there may be an opening somewhere in the future

The judge you guys refer to has been proven not to be crooky and has not much to do with the whole...I guess you base that on knowledge about US judges LOL...sorry...couldn't resist

Btw....a vessel named Persistence from Texas Equuesearch (TES), an organisation who searches for missing Americans, is now going to investigate the waters around Aruba with special equipment..they started I believe yesterday

Well, I guess one who lives in a country where O.J. Simpson could be aquitted shouldn't talk! :laugh5:

I'd be willing to bet that, at the very least, "Van der Sloot the elder" gave his son some good advice when this all started.
But, seriously... that's very interesting about the specially equipped vessel. Who knows!

[FPSHOT]

I have seen this "van der S the young one" in interviews where he says he is an easy liar... it does not prove anything.. but he sure is 'smart'...yet at the same time not so smart saying things of which his dad probably from a judge's view would say "better not".

I so much hope Natalee will be found

[Legs]

How tragic the case might be, how many faulths there has been made I don't think a boycot will solve anything.
There are many cases elsewhere in the the world where murder cases don't get solved, where murders are being released because of lack of evidence.

This case has been blown up imo by the U.S. media, and this call for a boycot, not by you Hofner but by the media and some people in the U.S. makes me angry also.

[FPSHOT]

This case has been blown up imo by the U.S. media, and this call for a boycot, not by you Hofner but by the media and some people in the U.S. makes me angry also.

exactly.....

[62hofner]

How tragic the case might be, how many faulths there has been made I don't think a boycot will solve anything.
There are many cases elsewhere in the the world where murder cases don't get solved, where murders are being released because of lack of evidence.

This case has been blown up imo by the U.S. media, and this call for a boycot, not by you Hofner but by the media and some people in the U.S. makes me angry also.

Well, I don't think you can really blow-up a case of a missing - presumed murdered - American teen in a foriegn land too much. It's big news here for obvious reasons.

And the totally botched investigation by the Aruban authorities (nine days before arresting the obvious suspects???) has only exacerbated things over here. As I said originally... an FBI investigation from day 1 would have gotten these three guys.

[Legs]

Ofcourse it's blown up. How many people get killed in the U.S. every day, and how much was that in the news? But one U.S. girl gets killed in a different country and it's in the news everyday, and if the case doesn't get solved that whole country is to blame and it should be boycoted.

[62hofner]

I think there is a lot of interest in this case here because one - potentially three - guilty people are getting away with murder. It's why the O.J. Simpson "case" will never be laid to rest over here. Not until he admits he murdered his ex-wife and her friend - or until some other form of ultimate justice ocurrs.

Same goes for this Holloway case. Until Van de Sloot and/or the Kalpoe Bros. admit guilt - to whatever degree it may be - the case will always be in the media over here. I'm sure, being a Netherlander, you are tired of this being in the news.

True, many people are killed every day. But particular interest is paid to certain cases because they strike nerve. A young pretty teen vanishes mysteriously in a foreign island and three highly suspect persons of interest somehow keep beating the authorities. It makes a great story whereas some derelict killed over a bag of dope does not.

The latest (how can you refer to someone as "dead" unless you know?):

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071220/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/aruba_missing_teen

[jtal909]

they released info today of chats that new technology pulled off one of their computers that he said she's dead.
and lots of phone activity between the 3 of them into the morning of that night.
and nervous behaviour by one of the bros the next day.
still not enough to prosecute it's too circumstantial they say.
when they just recently pulled them back in to answer this new evidence they refused to talk.

how do these guys sleep at night...

[62hofner]

they released info today of chats that new technology pulled off one of their computers that he said she's dead.
and lots of phone activity between the 3 of them into the morning of that night.
and nervous behaviour by one of the bros the next day.
still not enough to prosecute it's too circumstantial they say.
when they just recently pulled them back in to answer this new evidence they refused to talk.

how do these guys sleep at night...

I hope they are haunted by nightmares for the rest of their lives until one of them can't take it any longer and cracks.

Yeah, first there was the lie about where they dropped her off that night - which is enough to convict as far as I am concerned. Why lie if you've got nothing to hide? Now, they "won't talk" about the new evidence so they're let go and the case is closed? Pretty lame pursuit of the truth if you ask me.

Did any of them ever take a polygraph, or did they refuse? Not that it would have mattered. They could all fail yet they'd still be out walking down there!

[FPSHOT]

they released info today of chats that new technology pulled off one of their computers that he said she's dead.
and lots of phone activity between the 3 of them into the morning of that night.

we had that "news" about 4 weeks ago...which was the main reason for picking the guys up again. I guess "news" doesn't travel that fast in the US.

I am far from tired about this case. I wish it would have a solution.

However to assume that the FBI could solve this in no time is just sad and wrong in my opinion, sorry. They are not really 100% waterproof are they? And do not solve all crimes committed in the US or find each missing person do they?

One needs 'proof' to get the right person found guilty and sofar the 'proof' is not there...which is terrible but is just how things are. One can not just lock up Van der S without that. It is not even sure what he is supposed to be guilty for. For leaving her behind on the beach...for killing her.. there are quite some scenarios as to why she disappeared and that is one of the key issues here.

I also wonder why now suddenly this case is brought forward..it's not like it happened yesterday?

Tragedies like this...just like the Maddie case... are horrifying...so to simply imply that the FBI would have solved it in no time does not do any good.

[beatlebangs1964]

JTAL, it stinks worse than yesterday's diapers - it stinks like a year's supply of dirty diapers! This case was bungled from the get go!

[hibgal]

The problem seems to be the evidence, as FP points out. As of now, Natalee is only a missing person, presumed dead. There are no witnesses forthcoming, no physical evidence, nothing but a missing girl and three guys acting suspicious. It's not enough to believe a person guilty, you must prove it too.

Give this a thought, Hof: In a US court, the evidence the Aruba authorites do possess would not have been enough to even arrest these guys. Aruba has much more leeway in the circumstantial evidence department than the US, but not even they can produce something from nothing. They need either a confession, a witness or the body, none of which they've got. As to the FBI, the very fact a confession was extracted through "persuasion" might well make it inadmissible in court!

[62hofner]

As to the FBI, the very fact a confession was extracted through "persuasion" might well make it inadmissible in court!

If an e-mail that states that she is "dead" isn't enough to get some hardcore interrogators in on the deal, what is?

My point/s regarding the FBI is that had the crime been committed in The U.S., those three would have been hustled into the Police station immediately before they could do anything to cover their tracks and get their stories straight. The FBI would have been all over them like flies to sh*t, the momentum would have been seized, and one of them would have slipped up and implicated themselves or the others.

But, then again..... "we dropped her off at the hotel".....
"What, no surveilance video of us dropping her off? Uhhh... we left her on the beach!" = GUILTY!

In short - and it's been stated here a few times already - the investigation was a shoddy bungled mess! And THAT is what is so maddening for Americans who are more used to effective crime solving.

[FPSHOT]

And THAT is what is so maddening for Americans who are more used to effective crime solving.

you really wanna start a debate on this? I am quite ready for that :smile1:

I understand your patriotic feelings but I think this is a bit too much?

Btw...I take it that you know that the FBI has been directly involved in this case just about immediately after the disappearing ...on Aruba ....without any result....

[hibgal]

The operative word being "immediately". Look, I'm not saying it wasn't bungled BUT, the girl wasn't reported missing until she didn't show up for her flight the next afternoon. Assuming they killed her, plenty of time to cover their tracks and agree on what to tell the police. When did these three become chief suspects? Several days later, right? When was the chat session (not email btw) retrieved from the harddrive? This year, which is why they arrested the guys again.

As to America's "effective crime solving", don't make me laugh! They couldn't commit Blake either and the evidence against him was many time stronger than against these guys. They have yet to convict Phil Spector and personally I consider him guilty as sin. They could do nothing against Scott Petersen until Lacie's body floated ashore. What about Dough Petersen (no relative) who's wife's been missing for over a month now? She's still a missing person although there is no evidence she's alive and HE has acted quite as suspiciously as these guys. Plus his former wife died by drowning in an empty bathtub, now considered homicide disguised as accident, and he's not even charged with the crime!

Please. Be proud of the US justice system if you want, just don't expect everyone to agree with you!

[FPSHOT]

Please. Be proud of the US justice system if you want, just don't expect everyone to agree with you!

Me !!!!!!!!!!!!

I could add some names to your little list LOL

what happened with the chat is that the Aruba police followed phone and chat conversations of the three for a long time... so that chat session was indeed what made them being picked up

But... you are only found missing the moment you are actally missed? She was on Aruba with friends but as far as I know they assumed she spent the night 'elsewhere'

[Legs]

The only difference between Natalie's case and all the murder/disapearance cases that happened in the U.S. is that this case happened outside the U.S.
That's why people over there keep bringing it up and it's in the news all the time. Otherwise the reactioin would be, oh another murder happened how said, and the next minute it's forgotten.

[jtal909]

Btw...I take it that you know that the FBI has been directly involved in this case just about immediately after the disappearing ...on Aruba ....without any result....

If I recall, for some nationalistic reason, the FBI were not allowed evidence for quite some time.
The whole delayed investigation gave time for a cover up.
That elder Vandersloot must be a connected politician.

[FPSHOT]

The elder Vandersloot is a judge who was arrested as suspect too at the same time as his son.

I know the US media at the time have blown up what kind of place Aruba is... which was sad and untrue... it's not as bad as they have fantasised .. there is "some" drugs trade yes ... but I would say there is some of that done in the US too...apart from that it is mainly a popular holiday resort....

The FBI mention on their website that the dissapearing was discovered in the early morning at the hotel when Natalee did not show up to leave for the airport, so not 'much later' as suggested somewhere here.

It is clear that things have gone wrong in the investigation... no doubt about that ... but the FBI have been involved in the search and the documents about the dissapearing a few days after she was missing.

Who is supposed to do a 'cover-up' is very unclear to me JT and even if the Aruban investigators made mistakes..it sure was not intended and whereas many separate investigators have been busy on this case looking for traces.. nothing has come up. Dutch special investigators did a very thorough search in the case 2 months after the dissappearing without result...reported amongst others to the FBI who reported back that they would not have done it differently.

Still... the fact remains that evidence has to show up and prove which kind of involvement Van der S or the two others have had. That is clear to all authorities working on this...including the FBI.

No doubt the FBI is better equiped than the local police on an island... however to indicate that they would have found Natalee or would have been able to take in whoever did what... is unfair..too patriotic ..not right for the family of Natalee.. and based on not much I'd say since they were involved and with a missing person...it does not so much matter if things are 'found' the first day after the missing is reported. A huge search went out right away.. FBI included.. but you should be aware of the circumstances on this small island with a lot of water around it.

So as for those victories thoughts regarding the FBI I very much disagree... however I have seen quite some interviews with the key suspect and tv things about the whole horrid case and do have my serious thoughts about it and can not imagine he is not involved in some way.

[jtal909]

Not apprehending the "alleged" perpetrators immediately gave them time to clean up after themselves and plan, and the elder VSL being a judge is capable of expert legal advice.
No matter how honest a judge is, and to become a judge you would think that one would be chosen on integrity, when your kid's life is at stake you don't know how he will react.

I don't know how this is a patriotic thing.
as far as I'm concerned, the same thing could happen is some small town in Arkansas, not as glamorous as Aruba, but the FBI would have jurisdiction within the US.

The simple fact is the FBI were not immediately given all the evidence that the Aruban authorites had at first.
would it have made a difference we'll never know it just seems to me that the local authorites were at first dragging their feet, possibly due to Vandersloots influence, until media pressure made this a different investigation. I would imagine on a small island surrounded by water a judge has major influence.
I would also think that an island that thrives on vacationing wouldn't want the publicity that their natives committed such a crime against a vacationer.

Yes, Hof, this particular case has struck a nerve.
Maybe because it's the glamor of vacationing on an island and maybe because it's so obvious yet can't be proven, not unlike OJ.

It's hard to imagine also that on a small island there was no physical evidence found...that was reported anyway.

[FPSHOT]

Well I will let you have the understanding that the FBI will just solve any case. We will not agree there but that is okay with me... I trust they have a great reputation and track record...just like the CIA...which name I happened to see in the news..

You may know that before the three men constantly talked about here were arrasted ...also various other suspects were arrested which was shown in the US media as the big event and solution with pictures and names of the...innocent... men involved.

To indicate the FBI can trace a missing person who just vanished from 'the earth' is a big step which I find quite discussable.

Maybe read back a bit on how the FBI interrupted the research done by the Police at Aruba about Natalee's background.

Anyways...it is a horrid situation and if the almighty FBI could solve this..then that would be most valuable to all involved and I can not imagine the FBI let themselves be pushed aside by the Aruba/Dutch investigaters had they found good reason to be on top of it.

There was no immediate 'evidence'. She disappeared... 4000 people searched the beaches to find a clue and didn't..

To suggest Vandersloot's influence had an impact is a bit sad.. sorry..ofcourse he will help his son.. but the high level investigators which have been on this case...so many...including FBI.. have come nowhere... and would most certainly have made sure that the Dad could not do a sort of maffiozo thing.

But it is good for you to feel so good about the FBI and their work. I just do not agree.. which is not because this is a Dutch case because the thought this case stinks I very much share.

[jtal909]

I understand your patriotism, FSHOT, defending the Dutch investigation, but the FBI does not have jurisdiction outside of the US and had to wait until they were allowed access to info, whatever it was at the time. Why is that?

We don't have to turn this into another USA vs the rest of the world discussion it just isn't like that and that's not the point.

It took, what, 9 days to bring in the people last seen with Natalee?
What's up with that?

[FPSHOT]

I have said a few times.... for me it is no patriotic Dutch thing because I agree the case stinks big time...and that many mistakes have been made by the somewhat amateuristic local police.

It's just that I object to the thought that the FBI would have solved it... they are not exactly free from errors in judgement I believe?

[hibgal]

Where is Jimmy Hoffa?

[jtal909]

he's buried under the concrete at the Meadowlands Giant's Stadium.
Everybody in Jersey knows that :)

[MaccaGirl2891]

He was born in my home state. So was Michael Jackson. Luckily, not in my town.

[FPSHOT]

There is a development in this 'case'.

Dutch crime reporter and investigator claims he has solved it and knows what happened. He will reveal it all in a tv program next Sunday.

Natalee's Mom is in Holland now and has already heard what has happened according to what de Vries claims to be the real story.

There are no specific details yet, but unfortunately it is quite clear that poor Natalee is not alive.