Unidentified guitar

[El Gos Coix]

This is a picture of some of the Beatles' guitars, taken backstage somewhere, I suppose.

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/3657/beatles527vc7.jpg

One can easily spot both of Paul's 500/1 basses, John's second 325 Rickenbacker, George's second 12-string Ric and Gibson ES-345, one of the Gibson J-160E guitars (I suppose it's the second one John had, since that would make two guitars -one main, another backup- for each Beatle). However, in the middle of it all, there is a black Stratocaster that I cannot identify. By the time this pic was taken (late 1965, because of the ES-345) George and John had already got their two Stratocasters. I don't know of any change of looks in these guitars until George painted his in a psychedelic way in 1967. Does anyone know whether he or John had their Fenders painted black before late 1965? If not, who's guitar is that?

[62hofner]

I don't see the picture.

Anyway... the book "Beatles Gear" - which is the end-all of authorities on every instrument the Beatles so much as touched - makes no mention of a black Stratocaster. The only Strats John and George owned were their Sonic Blue ones.

Are you 100% sure it's a Strat? There are some other various guitars that passed through their hands in the mid 60's. If I could see the pic maybe I could identify it.

[FPSHOT]

I am trying to find the 12 string....

[El Gos Coix]

I don't see the picture.

Anyway... the book "Beatles Gear" - which is the end-all of authorities on every instrument the Beatles so much as touched - makes no mention of a black Stratocaster. The only Strats John and George owned were their Sonic Blue ones.

Are you 100% sure it's a Strat? There are some other various guitars that passed through their hands in the mid 60's. If I could see the pic maybe I could identify it.


I do see it... Well, it's the first picture you see here (http://www.thecanteen.com/fabguitars.html). I cannot tell with a 100% certainty it's a black Strat, but it's a very Fenderish-looking dark guitar (and if it's not a Strat, it's a very similar model). As far as I rememeber, the "Beatles Gear" book doesn't say anything about any of the Beatles owning or borrowing (or, as you say, so much as touching) such a guitar. It doesn't mention, either, that any of the light blue guitars was painted black or went through any modification, apart from that of George's in 1967 and later. I would be really surprised if John had had his painted black (as he did with his first Rickenbacker) and that book hadn't mentioned it! But then, where has that guitar come from?


I am trying to find the 12 string....

Do you mean in the pic, or in life in general? :teeth1: Because if you don't see the pic, them you should be trying to find them all, and if you do see it, well, you seem you've identified all the guitars but that one, and in that case, it's the one you haven't identified! :teeth1: :teeth1: It's on the keyboard, to the left. By the way, it seems to be prepared for "If I Needed Someone", with that capo on the 7th fret.

[FPSHOT]

Do you mean in the pic, or in life in general? :teeth1: Because if you don't see the pic, them you should be trying to find them all, and if you do see it, well, you seem you've identified all the guitars but that one,

LOL thanks... I have a 12 string acoustic myself :):) and a capo :)

Got it now yeah

http://www.seaofgreen.org/images/guitar.jpg


and in that case, it's the one ..........

It's not in the case but on it :wink1:

[El Gos Coix]

Lucky you, you own a 12-string guitar :smoking2:. I'd like to have one like that in the pic you've posted. However, that's not the same guitar as that in the pic I posted. The guitar in your pic is George's first 12-string Ric, while the other's the second (you can tell them apart easily because the second one has rounded edges and the first one hasn't, and theirs are binded in white instead).


It's not in the case but on it :wink1:

Thanks! I appreciate everything that helps to improve my English!

[FPSHOT]

Thanks! I appreciate everything that helps to improve my English!

Oh there was nothing wrong with your English...I tried to make a joke but today's not the day for that for me :smile1: you said "in this case" which is perfect English but a case is also something to put things in....whereas the guitar is on.... the case... oh just forget it :smile1:

Thanks for those additional details...you are right.. it's a different one.. I love details and I had not really checked out all yet.

[El Gos Coix]

Oh there was nothing wrong with your English...I tried to make a joke but today's not the day for that for me :smile1: you said "in this case" which is perfect English but a case is also something to put things in....whereas the guitar is on.... the case... oh just forget it :smile1:

No, it must be my me whose day's not the right one... Now I get it :blush4: :teeth1:.

I love to know all those little details about Beatles' guitars. Like being able to say, when seeing an Epiphone Casino, whether it's Paul's, George's or John's, or which one of the two Country Gentleman guitars George's holding in a picture... Kinda fun, or kinda insanity.

[El Gos Coix]

No, it must be my me whose day's not the right one...

No comment.

[FPSHOT]

No, it must be my me whose day's not the right one...

I can assure you I disagree :smile2: or say... same here

[PepperlandFrog]

Seriously El Gos Coix the guitar in question is a 6 string. Count the tuning pegs, you can't go wrong.

[jtal909]

it sure looks like a strat to me

I don't think there were many if any knockoffs in those days
besides, the Beatles would most certainly get a fender

[kmac]

Looks like a Strat headstock and body to me as well; also, it sure doesn't look like its shading would be representative of a sonic blue. I will have to look into this further, now that you have piqued my gear interest.

[FPSHOT]

Seriously El Coix Gos the guitar in question is a 6 string. Count the tuning pegs, you can't go wrong.

that was my initial thought too

[kmac]

Frog and FP, the Ric 360-12 is a little deceiving at first glance because it had only 6 pegs. If you blow up the picture you can barely make out the extra set of tuning knobs. The headstock is slotted to accommodate the extra set. Hope that helps.

[El Gos Coix]

kmac, I think that "the guitar in question" in PepperlandFrog's posting was the black Strat (in which six tuning pegs can be clearly seen). What I don't know is whether Frog pointed it out thinking that FPSHOT and I had been considering the possibility of its having 12 strings (we have drifted to speak of another guitar) or whether he was just giving a clue to identify it. Unluckily, that's not a crucial tip when it comes to discard guitar models! :teeth1: But you're right: the method devised by Rickenbacker to place all 12 tuning pegs in the headstock makes six of them difficult to spot some times. I think that the slots in the headstock with six pegs below it is a very clever solution to prevent the headstock from being too big and heavy.

http://www.thecanteen.com/head.jpg


The guitar I was asking about is not painted sonic blue, certainly. Had it been dark blue, the doubt would have been there, but sonic blue is a very light shade of blue, so that's out of the question. It must be a very dark colour, if not black. I've got a book about Fender guitars, but I haven't been able to find it anywhere in the mess that I've got as a home! However, I don't recall that they made another model that can be mistook for a Stratocaster (as could be the case with a Esquire, a Broadcaster or a Telecaster, depending on the angle or distance from which the pic was taken). The headstock is of the small type, like that in George's and John's Strats, but I don't think that means anything, since I think that the big headstock wasn't introduced until the seventies. The fretboard is dark, like those in the sonic blue Strats the Beatles owned, the number of frets is the same... But I cannot spot any other detail (like the number of screws holding the scratchplate) that might help determining whether it is one of the Beatles's Strats painted black. Unlike the sonic blue Strats, the guitar in the pic has a dark headstock, but I suppose that in case one of them was sprayed black, the headstock would have been plainted black, too (as happened with John's 325).

However, as I said before, although all this means that it could be one of the two known Beatle Strats painted black, I would be very surprised if this had happened and wasn't mentioned anywhere. Besides, I don't recall these guitars being used in live shows by the Beatles, not even as backup guitars (although I might be wrong here), so what is that guitar doind there, as if waiting to be taken on stage along with all the rest (look at the capo on the 12-string, they're all ready for action!)?

Perhaps it's just that a musician from a supporting act took this pic of his own guitar standing there among the Beatles' gear, as a memento of the show. It could be, what do you think?

[El Gos Coix]

Oh, and now I realize something I hadn't seen before. There's a Trixon case to the right of the pic (I don't know whether it's a cymbal case or the lid of a drum case). Did Ringo use anything Trixon?

[62hofner]

Well... now I see the pic.

Yeah, that is definitely a Fender Strat. I will need to go back to my "Beatles Gear" book and try to find a reference to a Strat other than a Sonic Blue one. I will get back ASAP on this. Perhaps it was a "borrowed" axe for that one particular show(???).

El Gos, you need to buy this book. It's a Beatle guitar-o-phile's heaven! You mentioned wanting to be able to identify the three separate Casinos that the Beatles owned....?

Well, Paul's is an earlier model, so you can identify it from the headstock which is the shorter "Gibson" style headstock. That is the main distingushers between Paul's Casino and the others'. Of course, Paul's also has a Bigsby tremelo.

John and George, as you probably know, bought there Casinos over a year after Paul did, and so there models have the longer "Epi" headstock. The one main differentiating factor between John and George's - and it's a pretty obvious one - is thast George's has the Bigsby tremelo while John's has the standard "trapeze" tailpeice. One strange little difference between John's and George's is that John's has a black "grommet" surrounding his pick-up selector switch. The other two Beatles' Casinos did not have this little anomoly.

Beatle guitars are a great source of joy and wonder for me. It appears to be the same with you.

:thumbu2:

[PepperlandFrog]

Frog and FP, the Ric 360-12 is a little deceiving at first glance because it had only 6 pegs. If you blow up the picture you can barely make out the extra set of tuning knobs. The headstock is slotted to accommodate the extra set. Hope that helps.Thank you kmac. i didn't do that as i wasn't able to, the tuning pegs did look a little strange with those extra boxes.
kmac, I think that "the guitar in question" in PepperlandFrog's posting was the black Strat (in which six tuning pegs can be clearly seen). What I don't know is whether Frog pointed it out thinking that FPSHOT and I had been considering the possibility of its having 12 strings (we have drifted to speak of another guitar) or whether he was just giving a clue to identify it. Unluckily, that's not a crucial tip when it comes to discard guitar models! :teeth1: But you're right: the method devised by Rickenbacker to place all 12 tuning pegs in the headstock makes six of them difficult to spot some times. I think that the slots in the headstock with six pegs below it is a very clever solution to prevent the headstock from being too big and heavy.

http://www.thecanteen.com/head.jpg No El Gos Coix, that is not the case, i was almost certain the Rickenbacker was only a six string, though those extra tuning boxes did look a bit strange. The Fender Strat is obviously a six string, no confusion there.

[PepperlandFrog]

it sure looks like a strat to me

I don't think there were many if any knockoffs in those days
besides, the Beatles would most certainly get a fenderIt's a fender strat, no doubt about it.

[Ch.Jansen]

Since the black strat has a matching headstock it is probably younger than the blue ones John and George used in the studio. Maybe it´s just a backup instrument? The Beatle Gear book doesn´t mention this guitar at all.

[62hofner]

Since the black strat has a matching headstock it is probably younger than the blue ones John and George used in the studio. Maybe it´s just a backup instrument? The Beatle Gear book doesn´t mention this guitar at all.

Yeah, I don't recall ever seeing it in "Beatles Gear" and I've read thru that book like my life depended on it (which it does, really :laugh5: ).

[jtal909]

a friend of mine saw this and made an interesting comment that this must be somewhere in a recording studio because they didn't use the strat or John's accoustic guitar live in those days.

we didn't see a Beatle using a strat until the video for Hello Goodbye

[62hofner]

a friend of mine saw this and made an interesting comment that this must be somewhere in a recording studio because they didn't use the strat or John's accoustic guitar live in those days.

we didn't see a Beatle using a strat until the video for Hello Goodbye

John did use his Gibson J-160E live for shows like the 1965 NME Poll awards. The photo below is tiny, but you can clearly make out the large acoustic body guitar John is playing (probably for "I Feel Fine"). You can see it on the Anthology DVD as well.

http://www.beatlesource.com/TV/65.04.11.jpg

However, that photo could very well have been taken in the studio - and probably was.

[El Gos Coix]

El Gos, you need to buy this book. It's a Beatle guitar-o-phile's heaven! You mentioned wanting to be able to identify the three separate Casinos that the Beatles owned....?

(...)

Beatle guitars are a great source of joy and wonder for me. It appears to be the same with you.


Well, I do have that book. How could I not have it, being nuts about Beatle guitars? :teeth1: In fact, I tried to mention the fact when I answered to your first posting in this thread, but I suppose that, once more, my English grammar and my convoluted mind make me write things that no one can understand apart from me! :teeth1: :teeth1: :teeth1: The example about the Casinos is something I mentioned to let FPSHOT know what kind of small details I like to know. To some people, knowing that a guitar is a Casino will do (to others, knowing it is a guitar will do), but when I see a Casino in a pic, I like to know which of the three it is! I think that "Beatles Gear" is a must; as a matter of fact, I remember I placed it in number 2 in that thread about our top 5 Beatles books (and I've got more than eighty).




Since the black strat has a matching headstock it is probably younger than the blue ones John and George used in the studio. Maybe it´s just a backup instrument? The Beatle Gear book doesn´t mention this guitar at all.

I had no idea about that. When did matching headstocks and bodies start to be made? It's true that John's and George's guitars didn't have the headstock blue, like the body. I assumed that, in case they had one of them painted black, they would have had the headstock painted, too, but if it's another guitar, then the matching colours might help to know something else about them. However, the Beatles received their two Strats during sessions for "Help!", that is, during the first half od 1965, and the presence of the ES-345 in the pic seems to date it in late 1965, so the black Strat couldn't be much younger than the blue ones... Oh, well, after writing all this, I seem to remember that the blue guitars were of a previous model, not the latest model when they were bought, was it so?

In any case... I've just remembered a pic of John with his granny glasses playing the blue guitar, so if one of the two was painted black by this time, then it was George's... And I don't think he did it, to me it's more like John. Now I'm almost sure it's another guitar.


we didn't see a Beatle using a strat until the video for Hello Goodbye

Is there a Strat in the video of "Hello, Goodbye"? Maybe I've not spotted it, or maybe I haven't seen the right video (I've seen three, although I don't know well how many there are), but I only remember George's Casino and John's Martin D-28 in those videos.


a friend of mine saw this and made an interesting comment that this must be somewhere in a recording studio because they didn't use the strat or John's accoustic guitar live in those days.

However, that photo could very well have been taken in the studio - and probably was.

I hadn't thought of that. And now you've made me think of it :teeth1:, I must say I disagree. I think it must be backstage, before of after a show. So many guitars arranged like that, together with the capo, the keyboard and the drum cases... It's hard for me to believe they had them like that at the studio. It looks so much as the Beatles' typical live set of guitars... To me, what sticks out like a sore thumb is Paul's first bass. It must be a backup bass for playing live; I don't think he had his two Höfners out in the studio, mainly when by 1965 he already had his Rickenbaker in case he wanted to alternate two bass guitars when recording. I still think it's backstage.

[El Gos Coix]

Look, for example, at these pics of the 8th December 1965 show in Sheffield:

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9716/8dec65aeb6.jpg

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/6350/8dec65cyy2.jpg

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/3164/8dec65dab4.jpg

It's all there: the same guitars, the keyboard... The only guitar that cannot be spotted here is Paul's first bass, but it's easy to find other pics in which it can be seen near Ringo's dais (it usually wasn't so at hand as the others' guitars, since this bass guitar was indeed used only as a backup in case the newer one had any problem, unlike George and John, who used both of their two guitars depending on the song). Don't you think that the pic with the Strat looks too much like it?

[62hofner]

I hadn't thought of that. And now you've made me think of it :teeth1:, I must say I disagree. I think it must be backstage, before of after a show. So many guitars arranged like that, together with the capo, the keyboard and the drum cases... It's hard for me to believe they had them like that at the studio. It looks so much as the Beatles' typical live set of guitars... To me, what sticks out like a sore thumb is Paul's first bass. It must be a backup bass for playing live; I don't think he had his two Höfners out in the studio, mainly when by 1965 he already had his Rickenbaker in case he wanted to alternate two bass guitars when recording. I still think it's backstage.

It could have been taken at either studio or venue... each guess is as good as the next. I ws looking at the "baseboard" (for lack of a better description) of the floor where the guitars are placed. Hmmm.... no clues there.

By the way - one other note of interest that has not yet been mentioned regarding this mystery Stratocaster....

There's no way that it is one of the Sonic Blue models painted-over. The Sonic Blue Strats both had maple necks. The Strat pictured here clearly has a rosewood neck. So it's a completely different Strat.

[62hofner]

I've been thinking, El Gos....

You may be right. This photo may be backstage - perhaps during the Sheffield shows. The fact that George, apparently, only used his Gibson ES-345 during those shows (and only used it for a few promos additionally), it would lead one to conclude that a touring guitar would be backstage and not in a recording studio... and I doubt they would amass all their guitars at a TV studio for filming some promos.

[62hofner]

I must correct the comment I made earlier regarding the necks of John and George's Strats.... they both had the dark rosewood fretboard and not the lighter maple. So.....

[jtal909]

that live photo has the accoustic in the back.
It does look like a liv e collection except for the strat.
didn't George play a painted strat in hello goodbye video?

[62hofner]

that live photo has the accoustic in the back.
It does look like a liv e collection except for the strat.
didn't George play a painted strat in hello goodbye video?

Yeah, but that was "Rocky"... his psychedelic-painted Sonic Blue Strat from the "Nowhere Man" days.

[62hofner]

OK!.....

First off, El Gos coix was right - this photo was taken backstage at the Sheffield show. This is confirmed in "Beatles Gear", page 175.

Secondly, on the same page, this mysterious black Strat is mentioned. But Andy Babiuk can not ID it for certain. He conjectures that it may simply be a "back-up 6-string" for George.

So, we may never know for certain. If Andy Babiuk can't say for certain, who can - except for George himself?... and, sadly, that is no longer a source that can be queried.

:wave1:

[El Gos Coix]

OK!.....

First off, El Gos coix was right - this photo was taken backstage at the Sheffield show. This is confirmed in "Beatles Gear", page 175.

Secondly, on the same page, this mysterious black Strat is mentioned. But Andy Babiuk can not ID it for certain. He conjectures that it may simply be a "back-up 6-string" for George.

So, we may never know for certain. If Andy Babiuk can't say for certain, who can - except for George himself?... and, sadly, that is no longer a source that can be queried.

:wave1:

:bigeyes3: :bigeyes3: :bigeyes3: :bigeyes3: :bigeyes3: :bigeyes3: :bigeyes3: Is this pic in the "Beatles Gear" book??? Gosh, gosh, and gosh!!! I had had this pic with the black Strat for some time before I bought that book, but I hadn't realized there was a strange guitar there until a few days ago. And it seems that when I read the book I didn't pay much attention to it, either! Perhaps I thought it was the same old pic I already knew and didn't give much importance to the mention of the black guitar. I must admit that I didn't go back to the book before posting this, since I thought I knew it all by heart, and that no mention to that guitar was made there. As for its being taken in Sheffield, it was just a coincidence that I posted some pics of that specific show, since I chose them only because they're the only pics I could find in which the ES-345 was present. But, as I said, what made me think it wasn't in the studio was Paul's first Höfner bass. Well, anyway, I think I'll never again trust my memory :blush4:. Thanks a lot for all that researching!




Yeah, but that was "Rocky"... his psychedelic-painted Sonic Blue Strat from the "Nowhere Man" days.

Oops... Where can I see that video? As I said before, Rocky appears in none of the videos of that song that I've got. Certainly, by the time they were filmed, George's guitar had already received its psychedelic painting. I've been taking a quick look at some clips in YouTube, but they seem to be the same ones I've already got.

[62hofner]

:bigeyes3: :bigeyes3: :bigeyes3: :bigeyes3: :bigeyes3: :bigeyes3: :bigeyes3: Is this pic in the "Beatles Gear" book??? Gosh, gosh, and gosh!!! I had had this pic with the black Strat for some time before I bought that book, but I hadn't realized there was a strange guitar there until a few days ago. And it seems that when I read the book I didn't pay much attention to it, either! Perhaps I thought it was the same old pic I already knew and didn't give much importance to the mention of the black guitar. I must admit that I didn't go back to the book before posting this, since I thought I knew it all by heart, and that no mention to that guitar was made there. As for its being taken in Sheffield, it was just a coincidence that I posted some pics of that specific show, since I chose them only because they're the only pics I could find in which the ES-345 was present. But, as I said, what made me think it wasn't in the studio was Paul's first Höfner bass. Well, anyway, I think I'll never again trust my memory :blush4:. Thanks a lot for all that researching!






Oops... Where can I see that video? As I said before, Rocky appears in none of the videos of that song that I've got. Certainly, by the time they were filmed, George's guitar had already received its psychedelic painting. I've been taking a quick look at some clips in YouTube, but they seem to be the same ones I've already got.

First off... yes, it slipped my mind when I responded to jtal909's post. George plays his Casino in the "Hello Goodbye" video. I guess we were all thinking of the "I Am The Walrus" "video".

El Gos.... that pic is not actually shown in "Beatles Gear". But if you'll take a look on page 175, Andy Babiuk mentions the photo in the text.

[El Gos Coix]

El Gos.... that pic is not actually shown in "Beatles Gear". But if you'll take a look on page 175, Andy Babiuk mentions the photo in the text.

Of course, that's the first thing I'll look when I arrive home (I didn't sleep there last night, or I would have already had a look at that page!) Thanks!

I suppose that the book doesn't mention who took the pic (since you haven't said anything about it). I still think it could have been taken by a member of one of the supporting acts (who were the supporting acts that day?), who placed his own guitar among the Beatles'. It may sound silly, but I think it's the kind of thing I'd do (apart from trying to have another picture taken of myself with the Beatles!) But it's so strange that not even Andy Babiuk can trace the origin of this guitar...