Was John Homophobic?

[Loony_leo]

I was skimming through some live journal discussions the other day, and someone said John was very homophobic, and had tormented Brian Epstein.

I've never heard anything like that before. I'd always heard that he was very fascinated by Brian's sexuality, and asked him if he found certain men attractive.

And didn't he also have a lot of homosexual friends in New York?

And also didn't he say in one of his final interviews that he thought "People have the right to marry or not marry whoever they want." or something along those lines?

[Lucy]

I don't think John was a homophobe in the true sense of the word - if he had been, he wouldn't have had anything to do with Brian except to beat him to a pulp.

I don't think calling someone something like a "queer" on every occassion equates to homophobia...I mean it isn't very nice but it isn't always necesarrily said with malice (but yeah of course sometimes it is so that doesn't really make it right). Obviously I don't think it is nice to label anyone as anything and isn't something that I do, believe me! I think the point I am trying to make is that that alone wouldn't define John as homophobic.

And yeah I know that quote you are referring to. He did say something along those lines.

[ringo_rama]

He wrote a limerick introduction for some early 70s book about gay culture, something like 'Why make it sad to be gay? Doing your own thing is ok...[can't remember the next two lines]...so go play with yourself today.'

Of course he also suggested that Brian Epstein call A Cellarful of Noise "Queer Jew."

[oldbeatlechick]

I don't think John was homophobic at all, I remember reading something somewhere that he enjoyed teasing Brian and could be cruel at times, but I think this was just John being John with no malicious intent, mischevious maybe!! He was doing what John loved doing trying to get a reaction, which he often did! I do not believe he would have gone to Spain with Brian had he been homophobic! I agree with Lucy that while it is not a nice practice to call people queer, if you do so it does not make you homophobic.

Live and let live I say!

[BadLittleKid]

Perhaps as younger, like many people.

[Ch.Jansen]

No, I don´t think he was homophobic. I believe that John was not sure about his own sexuality, so he used to hide this behind his usual jokes (like calling Brian a "rich fag jew" in an outtake of "baby you´re a rich man :laugh5: )

Maybe he was fascinated by the way Brian and others live, sometimes you hear that John had a crush on Stuart Sutcliffe or others, so I think that´s the actual point in Lennon´s life. Who knows?

[zipp]

I seem to remember he beat up the Cavern owner because he'd said John was queer.
He was vicious with Epstein orally and sometimes physically, grabbing him by the balls at one meeting, recounted by Tony Barrow if my memory is correct.
He takes a mock homosexual pose when singing Come Together on the live album from New York.
So to say 'oh no all that was just for a laugh' is a bit hard to justify.

[BadLittleKid]

Cynthia Lennon says that he was 100% heterosexual and that John was infuriated at people who called him gay. Later on in the seventies when there was all kinds of liberation fronts it was more convenient that he displayed not such attitudes any more.

[Beatle Corinne]

I don't think it's that it was more "convenient" for him to change his tune - I think he grew as a person.

Look - I'm gay, but before I knew, or acknowledged who I was when I was a teenager, I would make homophobic jokes myself. So, I think he had his consciousness raised. Most everyone who was not gay in those days was probably a bit homophobic. Now, most, though unfortunately not all - people know better.

[Loony_leo]

No, I don´t think he was homophobic. I believe that John was not sure about his own sexuality, so he used to hide this behind his usual jokes (like calling Brian a "rich fag jew" in an outtake of "baby you´re a rich man :laugh5: )

Maybe he was fascinated by the way Brian and others live, sometimes you hear that John had a crush on Stuart Sutcliffe or others, so I think that´s the actual point in Lennon´s life. Who knows?

Makes perfect sense. And hey, Brian, Stu, and Paul, all those men who played such a big influence in his adult years were all gorgeous, and if I were John being around all those gorgeous men, and being close with them would make me reconsider too.

Or perhaps thats just my hormonal teenage fan-girl brain whirring.

Yeah, I didn't think John was homophobic. I know that there is nothing nice about those jokes, but I'm sure John didn't mean any harm of it. As Paul once said John didn't mean half the things he said.

I also should have taken the live journal comments with a grain of salt..alot of people there don't seem to like John too much... :sad1:

[Ivan P]

Anyone else read about the apparent shenanigans that John and Brian got up to once on holiday in "The Beatles and the Sixties"? I refuse to believe it.

Anyway, I don't think that John was homphobic, but he was still very, very straight.

[sourmilkpinky]

Anyway, I don't think that John was homphobic, but he was still very, very straight.

oh really?

http://www.pantherhouse.com/newshelton/wp-content/uploads/3some1971.jpg

[Ivan P]

Oh dear. Now I don't know what to think at all :S

[kmac]

Great pic Pinky, never seen this one before, very funny. I wonder what was going on in their minds here?

I think John was, at the very least, curious about the homosexual lifestyle and his cruel jokes and extreme reactions in some cases, can also suggest that he was conflicted about his thoughts on the subject, which manifested itself in crude or extreme behavior as a defensive mechanism. Often times, people joke or react in odd ways to things they do not fully understand or feel threatened by.

But what do I know, I just stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night...

[sourmilkpinky]

:laugh5: :laugh5:

I think, and this is merely my opinion....that that particular photo was taken for shock value. As so many things that threesome did back then.

And as for John's opinions on the matter.....doesn't concern me one bit.

[BadLittleKid]

John said that he loved to play gay.

[PepperlandFrog]

He's doing a bit more than playing, that much is obvious.

[Loony_leo]

hehehe I read one quote from like the mid 70's, after John and Paul had their reconciliation, that John had been trying to make it seem like Paul was gay or something...and the interviewer was like

"Ohh alot of people in the gay commuinity would be pleased to hear that!" (or somehting... I'm REALLY paraphrasing here)

to which John replied.

"Oh I've had Paul, hes no good!"

":laugh5: :laugh5:

[ringo_rama]

I seem to remember he beat up the Cavern owner because he'd said John was queer.
He was vicious with Epstein orally and sometimes physically, grabbing him by the balls at one meeting, recounted by Tony Barrow if my memory is correct.
He takes a mock homosexual pose when singing Come Together on the live album from New York.
So to say 'oh no all that was just for a laugh' is a bit hard to justify.

I don't know, you're not really helping prove any homophobia with that.

(I know that's not what you meant about being "vicious with Epstein orally" and I was all set to make a joke with that but it ended up being too blue for even me. Sorry guys.)

[Fluxus]

He ADMITTED he was homphobic in the early days, but got over it. As we all should.

[zipp]

I don't know, you're not really helping prove any homophobia with that.


He grabbed him by the balls until his eyes watered because he was a homosexual and he wanted to demean him in front of other people.
Seems pretty clear to me.

[Loony_leo]

He grabbed him by the balls until his eyes watered because he was a homosexual and he wanted to demean him in front of other people.
Seems pretty clear to me.

Where are you getting this story from? Just out of curiosity... because I remember hearing that there were a couple John biographies that were very biased and slanderous written after his death...

[PepperlandFrog]

He grabbed him by the balls until his eyes watered because he was a homosexual and he wanted to demean him in front of other people.
Seems pretty clear to me.That seems rather unLennon like. And i echo Loony_leo here, please provide some sources or validate this statement.

[BadLittleKid]

It probably was in Bob Spitz book where it was said that "after the Brian episode homosexuality never reappeared in Lennon's life".

[zipp]

Where are you getting this story from? Just out of curiosity... because I remember hearing that there were a couple John biographies that were very biased and slanderous written after his death...

I'll anwer you, Looney, since you started the thread.
I've already said I thought it was from Tony Barrow the Beatles press officer.A shame none of you doubters could check it through.
Anyway the book is called 'John,Paul,George,Ringo and Me' and in the hardback version it's on page 66.It's in the third chapter called 'The Awesome Foursome' in the part specifically about John.

[Dr. Dreamer]

Yes- eventually - No :laugh2:

Love that pic posted earlier...hilarious! :rolling3: