Athesism the only choice.

[Muppotmup]

I believe (wrong choice of word possibly!!) That religion (well some forms of it) is ruining the world Blind faith in my opinion is the worse sort and fanatacism a curse. People hating and hurting people for being the 'wrong' religion is wrong, and if we got rid of religion the world would be a better place.

[oldfish]

people need faith.Everyone needs it.

[MaccaGirl2891]

I strongly disagree. This is going to get a lot of people mad, because not everyone on here has the same way of thinking. But, then again, some people will agree. But please live with the fact that some of us are very religious.

[LetterB]

I believe (wrong choice of word possibly!!) That religion (well some forms of it) is ruining the world Blind faith in my opinion is the worse sort and fanatacism a curse. People hating and hurting people for being the 'wrong' religion is wrong, and if we got rid of religion the world would be a better place.


I need to respond, I can't find it within myself to leave this lay. Let me start off by saying that I agree with some of what you said. I am a Christian and am very serious about my faith. It isn't a blind faith. It is a faith that is backed by fact and experience. Of course I cannot see a figure of God standing in front of me.. but I can see God in people, in creation, and in His works. Cliche as it may be I can't see the air I breath either but I am positive it exists...You said "People hating and hurting people for being the 'wrong' religion is wrong" I fully agree. My personal faith, Christianity, never promotes hatred of people. People are created in the image of God, God loves all people, God desires a relationship with all people. Thus, it would not make sence to hate... however, the world gets a distorted image of Christianity. Christians act on emotion, Christians act out of hatred, Christians act out of ignorance... we are our own worst enemy. I act on those things at time, I am still in the process of sanctificaton... sin is a part of me whether I like it or not. At the heart of Christianity is love, if you look at Christ and his teaching you see that. We live in a sinful world, maybe the term sin isn't something everyone would count as valid... but I think we all know that there is right and wrong... if there were no religion there would still be right and wrong... and people would still do wrong... I have thrown a lot of ideas out there. For me... I can no longer deny who God is because He changed my heart, my life. Obviously this discussion hooked me, i will check back often. This is important stuff to consider for sure.

[HMVNipper]

I personally am not conventionally religious at all. I am a Secular Humanistic Jew (which means I'm extremely culturally Jewish but am absolutely secular otherwise. I believe that Jewish values and customs are imporant to preserve and pass on to my child) and I am definitely a borderline atheist. I don't describe myself as a complete atheist because I personally think there's SOMETHING out there greater than myself, but damned if I know what it is! That, and that I can't believe this world is all there is...that's just too cold for me. But that's a personal feeling.

I would not ever venture to say that atheism is the "only" choice out there. Certainly it is for some people, but for many, it is absolutely not. I have no problem at all with people who are more religious than I am, as long as no one is proselytizing and trying to force me to think the same way they do. This goes for ultra-religious Jews as well as fundamentalist Christians or Muslims, by the way. I have no patience whatsoever for fundamentalists of any stripe if they get in my face and tell me that the things I believe are "wrong" and that I must be "saved." And frankly, angry and militant atheists are as bad as any fundamentalist -- I don't appreciate that either! I'm perfectly happy being a secular Jew -- I don't need to be yelled at or forced to "save myself," and I don't want anyone to adopt me as their religious conversion project either...I'm happy the way I am. If other people can't respect that, I have no use for them -- I'm okay with others believing what they want, it's when they feel they have to yell at me that I'm wrong that I lose my patience.

To say that YOU personally feel that atheism is the only choice FOR YOU is one thing, but to impose such a view and inflict it on others is quite another. I think it's great that you like being an atheist and stand up for your beliefs, Muppotmup. It is difficult to be an open atheist in this country when religion is everwhere. But though I absolutely agree with you in sentiment, I can't agree that it is the only choice for everyone.

[Rellevart]

In general, I would hesitate before saying that ANY belief, opinion, faith, etc is "the only choice" because I believe that that's exactly what causes trouble. If you think that your way is the only way, then everybody else is by definition wrong and in some way your enemy, or against you. And that's what tends to cause intolerance, or worse.

I think everybody should believe in whatever works for them, given their own personal belief system, their upbringing, their experience, whatever. And one should be tolerant of those who believe differently. It's not the religion that's the problem, it's the intolerance.

[LovinLennon909]

I think organized religion is silly...all organized religions. I'm not sure if I'm an atheist EXACTLY, but I've certainly never "seen God." I think religion began as a way for men to come to great power without having been born into it. The higher up a man was in his religion (priest-cardinal-Pope, for example) the more power he was able to obtain, the more he people he was able to control. It's still that way. Bush won an election because of religion and babies are being born HIV-positive because the Pope says no condoms. I feel many people are comforted by the thought that there might be something after this life, and that there is a supreme being watching out for them, but I just don't buy it. I'm not closed off to believing in a Heaven or a God, I've just never had any reason to believe in them. People throw common sense out the window in the name of religion, particularly here in Puritan States of America, and in that sense it does seem atheism is the most effective route in a modern world.

[oldfish]

In general, I would hesitate before saying that ANY belief, opinion, faith, etc is "the only choice" because I believe that that's exactly what causes trouble. If you think that your way is the only way, then everybody else is by definition wrong and in some way your enemy, or against you. And that's what tends to cause intolerance, or worse.

I think everybody should believe in whatever works for them, given their own personal belief system, their upbringing, their experience, whatever. And one should be tolerant of those who believe differently. It's not the religion that's the problem, it's the intolerance.
yeah,I agree.
BTW,I am not interested in religion.I think what I believe in is nationalism.Do everything what I can do for my country,my nation.

[adayinthelife]

I think organized religion is silly...all organized religions. I'm not sure if I'm an atheist EXACTLY, but I've certainly never "seen God." I think religion began as a way for men to come to great power without having been born into it. The higher up a man was in his religion (priest-cardinal-Pope, for example) the more power he was able to obtain, the more he people he was able to control. It's still that way. Bush won an election because of religion and babies are being born HIV-positive because the Pope says no condoms. I feel many people are comforted by the thought that there might be something after this life, and that there is a supreme being watching out for them, but I just don't buy it. I'm not closed off to believing in a Heaven or a God, I've just never had any reason to believe in them. People throw common sense out the window in the name of religion, particularly here in Puritan States of America, and in that sense it does seem atheism is the most effective route in a modern world.

Thank you, I agree with you.

I am an atheist/buddhist. I don't really care about other people's religions. As long as they don't try to preach to me about how I am going to hell or whatever I don't really care.

[beatlebangs1964]

There is no "only" way. As Mario Cuomo said in January of 1984, each person has the right to belief or nonbelief systems as they see fit. Since each person has their own internal value system, I am really uncomfortable with anybody saying that their way, in this case "atheism" is the only way.

While I find prosletyzing offensive, by the same token I resent being told that Catholicism, my chosen faith is in effect "wrong" because I am not an atheist. For those who are atheists, you are entitled to that. Nobody is trying to make a convert out of anyone.

I am a Catholic and make no apology for that. By the same token, I am not interested in forcing my values and beliefs on others; as George Harrison said, "...any road'll take you there." What I do resent is for anyone to declare that their form of belief or nonbelief is the only way. That makes everybody else a de facto member of the "wrong" followers. That does not sit well with me.

I don't find organized religion silly; again, I bang on the drum for EVERYBODY to follow the beliefs in the way that best meets their individual needs.

[ShowTunes]

As a hardcore atheistic humanistic Jew, I can only say that atheism is the only way for ME. I would not presume to tell anyone else how to believe or what to believe. Nor do I particularly worry about what other people believe. That's none of my business. It only becomes my business when someone tries to force their beliefs onto me, or onto public institutions where it has no place.

Having said that, I do get distressed by the unwillingness of religious institutions to confront problems within their hierarchies, and the willingness of some religious individuals to discriminate against people who don't conform to their expectations/sacred texts. (I don't find these qualities attractive in atheists, either!) But I don't think getting rid of religion would suddenly improve things, since these qualities are products of human nature and exist independent of faith. People would just find different rationalizations for discriminating against people they don't like.

[chaitanya]

My country is the whole world.
My people is the humanity
My flag is the flag of the poor and the miserables.
My God is Krishna,Allah,Jehova,Buddha,Shiva or whatever,'cause in any case God
give a damn of what our poor mind could think about Him.

Amen.

[erinluv182]

I believe (wrong choice of word possibly!!) That religion (well some forms of it) is ruining the world Blind faith in my opinion is the worse sort and fanatacism a curse. People hating and hurting people for being the 'wrong' religion is wrong, and if we got rid of religion the world would be a better place.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you entirely, but it seems that your reason for being atheist is that religious people are ruining the world. If that's the reason, I hope that you will reconsider it, simply because it is not a very logical conclusion to come to. It is true that many religious people are screwed up majorly. Actually, I would argue that all religious people are screwed up majorly, as pretty much everyone is messed up. But this does not make religion intrinsically bad. The reason for religion is basically because we as humans are so messed up. The reason that I have a problem with your logic of "religion is messed up, so I think there's no God" is because you basically seem to be making your own rule up based on the fact that you don't like reality. Reality is that people are messed up. Now, this does not mean that there is no God. Do you have other reasons for being an atheist, other than the fact that you don't like religion?

[Maggie Mae]

This is such a touchy, sensitive topic. I'd like to add my two cents worth:

I don't think that religion is ruining the world; I think people are ruining the world, if anything. This was an interesting topic brought up in a philosophy class I took, in which we came to the conclusion that, for example, it's not Allah's fault, or the entire Islamic world's fault, that there are Islamic fundamentalists blowing up cars and subway trains. Only those fundamentalists are to blame, and however misguided their views on their religion may be, we CANNOT blame all of Islam for what they have done. The same goes for the recent child molestation scandal involving the Catholic Church. It is in no way shape or form God's fault, or every Catholic's fault, that a few misguided people committed those acts. We can't blame the whole institution for the faults of one person.

I guess you could call me an agnostic, and I don't proclaim myself to be a religious person in any way, shape, or form. Yet I would never, ever, tell a person who is as deeply religious as I am deeply confused that there is only one way to go, one way to think. There are no absolutes here, no way to say for sure that this is right and that is wrong. I think we need to believe in something, and whatever "something" that is is up to each of us to decide for ourselves. Somebody else already said this, but I feel it needs to be said again -- it's not religion that's hurting anyone; it's intolerance and a general lack of understanding doing the most harm. Statements of "only" this or that don't help the matter much, in my opinion.

~Mags

[ShowTunes]

Actually, I would argue that all religious people are screwed up majorly, as pretty much everyone is messed up.

Define "messed up," please. Depression? Anti-social tendencies? Bad luck? Bad childhood? Arguing with their spouse? Being human? The trouble with many religions is that they demonize perfectly normal modes of human behavior (e.g., homosexuality, eating pork) for no rational reason. And in doing so, the adherents of those religions inappropriately contribute to the "messed-upness" of many individuals. Rigid world-views will do that, especially when reality doesn't conform to that world-view and someone desperately tries to force reality into that mold... often with tragic results, since reality is rather resilient. Unfortunately, rigid thinkers cannot remove their blinders to recognize the harm they're doing.

Do you have other reasons for being an atheist, other than the fact that you don't like religion?

Hmm... I've had that question posed to me before, by people trying to use "logic" to "prove" that I should be religious. Do I detect such a motive here?

[matt5]

We have suffering in the world becuase people act with cruelty to one another.

If we removed religion from the world or even if it did not exist in the first place, people would continue to do cruel acts.

Religion is not the problem. The problem is that people make poor moral choices.

I don't know what the solution to this is, but making blanket accusations against all organized religion will not solve anything in my opinion.

I hope there is a solution.

[beatlebangs1964]

Matt5,

Thank you for summing it up so well! I agree with you -- the problem does NOT lie with religion, per se but with the decisions people make in how they treat others. Morality is also at the heart of the matter - morality does not necessarily have to be religion-based. People who are atheists or who have completely different faith values have their set of morals as do all individuals.

Good question - I don't have a solution either, but I agree with you there, Matt, that by making blanket accusations against all organized religions solves nothing and does not pave the Long & Winding Road to understanding.

[oldfish]

The problem of the religions is only the most surface problem.The problem is in everyone's mind.Maybe the problem is that everyone is born wicked.Is there any solution?I don't think so.Every country fights for its interests,every one fights for his fame and property.No religion and no faith can change it.

[ringo_rama]

Matt--you're awesome. :thumbu2: You said everything that I would have liked to say, if the original post didn't piss me off so much that I had to bite my tongue in order to keep from getting banned.

[twovirgins]

what Does a Agnostic Dyslexic do ?


Wonders if there really is a Dog. :)

[erinluv182]

Define "messed up," please. Depression? Anti-social tendencies? Bad luck? Bad childhood? Arguing with their spouse? Being human? The trouble with many religions is that they demonize perfectly normal modes of human behavior (e.g., homosexuality, eating pork) for no rational reason. And in doing so, the adherents of those religions inappropriately contribute to the "messed-upness" of many individuals. Rigid world-views will do that, especially when reality doesn't conform to that world-view and someone desperately tries to force reality into that mold... often with tragic results, since reality is rather resilient. Unfortunately, rigid thinkers cannot remove their blinders to recognize the harm they're doing.



Hmm... I've had that question posed to me before, by people trying to use "logic" to "prove" that I should be religious. Do I detect such a motive here?

What I meant by messed up is that everyone is messed up. I am messed up. My friends are messed up. Everyone is. That's why I said everyone.

As for my comments about logic, I was simply trying to figure it out, because IF those are the reasons for being ahteist, they don't hold up to logic. I shouldn't believe something is true simply because I don't like the possible reality if it is not true. That's like saying "well, I don't like the thought that Paul McCartney is not my husband, so I shall simply choose to believe that he is." Well, I can believe all I want, but that will not change reality.

[Sally]

I believe religion is fine at home and it does give people comfort however I don't agree in people trying to convert others or not accepting other religions.

[Lynner]

I agree with Sally. While I would never try to convert anyone, I would gladly/freely discuss my beliefs with anyone who wanted to talk about it. I think it's interesting to hear what others believe and why they believe. If someone is not sure what to believe, then I see nothing wrong with telling that person why you believe (or don't believe). But, I don't think it's right to force beliefs. Everyone has their own path to follow.

[HMVNipper]

I agree, Lynn and Sally. If religion or praying gives someone comfort and strength, hey, that's great. And yes, if someone asks, it's certainly okay to tell them what you believe. It's when people proselytize when I DON'T ask that it gets on my nerves.

Over the years, I've had people tell me I was "wrong" to be Jewish, that I was "going to Hell" because I don't believe in Jesus, that I need to be "saved from myself," that I'm a "poor misguided soul who needs help," and I have had religious tracts shoved under my door and in my face, been "adopted" by people who feel that I should be their "project" so I can see the "error of my ways," and otherwise been told (by fundamentalist Christians, mostly) that I'm psychologically disturbed because I am Jewish and choose to remain so. When I was a teenager, I had a penpal in the Philippines who was a fundamentalist Christian, and he even went so far as to discuss me with his pastor, who told him that God had sent me for his a penpal because it was his "mission in life to save the poor, misguided Jew." I dropped him like a hot potato when his letters started containing dozens of religious tracts and exhortations to confront the error of my ways and be saved and not much else!

I'm not crazy, misguided, disturbed, mistaken or bound for Hell (mostly because I don't believe in such a thing). I'm completely secular in my day to day life, but I am also Jewish, I will always be Jewish, and I am proud of it and happy the way I am. I respect other people's religious choices, I'm pleased for them if they have found a way that works for them. But I heartily resent having those views forced upon me when I am happy with the way I am.

I think this is where I have problems with religion creeping into public institutions, where it does not belong. The idea that prayer should be permitted in public schools or that the ten commandments should be posted in courthouses causes me serious anguish, because it is tantamount to proselytizing. Religion has no place in these public areas, and that is something that I think the Christian majority in this country are trying to reverse. Separation of church and state is written into the Constitution, and if you don't believe it, you can go read it for yourself. This country was founded by men of action, and not all of them were men of faith. We are not a theocracy, a country dominated by a "national religion," we are free to worship as we please, or not to worship if we so desire. The insensitivity of some towards anyone who is not Christian (or not even the right KIND of Christian -- a lot of these people look askance at Catholics the same way they do at Jews) is, to me, abhorrent. Not everyone in this country believes the same way -- and while it's fine for elected officials to wear their faith on their sleeves if the so desire, insisting that everyone believe what they do is going too far. (And before anyone leaps on me, I am not only talking about the current administration -- there have been others before who have done pretty much the same thing. I'm speaking in generalities here.)

There is no "only way." Each different way is another road leading, ultimately, to the same place. And it is this insistance that only one way is the "right" way that causes such trouble in the world.

[LetterB]

How am I causing trouble in the world because I belive that Jesus Christ is the only way? I am not causing a bit of trouble. Unfortunately there are extreme people out there...in all religions be that Christianity, Islam etc. A part cannot define the whole. However I think often times the part leaves such a bad taste in peoples mouths that it leads to a distorted picture of what is truely about.

[HMVNipper]

How am I causing trouble in the world because I belive that Jesus Christ is the only way? I am not causing a bit of trouble. Unfortunately there are extreme people out there...in all religions be that Christianity, Islam etc. A part cannot define the whole. However I think often times the part leaves such a bad taste in peoples mouths that it leads to a distorted picture of what is truely about.

You AREN'T causing trouble if you aren't insisting that everyone else in the world believes the same thing you do in the same way you do. What I meant was when people say that their way is the only way for ALL with no room for discussion, it causes problems. A religious Jew or Muslim would not agree with you, for them, Jesus Christ is not the way at all! Your religious choice is YOURS, and it's terrific that you are so happy with it! You believe Jesus is the only way, I don't, but you aren't telling me I have to believe what you do and threatening to kill me if I don't convert. (Can you say "Spanish Inquisition, anyone?) It's when anyone (that "you" up there was a general "you," not personal, and it wasn't personal in any other post either) sees fit to force or threaten others if they don't believe the same way they do that trouble ensues.

And yes, I agree, there are extremists in every faith -- I don't care for fundamentalist Jews who tell me I'm "wrong" any better than I care for fundamentalist Christians or Muslims who do. And I know that most people, of any faith, are not extremists. I think it's sad that the nutjobs in any faith are the ones that make the news, so that people think that's the way everyone of that faith behaves, when nothing could be further from the truth.

[ShowTunes]

What I meant by messed up is that everyone is messed up. I am messed up. My friends are messed up. Everyone is. That's why I said everyone.

Please supply more definition; you can't define a term by using the term in the definition. Simply saying people are "messed up" doesn't convey anything. It's not exactly a technical term, like "bipolar" or "psychotic" or "Alzheimer's." What is "messed up"? How do you know that I'm "messed up"? How "messed up" do you have to be to still function successfully in the real world and have a reasonably happy life? How can you tell if having faith makes you less "messed up" than people who don't have faith?

As for my comments about logic, I was simply trying to figure it out, because IF those are the reasons for being ahteist, they don't hold up to logic. I shouldn't believe something is true simply because I don't like the possible reality if it is not true. That's like saying "well, I don't like the thought that Paul McCartney is not my husband, so I shall simply choose to believe that he is." Well, I can believe all I want, but that will not change reality.

You do realize that your statement can be applied to the opposite point of view--that just because you don't like the possible reality that there may not be a god doesn't mean you should believe in a god? It's a meaningless and circular argument. As for "logic," you have to define what you consider to be "logic" before you can accuse someone of not possessing it. Also, as you may or may not know, for those of us who do not believe, the end product of our logic is that there is no god. (We don't just wake up one morning and say "Hey! There's no god!") Whose logic is superior? More precisely, what determines whose logic is superior? Certainly neither you nor I, which makes it inappropriate for either of us to question the thought processes that got anyone to where they are.

[ringo_rama]

Over the years, I've had people tell me I was "wrong" to be Jewish, that I was "going to Hell" because I don't believe in Jesus, that I need to be "saved from myself," that I'm a "poor misguided soul who needs help," and I have had religious tracts shoved under my door and in my face, been "adopted" by people who feel that I should be their "project" so I can see the "error of my ways," and otherwise been told (by fundamentalist Christians, mostly) that I'm psychologically disturbed because I am Jewish and choose to remain so.

And on behalf of all true Christians, I sincerely apologize. I think that the best way for a Christian to serve God and their faith is not to pressure people of other religions but to accept them and respect their beliefs as human beliefs. Forcing conversions is not exactly following God's way. A few years ago, a priest delivered a sermon where he denied that Jesus was Jewish and then he explained why it wasn't possible for Him to be Jewish. It was one of the most sickening things I've ever heard.

My father is one of those "you must convert" Christians (although he isn't quite as rude and upfront) and it has bothered me for years. He gives people pamphlets, helps explain to them why the religion they've followed their entire life is wrong, and if you ask me, insulting their intelligence is not a good way to convert anyone.

My opinion on discussing religion has been and always will be: you do your thing and I do mine.

[HMVNipper]

Thank you, RingoRama, your post was really nice. I know that most true Christians don't behave in that awful manner, I think I've just had the misfortune to run into a good number of the ones who do.

As for the priest who gave that sermon you mentioned...wow, that's just...there are no words I can come up with to describe my astonishment at his ignorance. I would be willing to bet that you were not the only person bothered by that sermon!

As I said, if a person is happy with his religious choice, hey, that's great. I'm also happy with mine.

[LittleDarlin909]

One of my favorite quotes is from the movie *Dogma*:

"It's not about who's right or wrong. No religion's nailed it yet, and they never will because they're all too self-righteous to realize that it doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you have faith. Your hearts are in the right place, but your brains need to wake up!"

Religion is not about being right or wrong, it's about making sense of something bigger and more powerful than any individual. In other words, believe in what makes sense to you, what gives you peace, balance, and understanding.

(For the record, I'm an atheist. That's my choice and it works for me, but I'd NEVER be so arrogant or insensitive as to insist that it is "the only choice")

[beatlegirl9977]

One of my favorite quotes is from the movie *Dogma*:

"It's not about who's right or wrong. No religion's nailed it yet, and they never will because they're all too self-righteous to realize that it doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you have faith. Your hearts are in the right place, but your brains need to wake up!"

Hah, I thought of that same quote yesterday when I was reading this thread! I do totally agree with that... a belief in God isn't a bad thing IMO, but it's when people get hung up in a complex belief structure that things get messy.

[LetterB]

In reguards to the discussion on evangelism or "trying to convert" other people to your faith. For a Christian understand that it is a mandate. Christ instructed believers to witness to other believers. Do i think some go about it in an entirely inappropriate manner? You betcha. Shoving somthing down ones throat and being judgmental are not going to bring anyone to belief in something. But, I do share my faith with people on a regular basis through building relationships and through living a Christian life that hopefully lets others see Christ in me.

[HMVNipper]

In reguards to the discussion on evangelism or "trying to convert" other people to your faith. For a Christian understand that it is a mandate. Christ instructed believers to witness to other believers. Do i think some go about it in an entirely inappropriate manner? You betcha. Shoving somthing down ones throat and being judgmental are not going to bring anyone to belief in something. But, I do share my faith with people on a regular basis through building relationships and through living a Christian life that hopefully lets others see Christ in me.

I totally understand that. But as you say, some go about it in an entirely inappropriate manner, and with a complete lack of respect for other people's beliefs. I have no problem discussing religious differences with reasonable people -- I would like to know more about Christianity, but it isn't EVER going to make me into a Christian. I would like to think that if you and I were discussing our beliefs, for example, LetterB, we would listen to each other with interest and empathy in a reasonable manner and agree that we aren't going to convert each other. It can be very interesting and enlightening to know what other people practice. (I wish I knew some Muslims, for example -- I know next to nothing about Islam!) Sharing what you believe is great, insisting that others believe it too "or else" is not. (And that goes for people of ANY affiliation who are unreasonable when someone disagrees with them!)

[Rellevart]

I completely agree with LetterB and Ringo_rama when they say that angry, confrontational believers aren't going to convince anybody to convert. I'd see somebody like that and think "Ok, their religion make them angry and intolerant, but yet my casual relationship with religion makes me happy and accepting. Why would I want to be more like them?"

Also, you know, that whole human nature thing about the more that somebody tries to force you to do something you don't really want to do, the more you resist.

I think that if you're a good person, that's more important than if you belong to an organized religion or not. Being honest and ethical and kind is more important to me, but I realize others may think differently.

[matt5]

I think that if you're a good person, that's more important than if you belong to an organized religion or not. Being honest and ethical and kind is more important to me

Yup. It really is as simple as that. :smile1:

[MaccaGirl2891]

[QUOTE=HMVNipper]It can be very interesting and enlightening to know what other people practice. (I wish I knew some Muslims, for example -- I know next to nothing about Islam!)QUOTE]
My mom and grandma read a great book about Islam. It's called "Unveiling Islam", but I forgot who it was by. He used to be a Muslim, but now he's a Christian, so he knows what he's talking about!

I'm afraid to ask people what they believe in if I don't know, because I know people who are Agnostic, Wicca, Buddhist, Jewish, Satanists, and atheists. I really don't talk about my religion with other people except for my friends who share my beliefs. I was talking to some friends in math class (we had free time) in 7th grade and my teacher, who is a Buddhist nun, said very firmly, "Jaye! Not in my room!" I was very appalled. I was not talking directly to her, was I? I would love to talk about what I want, when I want, where I want, and not be criticized or told not to do it!

I wish I could say more, but I don't want to be taken wrongly or offend anybody. Because that has happened in the past. :)

[HMVNipper]

I completely agree with LetterB and Ringo_rama when they say that angry, confrontational believers aren't going to convince anybody to convert. I'd see somebody like that and think "Ok, their religion make them angry and intolerant, but yet my casual relationship with religion makes me happy and accepting. Why would I want to be more like them?"

Also, you know, that whole human nature thing about the more that somebody tries to force you to do something you don't really want to do, the more you resist.

I think that if you're a good person, that's more important than if you belong to an organized religion or not. Being honest and ethical and kind is more important to me, but I realize others may think differently.

Suz, are you sure we aren't the same person? :wink1:

Seriously, I do agree with what you said. I do remember that my mother in law (who is a very devout Catholic) was extremely concerned when I married her son about what religion any children would be. She seemed to think that without strict Catholicism, no child could grow up to be a decent adult. I told her pretty much exactly what you said in your last paragraph -- that what was really important to me was that our children would be good people, honest, ethical and kind. That's the best you can ask for, to raise nice children who grow up to be nice adults -- and it doesn't matter what religion they are, or even if they are any at all. My mother in law may not agree with that, but that's her problem -- Jim and I know that we are doing what we can so that that happens for Jamie, and it is completely independent of religion.

We are raising our son nominally Jewish, which was an agreement that my husband and I came to between ourselves -- since Judaism is matrilineal (e.g., passed down through the mother), Jamie's Jewish simply because I am. We could raise him as Catholic as the Pope and it wouldn't change that, he'd still be Jewish because his mother is. But we belong to a secular humanistic congregation, full of interfaith families and agnostics and atheists -- ALL of whom are very strong cultural Jews (even the people not necessarily born Jewish). I'm not religious at all, but I have extremely strong ties to Jewish values and ethics and customs, and Jim and I both thought it was important to pass that on to our son. But even if we didn't belong to City Congregation, we'd still be doing our best to instill values and ethics of some kind in our child -- there wouldn't have to be a religious affiliation involved for that to happen!

[Rellevart]

Suz, are you sure we aren't the same person? :wink1:

Nah, I'm taller and more shy than you. :wink1:

Oh, and I just want to compliment everyone on a very interesting and civil (so far!) discussion of a topic that usually ends up being interesting but very rarely remains civil. :smile1:

[Hari's Chick]

In general, I would hesitate before saying that ANY belief, opinion, faith, etc is "the only choice" because I believe that that's exactly what causes trouble. If you think that your way is the only way, then everybody else is by definition wrong and in some way your enemy, or against you. And that's what tends to cause intolerance, or worse.

I think everybody should believe in whatever works for them, given their own personal belief system, their upbringing, their experience, whatever. And one should be tolerant of those who believe differently. It's not the religion that's the problem, it's the intolerance.

Rell, this is exactly how I feel, too.

While I am most certainly theist, I don't care if someone else is atheist or not because what they believe does not affect what 'Is'. Their belief is simply one opinion. God will not shrink away because of misconception or misperception. They can feel the same about my opinions and beliefs, too, and that is cool with me.

However, I find it hard to be super best friends with atheists simply because of the social factors. In my opinion, the best and most spiritually useful socializing is done to further God perception, all the rest is entertaining but ultimately pointless. Only talk of God is transcendent, imo.

I like folks who proselytize in nice ways. I have people who came to my door to give me a little magazine on their beliefs and we have chatted quite a bit. I know I will not convert, but I think it is loving of them to try to convert me since they value something and are trying to share it with me. :smile1:

[erinluv182]

Please supply more definition; you can't define a term by using the term in the definition. Simply saying people are "messed up" doesn't convey anything. It's not exactly a technical term, like "bipolar" or "psychotic" or "Alzheimer's." What is "messed up"? How do you know that I'm "messed up"? How "messed up" do you have to be to still function successfully in the real world and have a reasonably happy life? How can you tell if having faith makes you less "messed up" than people who don't have faith?

What I meant by messed up is that ultimately as humans we have flaws. We are not perfect. No one's perfect. You're not. I'm not.



You do realize that your statement can be applied to the opposite point of view--that just because you don't like the possible reality that there may not be a god doesn't mean you should believe in a god? It's a meaningless and circular argument. As for "logic," you have to define what you consider to be "logic" before you can accuse someone of not possessing it. Also, as you may or may not know, for those of us who do not believe, the end product of our logic is that there is no god. (We don't just wake up one morning and say "Hey! There's no god!") Whose logic is superior? More precisely, what determines whose logic is superior? Certainly neither you nor I, which makes it inappropriate for either of us to question the thought processes that got anyone to where they are.


I wasn't saying atheists are illogical. My original post was to the originator of this thread. I was understanding them as saying their reason for being atheist was that they thought religion was bad and that religious people did bad things. I was asking if this was their only reason for being atheist, and if it was, I was hopeful that they would re-think the logic of that being their reason.
As for me and my logic, I have good reasons for my faith. I am not a Believer simply because I don't like the possibility of there not being a God. I know there is a God. I don't have to worry about the possibility that he doesn't exist. I know he does. I know you don't agree with that, and that is fine. But I think that God is real, and I can tell you countless reasons which I'm sure you don't want to hear regarding why I think He's real. Logically does it make sense that there is a God? Yes. But this is not the foundation of my faith. My foundations run much deeper than logic. It just so happens that logic points toward there being a God, which is nice. Sort of a back up. Like when you do well on an exam, it feels nice to know you did well, but when someone compliments you, it makes it feel even better. Supports are nice.

[ShowTunes]

However, I find it hard to be super best friends with atheists simply because of the social factors. In my opinion, the best and most spiritually useful socializing is done to further God perception, all the rest is entertaining but ultimately pointless. Only talk of God is transcendent, imo.

Doesn't that kind of limit the available topics, thought? ;) I like to think that my conversations about Broadway musicals and soapmaking are pretty darn point-ful....

One of my very best friends is born-again, and in general more of my friends are religious or spiritual than not. Differences make good sparks!

I like folks who proselytize in nice ways. I have people who came to my door to give me a little magazine on their beliefs and we have chatted quite a bit. I know I will not convert, but I think it is loving of them to try to convert me since they value something and are trying to share it with me. :smile1:

I find proselytizers as welcome as pop-up ads on the Internet....

A story: a few months ago a couple of teenagers came to my door and wanted to give me a flyer about their church. They'd interrupted whatever I was doing, but I was polite and said "No thank you." But the kid persisted in trying to hand it to me and talk about his church. At which point I got annoyed and said, "We're Jewish. Goodbye," and shut the door in his face. There's a pretty thick line between accepting "No" for an answer and persisting in the face of refusal. That ain't love, or sharing; that's plain old rudeness. I think it's more loving of someone to accept people as they are rather than to try to change them, especially when they know absolutely nothing about the people they're trying to change.

[HMVNipper]

As for me and my logic, I have good reasons for my faith. I am not a Believer simply because I don't like the possibility of there not being a God. I know there is a God. I don't have to worry about the possibility that he doesn't exist. I know he does. I know you don't agree with that, and that is fine. But I think that God is real, and I can tell you countless reasons which I'm sure you don't want to hear regarding why I think He's real. Logically does it make sense that there is a God? Yes. But this is not the foundation of my faith. My foundations run much deeper than logic. It just so happens that logic points toward there being a God, which is nice. Sort of a back up. Like when you do well on an exam, it feels nice to know you did well, but when someone compliments you, it makes it feel even better. Supports are nice.

With all due respect, Erin -- YOUR logic points towards there being a God. Clearly some people's logic has led them to different conclusions, and that's fine too.

I think it's great that you have such faith if it makes you happy. I personally prefer to rely on logic. I can't just accept things without wondering WHY. But I sure don't fault you for believing, especially if it makes you feel good!

[LittleDarlin909]

With all due respect, Erin -- YOUR logic points towards there being a God. Clearly some people's logic has led them to different conclusions, and that's fine too.

I agree with Susan. Logic and faith are two very different things! Logic is a form of reason that seeks truth based on fact and proof. Faith by definition is a belief that seeks truth based on something other than incontrovertable proof.

As many "logical" reasons as you have for believing in God, I have just as many equally "logical" reasons for being an atheist.

[LetterB]

I can't just accept things without wondering WHY.

I agree with you there. It is really hard to accept things without wondering why. Especially things like God. I as a believer think it is a good thing to question. It sharpens you and takes you deeper. I don't believe things simply because someone tells me to believe it( not that you are saying I do). I think it is sometimes a general misconception that Christian faith is totally blind. It really isn't.

[Rellevart]

I don't think faith has anything to do with logic. Logic is easy to understand. If you can logic something out as "true", well, then it IS true. Faith is more tenuous. You have to make that leap out of logic into intuition or feeling or whatever it is. You don't believe because you can prove it with logic, you believe just because you DO. Or don't, as the case may be.

This doesn't just work on belief in God or Jesus or whatever, it works on belief in people or causes too. There are people who, despite all logic, you just trust or believe in. Same thing. It's going with the gut over the brain. I do both under different circumstances and am not sure which one is preferable.

[Lynner]

In reguards to the discussion on evangelism or "trying to convert" other people to your faith. For a Christian understand that it is a mandate. Christ instructed believers to witness to other believers. Do i think some go about it in an entirely inappropriate manner? You betcha. Shoving somthing down ones throat and being judgmental are not going to bring anyone to belief in something. But, I do share my faith with people on a regular basis through building relationships and through living a Christian life that hopefully lets others see Christ in me.
I teach religious education. So yeah, part of my job is to tell my students how wonderful it is love God and follow Jesus and his teachings. Howwever, I will not shove it down throats. I explain to my students ( I teach mainly 6 year olds) that I love God and why our religion is so important. Letter B, I wish you were in my area, your last sentence is a perfect example of what I teach my students.

[beatlebangs1964]

I thought the punchline was "stays up all night wondering if there is a Dog."


I believe religion is fine at home and it does give people comfort however I don't agree in people trying to convert others or not accepting other religions.

Bull's eye, Sally. The bottom line is acceptance and not prosletyzing or coercion.

I agree with you there. It is really hard to accept things without wondering why. Especially things like God. I as a believer think it is a good thing to question. It sharpens you and takes you deeper. I don't believe things simply because someone tells me to believe it( not that you are saying I do). I think it is sometimes a general misconception that Christian faith is totally blind. It really isn't.


In regards to the discussion on evangelism or "trying to convert" other people to your faith. For a Christian understand that it is a mandate. Christ instructed believers to witness to other believers. Do I think some go about it in an entirely inappropriate manner? You betcha. Shoving somthing down ones throat and being judgmental are not going to bring anyone to belief in something. But, I do share my faith with people on a regular basis through building relationships and through living a Christian life that hopefully lets others see Christ in me.


Amen to what you said, B! I've said all along that "trying to convert" = prosletyzing to other people is not in anybody's best interests. Faith sharing is one thing. Faith sharing is open communication about one's faith; learning about different faiths; traveling along one's faith journey; acceptance, logic and learning. That is all on the plus side.

Ramming things down the throats of others is counterproductive and rarely, if ever successful. Being judgmental does not serve in anybody's interest nor does it speak to tolerance. Christian faiths (and I speak from a Christian perspective because that is what I believe) teach TOLERANCE. Fairness and tolerance are, I believe, what Jesus is all about.

B, I love what you said about faith sharing as "building relationships and through living a Christian life that hopefully lets others see Christ" in you. I could not have said it better. One of my relatives said that how you treat other people is an expression of one's beliefs.

A statement George Harrison made about how the beauty we see in each other is really God seems very a propos. I find that beautiful, deep and very moving indeed.

[LittleDarlin909]

My mom is a devout Christian, very active in her church and our community. She shows her faith through helping others, being kind, and reaching out to the friendless. I don't share her beliefs, but I have a profound respect for the way she expresses them.

All of you guys who promote your faith (whatever it may be) through positive actions and expressions. . . well, my hat's off to you.

[Muppotmup]

There are many reason why I am an athesist. I was once a christian and saw at first hand the hypocrisy of many of the people who were at the church looking down on you if you were poor. Treating two women who were only friends like crap and accusing them of being lesbians which even if they were they shoudn't have been so cruel and banned them from the church. They also basically stole off my mother using a flimsy pretence and just cos I was a protestant and went to a catholic primary school the Catholic priest treated me like I was some kind of 'demon' these are a few of the things that put me of religion as a whole.

[beatlebangs1964]

Mup, you will find hypocrisy all across the board among any group of people. The behavior you described is not limited to those practicing a faith. What you have described is not confined to any religion or any religious group. It was unfortunate and especially so in the case of the priest at the school you attended. I have known Pharisees who have acted as I said like "punch cards while using the Church as their time clock." They make a big show of attending mass, nodding avidly during the service, but the minute church was out and they were "off duty," they treated one another shabbily. As a child, I said that "just because you go to church, that doesn't mean you're good." Conversely, not attending doesn't mean somebody is bad, either.

I've said many times that I truly believe that how you treat others is a good expression of your belief system, whether it be religious based or not. In the cases above, the Pharisee-behavior (hypocrisy) and using religion to justify cruelty is hypocritical AND very misleading. That has nothing to do with religion, per se, but how people justify the decisions they are making. Religion is, I believe, an expression of one's beliefs. Atheism, I think, is an expression of not believing in a Higher Power, but still acting based on one's core values and belief system.

On another discussion board, there are several self-avowed, public atheists and they behave very much the way you described above. One professes to be "all full of love and tolerant and accepting," and yet that same person lashes out at people a propos of nothing. On one occasion, another poster made an innocent mistake and this person ripped into them without so much as a reprimand by the board/webmasters. That seemed very hypocritical to me.

Another publicly proclaimed atheist makes a big show of being tolerant towards others, but when somebody mentioned their faith in the context of a given thread, that person had a hissy fit.

[SpaceDaisy42]

I guess I am going to go against my better judegment and put my own two cents in as well. In regards to HMV's comment to Erin saying she is the kind of person who has to wonder why, there is nothing wrong with that and in order to be a Christian no one is required to not wonder why. Erin herself has wondered why I am sure. If as Christians we don't question ourselves and why we believe what we believe then we don't really have a leg to stand on. It's not really our faith, it's jsut what we've been taught to believe. I am saddened quite often by the mistaken idea, both in the Christian church and by outsiders as well, that having faith means dismissing logic. I have never found this to be true nor do I believe it is so. God gave us brains to use for a reason. And if I honestly believe that this is truth then I ahve nothing to fear from looking for answers to tough questions. If it is truth it will stand the test.

As far as evangelism, I am with letterb abnd the others who have said it already. pouding someone with a Bible is not right, but being and open honest example of Christ to those around you in your daily life and building a relationship with people, not for the sole purpose of evangelism but instead because they are people who are worthy of the time and effort and care is the only right thing. Christians can sometimes tend to see people as a potential convert, and lose sight of the fact they are a person with emotions, needs, problems, joys, talents, etc. It's sad really. Whatever sharing I do (in whatever way I do it) is not because someone is potential convert, but because if I truly believe this is the only way, then if I really care about someone then I will try to share it with them. Either by my lifestyle, or by simply loving on them, or whatever. I can't claim to love someone and NOT want to point them to Christ. Whether or not you think what I believe is the right religion, I hope you can see what I am saying here. It should all be about love, sharing in Christ's love for those around us.

Muppotmup, I'm so sorry that you have seen the worse side of people in the church. All I can say is that is not who Christ is, and you have my apology as a Christian for the hurt you've seen and expereinced at the hands of so called Christians. I can only hope you are able to believe that we are not all alike. We're also not all perfect.

Finally I am feel the need to say that no one who is a Christian does it to feel good about themselves. It's not easy, it's not a crutch, it's not happy. Being a Christian first requires me to see the absolute worst of myself and acknowledge I cannot be good enough ever. It is hard being a Christian. In a society where; as common place as churches are; the culture is quite hostile towards someone who is actually trying to live a life of obedience to scripture, it can be very difficult at times. It is not uncommon to be confronted by people who want to shoot my beliefs down, to be harrassed simply because of what I choose not to be a part of. Make no mistake, being a Christian isn't a feel good choice. But I cannot in good concious ever walk away from it, because as Erin said, I know without any doubt this is truth. I am not asking you to agree with me, but I can't water that conviction down either. By the same token, I don't ask any of you to water down your convictions for me.

Anyway, I've rambled and I hope I haven't offended anyone or upset anyone, because that was never my intention. I have utmost repsect for people who can talk in an intelligent and civil manner in topics like these. That would include all of you here. Good posts here, everyone! ok, I'll shut up now....

[Rellevart]

Being a Christian first requires me to see the absolute worst of myself and acknowledge I cannot be good enough ever.

I think I would have a problem with that kind of religion then where you're supposed to beat up on yourself all the time. My religious upbringing (and although I'm not a churchgoer now, I was forced to go every single week until I moved out of my parents' house, I taught Sunday School and vacation Bible School as a teenager) wasn't like that at all, it was more about kindness and joy and less about what unworthy people we were. I hope your faith brings you some joy too and not just difficulties, because what you described sounds pretty dour.

[HMVNipper]

Your comments were very interesting, SpaceDaisy. I found your point of view about being a Christian very enlightening. I don't think that people who believe scripture is the truth are necessarily illogical, by the way, it's just that I personally believe in science and evolution and the fossil record, and I can't take the bible as being literally the truth, so *I* find it illogical FOR ME. And as a Jewish person, I can't believe in the New Testament anyway...sorry. Jews don't think Jesus was the Messiah because as far as we're concerned, we're still waiting. To me, Jesus was simply a rabbi who preached a bit differently from other rabbis at the time, and that's all...or as my dad has been wont to say, "a nice Jewish boy who went into business for himself!" I don't believe that he was divine in any way. (I'm not being flippant, by the way, about Jesus. I know that many, many people take him very seriously and think what I just said is blasphemy. But I'm Jewish and I don't believe that. I'm just stating my views, that's all, not trying to disrespect anyone else's beliefs. At least I didn't say I was more popular than Jesus, right? :wink1: )

To address another point, the fact is, I don't think that when a Christian proselytizes to me he's "loving me" or "caring about me." I think he's actually hating me because he can't stand that I'm not like him and is so desperate to do something about it that he completely disrespects my beliefs as being inferior to his. It's fine and dandy to "spread the word," but not in a way that basically says that unless I believe that Jesus is the "only way" I'm going to Hell. Hell's a great fear-teaching myth, a nasty make-believe story, as far as I'm concerned, but it isn't real. (I realize that a lot of people would disagree with me on that too, but that's my opinion, I'm not forcing anyone to agree.) It's great when a person is so happy with his religious choice and thinks that it's the only way and the truth, but I don't think Christianity is the only way, and I really resent when people "claim to love me and so they have to point me to Christ." Fine, they can point all they want, I'm going in the other direction fast if they do that! I'm Jewish, live with it.

Mind you, I have issues with fundamentalist Jews too -- I remember asking my best friend from college, who was raised Modern Orthodox (not the same as Hasidic) about the reasons why Jews shouldn't eat pork or shellfish, and her response was "because it says." I persisted -- "Because WHO says?" She replied, "IT says, Susan, the TORAH says." Ummm....excuse me, but the Torah (which is the first five books of the bible, for those who don't know) was written BY MEN, at a time when eating undercooked pork or undercooked shellfish could actually KILL YOU, so in that sense it made sense at that time to just avoid those foods, particularly if you saw peope around you who did eat them dying because of it. But to say that in this modern age, where we have clean farms and refrigeration and know to cook our food fully that there is some practical reason not to eat pig products or shellfish...that just doesn't fly. I also have serious issues with some of the sexism inherent in Judaism. For that matter, I have issues with the sexism inherent in most organized religion...I'm a woman, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't become a rabbi or a priest or a minister if I feel the pull to do so.

"Because it says" is not enough of a reason for me because I don't think the bible was written by "God." It was written by fallable men. For instance, I have always been really confused as to why there are four different gospels in the New Testament, which basically tell the same story from four points of view. If this was the word of God, written by God, wouldn't there just be one version? It makes no practical sense to me. (And if any of our Christian members can clarify this for me, that'd be great. My husband's been trying for years and it hasn't worked.) That's just one example of the kind of thing I can't just take on faith. Maybe that makes some people think I'm lacking spirituality in my life or something, but I think you can be plenty spiritual and not religious at all. Some of the most religious people I have ever met have been some of the least spiritual and most hypocritical when it came to their everyday lives and dealings with other people.

Finally, I kind of agree with Rell, SpaceDaisy. My goodness -- all that talk about how it's not easy or happy to be a Christian, or how you first have to acknowledge how bad you are and how you can't ever be good enough!!! Wow...I'll tell you what was the real turning point for me when it came to being more of a cultural, secular humanistic Jew than a conventionally religious one. I was at a Yom Kippur service in an Orthdox synagogue. Yom Kippur is the holiest day of the Jewish calendar, the Day of Atonement, where we are supposed to ask God to forgive us our sins of the past year and ask him to "inscribe us in the Book of Life" for another year. And there's a part of the Orthodox litany where you are quite literally required to beat your breast and tell God how you've sinned, you're awful, you're rotten, you stink...and how you don't want to die, so he should forgive you for being so terrible. Well...I was standing there, reading this overwhelmingly miserable litany, going through the motions, and I suddenly had an epiphany (for want of a better word). I DON'T believe I'm a rotten, nasty, awful sinner. I know I'm not perfect, but I sure as heck am not as horrible as that litany requires me to say I am! I remember thinking, "How can I say this and not feel like a huge hypocrite? I'm not this terrible!" I don't believe in any religion that makes me first acknowledge that I'm a dirty rotten sinner with no hope unless I cower before an omnipotent God before I can feel good about myself. I do my level best to live a decent, ethical and good life, I'm kind to other people and animals, I do volunteer work and help others less fortunate, I do my best to be a good example for my son -- and while I know for sure I'm not always perfect, because no one is, I also think I'm personally responsible for my own actions, both for myself and towards other people -- and no amout of praying to God is going to change that, because I always have free will. I think I CAN be "good enough ever" if I do my level best to be a decent and ethical human being, God or no God. I really do think it's kind of sad that you feel your Christianity requires you to feel so bad before you can feel good about yourself, if that's what you are really saying. It's great to have conviction, but at the expense of your self-esteem? Wow...do you really believe you are that horrible? Because I don't think you are, I think you seem to be a nice and decent person, and that you would be even if you weren't religious.

I hope I haven't insulted anyone, because that was not and is not my intent. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, and I really took my time writing this post so I could carefully consider how to say it. I just really wanted to respond to what SpaceDaisy said with my point of view. As she also said, this discussion has been really interesting, really enlightening and really civil -- kudos to all who have been participating, I think we ALL deserve a pat on the back! :smile1:

[SpaceDaisy42]

Heh, I was thinking about some of the stuff said last night in my post and I realized before I got on that I said some things that could be easily miscontrued so I wanted to follow up my post with an explaination. As far as it being dour. it's not dour, but I do feel like people have this picture of Christians blindly believing something simply to feel good about themselves. That's not the case. I don't believe it to feel good about myself. And I do recieve joy from it, the joy that comes from peace and from having a relationship with God. But it's not easy to be a Christian, contrary to what I feel is popular belief. So my post tended to point that out. Because I feel like often Christians are categorized as unthinking people who rely on Christianity as a crutch.

I don't beat myself up, it requires me to see myself as I am, and like Erin pointed out, we're all flawed. But seeing these flaws brings me to a place where i realize I need God. it's not about how imperfect I am, that only gets me to the point where I know I can't do it alone, it's about surrendering to God and allowing him to do the work in you that you can never do on your own. And that's another point of joy. Also I don't beat myself up because yeah I'm flawed, every person is, but God loves me and sees me as something precious and valuable. Who am I to argue with God? And it doesn't require cowering, it simply requires coming to God. He isn't out to make us beg for forgiveness. His desire is a relationship with us. A love relationship. Sorry I made it sound so harsh, lol. Apparently I represented things completely wrong without meaning to.

Finally something no one has said but I felt the need to make clear. I spoke about Christianity being hard. It is hard, but I won't deny there are other religions who are harrassed and that it is difficult to live their lifestyle out in today's culture as well. My apologies if it seemed like I was saying Christianity is the only belief system that it's difficult to live out. Not what I intended. I was writing with the thought that many people seem to think of Christians and Christianity as weak, and this is not the case at all.

I appreciate your insights HMV and Rell. :) As far as me, I believe what I believe because there are changes in me that would not have been possible without God. My logic has never found anything to make me feel my experience is wrong so far and I don't expect it ever will.

[Rellevart]

Thanks for clarifying, SpaceDaisy - I'm glad that it's not all gloom and doom for you. :wink1: I don't think most people use religion as a crutch or see religious people as weak or blind. Half of my family is quite religious and they're scientists and mathemeticians, very smart, if not brilliant people. They follow that path because they choose to and it's the right thing for them, not because they fell into it from weakness or stupidity, so I've never thought of religious people that way.

I'm curious though, when you say it's difficult to live out your lifestyle in today's culture are you talking about peer pressure - like people giving you grief because you don't want to, I don't know, take drugs or have indiscriminate sex or something? Or is it something deeper than that? I know lots of religious people and I've never heard anybody say that their religion makes life difficult for them before, so you've intrigued me. :smile1:

[LetterB]

Let me just say it again... I am loving this thread. With that out there I will post. Christianity is not any easy road as SpaceDaisy was saying. Part of being a Christian is dying to yourself and allowing Christ to take over. Christ is Savior and Lord. Christ saves you from your sins and gives you eternal life on no merit of your own. Right there is one of the first struggles... I can not do anything to save myself. Christ is also Lord which means he rules over you. This is a struggle we want control, we want to do things our way. We have to give our control up and recognize that God is soveriegn. This goes against our nature. It's not only that Christ calls us not to have sex outside of marriage or whathave you... it's that Christ calls me to love people who hate me and persicute me and not only love them, but love them as He loves me and as I love myself. He calls me to live a holy and blameless life, and not cause others to stumble... But there is another side to it. I know!! I know that I serve a living God. I know that at some point I will be with that God. He gives me peace in my heart. He gives me strength. He gives me the Body of Christ as for support and encouragment. At the same time that it is challanging it is AMAZING!!! Does that make sence? I am short on time... going to a Cincy Bengals game! Who-Dey!!!!

[ChrisG134]

I grew up catholic.I don't pratice it anymore.Waaaay to much guilt with it.They have to corner market on guilt!

[HMVNipper]

I am finding it very interesting that the Christians here are saying that it is "difficult" to live their kind of life. That really intrigues me, considering that Christians (of various denominations) are certainly the majority religion in this country. I can't imagine it's that difficult when you have all that backup. Try being Jewish sometime, if you really want to see how difficult it can be. Often in this country you hear about some kind of hate crime directed at Jews, whether it is swastikas painted on a synagogue door or
desecration of a Jewish cemetery or worse. There have been studies recently that say anti-Semitism is on the rise in the United States. So if you want to talk about tough...I can give you an earful.

No, that's not meant to inflame, but I really do have to wonder when a Christian says it's "hard to be a Christian" in the United States these days...

[LovinLennon909]

My little sister's best friend has an aunt who lives in New York. This woman is a lesbian rabbi, and with her partner, has adopted a Chinese girl and an African boy. Talk about dealing with discrimination! I really admire this warm, loving, beautiful woman.

But she is inherently "wrong," according to you Christian-folk, because of:
1. her sexuality, and
2. her faith.

The lack of tolerance shown in the name of God is disgusting, and not just the intolerance of Christians, but the intolerance of many Believers toward anyone who disagrees with them.

[Rellevart]

But she is inherently "wrong," according to you Christian-folk

Again, I caution against generalization about "Christian folk", as they (we? I'm not sure if I count myself as one or not, but I was certainly raised that way) are as diverse as the population in general. I live down the street from a Methodist church with a large mixed gay/straight congregation and they perform committment ceremonies and such, so not all "Christians" are as traditional in their views as you might think.

[beatlebangs1964]

I grew up catholic.I don't pratice it anymore.Waaaay to much guilt with it.They have to corner market on guilt!

Chris,

While I find that an offensive comment on Catholics and Catholicism at large, I am sorry that was your experience. I was a born/raised and practicing Catholic and I find my faith is very important to me. If Catholicism is not for you, well and good, but I find I take issue when I see statements of blanket condemnation of any faith.

Rell and Daisy have made some excellent points above. In reading this thread, I found it very enlightening. I agreed with Susan when she asked her friend, who was Orthodox WHY she refused to eat pork or shellfish; who decreed these foods verboten and does this tradition apply to her current life? Questioning and examining issues is part of faith sharing, growing and learning. I have asked many questions about my own faith and continue to ask questions to this day.

For those who choose not to folllow a religion and who do not believe in a Deity, the points of view in re the above is very enlightening. While nobody can claim to agree with everything that everybody has said, done or believed, I feel we can all learn from one anther. It is by such learning that acceptance grows - if you know where somebody else is coming from, you are in a better position to accept and understand their position.

I like what Susan said about scientific facts. Faith and science are not mutually exclusive.

[ChrisG134]

Chris,

While I find that an offensive comment on Catholics and Catholicism at large, I am sorry that was your experience. I was a born/raised and practicing Catholic and I find my faith is very important to me. If Catholicism is not for you, well and good, but I find I take issue when I see statements of blanket condemnation of any faith.

Rell and Daisy have made some excellent points above. In reading this thread, I found it very enlightening. I agreed with Susan when she asked her friend, who was Orthodox WHY she refused to eat pork or shellfish; who decreed these foods verboten and does this tradition apply to her current life? Questioning and examining issues is part of faith sharing, growing and learning. I have asked many questions about my own faith and continue to ask questions to this day.

For those who choose not to folllow a religion and who do not believe in a Deity, the points of view in re the above is very enlightening. While nobody can claim to agree with everything that everybody has said, done or believed, I feel we can all learn from one anther. It is by such learning that acceptance grows - if you know where somebody else is coming from, you are in a better position to accept and understand their position.

I like what Susan said about scientific facts. Faith and science are not mutually exclusive.

Sorry your offended.But I've had many experience's with the catholic church(12 Yrs schooling) and I can name a countless other people who feel the same way(husband & brother to name a few)..So maybe we're wrong but I find it quite ironic we all have the same feelings.So what you find offensive I find to be true .Sorry

[HMVNipper]

The president of the Secular Humanistic Jewish congregation we belong to is a lesbian who is raising her biological child with her partner, an African-American, non-Jewish woman. ALL members of that family are full and participating members of the congregation, and they recently had a committment ceremony that was presided over by our rabbi. I think Sandy and Cynthia (the women in question) are two of the nicest, most wonderful, brilliant people I have ever had the pleasure to know, and their son is a bright, well-adjusted boy who is going to have his Bar Mitzvah soon. Our congregation is accepting of everyone and doesn't expect conversion in order to join -- my Catholic husband is also a full member of the group, not excluded from community decisions, and we have many interfaith families, single-parent families and same-sex couples and their children as members. We have plenty of "conventional" families too -- even ones where both members of the couple are Jewish, lol!

One of the truly lovely things about City Congregation is that it is a warm, accepting, friendly place. Why, we'd even welcome any Christians who wanted to attend our programs with open arms -- without anyone EVER proselytizing or asking them when they were going to become Jewish! We've brought Catholic and Mormon friends with us when they've been visiting and there's been a program we want to attend, and in all instances they have been warmly welcomed and made to feel comfortable. I can't say I think I'd be as welcome in a fundamentalist Christian church unless I expressed a desire to become a Christian...the experiences I have had in some Christian churches have been very invasive and offensive, actually. On some occasions I have ventured in with friends, I've been asked if I was there because I wanted to "accept Jesus," looked upon with emotions as varied as scorn and pity by the congregants, and on at least one occasion asked TO MY FACE where my horns were! (You'd be surprised how many truly ignorant Christians think Jews have horns hidden under their hair...gimme a break...) I was also asked whether the "chai" I was wearing around my neck (a Hebrew symbol containing two Hebrew letters that together spell the word "chai," which means "life," and which was my 18th birthday present from my parents because the two letters also equal the number 18 in Hebrew) was some kind of "sign that I worshipped the devil." I would like to think nobody here is that ignorant, but I've found that when a Christian person has never met a Jewish person face to face in his or her life, these kind of stupid questions can and do come up...

I know that not all Christian churches are that way, and that not all the members of these churches are...a very close friend of ours is the daughter of an Episcopal minister, and we have always been welcomed with open arms and accepted and loved for who we are by her entire family. I love Patty's parents very much and I know they love me -- THE WAY I AM. They've never tried to convert me or otherwise preached to me, and these are devout, religious people. As I've said before, it's when people say they HAVE to proselytize to me "because they love me" that I have problems. If you don't know me, how can you "love" me? And if you profess to love me, then you should love me the way I am and not insist that I change.

[beatlebangs1964]

Susan, once again you have raised some excellent, valid and very interesting points. I, too have a trouble with folks who prosletyze.

As with any group, there will be good and bad. The worst teacher I ever had only attended Catholic schools as well as a Catholic college. If Robert Kennedy or Mother Theresa had been her pupils during their formative years, it would not surprise me if they converted to a different faith. I think she was a Pharisee. I would not wish her on the Jerk of Jerks, Manson, or on my very worst enemy. Luckily, I did not give her any undeserved power nor let her bad example steer me away from my faith.

The point being, although I used a rather extreme statement myself above, try not to let people who MISapply religion sour you on the faiths in question. Don't give people you don't respect power they don't deserve. Even if you choose not to follow that faith, well and good. I admit I don't like the heavy handed punitive approach, but that can be said about any religion. Fortunately, the Catholic churches I've attended in adulthood have been a turnaround, a far cry from my childhood experiences. The advantage of adulthood is being in a position to make these kinds of decisions that govern your life.

Chris, nobody was saying you were wrong. I wasn't. For years, I made the same kind of statements you did above for very similar reasons. I am glad that for me, I no longer feel that way. The short answer is a simple plea - to try to be as accepting of people regardless of faith. Everybody has had bad experiences with some religion or other, usually involving extremists. I'd like to think that tolerance can spring from these experiences so as not to be as intolerant as those prosletyzing prophets, zealots and those who express a lack of tolerance for other people.

George Harrison -- "if you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there." Somehow that seemed very a propos.

[luvsthebeatles]

I have to disagree with the original statement, that 'If we got rid of religion the world would be a better place.' First off, I must say that some people go a bit overboard like Susan said on the first place about preachers crying, "You must save yourself!!" and trying to push their beliefs on them. I also think that that will hardly ever work to get converts to their church because they tend to annoy people more than get people to like them.

Religion to me is a great thing, it's the majority of my life! I like the fact that there could be something after this life instead of 'this is it', you know? Whether it's true or not, it at least gives you something to live for, such as going to heaven or hell. I honestly believe that you can be happier if you're trying to shoot for something good in life, instead of being seriously depressed all the time and just do bad things (I'm generizing things, I'm not saying specifics here).

I also find it hard to believe that there is not a 'Supreme being' out there. They're saying that we were created and magically everything started falling into place. If you look at it, the world is really trying to break everything down. There HAD to be someone/thing behind it all. But those are just my views.

[beatlebangs1964]

I have to disagree with the original statement, that 'If we got rid of religion the world would be a better place.' First off, I must say that some people go a bit overboard like Susan said on the first place about preachers crying, "You must save yourself!!" and trying to push their beliefs on them. I also think that that will hardly ever work to get converts to their church because they tend to annoy people more than get people to like them.

Religion to me is a great thing, it's the majority of my life! I like the fact that there could be something after this life instead of 'this is it', you know? Whether it's true or not, it at least gives you something to live for, such as going to heaven or hell. I honestly believe that you can be happier if you're trying to shoot for something good in life, instead of being seriously depressed all the time and just do bad things (I'm generizing things, I'm not saying specifics here).

I also find it hard to believe that there is not a 'Supreme being' out there. They're saying that we were created and magically everything started falling into place. If you look at it, the world is really trying to break everything down. There HAD to be someone/thing behind it all. But those are just my views.

Amen, Sister!

I took issue with the initial statement about getting rid of religion. Many people draw solace from their faiths. Just because a chosen affiliation is not right for one person, by the same token it helps nobody to make members of that chosen affiliation feel bad for the decision they have made.

People who go overboard are in a different category. What they are doing in effect is saying that they are right and everybody else is wrong. Forcing one's ideas, ideals and beliefs on others is not the way to encourage interest. I don't like it when people do that to me and I run from the Streetcorner Preachers and other Zealots who insist their way is the only way. I think that behvior is very self serving indeed. As Luvs rightfully points out, it IS very annoying and tends to drive people away as opposed to attracting them.

I am Catholic and feel that is the right decision for me. As Luvs said, I find it comforting to think of an After Life and I love the Scripture teachings and readings. This is not to say I agree with everything; there have been times when I disagreed with a position the Catholic church has taken on certain issues. Good point you made, Luvs, about having something good to aim for instead of resorting to acts of cruelty. Most religions actively teach spreading kindness and I think that is all the more to the good.

Your views about the existence of God were well articulated, Luvs. It sounds very logical to me. I believe in God. One interesting view point I recently encountered from somebody in my neighborhood who attends a non-denominational church is that they view God as "a cosmic force" that has created everything.

[Hari's Chick]

Doesn't that kind of limit the available topics, thought? ;) I like to think that my conversations about Broadway musicals and soapmaking are pretty darn point-ful....

One of my very best friends is born-again, and in general more of my friends are religious or spiritual than not. Differences make good sparks!



I find proselytizers as welcome as pop-up ads on the Internet....

A story: a few months ago a couple of teenagers came to my door and wanted to give me a flyer about their church. They'd interrupted whatever I was doing, but I was polite and said "No thank you." But the kid persisted in trying to hand it to me and talk about his church. At which point I got annoyed and said, "We're Jewish. Goodbye," and shut the door in his face. There's a pretty thick line between accepting "No" for an answer and persisting in the face of refusal. That ain't love, or sharing; that's plain old rudeness. I think it's more loving of someone to accept people as they are rather than to try to change them, especially when they know absolutely nothing about the people they're trying to change.

LOL about the musicals! I love pointless conversations too :smile1:, they do wonders for stress relief... but yeah, just people who I feel SUPER close to are theists. I have atheist friends but I just cannot feel as close to them. I love them... but just naturally don't feel the (maybe spoken?) spark of God in the friendship which somehow makes it super special feeling to me? When I am with devotees even passing on the street and getting a "Hare Krishna" and a nod means a million times more to me than say being in a stitch and bitch knitting circle of friends talking about the lastest movies? lol Unless it is a Cher movie :wink2:.

Oh, the people who came to your door were maybe a bit persistent.. the people who came to my door were really nice. First it was a couple, then the woman came back with her Mom and a little child. They were just really sweet and we talked about the need for God in our lives. They saw my picture of Yogananda and asked about who he was, like asking was he a Saint or so... and I told them about Yogananda and they listened and were quite polite and interested. They came back and gave me a kids bible and I liked the format and read it to my kids... nice illustrations and things for kids. Yeah... I liked that they went door to door for God because they meet lots of resistance no doubt and it takes a big love for God to persist. They are not makign heaps of money, so they do it from good will and love, imo? I'm sure maybe some are too pushy but the ones at my house were just such kind, classy people. :smile1:

[ShowTunes]

Oh, the people who came to your door were maybe a bit persistent.. the people who came to my door were really nice. First it was a couple, then the woman came back with her Mom and a little child. They were just really sweet and we talked about the need for God in our lives. They saw my picture of Yogananda and asked about who he was, like asking was he a Saint or so... and I told them about Yogananda and they listened and were quite polite and interested. They came back and gave me a kids bible and I liked the format and read it to my kids... nice illustrations and things for kids. Yeah... I liked that they went door to door for God because they meet lots of resistance no doubt and it takes a big love for God to persist. They are not makign heaps of money, so they do it from good will and love, imo? I'm sure maybe some are too pushy but the ones at my house were just such kind, classy people. :smile1:

I wonder how long your "kind, classy people" would have stayed kind & classy if you'd said you weren't interested? Would they have been pushy with you? Impossible to know without testing it.

As for my little non-friends, I assumed these kids were forced to do it by their parents/religious leaders rather than any love of god; they didn't look like they particularly wanted to be doing this on a nice afternoon. As for being pushy, well, no does mean no in these situtations; and the more someone can't take "No" for an answer, the less their behavior deserves respect. It's a useful philosophy with telemarketers!

I knew someone in high school who was also an atheist. Back then (oh, when dinosaurs roamed, it seems), there were more of these door-to-door theists, espcially Jehovah's Witnesses. My friend in high school used to play mind games with them when they'd show up at his door; they'd ask him if he wanted to hear about Jesus, and he'd say yes, as long as they were willing to listen to the tenets of [fill in controversial religion, usually Satanism]. No one ever stayed. I was never brave enough to try that, though.

[ShowTunes]

Several people have talked about how hard it is to behave in a particular way in today's society. The trick is not to worry about what other people think or say. If you're comfortable with the way your life is going, then who cares what other people think? Sure, it's incredibly rude for someone to give you grief, but it only becomes a real problem when they actively work to suppress your chosen lifestyle/deny you basic rights/kill you. So someone disapproves of you--so what? The only approval you need is your own. Self-approval is a major step toward inner peace.

(Spoken as the daughter of two Rational-Emotive Behavior Therapists.)

[HMVNipper]

LOL about the musicals! I love pointless conversations too :smile1:, they do wonders for stress relief... but yeah, just people who I feel SUPER close to are theists. I have atheist friends but I just cannot feel as close to them. I love them... but just naturally don't feel the (maybe spoken?) spark of God in the friendship which somehow makes it super special feeling to me? When I am with devotees even passing on the street and getting a "Hare Krishna" and a nod means a million times more to me than say being in a stitch and bitch knitting circle of friends talking about the lastest movies? lol Unless it is a Cher movie :wink2:.

Oh, the people who came to your door were maybe a bit persistent.. the people who came to my door were really nice. First it was a couple, then the woman came back with her Mom and a little child. They were just really sweet and we talked about the need for God in our lives. They saw my picture of Yogananda and asked about who he was, like asking was he a Saint or so... and I told them about Yogananda and they listened and were quite polite and interested. They came back and gave me a kids bible and I liked the format and read it to my kids... nice illustrations and things for kids. Yeah... I liked that they went door to door for God because they meet lots of resistance no doubt and it takes a big love for God to persist. They are not makign heaps of money, so they do it from good will and love, imo? I'm sure maybe some are too pushy but the ones at my house were just such kind, classy people. :smile1:

That's funny, I can be and am close friends with ANYONE whose company I enjoy, regardless of whether or not they believe in God. That has never been and never will be the criteria for my friendships, I'm more interested in what people are like as people than whether they believe in God. I really find it fascinating that you really think you can't be "as close" to atheists because somehow such a friendship would be "lacking a God spark." That's really sad, IMO -- you're missing out on so many interesting people you could be close to...I don't think whether people can or cannot talk about God to be the most important thing in my friendships, and in fact find constant discussion about religion to be dull, dull, dull. And I really don't like the implication that if you aren't talking about spirituality or God in some way that such conversations are "pointless." That's really some kind of judgement call, isn't it -- I don't think the things I talk about in my daily life with my friends (very few of which ever have to do with religion) are "pointless," but from what you are saying, any conversation that doesn't involve God is just that. I guess to your way of thinking, my whole life is one big pointless disaster. The conversations I have with my friends may not always involve God, but they are also not always about fluff and b.s., either -- but if I understand what you said right, any conversations that are NOT about God are basically crap...and that's a really judgemental thing to be saying about other people's lives, whether you mean it to be or not.

I do not think that ANY door to door proselytizers are "kind, classy people." They are intrusive, invasive, obnoxious and overbearing. YOU might like to invite such into your home, but I would do what ShowTunes did and slam the door in their faces. Yeah, okay, maybe you think that makes me intolerant, but I think that anyone who forces themeselves on me in any fashion is a heap more intolerant than I am if I tell them to leave me alone and they persist. I have no problem discussing religion with reasonable people, even debating such.I enjoy knowing what other people believe. But proselytizers who constantly harrass others to believe as they do don't do it out of "good will and love," they do it because they feel they are right and you are wrong, that your beliefs are inferior to theirs and they have to "save" you, and that is where I draw the line.

No, I'm not trying to offend anyone (and frankly, I'm getting tired of having to explain that, but I'm also really afraid that someone will take what I say emphatically as an insult even if it isn't supposed to be, so here I go again...), but wow....I am honestly boggled by the mere idea that life and friendships and all that can't possibly be "meaningful" unless they constantly involve God...I have plenty of meaningful relationships and people in my life that don't involve that at all.

[Rellevart]

I am honestly boggled by the mere idea that life and friendships and all that can't possibly be "meaningful" unless they constantly involve God...

I don't think she ever said that they had to "constantly" involve God. I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong because I don't mean to speak for anybody else) it was just that if somebody shares a common belief, that's an extra bond they have which could possibly make a friendship grow stronger. It seems like God is something for her that's just always in the background of your life, part of your lifestyle, so that if somebody shares it, you have an immediate bond. Not that discussions that don't directly involve God are useless or unimportant at all. At least I hope not or I am TOTALLY going to hell. :wink1:

[HMVNipper]

I don't think she ever said that they had to "constantly" involve God. I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong because I don't mean to speak for anybody else) it was just that if somebody shares a common belief, that's an extra bond they have which could possibly make a friendship grow stronger. It seems like God is something for her that's just always in the background of your life, part of your lifestyle, so that if somebody shares it, you have an immediate bond. Not that discussions that don't directly involve God are useless or unimportant at all. At least I hope not or I am TOTALLY going to hell. :wink1:

Okay, that may be so, Rell...but some of my best friends come from backgrounds and belief systems so disparate from mine that it seems, according to what Lorraine said, that we should, in truth, have absolutely nothing in common and no bond whatsoever. I have very devout Jewish friends, very devout Christian friends, and friends of every stripe in between. Several very close friends are avowed atheists. I am extremely close to people of many diverse backgrounds -- and I've felt immediate bonds with most of them, despite that. I don't think that a common belief in God is the sole criteria upon which to base a friendship or determine whether or not it is a close one.

[Rellevart]

I am extremely close to people of many diverse backgrounds -- and I've felt immediate bonds with most of them, despite that.

Yeah, I think you can feel immediate bonds to people because of all sorts of things, shared interests, similar lifestyles, similar senses of humor, similar family situations, similar work situations, similar beliefs, just weird unexplained chemistry...you never know. But it's cool however it happens. :smile1:

[Lynner]

My neighbor is a Jehovah's witness and part of their learning is to "spread the word" and yes, that does mean to knock on the doors of strangers' homes. I do not agree with that, but am just mentioning it to explain why it happens.

[Lynner]

...but some of my best friends come from backgrounds and belief systems so disparate from mine

Maybe for Lorraine, if religion plays a big role in her life, then she feels more of a bond with others of her faith, than those of other faiths. Lorraine, I don't mean to speak for you, so if I'm saying something amiss, please do correct me!

Susan, you've said before that you're not super religious, so maybe that's why you have close friends of different faiths? As Suz said earlier, you probably have other things in common (music writing, etc.) and that's why you're close to them?

[LittleDarlin909]

I do not think that ANY door to door proselytizers are "kind, classy people." They are intrusive, invasive, obnoxious and overbearing.

But proselytizers who constantly harrass others to believe as they do don't do it out of "good will and love," they do it because they feel they are right and you are wrong, that your beliefs are inferior to theirs and they have to "save" you, and that is where I draw the line.

I will never forget my first experience with door to door proselytizers. . . I was about 7 and home alone with my grandmother, who had advanced emphysema and required being hooked up to an oxygen tank 24/7. We were watching TV when the doorbell rang; she ignored it because, well, it was too much of an effort for her to get up and answer the door. After about 2 solid minutes of ringing, she decided that it was worth the effort. By the time my Memaw made it to the door, she was leaning heavily on me, unable to breathe, close to colapsing. We answered the door and were immediately (without so much as a hello, forget an, "Are you OK, m'am?") bombarded with a speech about Christianity by a couple holding Bibles. When they were done, Memaw was literally shaking and gasping for air from standing so long; she started crying and said, "Stop trying to save my soul before you kill me!" and shut the door in their faces.

That was the day I vowed NEVER to push my beliefs and opinions on anyone. I understand that was an extreme situation and not typical of all Christians, but there is ALWAYS a better way to spread your views (religious or otherwise) than by invading someone's home and privacy.

[HMVNipper]

Maybe for Lorraine, if religion plays a big role in her life, then she feels more of a bond with others of her faith, than those of other faiths. Lorraine, I don't mean to speak for you, so if I'm saying something amiss, please do correct me!

Susan, you've said before that you're not super religious, so maybe that's why you have close friends of different faiths? As Suz said earlier, you probably have other things in common (music writing, etc.) and that's why you're close to them?

No, Lynn, I actually don't think that I have close friends of many backgrounds because I'm not super religious, I think I do because I don't use religion as any kind of a reason to be or not be good friends with someone. I MARRIED a man from a different faith than mine, that's about as close "friends" as you can be with someone! I do have other things in common with my friends such as the things you mention, but what I feel was implied in Lorraine's post (and maybe I'm wrong, but that's the impression I got, so go ahead and correct me if I'm mistaken) was that unless a friendship has a "God spark" (whatever the heck that is!) it's "ultimately pointless." Those are Lorraine's words, not mine...and I dunno, I think it's really judgemental to say that other people's lives are "pointless" if they don't use God as the criteria to choose their friends.

Lorraine didn't say that her friends are all of her own faith...she said that her friends are all believers in God and that she can't be close to a person who doesn't believe. I will reiterate what I said and say that I think it's kind of sad, actually, because that really does potentially exclude a lot of really interesting people from her friendship circle...but after all, discussing anything other than God is "pointless," right? I'm not criticizing Lorraine for her choices at all -- but who is ANYONE to say that anyone else's lives and friendships are "ultimately pointless?" That's all...I just feel like that was kind of judgemental. I hope it wasn't meant that way.

[HMVNipper]

My neighbor is a Jehovah's witness and part of their learning is to "spread the word" and yes, that does mean to knock on the doors of strangers' homes. I do not agree with that, but am just mentioning it to explain why it happens.

Yeah, the Jehovah's Witnesses used to come around on Saturday morning in our area, when the more religious Jews in our heavily Jewish neighborhood were likely to be in synagogue. They figured if they actually caught a Jew at home, they had a better chance of converting him!! (And this isn't just speculation -- on one of the very few occasions my dad actually answered the door to them (because they would keep ringing and ringing and ringing and NOT LEAVE if they suspected you were in the house) one of them said as much to him!

As I said before, spread the word all you want, but if I say no, I mean no, and leave me ALONE!! I don't mind of someone asks me if I want to hear what they say and respect it when I say no thanks, but I do mind invasion of my personal space and home, especially if I say I'm not interested!

[Rellevart]

who is ANYONE to say that anyone else's lives and friendships are "ultimately pointless?" That's all...I just feel like that was kind of judgemental. I hope it wasn't meant that way.

I don't think it was. At least I didn't read it that way. I didn't read it as at all judgemental, just stating a personal opinion, not saying that it had to be the same for you or I or anybody else. I might think that conversations about sports statistics are pointless to me, but that doesn't mean that I'm condemning my brothers for thinking they're the most meaningful thing in the universe. :wink1:

[beatlebangs1964]

Which all goes back to respecting one another and not trying to force one's beliefs on others.

When the Jehovah's Witnesses used to come around my neighborhood and ring the bell, I would not answer the door. When I was about 8, I heard them hounding the neighbor across the hall and I was told in no uncertain terms not to answer that door. It bothered me then and now that the Jehova's Witnesses, as Susan said were "invading one's personal space" as the neighbor was plainly upset and finally just closed her door in their faces.

I certainly don't mean to offend anybody and this is NOT a blanket criticism of any faith, Jehovah's Witnesses or otherwise. This is just a statement about behavior and how it affects other people.

That was the day I vowed NEVER to push my beliefs and opinions on anyone. I understand that was an extreme situation and not typical of all Christians, but there is ALWAYS a better way to spread your views (religious or otherwise) than by invading someone's home and privacy.

My point exactly, Darl. What they did in that case with your grandmother exceeds all bounds of courtesy and respect. Instead of seeing that here is a seriously ill woman with a young granddaughter, they bulldozed on with their brand of worship.

The priest at my church has said any number of times that a compassionate and fair way to "witness" is to set an example by one's actions. He frowned on prosletyzing and has encouraged people to live their beliefs without forcing them on others. That summed it up well.

[HMVNipper]

I don't think it was. At least I didn't read it that way. I didn't read it as at all judgemental, just stating a personal opinion, not saying that it had to be the same for you or I or anybody else. I might think that conversations about sports statistics are pointless to me, but that doesn't mean that I'm condemning my brothers for thinking they're the most meaningful thing in the universe. :wink1:

Okay, good point, but I wonder if Lorraine would clarify when she gets a chance. As I said, I don't think she necessarily meant it to be judgemental, but obviously it can be read and taken either way. And I don't think discussions about God are pointless, btw -- I just don't think they are the ONLY kinds of discussions that are worthwhile.

[Lynner]

Thanks for your comments to my comments/questions Susan! (I'm too lazy to quote them all.) :smile1: It's probably best to have Lorraine answer for herself, whenever she gets back to this topic, rather than to speculate what she meant.

I wasn't sure of some of you earlier statements, so thank you for clarifying.

I find it most interesting to read all of the posts on this topic. Most do not agree with my viewpoint We all do follow very differnt paths in our lives, but every so often paths cross and we learn a little and probably teach a little at every junction.

[beatlebangs1964]

I agree, Lynner, that people do learn from one another. That is what faith sharing is all about. Any road will take you there if you believe. That is the short version of how people enrich and touch one another through faith sharing. It's what you believe.

[Hari's Chick]

I wonder how long your "kind, classy people" would have stayed kind & classy if you'd said you weren't interested? Would they have been pushy with you? Impossible to know without testing it.

As for my little non-friends, I assumed these kids were forced to do it by their parents/religious leaders rather than any love of god; they didn't look like they particularly wanted to be doing this on a nice afternoon. As for being pushy, well, no does mean no in these situtations; and the more someone can't take "No" for an answer, the less their behavior deserves respect. It's a useful philosophy with telemarketers!

I knew someone in high school who was also an atheist. Back then (oh, when dinosaurs roamed, it seems), there were more of these door-to-door theists, espcially Jehovah's Witnesses. My friend in high school used to play mind games with them when they'd show up at his door; they'd ask him if he wanted to hear about Jesus, and he'd say yes, as long as they were willing to listen to the tenets of [fill in controversial religion, usually Satanism]. No one ever stayed. I was never brave enough to try that, though.

Hmm, I cannot say how the door to door folks would have behaved if I were not interested... or going further, if I were impolite to them. Could they have responded poorly... seems like a silly question because we all can respond poorly at times. It is not a reflection on their Godliness or sincerity, just a testament to their (our) humanity.

Asking Jehovah's Witnesses to listen about Satanism sounds intentionally antagonistic... and imo is just kind of immature. Sorry, my opinion though.

[Hari's Chick]

I have to do this quote thingie a little different cuz there are so many points here... k... this is answering Nipper....

>>>>>That's funny, I can be and am close friends with ANYONE whose company I enjoy, regardless of whether or not they believe in God. That has never been and never will be the criteria for my friendships, I'm more interested in what people are like as people than whether they believe in God.

I don't have much criteria for friendships. If people are nice to me, I'm their friend? And yeah, I am close to lots of people... and not all believe in God. One friend I have loved for years and years is even a satanist. I do NOT like discussing religion with her though. :afraid5: She will never understand my point of view and I will never understand hers... but I love her to pieces.

I really find it fascinating that you really think you can't be "as close" to atheists because somehow such a friendship would be "lacking a God spark." That's really sad, IMO -- you're missing out on so many interesting people you could be close to...

I've been very close to some atheists :wink2:


I don't think whether people can or cannot talk about God to be the most important thing in my friendships, and in fact find constant discussion about religion to be dull, dull, dull.

But that is okay then? I mean, if I am hanging with non religious people, I generally am not chanting Hare Krishna at them, hee hee... I like hearing about lots of things?


And I really don't like the implication that if you aren't talking about spirituality or God in some way that such conversations are "pointless." That's really some kind of judgement call, isn't it -- I don't think the things I talk about in my daily life with my friends (very few of which ever have to do with religion) are "pointless," but from what you are saying, any conversation that doesn't involve God is just that.

I feel, and this is my opinion only... that speech is at it's best use when we are speaking loving things about God, singing about God or God consciousness, or appreciating His gifts with an awareness of their "giftness", lol. That is a high, purposeful use of speech. Am I using speech well when praying for flight crash victims? yup. Am I using it well when I'm reading to a child? yup. Am I using it well when sharing something nice with a friend? yup. BUT... am I using it well when I gossip or complain? No.. How about if I am sharing the last episode of a sit com? Eh, it's interesting, but the world will still spin the same without knowing?

It's like in Catholic school I had this WONDERFUL teacher, a nun, and she said when people use the gift of speech to go on and on about all the negative things in life they are abusing God's gift. She said count how many people in a day use it for positive things... it really is shocking to just observe this.. she was very right. There is so much negative? Too much...


I guess to your way of thinking, my whole life is one big pointless disaster. The conversations I have with my friends may not always involve God, but they are also not always about fluff and b.s., either -- but if I understand what you said right, any conversations that are NOT about God are basically crap...and that's a really judgemental thing to be saying about other people's lives, whether you mean it to be or not.

Noooo, lol... oh dear, no... that is not what I mean! Yes, Nipper, your life is a pointless disaster!!!! :tongue1: Silly, silly... I would not think these things!! LOL... This makes me giggle, thinking you'd think I'd think this! :thinker:

Like using our Fabs as an example... what John wrote about was important, his political messages..extremely important. But like George said if we all die in a nuclear explosion it 'don't really matter' because we will continue. The soul is eternal. John shows compassion and George speaks the truth.

I do not think that ANY door to door proselytizers are "kind, classy people." They are intrusive, invasive, obnoxious and overbearing. YOU might like to invite such into your home, but I would do what ShowTunes did and slam the door in their faces. Yeah, okay, maybe you think that makes me intolerant, but I think that anyone who forces themeselves on me in any fashion is a heap more intolerant than I am if I tell them to leave me alone and they persist. I have no problem discussing religion with reasonable people, even debating such.I enjoy knowing what other people believe. But proselytizers who constantly harrass others to believe as they do don't do it out of "good will and love," they do it because they feel they are right and you are wrong, that your beliefs are inferior to theirs and they have to "save" you, and that is where I draw the line.

Oh my, all that??? Okay, I won't proselytize at your door...I promise!! :smile1: :wink2:

No, I'm not trying to offend anyone (and frankly, I'm getting tired of having to explain that, but I'm also really afraid that someone will take what I say emphatically as an insult even if it isn't supposed to be, so here I go again...), but wow....I am honestly boggled by the mere idea that life and friendships and all that can't possibly be "meaningful" unless they constantly involve God...I have plenty of meaningful relationships and people in my life that don't involve that at all.

What Rell said and Lynn said very much sums up what I meant. Sorry, Nipper, I'd never mean to hurt you.

What I was saying is that ... hmmm (chosing words carefully)... you know how Jesus says "whenever two or more of you are gathered in my name, there is Love"? That is what I was taught even as a little girl, and it rings true for me that... if people talk about God to hear themselves talk and feel holy then it is thin and pointless... however, if people are really tuned in to God and share His Love, His word, His messages... His story... I personally can open myself up to a bliss which I do not experience in secular conversation. That is just me? I'm allowed that, right? (ducks under computer chair to hide!!!)

[Hari's Chick]

I don't think she ever said that they had to "constantly" involve God. I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong because I don't mean to speak for anybody else) it was just that if somebody shares a common belief, that's an extra bond they have which could possibly make a friendship grow stronger. It seems like God is something for her that's just always in the background of your life, part of your lifestyle, so that if somebody shares it, you have an immediate bond. Not that discussions that don't directly involve God are useless or unimportant at all. At least I hope not or I am TOTALLY going to hell. :wink1:

((((((((hugs Rell))))))))))) Thanks! Yes yes yes... that's exactly what I meant. :smile1:

It's like George said that when he'd go to temple... he'd hear the bells from the devotees ankles and from a maybe a block away...boom, he'd tune into this amazing God consciousness. If you've felt that feeling and you treasure that perception and hunger for it... then association with devotees can, just through ... (looking for non hippie word...) being around them.. remind you of that state and in the reminding a feeling is brought on.

In a much lesser way, the Deadheads can know how I mean his maybe. There is a chemical version of this "high" feeling at the shows. Well, for devotees who find it at temple, it's an even bigger high, and no chemicals.

George also said, after LSD, he wanted to find what keeps you high all the time. That is when he discovered the mantra and wrote with Mukunda "there's nothing higher", the interview/book on chanting.

But of course God and God topics can go beyond temple walls. Finding beauty in God's world can be equally intoxicating. It is exciting to connect the spirit world and the material world "look what we have been given"... and since that rings true for me it would feel different to watch a sunset with a person who would not be inclined to feel those same feelings. For someone to say (an atheist) "wow, yes, it is beautiful!" they may share equal love of the sunset's beauty, but .... I would just prefer the company of a devotee? I would feel more understood, and in feeling understood, would feel a greater bond.

I can say this for certain because one of the most interesting people I have known in life was an atheistic secular Jewish guy. He is absolutely BRILLIANT and I love his company..talks about politics and the environment ... amazing... but on the deepest level, we will never underestand the spiritual side of each other. It's just an "is"? God just made us different and that's okay. :wink2:

[beatlebangs1964]

Lorraine, I like what your astute teacher in Catholic school told you about negativity. I think that is a valid point.

In 1712, Jonathan Swift said "we have just enough religion to make us hate, but not love one another." I don't buy that completely. True, atrocious acts have been committed in the name of "religion" such as the strife in Ireland and the Holy Wars. True, pilgrims are people who have fled religious repression and that has been documented all throughout history. Ironically, the Puritans, whose brand of worship seems very punitive and restrictive to me were Pilgrims who left England so as to practice their chosen faith.

In another stroke of irony, the Puritans were scathingly intolerant of the Quakers, who have a long history of fairness and tolerance. At one time, I attended Quaker meetings; was friends with Friends (Quakers) and seriously considered becoming a Catholic-Quaker, which is possible. I still enjoy the Quaker meetings.

God, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Angels and Saints are part of my life. I think Rell made a good point above about how certain spiritual tenets do strengthen bonds among people as there is a "common" baseline. Conversely, conversations that are unrelated to spiritual matters are not all trivial and inconsequential. In fact, on another discussion board a poster kept dissing Catholicism and making nasty comments about the Church. I didn't like that and finally, after nearly 2 years of keeping quiet, told that person that I was sick of the potshots they made at Catholicism and the way they told people "you ought to be *MY RELIGION* like me." Well and good if that is what one has voluntarily chosen and it works for them. I am perfectly happy with Catholicism and feel it best meets my spiritual needs.

It's one thing to say what one, an individual believes. It is an entirely different matter to tell others what they should do/believe/think. Again, the bottom line is one of mutual acceptance and not dictating to others what their spiritual/secular lives and beliefs should be. As Susan said above, she finds constant talk of religion is dull x 3 as do many others. I find constant talk of anything gets old after a while. I have to agree with Susan up to a point - that if there are people who talk about nothing BUT religion, then the way the topic is being pursued is dull. Not religion, per se, but manner and degree to which it is being discussed.

Lorraine, I am not speaking for you and would never try. I think you have a truly good heart. I also think what you have done is a lot of good faith sharing. Many is the time we've had some really good, intense conversations over at the Palace about different faiths and I love that. I think, and this is just my opinion that God is very prominent in your life and you share that by your expression and how you live. That touches my heart. I think you are a very tolerant person and that speaks volumes.

I've been in interfaith relationships; have always been friends with people from different faiths and have visited different Christian churches. Every year in March, my church teams up with two other churches in town for a special day of music and festivities. It is by learning more about different faiths that has helped me understand what my core values and beliefs are and what faith works best for me. Acceptance of others and general tolerance is a basic tenet of most, if not all religions.

I've always thought George was very tolerant. He was, I believe always on a spiritual as well as secular quest for knowledge. He kept his mind open and was friends with people from a myriad of backgrounds, faiths included. Many of his songs and conversations reflect this. As a cradle Catholic, I admit that S****ism (I don't dare type the evil one's name - I am :afraid1: ), terrifies and repels me and I shy away from things connected with evil power. On the other hand, you were able to love and maintain a friendship with someone who did worship s****. This is not meant to offend anybody, but s**** terrifies me and that is one thing that I would never seek.

God is most important to me. A very wise relative told me many years ago that God was always thinking up new colors to make the world more beautiful. This relative told me that is why there are people, butterflies, birds and flowers of many colors. "God mixed colors so there'd be more colors to love and more beautiful colors in this world," this relative said. The relative was also a gardener. Although someone who predated the Beatles, I think this was a very Hari-like relative indeed. I love the message about God, love and colors. The same person would say that if you take God with you wherever you go as long as you love God; treat others well; seek no return for helping others and accept people as they are. With regard to atheism and other nonfaith based beliefs, the message was essentially the same - the bottom line was to accept them and their beliefs while being true to your own core values.


The speech of flowers excels the flowers of speech
But what's often in your heart is the hardest thing to reach
And life is one long mystery, my friend.
So live on, live on, the answer's at the end.

[Hari's Chick]

I've always thought George was very tolerant. He was, I believe always on a spiritual as well as secular quest for knowledge. He kept his mind open and was friends with people from a myriad of backgrounds, faiths included. Many of his songs and conversations reflect this. As a cradle Catholic, I admit that S****ism (I don't dare type the evil one's name - I am :afraid1: ), terrifies and repels me and I shy away from things connected with evil power. On the other hand, you were able to love and maintain a friendship with someone who did worship s****. This is not meant to offend anybody, but s**** terrifies me and that is one thing that I would never seek.

God is most important to me. A very wise relative told me many years ago that God was always thinking up new colors to make the world more beautiful. This relative told me that is why there are people, butterflies, birds and flowers of many colors. "God mixed colors so there'd be more colors to love and more beautiful colors in this world," this relative said. The relative was also a gardener. Although someone who predated the Beatles, I think this was a very Hari-like relative indeed. I love the message about God, love and colors. The same person would say that if you take God with you wherever you go as long as you love God; treat others well; seek no return for helping others and accept people as they are. With regard to atheism and other nonfaith based beliefs, the message was essentially the same - the bottom line was to accept them and their beliefs while being true to your own core values.


The speech of flowers excels the flowers of speech
But what's often in your heart is the hardest thing to reach
And life is one long mystery, my friend.
So live on, live on, the answer's at the end.

BB, Those are such interesting observations about the Quakers and Puritans. Quakers are lovely people, I agree. I went to a religious (in fact sponsered by Catholic church) conference on tolerance years back and was so impressed by the Quaker speaker.

And good you spoke up for your beliefs on that board! George said once people can say all kinds of things but you say the word God and everyone gets quiet. So, good for you, that is awesome.

The S****ism thing (I'll use asterisks to make you comfortable)... a few thoughts on that.. years ago I gave up a friendship because my friend got into that whole thing and was really 'in the face' about it? (That was another friend.) I just had to tell her I did not approve and while I loved her I could not be around and watch her do the things she was doing to her life. It made me too sad. However, years later we (recently in fact) hooked up again and she long ago found out the hard way how wrong that was for her. It was a life lesson and so she moved through it and now has a very positive approach (eclectic) to life and spirit. So, in some ways, you see...I am not entirely tolerant? BUT... the friend I spoke of above (in my prior post) was *severely* abused as a child by a Mom who would abuse as she evoked Christ's name and supposed 'reasoning'. That abuse drove my friend into what I feel is "reactionary s****ism". She acts very tough but under it all her heart is like gold and I can see it's vulnerable. For her I always think it is a way of pushing away the pain of childhood. She has heard me out on some Hindu topics through the years and listened without actually being criitical... so I feel that is a good thing. I don't know if that makes sense...

In ISKCON there are demons Lord Krishna kills and that, but the concept of a devil is quite different. Instead of a devil which tries to drag people away from God to get them to hell.. there is a Supreme Devotee named Maya. Maya (illusion... also "God's creative power, manifest") tries to drag people away from God out of extreme LOVE, thinking only the most pure and most deserving deserve to be with the Lord. Once they incarnate lives upon lives, they can reach that state where they are not tempted by illusion and only then they can be with Krishna. So you see, the hell then is simply being apart from God and suffering on earth for years and lifetimes. Thus, I don't believe in a devil? I never have because I know God is all powerful so any creation of His is under, ultimately, His design. (my beliefs, I'm not trying to convert...)


Oh, I found this by Easwaran which says in much better words what I was thinking and trying to say yesterday. I am not so good with words these days, so I appologize. (It may be the summer noise levels at my house are frying my brain!!!)

http://www.easwaran.org/nilgiri.cfm/pageid:8

. Spiritual Fellowship
By Eknath Easwaran

Spiritual friends are what Buddha would have called “right companionship.” Everything we do, he reminds us, either adds or subtracts from our own image as human beings. What we give our time and attention to, what we talk about, what we read about, the people we are close to – all these contribute to either a higher image of the human being or to a lower one.

Cultivate time with people whose companionship elevates you. We can seek out goodness in people. We can seek out what is noble in human character. We can look for goodness and nobility in choosing our friends, in choosing to whom to give our attention and our love. It is especially helpful to spend time regularly with others who are basing their lives on the same spiritual values.

When you are trying to change your life, you need the support of others with the same goal. If you have friends who are meditating along the lines suggested here, you can get together regularly to share a meal, meditate, and perhaps read and discuss your spiritual reading. Share your times of entertainment too; relaxation is an important part of spiritual living.

One of the best forms of spiritual association is to work together for a selfless goal like relieving hunger or protecting the environment. Wherever people work like this, without expecting any reward or recognition, their individual capacities are augmented and enhanced. They are unleashing an irresistible force, which, though we may not see it, is going to change the world.

[FPSHOT]

Oh, I found this by Easwaran which says in much better words what I was thinking and trying to say yesterday. I am not so good with words these days, so I appologize. (It may be the summer noise levels at my house are frying my brain!!!)

I love that description. Thanks for sharing that with us HC :smile1:

I have been reading things here about friendship...how people choose their friends sometimes based on which religion they have.. That is very contrary to what I believe in.

Today I was looking for a way to describe how I see friendship and much of that is described in this beautiful piece of words.

I believe you will find friends in people in a natural way.. you will become friends with people who you feel attracted to, because of how they are... and the 'being as they are' is a total package. One of the ingredients of the package can be their views on religion and spirituality, and that would be a very nice connection...however it does not have to be in my opinion.

This from Eknath Easwaran describes in a beautiful way how I see friendship.

Respect, trust and understanding are important in friendship and respect includes that when a friend has another view on religion, it would not have to mean that the connection between you and the friend would have to change? You got to know that person and became friends... that is beautiful.. so why let other thoughts about religion get in the way.

Many here put themselves in these boxes, like..I am this..I am that... I find it all so limiting.

Those who believe in a God, are companions in that faith. Then like a tree, the faith spreads itself and that is the philosophy on how to act on that faith, in which way, in which form, one goes to the Bible, the other goes to another form of Bible.. others go spiritual like the Eastern philosophy .. we all find our ways and act on that belief, that faith.

The problems begin when we do not accept from eachother that people just think different on how to act on it.

Only because they are on another branch of that tree called "faith in God" and that is very sad.

As for me... I do not fit in any of these boxes.. I believe in God and I pick all my things on how to act in daily life, from various sources. They are all there so why not use that. I did not find in the Bible only, on how to have the optimal spiritual life, that feeling...nor did George... so.. I got introduced in to the Eastern Philosophy and picked things up from there... I got introduced to Paramahansa Yogananda and the Self Realization Fund and that is when I really felt I had found it. Many here may think that is spacey but it is not. It is a tool, a guidance on how to love God and how to have a good spiritual life. It is not just called religion. It is a combination of faith, spirituality, philosophy and trust. And the way I do it makes me happy, I know God takes care of me. I have this little sign here saying "Be anxious over nothing, God will take care of your tomorrow" and very often in hard times I have looked at that.. and then found that it is true. Those who believe will have had those examples too. Things you can not explain. Well, you do not have to explain, it is something which will fill your heart when it comes. Often at times when you need it.

So, to limit oneself by saying...I am this and nothing else...is just a pity I believe. I respect it from everybody, so please... I am not judging. I just have found out myself that from picking these pieces from different philosophies, my life has become so much more beautiful on the spiritual level.

The Eastern philosophy to me is a guidance. It is no religion. It tells you things... it explains things.. and I needed that...George needed that.. and I love it.

[FPSHOT]

For her I always think it is a way of pushing away the pain of childhood. She has heard me out on some Hindu topics through the years and listened without actually being criitical... so I feel that is a good thing. I don't know if that makes sense....

It makes sense to me... you proved your friendship like I know you do...you proved that being judgemental without thinking deeper is wrong ... you choose over good arguments for you to not be around her... then you put energy in thinking why your friend was like that.. and then got talking again.. that is precious

[FPSHOT]

It's like George said that when he'd go to temple... he'd hear the bells from the devotees ankles and from a maybe a block away...boom, he'd tune into this amazing God consciousness. If you've felt that feeling and you treasure that perception and hunger for it... then association with devotees can, just through ... (looking for non hippie word...) being around them.. remind you of that state and in the reminding a feeling is brought on.

It's true...and I believe in which ever "Religion" you fit, you will have these examples.

George said it "By chanting the name of The Lord, you will be free" and it's true. They sang the Hare Krishna Mantra over and over and it does give a 'free' and happy feeling. And others go to Church and sing, and how about the Gospel Choirs, they also bring that feeling...isn't it just wonderful to experience it? That feeling of community? Whichever it is..

[Hari's Chick]

As for me... I do not fit in any of these boxes.. I believe in God and I pick all my things on how to act in daily life, from various sources. They are all there so why not use that. I did not find in the Bible only, on how to have the optimal spiritual life, that feeling...nor did George...

I read this and automatically in my head I hear
"Not guilty
For looking like a freak,
Making friends with every sikh..."
LOL

[FPSHOT]

We all do follow very differnt paths in our lives, but every so often paths cross and we learn a little and probably teach a little at every junction.

The world would be a much more pleasant place if we all did that a bit more.

When George did the harmony on "My Sweet Lord" and went from Haleluja to Hare Krishna, so many said "how can he do that" and again...people just did not take some time think...

Join.. unite.. respect... ignore at times and not react false...

[FPSHOT]

I read this and automatically in my head I hear
"Not guilty
For looking like a freak,
Making friends with every sikh..."
LOL

:laugh2:

[Hari's Chick]

It's true...and I believe in which ever "Religion" you fit, you will have these examples.

George said it "By chanting the name of The Lord, you will be free" and it's true. They sang the Hare Krishna Mantra over and over and it does give a 'free' and happy feeling. And others go to Church and sing, and how about the Gospel Choirs, they also bring that feeling...isn't it just wonderful to experience it? That feeling of community? Whichever it is..

Mysticism has no copyright, true. :smile1:

I believe chanting God's name ... well, as George said "there's nothing Higher"... so maybe more direct than a gospel prayer... but both are devotional and both are beautiful and are both tools back to Godhead. When we chant the Holy Name though it is direct perception/connection which is just a bit different.

[ShowTunes]

Hmm, I cannot say how the door to door folks would have behaved if I were not interested... or going further, if I were impolite to them. Could they have responded poorly... seems like a silly question because we all can respond poorly at times. It is not a reflection on their Godliness or sincerity, just a testament to their (our) humanity.

It's hardly a silly question, because you absolutely have no experience with people who behave badly when they find out you're an atheist! I do. I have lots of that sort of experience. It is not at all unreasonable to expect hardcore believers like that to get angry/pushy with me. Then their so-called godliness flies right out the window as they tell me I'm going to burn in hell etc. If a person's behavior changes that much depending on who they're talking to, or what they learn about the people they're talking to, they're hardly worth cultivating. And also keep in mind that neither "godliness" nor sincerity give a person license to behave badly. Sadly, too many people use those qualities as cover for bad behavior.


Asking Jehovah's Witnesses to listen about Satanism sounds intentionally antagonistic... and imo is just kind of immature. Sorry, my opinion though.

I DID say he was in high school--did you read the previous post too quickly? And of course it's intentionally antagonistic. He was trying to get rid of those people. They cling like leeches otherwise.

[Hari's Chick]

It's hardly a silly question, because you absolutely have no experience with people who behave badly when they find out you're an atheist! I do. I have lots of that sort of experience. It is not at all unreasonable to expect hardcore believers like that to get angry/pushy with me. Then their so-called godliness flies right out the window as they tell me I'm going to burn in hell etc. If a person's behavior changes that much depending on who they're talking to, or what they learn about the people they're talking to, they're hardly worth cultivating. And also keep in mind that neither "godliness" nor sincerity give a person license to behave badly. Sadly, too many people use those qualities as cover for bad behavior.



I DID say he was in high school--did you read the previous post too quickly? And of course it's intentionally antagonistic. He was trying to get rid of those people. They cling like leeches otherwise.

Sorry you've had bad experiences with people who should be loving. I hope in the future you have only good experiences. People should not get mad at you for being atheist. It's your life and choice.

[beatlebangs1964]

St. Michael, the Archangel together with Archangels Rafael and Gabriel were demon killers. So was St. George, famous for slaying the dragon. All of these Angels are very powerful figures in Christian religions. The Lord Jesus Christ exorcised demons out of people; in fact the Cross/Crucifix is a very strong symbol in the Christian faiths. Angels or messengers, from Cherubim to Seraphim are revered in the Catholic faith. Angels are spiritual protectors and messengers of God. The priest at my church said recently that Angels spread God's word. He also said that evil is weak and needs willing agents to perform it. I found that a very interesting thought.

Lorraine, it is sad that your friend was pushed into reactionary s****ism. On a cognitive level, I can see how that could come about. Without being more specific, abuse does not drive everybody that way. If I am understanding you correctly, you were able to see the REASONS she rebelled by dabbling with the occult instead of dismissing her and walking away from her in times of need. It takes a big person to do that.

Funny, Maya parallels what my priest has said many times. He said that hell means "absence from God" which I find startlingly apt. You said the same thing in re Maya. That is more proof that different faiths have more in common than they do differences.


I believe you will find friends in people in a natural way.. you will become friends with people who you feel attracted to, because of how they are... and the 'being as they are' is a total package. One of the ingredients of the package can be their views on religion and spirituality, and that would be a very nice connection...however it does not have to be in my opinion.

This from Eknath Easwaran describes in a beautiful way how I see friendship.

Respect, trust and understanding are important in friendship and respect includes that when a friend has another view on religion, it would not have to mean that the connection between you and the friend would have to change? You got to know that person and became friends... that is beautiful.. so why let other thoughts about religion get in the way.

FPSHOT, I could not have said it better. One's religion is not the criteria for the friends I have and make; I think everybody else here said more or less the same thing. You just said it better, that's all.

That is what George did as well, FPSHOT, extrapolated information from different faiths. He made judgments based on individuals and their behavior and did not condemn anybody nor condone evil. That is JMHO.

ShowTunes, I'm sorry you had bad experiences with intolerant people. You have every right to be an atheist without being made to feel guilty or wrong. "It's What You Value" seems very a propos right now. There is nothing wrong with being an atheist or following a religion. What I DO find wrong is others hounding and harassing you and trying to convert you by telling you that what you are doing is wrong when a) they don't know you (for the most part) and b) don't know your life experiences and values.

I, too have had my share of bad experiences. I've had Jehovah's Witnesses hound and harass me at the door until I actually had to close the door in their faces. Sharing their beliefs and why they were inviting others to join them at Kingdom Hall Worship Center Tuesday nights for services would have been one thing. Threats and verbal abuse and dissing the Catholic church was entirely different and I didn't like that at all.

With regard to your friend, Lorraine, being there for her even though she was rebelling by moving in the opposite direction took a lot of compassion. You remained true to your core values and beliefs. You did not abandon a friend in need or respond with shock or revulsion when she made her beliefs known. Many people have been abused and rebellion takes all different forms. Without being more specific, I have known people who were abused as children who have vowed never do to anybody what had been done to them. Many people, like David Pelzer and his brother, Roger, also an author have been pushed in the opposite direction from their abusers to be good, compassionate people. I believe cycles can be broken and I know people who have broken them. People who abuse others because they themselves have been abused are using that a dodge and a cop out instead of seeing that abuse is not justifiable and one's past experiences can teach one what NOT to be or do.

Some George seems very a propos..."Not Guilty," yeah, and also "Awaiting on You All."

[Hari's Chick]

Lorraine, it is sad that your friend was pushed into reactionary s****ism. On a cognitive level, I can see how that could come about. Without being more specific, abuse does not drive everybody that way.

Many people have been abused and rebellion takes all different forms.

People who abuse others because they themselves have been abused are using that a dodge and a cop out instead of seeing that abuse is not justifiable and one's past experiences can teach one what NOT to be or do.

Some George seems very a propos..."Not Guilty," yeah, and also "Awaiting on You All."

I'm not sure I stated things oh so well... but my friend was not/would never be abusive herself. She does not sacrifice little animals or what not, lol. She is even politically "pro-life" and wouldn't so much as raise her voice at a child. And in fact, her kids attend Catholic school! I know this thread is about atheism not satanism, and we've strayed a bit off topic here. Just I felt uncomfortable and wanted to clarify this one point.

I think you just have to look beyond what people even say they are, because words are sometimes just words. You have to see how they act and the values they exemplify, not just those they claim to subscribe to.

And ...back to the original topic... lol... it seems I am maybe the only one who feels the bond between Godbrothers and Godsisters is amazingly special and different from secular bonds in a friendship. But I still stick to that. It is just how I feel.

George in his song said "ain't no friends of mine, who can swing me down that line..not much sense in what they do, that is why I'm calling you..." .. singing this to God. Ultimately it is God alone who opens up the door and lets us in. It is just nice when we come to a fork in the road to have a like minded traveler to help us remember our path now and then. Life is a challange. Sharing the challange in that fashion makes a special bond... for me anyway.

[FPSHOT]

it seems I am maybe the only one who feels the bond between Godbrothers and Godsisters is amazingly special and different from secular bonds in a friendship. But I still stick to that. It is just how I feel.

I don't think you are alone in that. It is how I feel as well and probably I did not say that in the right words...oh well...it's only words...

I agree to that...it gives a special bond and conversations about whichever issue will always be more close than with other friends. It's a wonderful feeling.

[wednesdaymorning]

As a cradle Catholic, I admit that S****ism (I don't dare type the evil one's name - I am :afraid1: ), terrifies and repels me and I shy away from things connected with evil power. On the other hand, you were able to love and maintain a friendship with someone who did worship s****. This is not meant to offend anybody, but s**** terrifies me and that is one thing that I would never seek.

I don't know if anyone said anything about this yet, but I have something to say about that. I'm not going to reply to the whole topic, because I may as well just write a novel and send it to you, it would be long a boring. Anyway, about the Satanism bit. Most of the times, Satanism has nothing to do with your "evil power." Most Satanists (Those with the Anton LeVey ideals) don't even believe in Satan. Satan represents pipe dreams and all the other things you need to accept. Satanism is about celebrating human nature and advancing yourself, not worshiping a diety (Including Satan). If that didn't make sense, just pay attention to the part that says "...don't even believe in Satan." You (not just you personally, but everyone here.) should probably read up on it, because it's rather interesting. I don't practice it (came close), but I'm interested in it. Knowing so many Satanists, I feel I have to straighten out this common mistake. What you're thinking of is Luciferianism I believe. If I'm wrong...I don't think I am. I just had to clear that up.

Sorry for the interruption. Proceed.

[Rellevart]

I think you just have to look beyond what people even say they are, because words are sometimes just words. You have to see how they act and the values they exemplify, not just those they claim to subscribe to.

Great quote. I completely agree. :smile1:

[beatlebangs1964]

The speech of flowers excels the flowers of speech
But what's often in your heart is the hardest thing to reach
And life is one long mystery, my friend.
So live on, live on, the answer's at the end.
-- George Harrison

I agree with the above quote as well, Rell. Hari's Chick, that quote is very a propos. People are so much more complex than what they say. Looking beyond the words is an art and a skill.

[ShowTunes]

ShowTunes, I'm sorry you had bad experiences with intolerant people. You have every right to be an atheist without being made to feel guilty or wrong. "It's What You Value" seems very a propos right now. There is nothing wrong with being an atheist or following a religion. What I DO find wrong is others hounding and harassing you and trying to convert you by telling you that what you are doing is wrong when a) they don't know you (for the most part) and b) don't know your life experiences and values.

I, too have had my share of bad experiences. I've had Jehovah's Witnesses hound and harass me at the door until I actually had to close the door in their faces. Sharing their beliefs and why they were inviting others to join them at Kingdom Hall Worship Center Tuesday nights for services would have been one thing. Threats and verbal abuse and dissing the Catholic church was entirely different and I didn't like that at all.



Thank you! Actually, I look back at those experiences and laugh. Mostly I wish I hadn't been so startled by those people--bad behavior always catches me off guard--and had been able to say something devastating in response.

I feel for you, having those idiots diss your faith right to your face; I'm always disgusted by such behavior. I would NEVER, NEVER, NEVER do that to ANYONE; nor would I let anyone do that to someone if I was nearby. Bullying is bullying.

[Muppotmup]

Well as Lennon once sang 'God is a concept by which we measure our pain', I think people who generally turn to religion are in some ways quite weak, but in other ways quite brave to believe in something that has never been proved to exist.

[Lynner]

Interesting comment - I'm curious to know in what ways you think people who turn to religion are weak?

[twovirgins]

Well as Lennon once sang 'God is a concept by which we measure our pain', I think people who generally turn to religion are in some ways quite weak, but in other ways quite brave to believe in something that has never been proved to exist.
john knows the answer now :)

I wonder if god doesnt belive in athiests?

or i wonder if there are a billion god for a billion universes who knows ??
only people on the other side of the veil know for sure

[Muppotmup]

If there is an infinite number of universes there must be an infinite number of atheists as well :teeth1:

[FPSHOT]

Well as Lennon once sang 'God is a concept by which we measure our pain', I think people who generally turn to religion are in some ways quite weak, but in other ways quite brave to believe in something that has never been proved to exist.

So the rest is strong?

I don't agree to this...faith will make you stronger..because it will be returned.. you use the word religion again and that is where you go wrong from the start which is a pity. Like going in to a library because you want to read and then look for only one type of books. Only one department out of many...

Faith comes to you.. and the further you go and the less complicated you make it, the more it will bring you.

It however is the way you choose to receive it, which does it. If you are negative to any type of spiritual enlightment, then it is a pity, you don't know what you're missing and it is so much more than the things you probably think about. It is the whole...faith... The word religion only makes it complicated because you have to choose...that has never been the intention..

[Zimmerman The Gnome]

I don't agree to this...faith will make you stronger

If you are negative to any type of spiritual enlightment, then it is a pity, you don't know what you're missing and it is so much more than the things you probably think about. It is the whole...faith....

Like Muppotmup this is only your opinion. I have never believed in any spiritual enlightment or any religion and I've had a happy life and don't feel I miss anything. This may be different for you. Faith will make you stronger? I don't know but believing yourself will also make you stronger. It's all a matter of opinion. The God is a concept line is used too much and John probably didn't really mean it as a personal statement but to some this is their belief and fine that is. We don't all need faith or religion or spiritual enlightment.

This topic could go on forever but that would be pointless. We all have our own ideas and in the example of FPShot and Muppotmup, they will never agree.

[FPSHOT]

Oh yes we can go on for years...I mean this issue has been discussed for centuries, so I don't expect us Beatles people will find the answer..because there is non... and to accept that from eachother is already a good thing

[ShowTunes]

Faith comes to you.. and the further you go and the less complicated you make it, the more it will bring you.

Oh, so you advocate shutting off your brain? Sorry, I like thinking.

It however is the way you choose to receive it, which does it. If you are negative to any type of spiritual enlightment, then it is a pity, you don't know what you're missing and it is so much more than the things you probably think about. It is the whole...faith... The word religion only makes it complicated because you have to choose...that has never been the intention..

I would suggest not commenting on the thought processes of atheists, as you clearly have no idea about the lives we lead and the thoughts we think. (Offering us your "pity" is very condescending, by the way. Just so you know in case the issue comes up again.) In particular, it would seem reasonable for you not to offer inadvertent insult by implying that the subjects we care about are inferior to yours.

[twovirgins]

If there is an infinite number of universes there must be an infinite number of atheists as well :teeth1:
yes exactly ! everything has a equal and opposite reaction :)

[FPSHOT]

I would suggest not commenting on the thought processes of atheists, as you clearly have no idea about the lives we lead and the thoughts we think. (Offering us your "pity" is very condescending, by the way. Just so you know in case the issue comes up again.) In particular, it would seem reasonable for you not to offer inadvertent insult by implying that the subjects we care about are inferior to yours.

It is very nice of you...as so many here...to conclude again about someone else's thoughts.

Let me release you a bit...I have not been "religious" for quite some years because I did not know much about it and what came to me did not hit me much.

So....your suggestion to not comment I will take on...I am sorry if I offended you...however you also choose to "define" yourself as an atheist..okay your choise...

My word "pity" is not judgemental, it is about the non-awareness that people have, like I have had for years, and it is just a pity that people do not look a bit further on the road which is so long and is not always connected to a religion, maybe I was not clear in my words, but I beleieve the word "religion" is limiting.

I don't like the use of words like "we"... you say things which you will link to the "we" without knowing if the other people in "we" agree. You judge for "we". You must know a lot of people.

[Sally]

Each to their own, religion is good for some and not others, can also cause alot of hurt, we just had the London bombings. I am probably an athiest and I have had a very full happy life thanks.

[ShowTunes]

Well as Lennon once sang 'God is a concept by which we measure our pain', I think people who generally turn to religion are in some ways quite weak, but in other ways quite brave to believe in something that has never been proved to exist.

Hi Mup,

Obviously I'm in your camp, so I'm generally on your side, but I have to take exception to this statement. It's much too much of a generalization, and it's simply not true in the vast majority of cases. I know plenty of devout individuals that I would never characterize as "weak." Just as it's inappropriate for believers to make blanket statements about atheists, it's not a good thing for us to do the same about religious folks.

[Zimmerman The Gnome]

Religion probably causes as much hate as it does love. Just look at the world we live in today!

[FPSHOT]

I agree...people here put themselves in a box and stay there...I am this...I am that...

It is such a limited way of life...

[twovirgins]

I like what u said FPSHOT

[FPSHOT]

Thanks, I am glad at least someone reads it :p

[Hari's Chick]

Thanks, I am glad at least someone reads it :p

I read them, too! I found your words extremely interesting. :smile1:

[Hari's Chick]

I was thinking a bibt further on the topic of "faith". It would seem to me that some of the arguments put forward by atheists imply theists believe based on faith... which seems in their perception an exaggerated version of hopefulness? Being reallllllllllly hopeful? (Am I wrong? That is the sense I got...from the above posts).

But while there are some churchgoers no doubt who go because the generations before them have gone, who don't put too much energy into things, etc... just accept and have faith... but I think in *general* people are more reflective and analytical. For the most part, we can give people more credit than that.

I would say then it is not so much a question of faith than of perception? If I have with my own eyes perceived the color green... and in your life you have not (yet, anyway)... I can talk about green all day and you can say 'how sad this girl feels she is not satified with the six colors of the rainbow...why add a seventh?' So in that sense, it becomes silly for a 'green perceiver' to try to 'convert' the one who does not perceive?

Let's say the one who did not see green says, "I have faith...I believe there is a green!" How has it enriched their lives, really? (Am I wrong here?) To me, then it just does not fundamentally change anything?

So, just as well for those who do not see it to stick to their beliefs?

But the thing remains, we can know God through direct perception if we follow one of many mystical traditions. But until we walk the path, and the tricky part is ... you have to take away the blocks in your perception before you can say you've given it a fair chance, lol... but if you walk the path, and STILL no 'green'... well, at least you've gained experience and lost little in the process, imo.

But sometimes I think it is too scary to let go of the attachment to ideas. Perceiving God means letting go of ego based ideas*... and how many can take that step? Let alone if they think they are happy enough (and may well be... for now). But like Warren Zevon says, "the rich folks suffer like the rest of us...it'll happen to you", lol. Bad stuff happens and (imo!!) bad stuff makes a sort of more cosmic sense if you have a perception which allows ego released objectivity.

Buddhists do not have to be theists. That is another really positive route for people who just do not resonate with God personalized/ cosmically impersonalized.

*disclaimer~ please do not take this as in any way an attack, it is just thoughts. I am not calling atheists egocentric, but speaking as in the mystical tradion definition of 'ego'. Wasn't it St Paul (not sure) who said "I die daily"? To die daily to our own egos... a job for anyone who choses such a path, not just atheists

[Hari's Chick]

sorry, error in posting...

[Zimmerman The Gnome]

Let alone if they think they are happy enough to being with (and may well be... for now).



Maybe I miss understand this point but are you implying that you can only be happy in your life up till a point and then need something else. If so, then I disagree completely. People can go through life and be at one with themselves and keep going right to the death. There is no need for God or whatever to become involved.

[Hari's Chick]

Maybe I miss understand this point but are you implying that you can only be happy in your life up till a point and then need something else. If so, then I disagree completely. People can go through life and be at one with themselves and keep going right to the death. There is no need for God or whatever to become involved.

To be honest, I will have to give this some thought?

I do think Buddhists can experience the bliss of mystics... but then again, we belive Buddha to be a kind of incarnation of God sent specifically for atheists. So.... ???

Let me think a bit here... :smile1:

[Hari's Chick]

Maybe I miss understand this point but are you implying that you can only be happy in your life up till a point and then need something else. If so, then I disagree completely. People can go through life and be at one with themselves and keep going right to the death. There is no need for God or whatever to become involved.

When I said "for now" though... I was referring to (and am curious about) how atheists chose to individually make sense of the tragedy of life when it directly impacts them or their families?

I could easily accept the theory of "oh well, life sucks sometimes"... I am not attached to answers... but the ones I found to be true and resonate with life as I perceive it... well... I suppose by definition atheists would have the "life just sucks sometimes" approach to tragedy, is that true?

The sense of senselessness then can not sustain a deep inner sensibilty with the universe ...or can it? Educate me here. :smile1: I am curious.

[ringo_rama]

Question for the Atheists--and this is a serious question--how do you guys think the world/universe was created?

My opinion on Atheists--and let me remind you that this is not a personal attack on anyone--is: what are you guys living for? Do you have anything to look forward to after you die? I'm not telling you guys to commit suicide, I'm just asking what you think the purpose of life is.

Zimmerman
Religion probably causes as much hate as it does love. Just look at the world we live in today!

I agree with your statement, but like many of the ones posted in this topic, it's too generalizing. There are a lot of religious zealouts out there who will go completely against their beliefs in order to prove their religion is right--I don't agree with these people and most people don't.

Before anyone asks us why people "blindly" follow a religion led by someone that has never been proven to exist, you can't prove God's (or Allah, Buddha, etc.) existence with extensive research, mathematic formulas, and the like. It's not science.

You have to look in your heart. And I know it sounds corny but hear me out. There have been so many experiences in my life that I would never have made it through if I didn't trust in something. I look in my heart and I can feel that God is with me. You don't need a spiritual reawakening. You just need to live your life and trust that God (or something) is with you. But if you refuse to believe until there's scientific proof...that's not faith.

Finally, I'd like to echo almost everything FPSHOT and Hari's Chick have said in this topic. :thumbu1:

[Zimmerman The Gnome]

Question for the Atheists--and this is a serious question--how do you guys think the world/universe was created?

My opinion on Atheists--and let me remind you that this is not a personal attack on anyone--is: what are you guys living for?.

The world was created by nature taking its course and evolving. My belief anyway and I think most scientists belief. They and I may be wrong!!

What am I living for? Because I have been blessed with life and I try to enjoy as much as I can. After I die? I'll take it as it comes, seriously I dont think about it and I see no reason to!

[FPSHOT]

You have to look in your heart. And I know it sounds corny but hear me out. There have been so many experiences in my life that I would never have made it through if I didn't trust in something. I look in my heart and I can feel that God is with me. You don't need a spiritual reawakening. You just need to live your life and trust that God (or something) is with you. But if you refuse to believe until there's scientific proof...that's be faith.

This is beautiful...

[Rellevart]

I like the idea of being spiritual without necessarily having to be conventionally religious. I agree with FPSHOT in that sometimes the problem stems with all the narrow definitions of religion and the way some religions seem to be so hung about about if you're "one of them" or not that they lose sight of what their larger purpose is.

[matt5]

There are six billion people living in the world today. They all see the universe in their own unique and special way.

The 'truth' is different for everybody. Everyone must choose their own path.

[twovirgins]

"The answer is blowin in the wind "
Bob

[LittleDarlin909]

Well as Lennon once sang 'God is a concept by which we measure our pain', I think people who generally turn to religion are in some ways quite weak, but in other ways quite brave to believe in something that has never been proved to exist.

That's a pretty arrogant generalization, don't you think? I know plenty of weak-minded/spirited atheists! By the way, these kinds of passive-aggressive digs at religion and the religious are beyond uncalled for.

[LittleDarlin909]

My opinion on Atheists--and let me remind you that this is not a personal attack on anyone--is: what are you guys living for? Do you have anything to look forward to after you die? I'm not telling you guys to commit suicide, I'm just asking what you think the purpose of life is.

Well, I live to experience as much as I can. I live in hope of making the world better in my own small way. But mostly, I live for the people I love. I assume that when I die, I die, and that's the end. My life's purpose is to live a purposeful life.

I didn't wake up one morning and decide, "Religion is too hard. . . I think I'll be an atheist!" I struggled to find God for, well, most of my life. I went to churches of pretty much every Christian denomination--Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Morman, Catholic, Nondenominational--to try and find and feel God. When I still felt empty, I began to study other religions--Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam. I still felt so afraid and alone. I tried just praying, begging for God to find me, since I couldn't seem to find Him. Eventually, (I'll admit, originally out of anger and frustration) I tried finding my own way and relying on myself for strength and answers. All the pain and emptiness went away. I have found peace, happiness, confidence, and understanding through atheism, just as I'm sure all of you have found through your respective religions. You don't have to agree with my choice, or the path I took to reach my conclusion. It is the right choice for me and it is MY reality). If you are so lucky as to be able to feel the presence of God, more power to you! Your faith in God does not make Him any more real to me; my belief that there is no God should not make Him any less real to you.

[beatlebangs1964]

Zim talked earlier of strife in the name of religion. That is true - there is no denying it. Look at what has been taking place in Ireland for years! In 1712, Jonathan Swift said, "we have just enough religion to make us hate, but not love one another." What a sad comment. My interpretation of it is that religion has been MISused, MISinterpreted and MISapplied to sanction cruelty and injustice. Religions as a whole teach kindness and tolerance.

Hari's Chick made some very eloquent statements about perceiving faith; her example of the color green and of the seven colors in a rainbow is a beautiful illustration of the points she was making.

But the thing remains, we can know God through direct perception if we follow one of many mystical traditions. But until we walk the path, and the tricky part is ... you have to take away the blocks in your perception before you can say you've given it a fair chance, lol... but if you walk the path, and STILL no 'green'... well, at least you've gained experience and lost little in the process, imo.

But sometimes I think it is too scary to let go of the attachment to ideas. Perceiving God means letting go of ego based ideas*... and how many can take that step? Let alone if they think they are happy enough (and may well be... for now). But like Warren Zevon says, "the rich folks suffer like the rest of us...it'll happen to you", lol. Bad stuff happens and (imo!!) bad stuff makes a sort of more cosmic sense if you have a perception which allows ego released objectivity

There is a song entitled "The Summons" which is sung at my church quite often. The lyric, "leave yourself behind" can be interpreted as "leave one's ego behind" to embrace God and to let go of secular concerns. I don't know if that is what the lyricist originally meant, but that is how it impressed me.

Letting go of old ideas and exploring new ones can be frightening for a lot of people. I think of George, baptized in the Catholic faith and one who would travel down many roads to take him there. I believe that what made this possible for him to do was by keeping his mind open; many of his lyrics do seem to be reflective of this.

I don't agree to this...faith will make you stronger..because it will be returned.. you use the word religion again and that is where you go wrong from the start which is a pity. Like going in to a library because you want to read and then look for only one type of books. Only one department out of many...

Faith comes to you.. and the further you go and the less complicated you make it, the more it will bring you.

It however is the way you choose to receive it, which does it. If you are negative to any type of spiritual enlightment, then it is a pity, you don't know what you're missing and it is so much more than the things you probably think about. It is the whole...faith... The word religion only makes it complicated because you have to choose...that has never been the intention..

You have to look in your heart. And I know it sounds corny but hear me out. There have been so many experiences in my life that I would never have made it through if I didn't trust in something. I look in my heart and I can feel that God is with me. You don't need a spiritual reawakening. You just need to live your life and trust that God (or something) is with you. But if you refuse to believe until there's scientific proof...that's not faith.

Bless you, FPSHOT and Rama for saying much better than I could! This is exactly what I feel! Rama, I love what you said about looking into one's heart. That is NOT corny at all! It's serious and profound. I LIKE what you said. I do feel God's benevolent presence. Science and faith are not mutually exclusive.

Darl, you made what sounded to me like a very fair and accepting statement. You said "Your faith in God does not make Him any more real to me; my belief that there is no God should not make Him any less real to you." That is exactly the kind of fairminded statement that paves the Long & Winding Road to acceptance of others and tolerance as well.

[FPSHOT]

I read them, too! I found your words extremely interesting. :smile1:

well thank you...same goes for yours...I find them most interesting too :smile1: