Just wondering...

[friar-park]

...how would George have been percieved if he had wholely and publicly embraced the Catholic religion instead of meditation and Krishna. I mean including religious songs on Beatles albums as he did the ones he did (some would work as written, other not so much). I see many simularities in each religion: chanting and meditative (comtemplative) praying is in each religion. Eating holy foods, praying or chanting with beads (japa beads vs. the Rosary), being one with God, and I'm sure there's more. The big difference I see is George's desire to "see" God before he died. Any thoughts?

[twovirgins]

intersting question ~!!
mabie he would have wrote

"My sweet Pope"

[LittleDarlin909]

intersting question ~!!
mabie he would have wrote

"My sweet Pope"

:laugh5:

That's a really interesting thought, FP. Think about it--no Rishikesh, no Maharishi, no *White Album* (at least as we know it). . . Who knows how different the face of music and pop culture would be.

[beatlebangs1964]

Most religions share baselines and common values. I believe had George followed Catholicism, he still would have done the wonderful songs we know and love. Perhaps (and speculation is really all anyone can do at this point), he would have said "Jesus" or "Father" in lieu of "Hare Krishna." George's Catholic roots remained a part of him. A statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary was part of the house; George often talked of concepts that are "unilateral" and precepts that are found in ALL beliefs, Catholicism and otherwise.

Friar Park was a convent at one time, I believe...George's faith journey took him down some interesting long and winding roads.

[MAXWELL EDISON]

Very interesting question! I thnk that George could have written the same loving and wonderful song he wrote. But, of course, many things wouldn't had been the same as the influence of India on albums such Revolver, Sgt. Pepper, White Album, etc.

[GeorgesBabe]

I don't think he ever totally turned on the Catholic Church. I read several quotes from George in the Anthology book about the catholic church: "They built a large church out of all the donations. Before that there was a temporary church inside a big, wooden hut. It had the stations of the cross around it, and that's my earliest remembrance of wondering, 'What is all this about?' Even then it all seemed alien to me. Okay, I could see Christ dragging his cross down the street with everybody spitting on him. It still didn't make any sense. I felt that even at eleven years old, there was still some hypocrisy going on. It seemed to be the same on every housing estate in England. They'd have a church on one corner and a Pub on another. Everybody's out there getting pissed and then just goes into the church, says three Hail Mary's and one Our Father and sticks a fiver in the plate. I liked the Stain Glasses windows, the pictures of Christ, the smell of the incense and the candles. I just didn't like the bulls---. After I made my Communion I was supposed to have Confirmation, but I thought, 'I'm not going to bother with that, I'll just confirm it later myself.' After that, I pretty much avoided the church." He also said that his catholic mother was not very religious and only went to church on Easter or Christmas day. After he died, Olivia wrote somewhere that, contrary to popular belief, George did not belong to any organized religion.

[beatlebangs1964]

I think that proves that there exists in people the basic need to fill and fulfill a spiritual longing. George did not belong to any "organized" religion, but he never detoured on his lifelong quest to quench his spiritual thirst, so to speak.

Had George been a "practicing" Catholic, I have no doubt his music would have been as unique and effective. The real question in re his music here is, I believe, is the Indian/Eastern influence on him. In late 1965 he became enamored of the sitar and read a book of Eastern philosophy during the shooting of Help!, which, from all accounts piqued his interest. So again, I think, regardless of which road he took to get him there, it was a combination of many factors - his own interests and needs; outside influences and what tools he used to follow those interests.

Had George not encountered the sitar is yet another question about how his music would have developed over the course of his life.

[twovirgins]

Now Im just wondering ..Who decided to start chanting and going to India ? was George the leader in this "summer of love" times in Rikikesh?? what convinced all of them to try it ??

[Siobhan]

That would be Pattie Boyd. She attended a lecture by Maharishi and was so inspired by it that she encouraged George and the rest of the Beatles to see him too. George, as we know, had already become interested in Indian culture while filming Help!

[GeorgieGirl]

The religious groups he affiliated himself with are organized, just not mainstream (especially at that time). I have a long-time personal history with eastern religion, including 30 + years with Yogananda's group and know he had taken Kriya, which means he belonged to SRF...and they are worldwide and organized.

The eastern influence is pivotal in the shaping of the George's life. These kinds of questions (though interesting) are speculative. I'm a Beatle purist and try to stick to truth--meaning what really happened, not what might of happened.

I honor George's continued quest to find God. He stayed true to his path even against adversity.

P.S. I didn't mean someone shouldn't ask the questions, it's just these are difficult questions to answer being they are sensitive. :angel4: Hope my response didn't come off wrong.

[Scouser]

It's an interesting question, no doubt.

He does express some of his views on Catholicism in the song "P2 Vatican Blues" off of Brainwashed. It's kiond of a satire on some things in catholiscism, like the (and pardon me if I butcher this, as I am not nor have ever been catholic) whole thing about saying Hail Marys and Our Fathers to absolve sin.

"Now how come nobody really noticed
Puff of white smoke knocked me out
The truth is hiding, lurking, banking
Things they do at night

It's quite suspicious to say the least
Even mentioned it to my local priest
One Our Father, three Hail Marys
Each Saturday night"

I don't think he had a problem with the Catholic Faith, just the Catholic Super-structure (like the Pope and Bishops and all that)

Course it's merely speculation based on these lyrics. It's still an interesting thought. I've wondered that meself.

But the great thing about George's spiritual music, is that it isn't mutually exclusive. Like in My Sweet Lord- every religious persuasion can enjoy that song (hell, people who don't care even like that song). It's even Got "Hallelujah" and "Hare Krishna". The same with my favorite song off All Things Must Pass- Hear Me Lord.


~Layla

[edubeltran]

Thankfully he was not a Catholic. Had he been one, we would never have had the marvelous "Life of Brian".
Besides, I don't think George would have shared this current Vatican church homophobic views, being against the use of condoms in Third World countries, against equality for women and wasting their money in public appearances , not to talk their silence during the Nazi years... that stinks
BTW I'm an atheist but there are some points in Easterns religions (Hinduism and Budhism mainly) that I share. But I don't think there's a single Catholic thing that I could believe. This is JMHO and I don't wish to offend anyone.

[Sally]

I am not sure the music would be half as good.

[pattiboyd's slave]

George was a master of writing spiritual songs. I think any religion would have appreciated his contributions. I've heard My Sweet Lord sung at Christian gatherings.
I've heard Let It Be sung in Catholic churches. I loved Eric Clapton refering to George's tunes as spiritual songs, Isn't It A Pity, All Things Must Pass, etc. When you think about it, almost everything George was of a spiritual nature. That's what will endure him to future generations to come, I think.

[pattiboyd's slave]

George was a master of writing spiritual songs. I think any religion would have appreciated his contributions. I've heard My Sweet Lord sung at Christian gatherings.
I've heard Let It Be sung in Catholic churches. I loved Eric Clapton refering to George's tunes as spiritual songs, Isn't It A Pity, All Things Must Pass, etc. When you think about it, almost everything George wrote was of a spiritual nature. That's what will endure him to future generations to come, I think.

[ABCKO]

Very very good question !

Yes... who know, maybe George would have done some gregorian-chant-like albums, instead of the ones with Ravi Shankar...

And I can see him getting a few audiences with the Pope over the years, if he had ben so inclined...

[ABCKO]

It's an interesting question, no doubt.
I don't think he had a problem with the Catholic Faith, just the Catholic Super-structure (like the Pope and Bishops and all that)



That's probably the case with many people... I myself believe in christianity to an extent...

... but when you see the Pope blessing a line of Ferraris... now, what's that all about ?

How can we take these people seriously after that, when they come preaching to us about how material possesions are not important ?

[beatlebangs1964]

Thankfully he was not a Catholic. Had he been one, we would never have had the marvelous "Life of Brian".
Besides, I don't think George would have shared this current Vatican church homophobic views, being against the use of condoms in Third World countries, against equality for women and wasting their money in public appearances , not to talk their silence during the Nazi years... that stinks
BTW I'm an atheist but there are some points in Easterns religions (Hinduism and Budhism mainly) that I share. But I don't think there's a single Catholic thing that I could believe. This is JMHO and I don't wish to offend anyone.

As a Catholic, I take issue with some of these statements. Being thankful George was not a practicing Catholic is a very insulting statement. That is equivalent to saying that Catholicism is wrong and is dismissive of a faith many people embrace and take very seriously. Even if George had remained a practicing Catholic, there is really no proof one way or the other that he would not have created the humorously irreverant Life of Brian. That is tantamount to suggesting Catholics have no sense of humor and that just isn't true.

Life of Brian was all in fun; a clever spoof. It was not blasphemous or meant to offend. Humor is one thing. Criticizing an entire group of people and beliefs is an entirely different matter.

George was an artist and he did not appear to harbor ANY prejudice, homophobia or any other. George, from all accounts and from what we as fans have seen of him was a very accepting man and he SHARED his beliefs; he did not force them onto others. That is a form of faith sharing. As for being against condoms, that is not something ALL Catholics support. Not ALL Catholics agree with EVERY dictum from the Vatican. Respect, yes. Acknowledge based on needs and life experiences/circumstances, yes. Agree with 100% - no.

As for the claim of silence during the Nazi years - that just ain't so. Look at Pope John XXIII! He baptized hundreds of people during the war so they could escape from Europe. Poland, which is more than 90% Catholic has had many people who have helped others escape from Europe during WWII. Pope John Paul II, who reached adulthood during the Second World War banged on the drum long and loud about how wrong the Nazis were and he and many others banded together to try and protect people. Lech Walesa, elected into office when Poland had the first free elections since WWII also added drum beats for tolerance, fairness and acceptance. He was one of the persecuted - he spent one year in jail in the 1980s for forming unions on the shipyards and in the factories and preaching fairness in elections and tolerance. He spoke against WWII; his late father, Bronislaw Walesa, who died in the 1940s said his biggest answered prayer would be that his children and descendants be able to vote in a free Poland and that atrocities such as what took place during WWII never happened again.

Walesa, et al. are Catholics. Edubeltran, since Catholic precepts include teaching AND encouraging fairness; tolerance; extending a helping hand to others in need and speaking against injustice, then I would hate to say I didn't support those things because I do. Wholeheartedly. These precepts, while not only part of Catholic teachings are rather universal. I realize you say you meant no offense in your comments, but I found them very offensive.

[GeorgieGirl]

Like I said, these kinds of speculations are sensitive.

Any talk of religion can cause offense on public boards. They seem to allow it (God speak) here at Beatlelinks because George was spiritual, even if not everyone agreed with his belief system.

We can find bad things about every religion. A Beatleboard doesn't seem the place to point them out...

[FPSHOT]

This is a George forum and George had a clear view on spirituality.

What he learned even more in the Eastern world, is to respect people's way how to live in their personal spiritual life and not be judgemental.

He saw beautiful things in the East and we all have been able to see how he tried to share that with the world. In a spiritual way, gentle and respectful.

Many people picked that up, completely or partly, like me, others did not.

So..... let's not start a discussion about the pros and cons of the Catholic Church here please other than in a respectful way. Pointing fingers is so easy, but also can hurt. Things which have been named here like the homophobic experiences, the 2nd WW, please let's leave that out of the conversation.

[Hari's Chick]

...how would George have been percieved if he had wholely and publicly embraced the Catholic religion instead of meditation and Krishna. I mean including religious songs on Beatles albums as he did the ones he did (some would work as written, other not so much). I see many simularities in each religion: chanting and meditative (comtemplative) praying is in each religion. Eating holy foods, praying or chanting with beads (japa beads vs. the Rosary), being one with God, and I'm sure there's more. The big difference I see is George's desire to "see" God before he died. Any thoughts?

George was very interested in the gnostic gospels. :)

I think George would have been percieved differently if he were Catholic, simply because if you step back and take a third person's look at someone saying "I am a Catholic" ...or... "I am involved in Krishna Consciousness (or similar)"... well, I think different images come up in your mind? That is... for right or wrong.

Of course seekers of truth come in all faiths, but there are social differences? George asked Prabhupad at one time if he should shave his head (sorry hair lovers, lol)... but it is true. Had Prabhupad said yes, George would have done that and certainly at that point in his life, people would see him differently than if he were dressing differently, more western, and speaking of Catholicism. Socially, it is different, it appears different.

But yeah, there are definitely similarities (japa/rosary, meditation/contemplative prayer...wow, so very many!) and I think George REALLY helped people see the core similarities in ALL religions. I think his message was so unifying. He had a little poke in P2 Vatican Blues at the parts he did not like... but he also was not originally intending to *release* that! That was his own working through of issues which troubled him. We all have our ways of working through things and the truth is.... like people, organizations have good and bad. Maybe the Catholic church could be more liberal (I certainly wish), but let's not forget the works their charities do. Our local Catholic church makes hundreds of sandwiches on Mondays for example to give to kids who cannot afford lunch in poorer area day cares. For every yin there is a yang!

I am sure if George had remained Catholic he may well have written deep meaningful songs with a more traditional western spiritual approach or feeling. However, I am tempted to think the magic "something" may have had trouble 'sparking'. George had said that he thought India was with him from a previous life, and Ravi's bunch said George was more Indian than most Indians. So, though George was Catholic born in THIS life, I think his roots were in Indian tradition as he purported and that it was this "remembering" of that deep connection which fueled his spiritual passion and his personal expression of this truth. JMHO...

And don't forget, BOB~ he says it all!!! :smile1:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/catcourtney/pope-dylan.jpg

[FPSHOT]

This is brilliant HC :smile1:

[Hari's Chick]

Bob is saying "We want you as Pious Wilbury"...

[FPSHOT]

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

[beatlebangs1964]

George was very interested in the gnostic gospels. :)


But yeah, there are definitely similarities (japa/rosary, meditation/contemplative prayer...wow, so very many!) and I think George REALLY helped people see the core similarities in ALL religions. I think his message was so unifying. He had a little poke in P2 Vatican Blues at the parts he did not like... but he also was not originally intending to *release* that! That was his own working through of issues which troubled him. We all have our ways of working through things and the truth is.... like people, organizations have good and bad. Maybe the Catholic church could be more liberal (I certainly wish), but let's not forget the works their charities do. Our local Catholic church makes hundreds of sandwiches on Mondays for example to give to kids who cannot afford lunch in poorer area day cares. For every yin there is a yang!

Hari's Chick,

As usual what you said is not only brilliant, but right on target. George even said "if you don't know where you're going, any road'll take you there." See, there are more common properties and beliefs among different religions than differences. The tools used and the expression of beliefs vary among faiths, but the cores are more or less central. I will admit that I don't agree with every position the Catholic Church has taken. I agree, I wish my church took a more liberal stand on some issues, but it is only natural that one cannot agree with everything. That is something I just accept.

With regard to outreach programs, my church has many, such as the Brown Bag ministries. The Brown Baggers arrive in the Church kitchen at 5:00 a.m. and make bag lunches to take to the day workers who wait for jobs downtown. A related outreach group called the Sack Lunches make sack lunches and pass them out to homless people on the freeway median and throughout town.

I think all organized religions do similar works - regardless of how well known or not, the bottom line is loving one another and lending a helping hand if one sees the need. George's last words on earth were "love one another" and I think he he was right.

I am sure if George had remained Catholic he may well have written deep meaningful songs with a more traditional western spiritual approach or feeling. However, I am tempted to think the magic "something" may have had trouble 'sparking'. George had said that he thought India was with him from a previous life, and Ravi's bunch said George was more Indian than most Indians. So, though George was Catholic born in THIS life, I think his roots were in Indian tradition as he purported and that it was this "remembering" of that deep connection which fueled his spiritual passion and his personal expression of this truth.

Good point - George might also have written intensely meaningful songs from a Western philosophical standpoint, but included the beautiful Eastern touch in the actual songs themselves. I read that when George was in utero, Louise the Elder listened to Indian music on the radio. Louise the Younger said she thinks George was influenced from the very beginning. Literally.