Yoko

[Glenn]

I'm a Beatles fan, but being only 28 they had already broken up before I was even born. So I guess I probably don't have the same emotional attachment to the breakup and it's reasons than someone who was around when the Beatles were still together. So I'm wondering, what are other people's personal feelings on Yoko Ono and here place in Beatles history and the eventual split of the group. I've read most of the major books done on the group and it's members, which tends to paint a pretty poor picture of Yoko. Was she to blame? I definately think she should have stayed away from recording sessions. But would the Beatles have lasted much longer than they did if Yoko had never come along? Anyway, what are your thoughts on this?

[Original Fan]

I WAS around for Beatlemania. I was just going on 15 when they landed in America for the very first time, so I fell into the entire hysteria head first! Yoko was despised from the get-go. Cynthia Lennon was admired by everyone. She & Julian were considered total victims & everyone questioned John's taste. Yoko's constant presence irked everyone. Just watch the Anthology tapes & see for yourself. It's true John wanted out, but Yoko's interference played a tremendous role in the group's disharmony. After John's murder, some became more sympathetic toward his widow, but I think that's worn thin. Mike Douglas (a real marshmallow) recently came forward to say what a nuisance Yoko was when she & John co-hosted Douglas' talk show in the early '70s. If she annoyed HIM, she must be the true Dragon Lady!

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And, in the end, the love u take is equal to the love u make.

[lennon-mccartney]

Like Glenn, I'm probably too young for this really, I'm 19.
But I do have feelings regarding Yoko.
In a lot of ways I really respect what she did in making John happy again, opening him out, helping him release more of his creativity. And when she talks about John, you can tell she really adored the man, and misses him terribly.
But then you think about the Beatles sessions, and the way Yoko seemed to be the one that made things worse, and possibly drew John and Paul away from each other.
But John loved Yoko, they loved each other, so I guess you have to listen to what John said whenever he was asked about this.
The other Beatles were also pretty mean to Yoko though. In the studio Paul would stare at her, and George went mad when she took some of his sweets....candy, without asking.
I don't know if it's right to blame anybody for the Beatles splitting up. I mean it's not as if they didn't give us enough.
the only regret I have is not having John in my life today. I was 5 months old when he was killed.
To have him in my life now would be amazing, for us all. But he and the Beatles gave us so much, we should just enjoy it, regardless of Yoko Ono.

Sorry if that sounded disjointed.

Col.

[bearkat77]

When Yoko entered the scene, I was rather taken aback with her appearance and her atitude. She did appear to be a catalyst in the demise of the Beatles. But she was only part of the mixture which brought an end to an era.
I do believe she loved John and John loved her. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about her and what she did or did not do. As for myself, Yoko should not be tagged with the downfall of the Beatles alone.
I was around for the entire run of Beatlemania myself. Looking over their careers; you would have to say that each member grew up right before our eyes. As the years progressed; you could see how each began to mature in age and music. The constant draw on their lives, living under the shadow of Beatlemania, made the process seem to happen so quickly. Whether in the studio or at home, family life was taking its toll on them. Each one of them began to venture into new experiences. They each wished to leave the group between '68 and '70. Each was talked out of it, but the idea remained.
Yoko's presense didn't ease matters much, so she was labeled as the "scapegoat" in the beginning. But if you really look at how their lives progressed, you'd realize she's not what the majority say she is.
So, no matter what people say (including some of my closest friends), I'm glad for the memories they gave me and the joy it gives me knowing that those not even born until after the breakup love them and their music as much as I.

[PennyLane]

John made it very clear before Yoko that he wanted to leave the Beatles. As for Yoko, I sympathyze with her. I would like to meet her, actually. John too, of course. My friend says that he and I would get on very well.

[Harbidge]

I think Yoko was the catalyst that broke up the Beatles. I never really liked her, and I think that it was sick that she sold the shirt that John was shot in. It's also sick that she's become a celebrity because she stole him from Cynthia who is now virtually forgotton.

No offence Yoko, but this is what I think of you - http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/mad.gif

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Is Paul really dead? Find out at http://www.pid.aboveme.com

[lennon-mccartney]

HAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How the HELL did you get that face harb?

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http://www.angelfire.com/stars/LennonMcCartney/lennonmccartneylink.gif (http://www.angelfire.com/stars/LennonMcCartney)

[PennyLane]

LenMc: Just type :mad: and it turns into a smily face on the post.

Harbige: I think you share the views of many beatle fans. People just don't want to blame John at all. Yoko is almost a scapegoat, I think. She was a lost and lonely person, like John. They found what was missing in their own lives in eachother. I am happy they found eachother. Yoko may be what people think of as "wierd" or "ugly" or "out there" or any other adjective you can dream up, but the truth is that she was a person. She always took the public's opinion to heart (and even tried to kill herself when the ridicule got really bad). It isn't fair to blame her for the break up. She may have had a part in it, but then again, so did John. At that point, the band was too torn apart to be sewn back together. All Yoko did was remove the thread that would have soon given out anyway. (This of course, was after John tore the crap out of it.)

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Words are flowing out like endless rain into a paper cup...

[lennon-mccartney]

That's a good post, and fair comments. But the thing that is most annoying is the nasty things she does, like what Harb mentioned, or taking away John's guitar from Julian. Just stuff like that.
I don't hate her.

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http://www.angelfire.com/stars/LennonMcCartney/lennonmccartneylink.gif (http://www.angelfire.com/stars/LennonMcCartney)

[PennyLane]

I understand what people mean. I guess sometimes people neglect to look at the pros. Everyone can be mean, but some people make Yoko out to be Satan.

[lennon-mccartney]

And some people make her out to be God!

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http://www.angelfire.com/stars/LennonMcCartney/lennonmccartneylink.gif (http://www.angelfire.com/stars/LennonMcCartney)

[PennyLane]

Yes, we should find a happy mean. You know, along the lines of, human being.

[lennon-mccartney]

That's nothing to do with what I said!

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http://www.angelfire.com/stars/LennonMcCartney/lennonmccartneylink.gif (http://www.angelfire.com/stars/LennonMcCartney)

[PennyLane]

Yes it is.

I said: some people make her out to be Satan.
You Said: some people make her out to be god.
I said: We should find a happy mean (middle point.) somewhere along the lines of human being.

Meaning, people shouldn't regard Yoko as satanic or divine, just as a human.

Sorry if my original point was unclear.

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Words are flowing out like endless rain into a paper cup...

[lennon-mccartney]

Ok, it's just that I personally don't think she's satan, and I don't hate Yoko. I'm just aware of some of the things she has done.
But who am I to judge!

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http://www.angelfire.com/stars/LennonMcCartney/lennonmccartneylink.gif (http://www.angelfire.com/stars/LennonMcCartney)

[This message has been edited by lennon-mccartney (edited July 17, 2000 at 04:43 PM).]

[PennyLane]

I wasn't talking about you, just people in general. I'll admit that Yoko is different, but I guess it bothers me when people blame the beatle's break up on her. I guess I pity her in a way. She was in a tough spot. Think of it: marrying one of the best known people on earth, to the disgust of the general public! The tabloids were basically Yoko bashing publications, and the television was littered with critique. It is my opinion that part of the reason she did mean things was the amazing stress she must have been under. I'm not justifying her actions. I am just saying that I may have become mean too if I was in that frame of mind.

Sorry if it seems like these arguments are pointed towards you, LenMc! They really aren't. But I am having a splendid time in this little conversation. :-)

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Words are flowing out like endless rain into a paper cup...

[lennon-mccartney]

No, this is good stuff!
But her actions continued after John's death, you know? So it wasn't a short-lived thing that occurred whilst the beatles were together.
The was a scapegoat though, that's true.
But you and I are only reading into the history, from books and that.
If we were around at the time, our feelings would probably be different to what they are now. I'm not sure.

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http://www.angelfire.com/stars/LennonMcCartney/lennonmccartneylink.gif (http://www.angelfire.com/stars/LennonMcCartney)

[PennyLane]

I really don't know. If we looked at the situation logically, then we may feel the same way. The problem is, maybe during the Reign of the Beatles, the break up was an emotional thing for fans. When emotion interferes with logic, people tend to follow their heart instead of mind. Therefore, their viewpoints reflect an emotional standpoint instead of that of logic. the question is whether or not you and I would have been overcome by that emotion. I think that those who blame Yoko for the break up were, for the most part, struck emotionally by the break up.

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Words are flowing out like endless rain into a paper cup...

[lennon-mccartney]

I think you concluded there!

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http://www.angelfire.com/stars/LennonMcCartney/lennonmccartneylink.gif (http://www.angelfire.com/stars/LennonMcCartney)

[Harbidge]

Yoko Ono - The Lonely Egg.

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/grin.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/grin.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/grin.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/grin.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/grin.gif

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Is Paul really dead? Find out at http://www.pid.aboveme.com

[jtal909]

The Beatles needed to live their own lives and express their individuality after all they have been through. Yoko just happened to be there in the midst of this.
But you know, it really didn't help to have her in the studio with the boys...with her opinions and her bed.

[beatle]

yoko added alot of tension to an already tense situation.she seemed to pull john in another direction, not saying that maybe he wanted to be pulled, but it seems so convienent,that she eventually took care of all the buisness aspects,she knew exactly what she was doing!and poor cynthia and julian,get the shaft! i really think she got on john's "good side", just for the money! a few months after his death,she was living with some one else. but that's how i see her, something in her made john happy, and that's what is important.

[PennyLane]

I have to disagree. I think that it was obvious that she adored John. The two certainly "clicked."

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Words are flowing out like endless rain into a paper cup...

[Harbidge]

If she adored John that much, why did she sell the shirt that he was shot in?

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Is Paul really dead? Find out at http://www.pid.aboveme.com

[PennyLane]

I know it is a foreign concept to us westerners, but I think she viewed it as art. Yoko appreciated things that struck her as beautiful.

[pat]

This is a fascinating discussion, I just have to throw in my tuppence worth! (Well maybe a bit more than tuppence, but go with it!)

OK, here goes. I was a young teenager when the whole John/Yoko thing hit the fan, and you have to remember that firstly, abandoning your wife and child, as John was percieved to have done, was not received with as much tolerance as today, divorce was not quite as acceptable then, certainly not in Britain, so they were off to a bad start from the public's viewpoint right away. Secondly, yes, Yoko was different, but anyone other than Cynthia would have been regarded as out of the question, Cynthia was pretty much a 'stay at home wifie' (I do not denegrate her in any way, that was the public perception at the time) and the public, Beatle fans or otherwise would not accept anyone else. Thirdly, the rift between John & Paul had been growing for years, Yoko happened along, as did Linda, at just the right time to make a scapegoat of both of them, dont forget that Linda also took serious flak, although not quite as much as Yoko, being blonde and white (this world is and always was really racist!)
That is the case for the defence, however, I do feel very strongly that Yoko was an opportunist, She grabbed the chance when it came, and who could blame her? John was so badly in need of a dominant mother figure, why not Yoko? Im not saying they didnt love each other, clearly there was a very strong passion there, but I feel that Yoko exploited that to the full, and so did John, the bands total dislike of Yoko was his perfect excuse to get out of a situation he could no longer handle. What I cannot forgive Yoko for, is several things, I believe that John's addiction to heroin would not have happened without Yoko, (who was a well established user) her disregard of Julian and her treatment of Johns artifacts, which should rightly have been kept for his sons. I have felt sympathy for Yoko, but I always have a nagging feeling that something is just not quite right. Pheww!! I should lecture!! Sorry for being so long winded, I am Irish after all!! And in the end......

[PennyLane]

I do not think that Yoko was responsible for John's heroin use. At that point in his life, he was always drugged out on something or other, and most likely would have tried heroin at some point regardless of Yoko. She was a very smart woman, and I don't think she would intentionally turn John onto new drugs. That was John's fault.

[Andrea]

I dunno... I mean, turning the blokes on to dope was Bob Dylan's job. BUT, I do think Yoko played a role in encouraging him to get strung out and withdraw, so she could move in and completely envelop him. Maybe it IS coincindence, but I can't help noticing that John disappeared into a morphine haze right about the time she showed up on the scene.

-- Andrea (Candy Says)

[lennon-mccartney]

Great post Pat!

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http://www.angelfire.com/stars/LennonMcCartney/lennonmccartneylink.gif (http://www.angelfire.com/stars/LennonMcCartney)

[Original Fan]

Once again, I agree with Len-Mc: Terrific job, Pat!

[PennyLane]

In my opinion, western culture was not ready for Yoko. I don't think people understood her, and still don't.

[Andrea]

Oohhh, low blow against Penny there. I was 13 once.

[pat]

A. Thanks for the kind comments.
B. Lay off Penny, she is entitled to her opinion, however anyone may disagree.
C. Absolutely true that western culture was not ready for Yoko. Still isnt really.
D. I still think she manipulated John, and still does.
Ultimately, she did not break up the band, she was just in the right/wrong place at the right/wrong time. John, Paul, Geroge & Ringo broke up the band.

[PennyLane]

Sherri: I am sorry that you do not want me to express my opinion. Really, it is your loss. I often have very interesting points of view, and if you would not like to know them on account of my age, then who's ignorance does that show? I have every right to post here as you or anyone else, and I would like to think that people read my posts and think about them, not reject them because I have not lived as long as you have. I don't mind if you disagree with my posts, but I mind if you dismiss them becuase I may not be as old as you.

[lennon-mccartney]

Yeah, don't talk to Penny like that. I value her opinion, not yours.

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[pat]

On a lighter note, I cant believe I misspelt George! (sorry George)

Maybe we shouldnt be so hard on Sherri, she is new, and if we value Penny's opinions (as we clearly do) then Sherri is no less entitled to HER opinion of Penny. SHE SHOULD JUT KEEP IT TO HERSELF IF IT IS NOT NICE. Do I make myself clear, Sherri? I dont like to see such a sour note creep into what has been a stimulating and interesting discussion so far. Love and Peace everyone.http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/cry.gif

[DIGIT]

My take on Yoko is ,she happened to spark the kindling that John had within.Something that Cynthia nor "The Beatles" had done.What happened after that day at the gallery,what mystic spell or drug or pheromone she used worked.AND John was apparently happy,for a lot of years.Yoko may have takin' control after she realized 'who' John Lennon was.By this time John was hooked.In love,but hooked.As far as her music goes,does anyone remember the music of the mid to late 80's?

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[pat]

Good point Digit! We must always remember that in the end, John Loved Yoko, if we respect his opionion on so many othere things, then why not that also.
Eurythmics were pretty good!

[DIGIT]

I don't think Yoko had any alterier thoughts when she first met John.She sparked the kindling in John that The Beatles nor Cynthia could.I believe that one day Yoko awoke to the fact she was sharing her life with the most powerfull man in music.Whatever drug,pheramone,or mystic powers she had,had captured John.As far as her music goes,does anyone remember the music from the mid to late 80's?

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[bearkat77]

Hey Sheri, watch out or you could be "O-blue-terated!"

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Bearkat77's Beatlemaniac Page (http://www9.50megs.com/bearkat77)

yeah but what does your opinion matter??? you're only 13!!!

(Please do not use this post for any quotes. This troll was banned shortly after posting what she did. Her comments need not be reiterated. Thank you, bearkat77)

[This Message Has Been Edited By bearkat77 On November 28, 2002 11:25 PM]

[SleepyHead]

Oh, hey, Sherry, that's not fair... Since the deed has been done, none of our opinions really "matter"... We're just sharing opinions, and since Penny is one of the group, her opinion is as important as any of the rest of ours.

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Bearkat77's Beatlemaniac Page (http://www9.50megs.com/bearkat77)

[Brett]

Sherri, get lost.

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Beatlelinks.net "Designer/Keep Things Running" Guy
Webmaster Van Halen Links.com
http://www.vhlinks.com

[Paperbackwriter]

i love yoko.
forever///o-o\\\

I wasnt around when they were together either so Im just putting together what I think and what ive heard. But anyways I guess they spent all thoose years together and they just got sick of each other. But Yoko I think screwed up John. He used to be so funny and cool But when Yoko came along she just messed him up. *shivers* Boy just to think about her just makes me sick

YOKO http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/chainsaw.gif

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Hey its a thingy!! A fiendishthingy!! Hey Ringo its a fiendishthingy!!!

[Oh my love]

I asked a question here, and you didn't answer it. I'm seriously interested. Please someone else answer.

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[Oh my love]

Someone here said that that after several months after his death Yoko was with someone else. I wonder if that is right. Please answer.

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[FiendishThingie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Danoota64:
I read somewhere that Yoko was out to dinner with her male companion Sam THE NIGHT AFTER John was shot.
And if you listen to "Double Fantasy," her influence on John's music was non-existant by then.
I don't really have much good to say about her, so i can say no more.

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/peace.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For those of us that remember December 1980... There's no way Yoko could even get OUT of the Dakota that soon after John died. LOL! The street was mobbed with people. Julian & Ringo could hardly get IN.

Yes, Yoko has been with Sam for a little over 20 years. No biggie.

FT http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/wink3.gif

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"I would say that it doesn't matter whether you're the king of a country
or you're the sultan of Brunei or you're a fabulous Beatle;
it's what's inside that counts." George Harrison

[jtal909]

Paul could not have a relationship for 2 years in comparison.



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"Why don't you say it in your famous James Mason impersonation?" www.billyshearsband.com (http://www.billyshearsband.com)

[Danoota64]

I read somewhere that Yoko was out to dinner with her male companion Sam THE NIGHT AFTER John was shot.
And if you listen to "Double Fantasy," her influence on John's music was non-existant by then.
I don't really have much good to say about her, so i can say no more.

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/peace.gif

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"Although I laugh and I act like a clown/Beneath this mask I am wearing a frown." - I'M A LOSER (64)

[jule]

Hi. Weighing in here, perhaps a bit too late!!!

I just wanted to mention that Yoko Ono was a major figure in a very important art movement called Fluxus, which examined the spaces between standard art forms like music and visual art. She was a performance artist, sculptor, poet, filmmaker, conceptual artist, and more. She was all this BEFORE John came into her life. She has remained an artist through the '80s and is still one. She has a major one woman show which toured North America in 2000-2002 called "Yes: Yoko Ono." And she recently received an honorary doctorate for all her great artwork, and her contribution to the art world. She is not "just" John's widow, and did not become a real person when John and she met at the Indica Gallery (at one of her shows).

I say this because it seems her identity has been absorbed by her association with John, which is certainly an important part of her on-going illustrious life. But I agree with the poster earlier that not only has there been racism at work, but a fair amount of sexism as well, in the assessments of Yoko as a person. Most men who displayed her personality traits would not be criticized at all. Strong-willed, assertive, powerful, an incredible businessperson, media savvy: when (especially white) men are these things, no one notices, but let an ASIAN WOMAN be those things, and you know what hits the fan, and splatters all over the person who dares not be defined by race and gender stereotypes.

Rock on, Yoko. John loved you. And you are a great artist. That's reason enough for this Beatlefan to love you too. Of course she is not a perfect person, and probably has many traits that are less than desirable to some of us. But who among us can say otherwise about ourselves?

Please read on if you want to know more about her being honored. Skip to the end, if you don't want to read the whole thing, for a final quote that relates to this whole discussion.

Peace. jule http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/rainbow1.gif


Bard honors Ono for artistic contributions

By Hallie Arnold, Freeman staff October 30, 2002

Yoko Ono holds up her honorary degree Tuesday evening at Bard College. Freeman/BOB HAINES
ANNANDALE-ON-HUDSON - Yoko Ono may have one of the most recognized names in the world. But long before she became forever tied to the Beatles - and before she became New York's most famous widow - she was widely respected in the avant garde movement as an innovator in art, music, writing, film and the emerging world of performance art.
And it was for her contributions as an artist that Ono was honored Tuesday night with an honorary doctorate of fine arts by Bard College.

"It's very difficult to maintain a career as an independent person not only in the experimental arts, but also in the shadow of a very famous and great musician," Bard President Leon Botstein said to the standing-room-only crowd in Olin Hall. "So we honor Yoko Ono not only today as an artist and as a representative of a non-commercial use of media that are overwhelmed by profit and by commerce, but for the courage and sustained work she has done in all of the fields of art that she has touched."

Ono spoke eloquently, bearing the message of peace that has been hers to disseminate for more than 30 years. And it's a message that is just as relevant in 2002 as it was in 1969, when newlyweds Ono and John Lennon held their "Bed-In" peace demonstration in Montreal to protest the Vietnam War.

Borrowing titles from various songs written by her late husband, Ono said: "I would like to say give peace a chance. It's time for us to come together and say it again, and to realize again, that war is over if you want it.

"We need interaction, exchange of thoughts and information," she said. "True information gives us clarity and power, though that is precisely what is held back from us now. However, slowly but surely, the American people are standing for peace."

She encouraged the audience, many of them college students, to be active in working for peace. "Don't fight for peace, but stand for peace," she said. "Write, voice and appeal. With your appeal, instill the word peace in the minds of every being in our society."

Ono closed by reading "Rainbow Revelation," a piece she wrote that is just as much a blessing as a poem: "Bless you, bless you, bless you. Bless you for what you are. Remember, you are loved. Remember, I love you."

Two of Ono's early short films were screened following the degree ceremony: "Cut Piece" (1965) and "Apotheosis" (1970). In "Cut Piece," Ono sits in a simple black shirt and skirt, alone on stage with a pair of scissors. Her face remains nearly expressionless as members of audience come up on stage and snip off pieces of her clothing - some in a protective way, clipping a hem or a snippet of collar, while others seem intent on laying Ono bare with a flash of the scissors.

"Apotheosis" takes the audience on a hot-air balloon's ascent, up into the clouds over the English countryside. For several minutes, as the balloon is in the middle of a wintry cloud mass, the screen is all white, an emptiness that echoes John Cage's 1952 silent composition "4 Minutes, 33 Seconds." Finally, the balloon breaks through the clouds to a glorious, sunny sky.

Over the past few years, Ono's status as an artist has gained ground in the mainstream art world. A career retrospective called "Yes Yoko Ono" toured the United States in 2000 and 2001, visiting mainstream venues such as the San Francisco Museum of Art and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

Peter Hutton, director of the Film and Electronic Arts Program at Bard College, said while Ono's work has always been recognized by people in the arts, it is only recently that her work has attracted the attention of those outside that sphere, in part because her work was so far ahead of its time.

"I think a lot of good artists sort of have a visionary kind of quality that takes society a while to appreciate, and later contextualize," Hutton said. "In her case, a lot of her reputation was overshadowed by her relationship with John Lennon and the bigger hype. But she was well into her kind of artistic language before the Beatles showed up."

Lennon was murdered in 1980 outside the New York City apartment building where he and Ono lived.

Ono was one of the founders of Fluxus, an artistic movement that sought to remove the boundaries that many in the avant garde movement felt had falsely confined art up to that point, including the boundaries between different media, the boundaries between nations and nationalistic styles of art, and the boundaries between the artist and the audience.

Reva Wolf, associate professor of art history at SUNY New Paltz, said there are many things that have contributed to a greater public awareness of Ono's work in the past few years, one of which is a sort of cultural reevaluation.

"I think it's a combination of things," she said. "No doubt, the way in which our culture generally has examined, in the past 10 to 20 years, who we've focused on and who we haven't, and why, and our realization that certain groups have been omitted from history. I think the fact that we have come to realize this and taken steps to remedy it certainly has something to do with why Yoko Ono and other artists as well have been appropriately recognized in recent years."

"I don't think I have control over what I'll be remembered for," Ono said. "So I can't say what I'll be remembered for. Hopefully, kindly."




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[Apple Scruff]

I think people need to read the article in the latest issue in "Vanity Fair" magazine by Dominick Dunne (I am sure you have heard of him). Its called "How Yoko stole My Heart," or something to that matter. Anyway, he basically explains that, like many people, he orginally hated Yoko with a passion. And he always judged her with a negative bias-until he recently experienced her first-hand at the court hearings dealing with Seaman.

He said Yoko was friendly, sweet, funny, charming, and NOT after money or trying to make herself look like a victim. She just wanted justice. He also said Sean was a darling kid with not an ounce of snobbery in him. He is apparently an artist, because he was sketching the trial and some of his pics were published in the paper.

I guess some people just have different views on Yoko. But, after all these years, I would think it would kind of be mature to atleast tolerate her.http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

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"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams." ~Eleanor Roosevelt

[This Message Has Been Edited By Apple Scruff On November 11, 2002 08:08 PM]

[angelgodiva]

John told me a story once about how some girls ran up to Yoko with a bouquet of roses. She was touched, and he was happy to see that someone was being kind to her. Once the girls reached Yoko, they thrust the roses at her and ran away laughing; she dropped them, gasping in shock and pain--the roses were filled with long, sharp thorns!
John's eyes were full of tears as he related the story. He could not understand why people hated a woman he loved so much. I have to say that neither do I. Yoko was good for John and helped him grow as a man and as an artist. He LOVED her. If we love him, the least we can do is to keep our opinions about her to ourselves out of respect, if those opinions are unfavorable. I have nothing against her and I am glad that she was able to bring John some happiness and give him a child he adored.

------------------
And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

[This Message Has Been Edited By angelgodiva On November 11, 2002 08:34 PM]

[bitagirl]

I'm personally indifferent towards Yoko. I have no right to hate her, so why should I?
I do like her artwork tho...but do I think anyone should condemn her? Nope, we all have our bad sides, so why shouldn't she be any diffrent.

------------------
"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom. "
- Malcolm X

[Apple Scruff]

My goodness Angel. That kind of stuff would piss me off. I think that's a very nasty way to treat someone, especially when the worse thing that person did to you(not referring to Angel, but you in a general term) was marry the man she loved. Not break up a band or bring about his demise, none of that rubbish. She simply married him and whatever happened- good or bad- in that union was their business.

------------------
"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams." ~Eleanor Roosevelt

[angelgodiva]

Exactly; these people hated her for the same reason they hated Linda--she took a Beatle out of circulation. What a crime--he fell in love with her and married her, so these girls decided to punish her. There were also a lot of people who called her "ugly"; I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with the way she looked, or even the way she looks now, at 69.
John was candid enough to say that Yoko did not help in the situation when the band was breaking up, but he was adamant about insisting that she was definitely NOT to blame. He said that it was "rolling to a stop" before she ever really came into his life.According to John, the guys were just plugging along, going through the motions, but rapidly losing their passion and interest, splitting off into different directions and going their seperate ways one little step at a time.Each of them had his own idea of what he wanted to do next, and none of them agreed upon much of anything by then. Listen to the lyrics in, for example, George's BLUE JAY WAY--it was slowly coming to an end even then.
But when it all finally fell apart, Yoko was a convenient scapegoat. John wondered, and so do I, if people would have accepted her better had she not been Asian.


------------------
And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

[bitagirl]

I think the fact that she is Asian has to do with some of it, (not to be racially frank here) but he left his nice white wife for her! I mean yeah, people can take offense to that, I think its BS but hey whatever. Also, I think its because John seemed to get into all this avant garde stuff, when a lot of people wanted him to still be Beatle John. This is what I think anyway...

------------------
"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom. "
- Malcolm X

[Fly]

You guys are making very, very good points. I think, after all the years, people should just get over the fact that the Beatles did break up. Be grateful they broke it up at a peak- that they left in a chivalrous and classy manner, instead of fading away as a "once brilliant band" into some obscure embarrassing thing (uhh...Elvis anyone? Though he WAS once as great as he is often boasted to be).

Most people hate Yoko for no reason whatsoever, clouding the fact that she is actually an extremely gifted and kind individual. You read it all the time: "John was my favorite but I dropped him as soon as Yoko came in the picture."

I feel bad for Cynthia. I like Cynthia a great deal, but their marriage wasn't going anywhere- for John. Apparently he didn't dig just sitting around the fireplace and drinking tea and being too overtly conventional. He was so young when he married her, and he may have felt tied down in many ways. Call it immaturity if you want, I say its normality. I applaud anyone who marries so young and can keep it going, when they have the same lifestyle John did.

Yoko just grabbed him. And, to this day, not many can understand that completely- and few can accept it. There was a balance she brought to him and his life, and he loved her entirely. The song, "Grow Old With Me", was written in 1980- 10 years after John had said he hoped that when they were 64, living off the coast of Ireland, they could look back at their "scrapbook of madness."

John and Yoko put up with a LOT. It isn't really an easy thing to find someone you love and the whole world seems to hate her, or plain not understand that union. Its heartbreaking, in a way. And that has a lot to do with why John cooled off a lot towards Paul. I've read that Paul used to write little letters in envelopes and stick them in different places, with John's name on them, and they would be insulting things about Yoko. That just isn't a cool thing to have to deal with, and it wasn't just Paul. I can understand the frustration of Yoko to the other members, but I think actions like the aforementioned are just terrible.

One day I hope people will see why J&Y were so perfect for each other, and be able to look at it the same way so many can accept Paul and Linda or the other guys with their significant others. Maybe its Yoko's race, but I hate to think people could be like that.

------------------
"If you have any doubts that we live in a society controlled by men, try reading down the index of contributors to a volume of quotations, looking for women's names." — Elaine Gill

[This Message Has Been Edited By Fly On November 12, 2002 07:46 AM]

[bitagirl]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Fly:
I've read that Paul used to write little letters in envelopes and stick them in different places, with John's name on them, and they would be insulting things about Yoko. That just isn't a cool thing to have to deal with, and it wasn't just Paul.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My God, I can't believe Paul would do something like that...I mean I think its funny that Paul cared enough to write little notes and post them over the place, but he couldn't go up to John and tell him. Granted John probably wouldn't have listened...

Anyway, I say just LET IT BE! If you do like her fine, if you don't fine! Just don't force your opinions on anyone else...after all we I come here at of my love for the Beatles, NOT their significant others.

------------------
"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom. "
- Malcolm X

[Tim]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Fly:

I feel bad for Cynthia. I like Cynthia a great deal, but their marriage wasn't going anywhere- for John. Apparently he didn't dig just sitting around the fireplace and drinking tea and being too overtly conventional. He was so young when he married her, and he may have felt tied down in many ways. Call it immaturity if you want, I say its normality. I applaud anyone who marries so young and can keep it going, when they have the same lifestyle John did.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Had John not gotten Cynthia pregnant, they would never have married IMO.
I'm sure a lot of guys who "had to" get married resented it later on.

------------------
Tim
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/churchill.gif
Tim Brent's Yellow Submarine Page (http://www.geocities.com/timbrent.geo)
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The Beatles' Record Covers Yahoo! Club (http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/beatlesrecordcovers)
The Beatles Video Theatre (http://timbrent.tripod.com)

[Fly]

I don't think John "had to" get married, by law or any other required standard, other than the fact he knew he was responsible for what he did- and he cared a great deal for Cynthia. He may have even loved her, who is to say?

All I know is that he didn't have a gun to his head, but he made the right choice. There are too many people out there who could care less about impregnating someone. The Beatles hadn't even "made it" at the point she told John, but he was mature enough to say, "you know what? We need to get married." And I respect him for that choice.

------------------
"If you have any doubts that we live in a society controlled by men, try reading down the index of contributors to a volume of quotations, looking for women's names." — Elaine Gill

[Tim]

Brian did help push it,as he was worried what would happen had they not married and it got out. In 1963 Britain,that would have ended it all before it started.


------------------
Tim
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/churchill.gif
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The Beatles' Record Covers Yahoo! Club (http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/beatlesrecordcovers)
The Beatles Video Theatre (http://timbrent.tripod.com)

[Fly]

Well, according to the Lennon biography, Cynthia said John immediately decided they needed to get married. And he had to tell his auntie. But of course, I think you are right that Brian was definitely encouraging it.

------------------
"If you have any doubts that we live in a society controlled by men, try reading down the index of contributors to a volume of quotations, looking for women's names." — Elaine Gill

[angelgodiva]

In 1963, only the lowest creep would not offer to marry a girl whom he had gotten pregnant. Things were different then; you could not just have a baby without being married and everything was ok, as it is now. You AND the baby would be social pariahs.
John did what any man with any principles would have done in his position; he did what was known as "the right thing".
John did love Cynthia, by the way. I have seen some of the letters he wrote to her when he was in Germany and she was back in England, and his love is plain on the pages. But it could not last after he became famous because the two of them simply were not in the same place emotionally and John was not a faithful husband, which was what a girl like Cynthia needed. It was not a good marriage anymore when Yoko came along, and Cynthia has said that as soon as she saw John and Yoko together, she knew that it was all over between herself and John.

------------------
And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

[FiendishThingie]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Tim:
Had John not gotten Cynthia pregnant, they would never have married IMO.
I'm sure a lot of guys who "had to" get married resented it later on.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another point, to go with all the others above...

Remember, John's dad left him... He didn't want to leave his son.

FT http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/wink3.gif



------------------
"Music always had a transcendental quality inasmuch as it reaches parts of you that you don't expect it to reach. And it can touch you in a way that you can't express. You can think that it hasn't reached you and years later you'll find it coming out." George Harrison

[lennon4]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Harbidge:
I think that it was sick that she sold the shirt that John was shot in.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where are you getting this information from? Yoko has said many times that she's never opened the brown paper bag (sealed with tape and plastic now) that held John's belongings from that night. I've seen it myself as well...at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Now, I could be wrong...but how in the world could she sell something that's been sealed in a bag for almost 22 years?

BTW, I love Yoko. We can't even imagine what things we all would've missed out on if it hadn't been for her. So you people that don't have any real reasons to hate her, back off.

-lennon4



------------------
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/bouncing3.gif

Imagine. (http://www.angelfire.com/pa/turberville) (it's here)

~All You Need Is Love~

*Need Beatles Art? E-mail Me!*

[Prelly]

Oh yoko is alright. Leave her alone then.


Where do you get off saying you don' like someone you don' even know anyway?http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/sad3.gif

------------------
caitie!!!!!!

Hare Krishna-

A Mantra a day keeps MAYA! away....

[Danoota64]

Alistair Taylor said at BeatleFest last week that Cynthia is a dear friend still, but that she was not the girl for John. He said Yoko GOT John, meaning she understood him. They belonged together.
And Cynthia has said that if she hadn't gotten pregnant, she and John would never have married because he wasn't the type to settle down.
Also, there was a video shown at the fest of when John & Yoko were on the David Frost show in 1969. John reached for Yoko's hand and held it for almost the entire interview (except when he was gesturing with both hands or lighting a cig). It was very sweet and he was very proud of her.
I hope i didn't offend anyone if i was negative in my post from June.

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/peace.gif

------------------
"Although I laugh and I act like a clown/Beneath this mask I am wearing a frown." - I'M A LOSER (64)

[LeonardaBeatle]

I love Yoko...I think all those rumours about her breaking up the group are ridiculous. After all, she and John were soulmates. She's not my god or anything, but she's not the devil either. I just love her. Sure she may have done some nasty things, but doesn't everybody at one point or another?

BTW~ for people who respect Yoko: http://newspaper-taxis.net/woman

------------------
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
And I get on my knees and pray...
WE DON'T GET FOOLED AGAIN!! - The Who


[This Message Has Been Edited By LeonardaBeatle On November 13, 2002 04:06 PM]

[LeonardaBeatle]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By PennyLane:

Harbige: I think you share the views of many beatle fans. People just don't want to blame John at all. Yoko is almost a scapegoat, I think. She was a lost and lonely person, like John. They found what was missing in their own lives in eachother. I am happy they found eachother. Yoko may be what people think of as "wierd" or "ugly" or "out there" or any other adjective you can dream up, but the truth is that she was a person. She always took the public's opinion to heart (and even tried to kill herself when the ridicule got really bad). It isn't fair to blame her for the break up. She may have had a part in it, but then again, so did John. At that point, the band was too torn apart to be sewn back together. All Yoko did was remove the thread that would have soon given out anyway. (This of course, was after John tore the crap out of it.)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said Penny! http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/beer1.gif

------------------
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
And I get on my knees and pray...
WE DON'T GET FOOLED AGAIN!! - The Who

[LeonardaBeatle]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Sherri:
yeah but what does your opinion matter??? you're only 13!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just because someone's only 13 doesn't mean they're not as great as adults. It doesn't matter how old someone is...it matters on their maturity level. And PennyLane in my opinion is one of the most mature people I've come across so far.

------------------
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
And I get on my knees and pray...
WE DON'T GET FOOLED AGAIN!! - The Who

[LeonardaBeatle]

Pretend my post was deleted...this one right here, I mean.

[This Message Has Been Edited By LeonardaBeatle On November 13, 2002 04:13 PM]

[LeonardaBeatle]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By angelgodiva:
John told me a story once about how some girls ran up to Yoko with a bouquet of roses. She was touched, and he was happy to see that someone was being kind to her. Once the girls reached Yoko, they thrust the roses at her and ran away laughing; she dropped them, gasping in shock and pain--the roses were filled with long, sharp thorns!
John's eyes were full of tears as he related the story. He could not understand why people hated a woman he loved so much. I have to say that neither do I. Yoko was good for John and helped him grow as a man and as an artist. He LOVED her. If we love him, the least we can do is to keep our opinions about her to ourselves out of respect, if those opinions are unfavorable. I have nothing against her and I am glad that she was able to bring John some happiness and give him a child he adored.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ohhh, now that's wicked. It made me cry a little myself reading that. People are such hypocrites!

------------------
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
And I get on my knees and pray...
WE DON'T GET FOOLED AGAIN!! - The Who

[SarahMcCartney]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By jtal909:
Paul could not have a relationship for 2 years in comparison.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoa, that's a little bit of a low blow. He saw a spark in someone, he took advantage of the opportunity. I'm not the most pro-Heather, but if he wants to get married, that's him. Heather may be using him,, she may not. Either way, he's a big boy that's his decsicion.



------------------

Paul on the Australian tour: Sydney wasn't very good weather, was he? It must have been the mongoose season.

George on Australia: There are reefers all along the west coast, right?

Beatlelover16@hotmail.com

[Clark Kent]

The "Yoko debate" will go on for as long as there are 2 Beatles fans gathered in the same place. I have no axe to grind with Yoko and she did inspire some of John's fine late period Beatles songs and a lot of his solo work.

------------------

[angelgodiva]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By LeonardaBeatle:
Just because someone's only 13 doesn't mean they're not as great as adults. It doesn't matter how old someone is...it matters on their maturity level. And PennyLane in my opinion is one of the most mature people I've come across so far.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree with this; as the mother of kids who are now seeing thirty on the horizon, I know a lot about teenagers. I was the "neighborhood mom". My son had a band which practiced in my attic, and all the teens in the area were always at my house for homemade treats and motherly advice. I knew a LOT of teens. I would have to say that I learned every bit as much from them as they did from me. Teenagers are not unfinished adults in the making...they are individuals in their own right with valuable, and often insightful, thoughts and opinions.



------------------
And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

[beatlebangs1964]

Cheers to PennyLane! She is very mature, articulate and intelligent and I always respect her posts. She presents her position in a very logical and very well grounded way and she is someone who has certainly commanded respect.

------------------
Then we will remember things we said today. Yeah.
-- Beatles, 1964

With a love like that, you know you should be glad, yeah, yeah, yeah!
-- Beatles, 1963

Read www.rooftopsessions.com (http://www.rooftopsessions.com) for high caliber Beatles fan fiction.

BB1964

[Prelly]

oh well thats not a very nice thing to do to yoko... very mean indeed!!!


I swear people have no manners anymore!http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/scream3.gif!

------------------
caitie!!!!!!

Hare Krishna-

A Mantra a day keeps MAYA! away....

[PauLuver69]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By LeonardaBeatle:
Just because someone's only 13 doesn't mean they're not as great as adults. It doesn't matter how old someone is...it matters on their maturity level. And PennyLane in my opinion is one of the most mature people I've come across so far.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks! I'm 15 and I really appriciate you sticking up for us teens! http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif There are very few major teen beatle fans, we're just tryin to get our opinion out there. We can love the Beatles and have an opinion just as much as adults do! http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/tongue7.gif

As for the whole Yoko thing...that was very mean of those girls to do that do her. Even if I don't really like her, I don't think
she is that bad of a person. I just wish she'd stop slapping John's name on stuff (jewelry, clothing, etc.).

And as for Heather, I like her. I was born in 1987, so by the time I actually became a Beatle fan, John was dead and Linda died two years previous. I never really got to know whoLinda was, so Heather grew on me. I've met her. I think shes cool. Paul needs someone in his life and she is good for him http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif

Angelgodiva, I'm curious to know how you knew John? Thats very cool http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif Maybe you will tell us more stories?

------------------
Paul is a sexy beast and you know it.

Check out my site, Studio #5!

http://www.geocities.com/pauluver69/clicktoenter.html

[leonardobeat]

Yoko is...she's an interesting woman.I think
she's is the other half that John needed, everyone needs someone to share their lifes.

Whoever they are the important is they love to eachother. John loved Yoko and as far as I know Yoko loves John.
That's what really matters.

------------------
"We were just a band who made it very, very big....that's all...."

John Lennon

[This Message Has Been Edited By leonardobeat On November 27, 2002 07:24 PM]

[BeatlesFan1972]

There are those who hold the theory that Linda was also somewhat to "blame" for the break-up. I personally don't think it was anyone's fault...it was just time for them to all go their separate ways.

And to those who admire Yoko...how do you feel about the fact that she is turning the memory of John into a commercial commodity? She is basically capitalizing on her husband's talent and memory. She auctioned off a taped conversation between John and Kyoko...how pathetically deranged is that? I don't really hold any kind of opinion on Yoko...I neither admire her, nor despise her. But I do not like what she is doing.

------------------
"I read the news today, oh boy....."

[BeatlesFan1972]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Sherri:
yeah but what does your opinion matter??? you're only 13!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


How incredibly rude.


------------------
"I read the news today, oh boy....."

[PauLuver69]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By BeatlesFan1972:
There are those who hold the theory that Linda was also somewhat to "blame" for the break-up. I personally don't think it was anyone's fault...it was just time for them to all go their separate ways.

And to those who admire Yoko...how do you feel about the fact that she is turning the memory of John into a commercial commodity? She is basically capitalizing on her husband's talent and memory. She auctioned off a taped conversation between John and Kyoko...how pathetically deranged is that? I don't really hold any kind of opinion on Yoko...I neither admire her, nor despise her. But I do not like what she is doing.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly! Honestly, putting John's name on baby clothes and jewelry, selling things like his papers and private conversations, never heard songs...You'd think she'd like to keep a bit of what John left behind and have a bit of privacy?


------------------
STOP THE WAR AGAINST IRAQ! Make LOVE, NOT War!

Check out my site, Studio #5!

http://www.geocities.com/pauluver69/clicktoenter.html

[BeatlesFan1972]

If he had been my husband and I loved him as much as she supposedly did I would hoard all of that stuff with the worst kind of selfishness anyone has every seen. I don't doubt that Yoko loved John, but she's had a VERY funny way of showing it lately.

------------------
"There are places I remember...."

[leonardobeat]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By BeatlesFan1972:
And to those who admire Yoko...how do you feel about the fact that she is turning the memory of John into a commercial commodity? She is basically capitalizing on her husband's talent and memory
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree. But who else is doing something for John?

------------------
" I just believe in me "

[Tim]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By PauLuver69:
Exactly! Honestly, putting John's name on baby clothes and jewelry, selling things like his papers and private conversations, never heard songs...You'd think she'd like to keep a bit of what John left behind and have a bit of privacy?


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
From what I have always understood, the baby clothes,etc. money goes to charities.
Yoko has NEVER sold any of John's papers,the ones that have been out there were some of those stolen from her by Fred Seaman.
With the unissued songs,demos,etc. if they're gonna find their way out illegally,why not make a legal issue?



------------------
Tim
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/churchill.gif
Tim Brent's Yellow Submarine Page (http://www.geocities.com/timbrent.geo)
The Beatles' Record Advertisements (http://members.tripod.co.uk/seltaeb)
The Beatles' Record Covers Yahoo! Club (http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/beatlesrecordcovers)
The Beatles Video Theatre (http://timbrent.tripod.com)

[PauLuver69]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By leonardobeat:
Agree. But who else is doing something for John?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The fans. http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif



------------------
STOP THE WAR AGAINST IRAQ! Make LOVE, NOT War!

Check out my site, Studio #5!

http://www.geocities.com/pauluver69/clicktoenter.html

[leonardobeat]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By PauLuver69:
The fans. http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/beer1.gif

------------------
Here comes the sun...and I say it's alright.

[angelgodiva]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By PauLuver69:


Angelgodiva, I'm curious to know how you knew John? Thats very cool http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif Maybe you will tell us more stories?

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, this topic hasn't been up for a while and I didn't see your question. I met him in a bar in Los Angeles and he came home with me. After that he returned a bunch of times; that is how we became friends.



------------------
And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

[ImaginePeace78]

I admire Yoko for what she's put up with all these years, since she married John. I don't agree with everything she's done or really care for her music, but I believe she's a strong person. I know that John loved Yoko very much, but from some of the stories out there, I just *hope* that Yoko loved John the same he did her....
-Kristi

------------------
"In the best of times, our days are numbered anyway. And so it would be a crime against nature for any generation to take the world crisis so solemnly that we would put off doing those things for which we were intended for in the first place, the opportunity to do good work, to fall in love, to enjoy friends, to hit a ball and to bounce a baby." --Alistair Cooke


Kristi's Writing Desk (http://www.geocities.com/lennon4080forever/index.html)

[jule]

I have found this to be a very good discussion, folks.

Angel, thanks for your perspective, as someone who knew John. I agree with everything you have said.

Regarding teens, I work at an art college in Student Life, and have been doing so for the last 7 years. Like Angel, I have learned and continue to learn AT LEAST as much from the 18 and 19 year olds as from anyone else of any other age. Of course I feel like I'm any number of ages myself on any given day (from 12-42)!!

Regarding the Yoko discussion, I just want to add, that I have heard the audio tape of Cynthia talking about the time when she knew John ought to be with Yoko, and it was not said with bitterness or anger or jealousy. It was said with the emotional maturity of someone who loved another enough to let them go, because you knew that person you loved would grow more with the new person in their life. Three cheers to Cynthia.

And we cannot forget what John has said about Yoko: that she was his match intellectually, creatively, emotionally, spiritually, and opened him to new forms of art and politics. What a gift Yoko gave John in sharing her life and talents with him. And, of course, what gifts he gave in return, to her, and to us, in the latter Beatles songs, and in so many other songs written up until the end, inspired by her.

Three cheers to love.

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/peace.gif

jule



------------------
"Imagine all the people sharing all the world." --John and Yoko

[beatlewho01-02]

Have Olivia and Barbara taken some heat after they remarried to George and Ringo? Seems that people liked them more

------------------
"Don't cry
Don't raise your eye
It's only teenage wasteland."
The Who's Baba O'Riley

[Paul_McCartney2002]

I don't think I'd mind Yoko so much if she hadn't given us Revolution #9 images/icons/wink.gif

[beatlewho01-02]

Why do you blast Yoko Ono? If it weren't for her, some of the posthumous stuff Lennon made would never be heard. And do you blast Jackie Onassis for keeping John Kennedy's legacy alive after his death? Yoko's only doing the same thing.

[jtal909]

Originally Posted By beatlewho01-02:
[QB]Why do you blast Yoko Ono? If it weren't for her, some of the posthumous stuff Lennon made would never be heard.
QB]<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">I'm not blasting Yoko but I don't believe this at all. If it were not Yoko, there would have been somebody else.

[ Dec 05, 2002, 07:51 PM: Message Edited By: jtal909 ]

[georgiegurl]

I am only 17, so yeah I am one of the younger ones on this forum but I think Yoko did not help the situation. I think The Beatles were on their way to breaking up anyways but Yoko seemed to speed things up. The only tape that I own from the Anthology is the last one and it's so easy to see the tension in the room. Yoko should have known her place and John should have made it apparent. (Hope I don't offend any John fans, I'm not knocking him) I do have to agree with another post I read. If it had not been Yoko, it would have been someone else.

[georgiegurl]

I am only 17, so yeah I am one of the younger ones on this forum but I think Yoko did not help the situation. I think The Beatles were on their way to breaking up anyways but Yoko seemed to speed things up. The only tape that I own from the Anthology is the last one and it's so easy to see the tension in the room. Yoko should have known her place and John should have made it apparent. (Hope I don't offend any John fans, I'm not knocking him) I do have to agree with another post I read. If it had not been Yoko, it would have been someone else.

[georgiegurl]

Sorry for posting twice. My mistake! images/icons/frown.gif

[IWantToTellYou]

I am only 20 years old. So everything that I know about Yoko Ono are stories that people have told me. You know the stories, she broke up the Beatles, and she is a mean uncaring...Well you can fill in the blank here...

Yoko had no place at the recording sessions. My boyfriend is a musician and would never take me into the studio with him and the band. Not only that, if you are not part of the band, what right do you have to be in the studio? None.

I heard that she was overly critical of the other band members, and that they should see things more her way. I am sure that she "brainwashed" John to believe that everything she said was true. But then again...people DO grow apart, and maybe they (John, Paul, George and Ringo) couldn't really stand to be together anymore. We weren't there with them in the studio...so I guess we will never really know...? I heard that there was a rift between the Beatles after Paul wanted to release his first solo album before Let It Be even came out. Was it Let It Be...Or Abbey Road...? I forget...Anyway, the other guys didn't want him to release it before their album came out, but Paul did it anyway.

I mean, what about the songs "How Do You Sleep" and "Wah-Wah"? Maybe it was Paul that broke up the Beatles? Maybe people didn't want to admit that the Beatles just grew apart and broke up themselves...and they looked to for a scapegoat...And that was Yoko, because she was so different. I am not trying to stick up for Yoko...But there MUST be more to the story than we know. Who knows?

Recently, Paul McCartney asked for the full ownership (and writing credits) to the song "Yesterday". I don't think that she handed it over. In the Beatles career almost all of their songs were written by McCartney-Lennon...Maybe some of this isn't true...What do you all think about the battle for "Yesterday"? Should Paul have all the rights?

[jtal909]

There was a press release printed in "The Longest Cocktail Party" written by Yoko, not John mind you, saying how all John's earnings were going into Apple, and that she, I mean he, wanted his own money to finance their joint ventures (John and Yoko).
I think that tells a lot about who was influencing who to do what.

[beatlebangs1964]

Welcome, I Want to Tell You. That is my favorite George Harrison song, so naturally your name caught my eye. Welcome to Beatle Links and we're glad you are here to join us in some Beatle talk!

Beatle speak -- the language that unites all fans.

[Hari's Chick]

Originally Posted By IWantToTellYou:
What do you all think about the battle for "Yesterday"? Should Paul have all the rights?<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Welcome, IWanttoTellYou!!! graemlins/wave1.gif

I think it would be a shame to start breaking the songs up like that. Then, Paul would be cut out of some of John's, etc etc...It could get quite complicated. I think the Lennon-McCartney tag, and sharing the rights, is a nice statement of friendship. I think that is much more important than an extra few pennies here or there.

[beatlebangs1964]

I'm with Hari's Chick on this one. To draw dividing lines now seems very counterproductive to me.

All together now, all together now... images/icons/smile.gif

[IWantToTellYou]

graemlins/wave2.gif *

Hi to all those people who said "HI" to me and sent me a warm welcome message!!!

Yeah, I guess things would get a little complicated if Yoko handed over all rights to the song over...I heard that "Yesterday" was the most covered song in all of history. It was covered 150+ times...At least that is what I read somewhere...That is a lot of money going to Yoko.

[Paul_McCartney2002]

Originally Posted By Hari's Chick:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Originally Posted By IWantToTellYou:
What do you all think about the battle for "Yesterday"? Should Paul have all the rights?<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Welcome, IWanttoTellYou!!! graemlins/wave1.gif

I think it would be a shame to start breaking the songs up like that. Then, Paul would be cut out of some of John's, etc etc...It could get quite complicated. I think the Lennon-McCartney tag, and sharing the rights, is a nice statement of friendship. I think that is much more important than an extra few pennies here or there.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Do you think it would be ok it they were to but the true writer of the song first, in this case McCarteny/Lennon?

[Fly]

I'm not blasting Yoko but I don't believe this at all. If it were not Yoko, there would have been somebody else.<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">That's like saying, "if it weren't John, Paul, George, and Ringo it could have been someone else." Or do you not think of it the same way? The negativity towards Yoko most people here share is quite blatant. To say something so tersely like that, about a man and a woman who loved each other and meant the world to each other (believe what you will about Yoko, but she DID love John), and had a baby together seems rather cold. That's blowing away Sean's existence, of course, and a lot of other things as well.

That's OK. Its all pro-other Beatles' wives except for John's on here I guess.

[ Dec 09, 2002, 06:27 AM: Message Edited By: Fly ]

[Rellevart]

Originally Posted By Fly:
The negativity towards Yoko most people here share is quite blatant. <font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Do you really think that, Fly? I think there is a great diversity of opinions of Yoko around here - there are a lot of people who like her and respect her very much, some who are neutral and some who dislike her.

I think maybe some of the dislike comes from the fact that she and John didn't exactly have a "conventional" marriage, so it's difficult for some people to understand their relationship.

I don't know. I certainly don't dislike her and I certainly don't think she "broke up the band", that's for sure!!

[jtal909]

Originally Posted By Fly:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">I'm not blasting Yoko but I don't believe this at all. If it were not Yoko, there would have been somebody else.<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">That's like saying, "if it weren't John, Paul, George, and Ringo it could have been someone else." Or do you not think of it the same way? The negativity towards Yoko most people here share is quite blatant. To say something so tersely like that, about a man and a woman who loved each other and meant the world to each other (believe what you will about Yoko, but she DID love John), and had a baby together seems rather cold. That's blowing away Sean's existence, of course, and a lot of other things as well.

That's OK. Its all pro-other Beatles' wives except for John's on here I guess.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">That's not at all like saying if it weren't the Beatles it would be someone else. Not in the least. It's ludicrous to even say something like that.
And do you really think that Yoko is the only one in the world capable of carrying on John's legacy?

[ Dec 09, 2002, 09:56 AM: Message Edited By: jtal909 ]

[jtal909]

Originally Posted By SarahMcCartney:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Originally Posted By jtal909:
Paul could not have a relationship for 2 years in comparison.

<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Whoa, that's a little bit of a low blow. He saw a spark in someone, he took advantage of the opportunity. I'm not the most pro-Heather, but if he wants to get married, that's him. Heather may be using him,, she may not. Either way, he's a big boy that's his decsicion.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">That was a pro Paul statement meaning it took 2 years before he could start another relationship.

[ Dec 09, 2002, 10:05 AM: Message Edited By: jtal909 ]

[Fly]

That's not at all like saying if it weren't the Beatles it would be someone else. Not in the least. It's ludicrous to even say something like that.
And do you really think that Yoko is the only one in the world capable of carrying on John's legacy?<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Perhaps I misunderstood you. I was replying to your first reply to another post, in which you said that John's songs-if they were not inspired by Yoko- would have been inspired by someone else. And so I used a counter-example. You obviously didn't like it, and I agree. But I think its terrible to say something like, "Oh if Yoko hadn't come along someone else would have..." That's being a bit rude to John, in my opinion, and the whole theme of love. Its not just "whoever comes along" who inspires people to make art. Its usually from their feelings, as I believe much of John's was.

I do think a lot of people here say terrible things about Yoko. Read through some of these threads! I guess "John's legacy" will end up being about the music in one case, and then bantering about his strange, unconventional marriage to some Japanese woman who broke up the Beatles. She didn't break the band up in the first place, and its been almost 40 years people. Time to move on. John did. George did. Paul (kind of) has. Ringo...the Beatles broke up because it was their time to break up. That's it.

Of course I never said Yoko was the only one capable of carrying on John's legacy, but why shouldn't she be? You can name all the alternatives, I don't care. All I was saying was that Yoko gets very rough treatment here. Its a double standard throughout, it seems. You can read pretty nasty things said about any of the guys and completely disregard it. But when its Yoko its much more easy for people to believe, right? Yes, I think so.

[ Dec 09, 2002, 01:57 PM: Message Edited By: Fly ]

[Apple Scruff]

I'm with Angel...I never have said anything negative about Yoko myself. I wouldn't. I like Yoko and think a lot of her art and music is great. I also don't know the circumstances involved to make any remarks against her. So, like, when someone brings up her relationship with John's elder son, I don't comment either way because I don't feel I have the right. But that's just me. images/icons/smile.gif

I understand your frustrations, though. And I think a lot of what you said is true.

[ Dec 09, 2002, 03:43 PM: Message Edited By: Apple Scruff ]

[SF4-EVER]

I don't understand all of Yoko's art and music, but I respect her as a strong woman who manages to retain her own individuality despite being John's widow. As long as she and John loved each other, that's all that matters. Same goes for any other Beatle/wife pair, in my opinion.

[jtal909]

Originally Posted By Fly:
[QB] </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">That's not at all like saying if it weren't the Beatles it would be someone else. Not in the least. It's ludicrous to even say something like that.
And do you really think that Yoko is the only one in the world capable of carrying on John's legacy?<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Perhaps I misunderstood you. I was replying to your first reply to another post, in which you said that John's songs-if they were not inspired by Yoko- would have been inspired by someone else. QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">I do believe that John would have written great songs no matter what or who was the muse, but my reply was in response to a statement that ifit weren't for Yoko, we would not be hearing John's posthumous work. Yoko is there and she is in control of his estate and is doing a fine job in preserving the legacy, but my point is that it could have been anybody who was put in that position to preserve the legacy.

I think the resentment toward Yoko stems from the fact that she became a Beatle in a sense, by association with John. the other wives did not have that cross to bear.She greatly influenced John, and he wanted out.
Was she the catalyst? Probably yes.
Would it have happened without her? Probably yes.

[ Dec 09, 2002, 04:38 PM: Message Edited By: jtal909 ]

[Sgt.McCartney]

http://newspaper-taxis.net/woman/code14.jpg

[angelgodiva]

Originally Posted By Fly:
That's OK. Its all pro-other Beatles' wives except for John's on here I guess.[/QB]<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">Not as far as I am concerned, and I know that I am not the only one. I know very well how much John loved Yoko; there were times when I saw him cry because he could not be with her, and all I could do was to try to comfort him. He loved her completely, and I know that had to go both ways, because as for John, to know him was to love him. He did care what people thought of her, though. He cared and when she was bashed by fans or the media he was by turns angry, hurt, and confused.
I think that Yoko was great for John. She helped him grow and develop as an artist and as a human being, and she gave him a child whom he loved beyond all reason. She understood him, and she made him happy--that was the main thing, as far as I am concerned. Anyone who gave him happiness in life is all right by me. Long live Yoko, and may she be happy and have the respect, if not the love, of all those who say they care about John.

[kc]

I have a respect for Yoko, because she is the one that John chose for his artistic partner and his wife. And even though their marriage had its difficulties, as all marriages do, it endured until his passing. They were married for nearly 12 years. That's pretty uncommon, especially in the world of entertainment. Moreover, Yoko was an accomplished artist in her own right, prior to her relationship with John.

Personally, I'm not a great fan of Yoko's music (although I do like "Kiss Kiss Kiss" and "Yes, I'm Your Angel" from Double Fantasy). But John loved her, and so, as a Beatle fan, I respect that.

"If you find somebody to love in this world, you better hang on tooth and nail. The wolf is always at the door." --Don Henley, "New York Minute"

[AmericanBeatle]

I don't think any culture is ready for Yoko.
And, I do believe that she had a strong part in the bitterness of the breakup. It was her, I feel quite strongly, that didn't allow some of the tensions to ebb out over time to the point that John and George never really had a last chance to set things right.
There is also the evidence of John's "Lost Weekend". There is no more apparant manipulation of John by Yoko than at this time. If you really loved someone, would you send them across the country, along with a secretary to sleep with, until they begged to come home. What more evidence do you need to see that Yoko was toying with John, keeping him in line and letting him know who, in fact, ran the joint. That was, and still is, insane. But, does this mean that she broke up the band? No. It means she is an odd machine with wiring that may not be up to spec.
Does it mean she has a place in the overall scope of the breakup? Yes.
The Boys would have broken up regardless, I think we all agree that is a fact. However, would the Allan Klein mess have occurred without Yoko in the background whispering disparagingly in John's ear about the Eastman's and Paul?
Did she see in John a forum for her own causes and a stage for her own "singing bag"? Yes, but is that necessarily wrong in taking advantage of an opportunity (unless, of course, that opportunity is already married with a son. But, you might have to have morals for this to matter)?
Would John have so severed the ties with his old bandmates that he would rarely speak to them before his death some ten years later?
All these questions I have a guess as to the answer, but is it the real answer? We'll never know because three quarters of the people involved are no longer with us (John, George, and maybe even Linda, another lesser scapegoat in the Beatle cookie crumble).
I just know that Yoko's history, before, during and after John do not shed a good light on her. She is not Satan graemlins/devil9.gif , and she is not a god graemlins/god.gif . She is who she is, for better or worse.
Man, my fingers hurt!

[ Dec 16, 2002, 06:07 PM: Message Edited By: AmericanBeatle ]

[Magill]

AB, we may never know the impact Yoko had on the fate of the Beatles. I, personally, don't think she single-handedly did the job..oh, heck no! I do believe she did cause friction in the band. Paul, George & Ringo just weren't comfortable with her at the recording sessions. But, another thought would be if Paul had not hooked up with Linda and wanted to employ her dad, Lee Eastman, as manager so terribly, had he have gone along with his mates and given the nod to Allen Klein? On that note, one could say Linda was also responsible, by association. graemlins/shakehead2.gif
We could analyze this age old question to death, but the point would be moot. What's done is done. The Beatles split up to spread their own creative wings and fly into their own separate recording studios. Lets be happy for Paul & Wings, John and the POB, Ringo and his All Starr Band and George Harrison. Hey, it's all good! images/icons/wink.gif

[AmericanBeatle]

I'll second that. All that music might never have been if they hadn't broken up.
Although, I would have to say, on the Eastman/Linda point, that going with Paul's future in-laws could have, and was, a stickler for the other three, and Allan Klein was a thorn to Paul. . .so why couldn't they find another manager to run The Beatles Empire? Why were just these two ever considered? Weren't there any other people in all of England or the U.S. or the world that could have taken over the reigns where The Beatles left off, and Brian before that.
It seems, and I may be way off base here, that John and Paul, in particular, used this issue to see who would blink first, to see who was the stronger willed of the two, and when no winner was declared, The Beatles were no more.
Whaddya think?

[Tim]

Originally Posted By jtal909:

She greatly influenced John, and he wanted out.
Was she the catalyst? Probably yes.
Would it have happened without her? Probably yes.<font size="2" face="Tahoma, Arial, sans-serif">It seems John wanted out well before he met Yoko...Help! wasn't just a song commisioned for a movie.
By 68/69 with Brian dead,and the cohesion formed during touring gone,they were more and more each into their "own thing" by then,and GH was no longer going to be content with 2 songs an LP.
I don't think Yoko was as much a catalyst for the breakup as is made out. Klein and Eastman deserve more of that blame.
At most,Yoko may have told John, If you want to be a Beatle,be a Beatle. If you don't want to be a Beatle, don't be a Beatle.