Was John "sort of queer" or what?!

[Loka]

I watched "The Hours and Times" yesterday night, so everyone who saw that film might understand why I like to bring this topic up. Sorry if it has already been discussed, but I´m quite interested in your opinion.

Was John queer or wasn´t he? What concerning the Beatles died with Brian in 1967 and why did John not become a designer or a hairdresser as he planned to in his teenage years? (I mean, I´m happy he became what he became, but imagning him as a queer designer doesn´t sound too bad either.)

http://img51.echo.cx/img51/6940/johnbrian0fm.jpg

[Harbidge]

It was Ringo who wanted to own a chain of hairdressing salons if the Beatles were going to fail.

As for John being gay? John couldn't be any more heterosexual if he tried...

[Legs]

It was Ringo who wanted to own a chain of hairdressing salons if the Beatles were going to fail.



He did get to play one in a t.v. series. And there is Barry Womb.

[FPSHOT]

Womb?

[FPSHOT]

As for John being gay? John couldn't be any more heterosexual if he tried...
he does look 'cute' on that picture though ...seen the shoes?
:eyebrows:

[LovinLennon909]

I don't think John was "sort of queer." He was actually "sort of a womanizer."

[Miss O'Dell]

I very much doubt John was gay too.

[Legs]

Womb?

Yeah, they always forget the B.

[AnyRoad69]

yoko said he was difficult

[AnyRoad69]

The Hours and Times wo auf Video oder im TV`?
where on video or in the TV`?

[AnyRoad69]

gay al little bit are all Harbidge nevertheless

[lennon_legend]

what??? are u saying were all a little bit gay? dont think so mate,you may be but im definetly not,and john wasnt a puff atall

[beatlemad]

gay al little bit are all Harbidge nevertheless

Is there something you would like to tell us Anyroad? winkwink

[Jerry]

Man, I'm not gonna touch this one, literally.

[lennon_legend]

haha anyroads gay,backs to the wall lads

[AnyRoad69]

Is there something you would like to tell us Anyroad? winkwink


Say only you with your friends never at the Dick played.
or mutually same satisfaction tries out.

P.S. i'm Hetrosexuell

[beatlemad]

I'm pretty sure that's an insult!

[AnyRoad69]

John is anyhow stick Hetro

[HMVNipper]

May I first say that I am personally offended by all the nasty remarks about "gays, poofs, and queers?" Please, take the gay bashing someplace else. :rolleyes: I find the comments to be extremely intolerant, and as someone who counts many gay and lesbian people among her friends, I am disturbed by such offensive jokes and discussion.

As for the topic at hand... "The Hours and Times" is a FICTIONAL story. It is a "what if," speculating on what MIGHT have happened on that trip Brian and John took to Barcelona in 1963. In fact, I would go so far as to call it a fanfic -- and I oughta know, I read a LOT of fanfic for my website. And since no one was there when they went away together except for THEM, who knows what happened?

As far as John being gay or bi? I think he was extremely heterosexual. He clearly liked women and liked them a lot. I do also think, however, that he was also one of those people who would try anything once -- he was an artsy-fartsy type, after all, Brian was undeniably attracted to him, and there is a possibility that something DID happen on that trip to Spain. I believe it was Pete Shotton who said that John told him that Brian did make a move (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's in Pete's book) and that John let Brian...um...perform certain acts but that there was no actual "consummation." I do know that there is documentation that John was fascinated with Brian's homosexuality, and that on that trip they'd go to cafes and such together and John would point out beautiful young men and ask Brian to tell him what was or was not attractive to him about each one...

Frankly, I don't think it matters WHAT John's sexual orientation was. Does it make you like or respect John any less if you think he may have had gay sex once or twice or more? Does it change your opinion of him to a negative one from the one you had before you saw the movie? The only two people who knew for sure what happened behind those closed doors, if anything did, were Brian and John, two good and decent men who are both dead. Knowing whether they had sex with each other wouldn't change MY opinion about either of them...it shouldn't change anyone's unless that person is extremely intolerant.

[lennon_legend]

urh sick,na nothing happened between epstien and john,end of story,its just all in anyroads fantasies

[HMVNipper]

urh sick,na nothing happened between epstien and john,end of story,its just all in anyroads fantasies

The question is, how do you KNOW that? Only Brian and John knew. Does it disturb you so much to think they might have? I don't think it makes me "sick" to consider reality...and actually I think the fact that it seems to bother you so muich speaks volumes about your personal homophobia rather than anything sick about me.

[lennon_legend]

ok calm down man

[Sally]

May I first say that I am personally offended by all the nasty remarks about "gays, poofs, and queers?" Please, take the gay bashing someplace else. :rolleyes: I find the comments to be extremely intolerant, and as someone who counts many gay and lesbian people among her friends, I am disturbed by such offensive jokes and discussion.

As for the topic at hand... "The Hours and Times" is a FICTIONAL story. It is a "what if," speculating on what MIGHT have happened on that trip Brian and John took to Barcelona in 1963. In fact, I would go so far as to call it a fanfic -- and I oughta know, I read a LOT of fanfic for my website. And since no one was there when they went away together except for THEM, who knows what happened?

As far as John being gay or bi? I think he was extremely heterosexual. He clearly liked women and liked them a lot. I do also think, however, that he was also one of those people who would try anything once -- he was an artsy-fartsy type, after all, Brian was undeniably attracted to him, and there is a possibility that something DID happen on that trip to Spain. I believe it was Pete Shotton who said that John told him that Brian did make a move (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's in Pete's book) and that John let Brian...um...perform certain acts but that there was no actual "consummation." I do know that there is documentation that John was fascinated with Brian's homosexuality, and that on that trip they'd go to cafes and such together and John would point out beautiful young men and ask Brian to tell him what was or was not attractive to him about each one...

Frankly, I don't think it matters WHAT John's sexual orientation was. Does it make you like or respect John any less if you think he may have had gay sex once or twice or more? Does it change your opinion of him to a negative one from the one you had before you saw the movie? The only two people who knew for sure what happened behind those closed doors, if anything did, were Brian and John, two good and decent men who are both dead. Knowing whether they had sex with each other wouldn't change MY opinion about either of them...it shouldn't change anyone's unless that person is extremely intolerant.

I'm with you on this one, well said :teeth1:

[Sally]

haha anyroads gay,backs to the wall lads


You're a cheeky beggar, isn't there an "only gay in your village" in Wales then?

Don't be homophobic, I would put my money that you wouldn't mind watching two gay women making love! :wink2:

[adayinthelife]

May I first say that I am personally offended by all the nasty remarks about "gays, poofs, and queers?" Please, take the gay bashing someplace else. :rolleyes: I find the comments to be extremely intolerant, and as someone who counts many gay and lesbian people among her friends, I am disturbed by such offensive jokes and discussion.

As for the topic at hand... "The Hours and Times" is a FICTIONAL story. It is a "what if," speculating on what MIGHT have happened on that trip Brian and John took to Barcelona in 1963. In fact, I would go so far as to call it a fanfic -- and I oughta know, I read a LOT of fanfic for my website. And since no one was there when they went away together except for THEM, who knows what happened?

As far as John being gay or bi? I think he was extremely heterosexual. He clearly liked women and liked them a lot. I do also think, however, that he was also one of those people who would try anything once -- he was an artsy-fartsy type, after all, Brian was undeniably attracted to him, and there is a possibility that something DID happen on that trip to Spain. I believe it was Pete Shotton who said that John told him that Brian did make a move (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's in Pete's book) and that John let Brian...um...perform certain acts but that there was no actual "consummation." I do know that there is documentation that John was fascinated with Brian's homosexuality, and that on that trip they'd go to cafes and such together and John would point out beautiful young men and ask Brian to tell him what was or was not attractive to him about each one...

Frankly, I don't think it matters WHAT John's sexual orientation was. Does it make you like or respect John any less if you think he may have had gay sex once or twice or more? Does it change your opinion of him to a negative one from the one you had before you saw the movie? The only two people who knew for sure what happened behind those closed doors, if anything did, were Brian and John, two good and decent men who are both dead. Knowing whether they had sex with each other wouldn't change MY opinion about either of them...it shouldn't change anyone's unless that person is extremely intolerant.


HERE HERE! I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU!

[Harbidge]

Homophobia is just sick. It's purile, immature and childish and personally I find it offensive. Grow up and live in the 21st century.

Whatever someones sexual orientation is, it doesn't make them any less of a human being.

[lonely_rubber_peppers]

out Homophobia is just sick. It's purile, immature and childish and personally I find it offensive. Grow up and live in the 21st century.

Whatever someones sexual orientation is, it doesn't make them any less of a human being.

I totally agree with you! Three cheers for Harb!!:beer1:

[HMVNipper]

Homophobia is just sick. It's purile, immature and childish and personally I find it offensive. Grow up and live in the 21st century.

Whatever someones sexual orientation is, it doesn't make them any less of a human being.

Way to go, Harb!! :thumbu2:

[JDanRyan]

So John might have lost some of his machismo because he might have slept with a man, eh?

I suppose there is something to worry about in that. After all, when it came out that Alexander the Great had a few of his male lovers march with him all the way to India he was considered fey, wasn't he?

And when Julius Caesar was accused of being "every woman's man and every man's woman," boy, did THAT make him look funny in people's eyes.

And when it comes to Lawrence of Arabia, I'm sure there are so many people offended by his choice of lovers that no one wants to recall anything he ever did...


Reality check, folks! Whether a man sleeps with other men or not does not make him less of a man. These three certainly DID sleep with other men and are not considered less virile for it, so why would John be any less a man had he actually had a moment of passion with Brian? As noted, we have no idea if he did, but had it actually occurred, does that make John less admirable? Judge people by their accomplishments, and know the real person that way!

(Going to roll over and go back into hibernation now, grumblegrumble...)

[motherTheresa]

Say only you with your friends never at the Dick played.



well this is a topic that deserves it's own thread!

:beer1:

:clap1: :clap1: :clap1:

[Loony_leo]

As HMV said the only people who would know are John and Brian. And does it really matter is he was gay/bi/straight? Does it make him any less of an amazing person? Does it make his songs anything less than what they are, and that is amazing? Does that change your opinion of him in any way? If you said yes to any of these questions... than you are a sad sad homophobic person.

[Hari's Chick]

Homophobia is just sick. It's purile, immature and childish and personally I find it offensive. Grow up and live in the 21st century.

Whatever someones sexual orientation is, it doesn't make them any less of a human being.

Yay, Harb!!!!! Yay, Nipper!!!!!!

[beatlelover45223]

:clap1: well said Harb & Nipper.

[Loka]

:scream2: I really didn´t want to offend anybody, the thing is that my brother´s gay (he´s a big Beatlesfan either) and he asked me about it. I bought the Video and watched it and just wondered where all these thoughts might have come from. Of course it´s fictional.
It has nothing to do with "loving him less" or even more (well, I think my brother does, hmm, quite funny thing to hear how cute he thinks John was) :laugh5: but it actually DOES make a difference, doesn´t it? I mean, all the looking for his inner self suddenly makes sense when you feel you deny something happening within as he did in the movie.
The things I´ve heard about what really happened were even more distinct. And it makes him look more sensitive (rather than calling him a "womanizer", which surely wasn´t his true inner self.)
Of course, this hasn´t to do the slightest with the Beatles´music and with Brians qualities as a manager, and I didn´t want it to sound as if it would make a difference into the negative for me. :nono4:
SORRY. :cry3:
All my brother´s fault. :scream2:
And PS. I read that he DID indeed want to become a designer or hairdresser, but let the idea down because of the "gay air" around these professions.

I´d like to state that I LOVE Brian and think he meant more to John than we might know. That OK?
And I´m certainly not homophobic and it does not suite me at all, for everybody who knows me and my "soul mate" brother. Love you, Rama. :smoking2:

[HMVNipper]

Actually, Loka, I don't think anyone was calling YOU homophobic. At least for me, it was some of the other comments that came after yours that got my hackles up, which is why I said something about offensive comments and whether it would make a difference to anybody regarding their perception of John or Brian.

I don't think anyone knew John's "true inner self" other than John. No matter how much we think we know him, we didn't, not really. The John Lennon we know is practically mythic, let's face it. That said, I do believe he was someone who would experiment with nearly anything, but I don't think he was really gay or even bisexual. I think he was predominantly straight, but inclined to try nearly anything at least once, including homosexuality. I don't know if it was so much denying his "inner self" as it was realizing that although it was interesting, it wasn't something he wanted to do all the time. Does that make any sense?

I have never heard that JOHN was the one who wanted to be a designer or hairdresser. Not that there would be anything wrong with that in the least, mind you. However, for the sake of all of us here and for the world, I'm personally really glad he became a musician!

BTW, I see absolutely nothing wrong with your brother finding John attractive -- geez, I do, why shouldn't anyone else, male OR female? :eyebrows:

[FPSHOT]

What's this about being a hairdresser... I dress my hair every day..and I also design things every day :teeth1: and I play guitar...

[Harbidge]

Loka - I think you raised a good point. My little moan was targeted to 'lennon_legend's infantile response to the discussion with things like 'urg' and 'thats sick' before accusing AnyRoad of being gay as if it's an insult to call him such a thing.

Do you think it's making you look clever LL? Because believe me, it's making you look entirely the opposite.

[matt5]

Who cares?

It is nobody's business anyways.

[HMVNipper]

It is nobody's business, but it is something that fans will always speculate about. But as I said, no one knew but the two men involved, and both of them are dead.

[lennonluvr9]

No, I definitely dont think John was gay

[erinluv182]

Argh.... I just had a bad feeling about this topic as soon as I saw the little red face icon attached to it that this was what it was going to be about.

I tend to run along the lines of John being about the straightest guy you could find. Nipper, you pointed out that John was artsy fartsy, which is true, but he wasn't really artsy fartsy until Yoko came into the picture about 68, after Brian had died, so I still tend towards the argument of nothing ever happening with them.

And I've been reading way too many Beatles books lately to remember where this came from, but I recently read somewhere where John was talking about all this and he was quoted as saying that the notion of sleeping with another man basically made him feel sick. Not that he wanted to offend anyone (he was almost apologetic about saying it; acting embarrassed to say it), but for him personally, the idea of him doing that just made him feel ill.

As for the whole quote from Pete Shotton's book, I have to say that I am skeptical of Brian ever even hitting on John, or of John returning Brian's advances in any way. I've read somewhere else where one of the other Beatles (or maybe Alistair Taylor?) said that it would have been completely out of character for Brian to hit on any of the boys. Brian was very very professional when it came to dealing with the Beatles, and all of his actions with them were made in a way that was completely classy. Even if Brian had had a female client and been straight, his character was such that he would never have hit on them. I tend to believe that this is true. Of the little I know of Brian, it would seem entirely tacky of him to lure one of his Beatles away, while his wife had just given birth to their first child, to seduce him. Brian was one of the most elegant and classy people, and I think to suggest that he would ever do something like this flies in the face of what he was all about.

[HMVNipper]

Nipper, you pointed out that John was artsy fartsy, which is true, but he wasn't really artsy fartsy until Yoko came into the picture about 68, after Brian had died, so I still tend towards the argument of nothing ever happening with them.

Ummm...didn't John go to art college? Where he drew and wrote and did any manner of artsy-fartsy things? And hung out with Stuart? And then with Klaus and Astrid and their crew of "Exis" in Hamburg? All artsy-fartsy types? To say that John wasn't artsy-fartsy until Yoko came into the picture is incorrect, IMO.

And I've been reading way too many Beatles books lately to remember where this came from, but I recently read somewhere where John was talking about all this and he was quoted as saying that the notion of sleeping with another man basically made him feel sick. Not that he wanted to offend anyone (he was almost apologetic about saying it; acting embarrassed to say it), but for him personally, the idea of him doing that just made him feel ill.

I have over 250 Beatles books and have read them all, and I have never seen this particular quote. Can you find out where you read this? Because I've read the other story about Brian in more than one place, I'm sure. And not just in raggy, tabloidy books. I don't own many of those at all, I don't care for them.

As for the whole quote from Pete Shotton's book, I have to say that I am skeptical of Brian ever even hitting on John, or of John returning Brian's advances in any way. I've read somewhere else where one of the other Beatles (or maybe Alistair Taylor?) said that it would have been completely out of character for Brian to hit on any of the boys. Brian was very very professional when it came to dealing with the Beatles, and all of his actions with them were made in a way that was completely classy. Even if Brian had had a female client and been straight, his character was such that he would never have hit on them. I tend to believe that this is true. Of the little I know of Brian, it would seem entirely tacky of him to lure one of his Beatles away, while his wife had just given birth to their first child, to seduce him. Brian was one of the most elegant and classy people, and I think to suggest that he would ever do something like this flies in the face of what he was all about.

I don't think Brian "lured John away to Spain" specifically to "seduce" him. I think he asked him to go for a variety of reasons, among them giving John a chance to get away from Beatlemania. But I have read a similar story in other books than Pete Shotton's, and I tend to think that something may have happened. Unbidden, unplanned, to be sure, but I do think that John allowed Brian to touch him, and perhaps to do more...short of actual intercourse. I am not entirely sure that Brian was the only man John may have had a sexual interlude with, either....but that's a subject for a different day.

By the way, it is also well known and documented that "elegant and classy Brian" was really into what is known as "rough trade" homosexual sex...e.g., he liked rough, nasty, tough guys who could dominate him and got off on that. And it frequently got him into trouble...he lived a definite double life in a time when homosexuality was illegal in Britain.

In the end, John was predominantly heterosexual. But I do not agree with your assessment, Erin, sorry. I think it is naive to think that Brian never acted upon his obvious and clear attraction to John -- behind closed doors when no one else was around, so no one could ever be sure. And again, the only two people who would ever know are both dead, so I guess no one ever will.

[Dr. Dreamer]

My, my there does seem to be a degree of homophobia here.
Count me in the "What the hell does it matter category" on this one!
John was a genius of the musical type and THAT my friends is the end of the Story! THAT is what shines on!
And if you are so shallow as to change your opinion of John at the mere suggestion of the notion that he was the least bit curious about homosexuals and satisfied a curiosity then that's YOUR problem mates and you'll have to square with that in your own life... well :laugh1: who knew?? Didn't figure I'd get riled about this- LOL

[FPSHOT]

This is really a sensational discussion :laugh6:

[erinluv182]

Ummm...didn't John go to art college? Where he drew and wrote and did any manner of artsy-fartsy things? And hung out with Stuart? And then with Klaus and Astrid and their crew of "Exis" in Hamburg? All artsy-fartsy types? To say that John wasn't artsy-fartsy until Yoko came into the picture is incorrect, IMO.

Yes, John was an art student, and yes he hung out with Exis in Hamburg. But I've just read waaaaaay too much about John from those times until Yoko entered the picture where John's attitude towards homosexuality was a very taboo thing to him. Being around the things he was around doesn't immediately make him artsy fartsy.



I have over 250 Beatles books and have read them all, and I have never seen this particular quote. Can you find out where you read this? Because I've read the other story about Brian in more than one place, I'm sure. And not just in raggy, tabloidy books. I don't own many of those at all, I don't care for them.

OK.... I remembered where I heard this..... Alistair Taylor's book, "With the Beatles". Al is talking about a conversation that he and John had about the whole trip to Spain, and he is quoting John here. "If he'd asked me, I probably would have done anything he wanted. I was so much in awe of Brian then I'd have tried a night of vice-versa. But he never wanted me like that. Sure, I took the mickey out a bit and pretended to lead him on. But we both knew we were joking. He wanted a pal he could have a laugh with and someone he could teach about life. I thought his bum boys were creeps and Brian knew that. Even completely out of my head, I couldn't shag a bloke. Even a nice guy like Brian. To be honest, the thought of it turns me over."

Please notice that John later in the statement emphatically says that he would not be able to sleep with a guy. So I boil his statement at the beginning down to John's deep love and affection for Brian, in the same way that he probably had a deep love and affection for some of his other closest friends.


I don't think Brian "lured John away to Spain" specifically to "seduce" him. I think he asked him to go for a variety of reasons, among them giving John a chance to get away from Beatlemania. But I have read a similar story in other books than Pete Shotton's, and I tend to think that something may have happened. Unbidden, unplanned, to be sure, but I do think that John allowed Brian to touch him, and perhaps to do more...short of actual intercourse. I am not entirely sure that Brian was the only man John may have had a sexual interlude with, either....but that's a subject for a different day.

By the way, it is also well known and documented that "elegant and classy Brian" was really into what is known as "rough trade" homosexual sex...e.g., he liked rough, nasty, tough guys who could dominate him and got off on that. And it frequently got him into trouble...he lived a definite double life in a time when homosexuality was illegal in Britain.

In the end, John was predominantly heterosexual. But I do not agree with your assessment, Erin, sorry. I think it is naive to think that Brian never acted upon his obvious and clear attraction to John -- behind closed doors when no one else was around, so no one could ever be sure. And again, the only two people who would ever know are both dead, so I guess no one ever will.

I know that Brian had a taste for rough guys, but to me this doesn't immediately indicate in my mind that since Brian was into rough guys he must have slept with John.

I suppose you are right in saying that the only two people that will ever know for sure are gone, sadly. But I also think that there were enough people around who were incredibly close to these two men; people like Alistair, Paul McCartney and George Martin who I have heard repeatedly say that they don't think anything ever happened between Brian and John.

We may simply have to agree to disagree. Just wanted to comment back to your inquiries.

[Dr. Dreamer]

"they don't think anything ever happened between Brian and John."

The operative word there is "think"... Doesn't prove or disprove anything does it?? :laugh4:

Yes it is a sensational discussion on one level but on another it's pointless too. It's all in the mind ya know...

[LittleDarlin909]

Is it really that much of a reach to think John could've had relationships (in some way, shape, or form) with men? God knows he was into experimentation, whether it be musically, sexually (can we say *Polythene Pam*?), or with drugs. As Dr. Dreamer said, "Who the hell cares?"

[LittleDarlin909]

And I've been reading way too many Beatles books lately to remember where this came from, but I recently read somewhere where John was talking about all this and he was quoted as saying that the notion of sleeping with another man basically made him feel sick.

As for the whole quote from Pete Shotton's book, I have to say that I am skeptical of Brian ever even hitting on John, or of John returning Brian's advances in any way.

In Anthology, John says, "Brian was in love with me. . . I watched Brian picking up boys, and I liked playing it a big faggy--it's enjoyable. . . It was my first experience with a homosexual that I was conscious WAS homosexual. . . I was almost a love-affair, but not quite. It was not consummated, but it was a pretty intense relationship."

I'd take John's words over Alistair Taylor's.

[One_Sweet_Dream]

I don't care whether John was "queer" with Brian. But personally, I've always had a piece hidden inside of me that wouldn't have minded if John and Paul ran away together. haha i'm just twisted like that.

[HMVNipper]

I'd take John's words over Alistair Taylor's.

So would I. And I knew Alistair Taylor personally well enough to have had many conversations with him. He was a lovely man. And I'd STILL believe John before him.

Oh, and Erin? You seem to be equating the phrase "artsy fartsy" with "effeminate." Not what I meant at all, it seems to me maybe you are possibly misunderstanding my intent and I wanted to clarify that.

Hasn't anyone ever heard about guys who were intrigued by homosexuality but didn't want to admit it, and therefore played up their macho hetrosexuality to cover it up? I would be willing to bet that John was one of those. In fact, I'd lay money on it.

BTW, I don't know if anyone else is as bothered as I am by all the straight people using the word "queer" in this thread, but from what I understand from my gay friends, when straight people use it it's rather like caucasians using the "N" word. It has its own uses and meanings within the community it describes, but when used by an outsider it is extremely vulgar and derogatory. Just thought I would point that out, it's been bothering me...

[HMVNipper]

Is it really that much of a reach to think John could've had relationships (in some way, shape, or form) with men? God knows he was into experimentation, whether it be musically, sexually (can we say *Polythene Pam*?), or with drugs. As Dr. Dreamer said, "Who the hell cares?"

Right on, Claire, I agree! I don't think it's a reach to think that at all, frankly. It wouldn't shock me one whit to find out that he did...not habitually, not all the time, but once in a while...........

[beatlelover45223]

I agree with the Q word, do they still use if freely in Europe though? Just wondering?

[erinluv182]

Well, I don't have much more to say about this thread, I suppose. I know I have my mind pretty much set in terms of what I think happened. I think it would have been out a character and non-classy for Brian to have done anything with John, and I think John may have flirted with Brian to tease him, but nothing more. And I'm pretty sure that everyone on here probably already has their mind set about what they think happened, so that's that for me.

[LovinLennon909]

[QUOTE=One_Sweet_Dream] But personally, I've always had a piece hidden inside of me that wouldn't have minded if John and Paul ran away together. [\QUOTE]

:laugh5: That's funny, O_S_D! There's plenty of fan fiction about that on the net, if you're so inclined.

From what I've read, which is considerable (I don't own 250 books- only about 100- but I've read that many) when John and Brian went off alone together, Brian "tossed him off," after spending an enjoyable evening shopping for the local male beauty at a cafe.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest if John slept with Brian, that guy from May Pang's book or any other man. Or woman. Sex in general IS interesting. I mean, the reason John went to Yoko's art show in 1966 is because he'd heard something about an orgy in a black bag. It was the Sixties, and John would be my hero regardless of his sexuality (which I believe was more straight than anything.)

[Loka]

I agree with the Q word, do they still use if freely in Europe though? Just wondering?
In Germany you just say either "homosexuell" (homosexual) or "schwul" (at this very point I´m not sure, is it gay or queer or what?)
I know in France they say "PD" which means "pédérastique", as if all gays just have anal sex and that´s the main thing. Some people here seem to take it that way. I think it´s much about the - let´s call it lifestyle - that "being gay" means in the end. I realized this when my brother had his coming out. I went "Eeeeeewww, he has his arse f**ked!" But then I got to know his boyfriend and went to the clubs with them and in the end they were so much more normal than I because their relationship wasn´t about sex at all. And I was the one suggesting this all the time. I was the pervert! :bigeyes3:
I don´t think John had any of what went through my mind during his Spain trip, although I´ve heard Brian gave him a
B-job. Well, let´s face it, we weren´t there, Yoko wasn´t there and John and Brian might smile right now wherever they are, looking down at us running at the spot. :cross2:
I learned in my life that you should lean back and watch rather than lean forward and judge much more often in your life. That´s what I tried to, starting this thread. Didn´t suceed in the end... :afraid2:
And by the way, AnyRoad isn´t gay. He meant to express that - if we´re all honest to ourselves - almost everyone has his or her experimental phase. So let the f**k have John his .
By the way: Does this kind of talk sound offending in English? Because someone asked if we in Europe talk like this. Is it vulgar?

[ABCKO]

... to me, the main point would be... so what ?

What would it change to ANYTHING, if John was gay, or not ?

... why would it ever even matter, to any of us, either way ?

[HMVNipper]

... to me, the main point would be... so what ?

What would it change to ANYTHING, if John was gay, or not ?

... why would it ever even matter, to any of us, either way ?

I totally agree with you, I've been trying to make that point all along.

[lennon_legend]

oh for gods sake,its a joke man,must most people take things the wrong way round here and get all technical about things,proper dull

[HMVNipper]

oh for gods sake,its a joke man,must most people take things the wrong way round here and get all technical about things,proper dull

First of all, *I* am not a "man," so please do not refer to me that way. And frankly, puerile and sophomoric jokes that are offensive to any group because of race, creed or sexual orientation are not "just jokes." They are hurtful and, in my opinion, revolting. I am sure many people here would agree with me.

Nothing you said added anything constructive to the discussion -- the rest of us managed to talk about this like adults, even if we didn't agree...and you managed to reduce the discussion to the level of a bathroom joke. That's not taking things the wrong way or getting technical, it's the truth. If you really felt the comments you wanted to make had to be as offensive as they were, you should have thought again before posting them.

I think that most of us would rather not keep discussing these offensive jokes and comments any more, you're the one who brought it back up again....

[erinluv182]

Alright, I said I was going to keep quiet on this thread, but that didn't last very long now, did it? ;)

I'm just starting to read "Lennon" by Ray Coleman, and came across a couple of interesting quotes from two people who arguably were closer to John than anyone else ever has been. These quotes were specifically in response to Albert Goodman's book when it came out:

"With the exception of his close relatives, I knew John longer than anyone. I would have thought that once in all that time, during a drunken or unguarded moment, there would have been a suggestion of the homosexuality referred to by Goldman. There was never even the slightest hint of this kind. In fact, quite the opposite- John was very attracted to women." -Paul McCartney

"If there had been any situation like the book says, John would have BRAGGED about it." -Yoko Ono

Ok, so if even Yoko is saying it didn't happen, this makes me lean even more on the side of this whole notion being untrue. Just wanted to toss those quotes in here.

[HMVNipper]

Erin, I have owned the Ray Coleman book since it was first published. It is my favorite, and I believe the best, bio on John I have ever read. But...it also has its intense biases.

No, I'm not defending Goldman or Giuliano or their ilk at all, but neither do I think John was the saint Coleman occasionally paints him as in his book. And frankly, I think there are plenty of things that John did not tell Paul, even close as they were. I think there are plenty of things he didn't necessarily tell Yoko, too!

I think you may be trying to prove a theory no one is really able to prove or disprove except for the people directly involved. And as has been said repeatedly on this thread, does it really matter, and who the heck cares? If it did occur, it was over 40 years ago, and it didn't stop the course of the universe!

With all due respect, in your intense zeal to attempt to "prove" that John could not possibly have ever maybe slept with another man, you are actually coming across as homophobic, as if the mere idea disgusts and upsets you, and so you have to find a way to deal with a notion you don't want to entertain. I do not believe this is necessarily your intent, but that sure is how it seems...what, exactly, is so shocking about the idea that he might have experimented sexually? Would it make him any different from the guy you thought he was before if you found out that he did have sex with another man?

Everyone who has contributed to this thread can debate this point until we are all blue in the face (and typing fingers). But in the end, the only people who knew for sure were Brian and John, and as they are both long dead, neither one of 'em is talking. You can't prove your point any more than I can prove mine...and at least in my opinion, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans when all is said and done. I love John, I would if he did have sex with Brian, I would if he didn't, and I always will. When I responded to this thread in the first place, it was to address Loka's query. I never thought it would become this kind of a debate.

[ABCKO]

Siiiiiigh...

Would John have cared, or even wanted to know, if Elvis or Chuck Berry were gay or not... ?

Odds are, the answer is no...

[FPSHOT]

Loka, I am sorry your original question is being abused to go in to a dialogue which is leading nowhere

[Loka]

Loka, I am sorry your original question is being abused to go in to a dialogue which is leading nowhere

OK. :cry3: I see. Let´s make an end to it, folks. The answer is - as this strange stewardess in the film states it - he MIGHT or MIGHT NOT have let Brian (do whatever he was up to).
I am sad to see that no one bothered to answer the other thoughts, what Brians death meant to the Beatles and so on. He was more than just a queer. I personally think that the end of the Beatles might have been rang in with his death, and not by Yoko or Paul-is-Dead-Substitute William Campbell. :wink2: What do you think?
Well, it could lead too far to discuss a thing as big as THE END OF THE BEATLES.

[HMVNipper]

I could not agree with you more, Rob, going in circles with this thing is ridiculous.

As for your theory about the beginning of the end of the Beatles, Loka, yes, I agree. Brian's death was the first big thing in the demise of the band. For better or worse, he was their guiding force in many ways, and his death left them emotionally devastated and almost totally in the dark about the way things had been running. I also think that as an outside party (e.g., someone involved with the band who wasn't IN the band), he was able to quell a lot of the infighting that later happened after his death.

But anyway, yes, I agree -- it wasn't Yoko or Linda or any outside force that broke up the band. It was internal tensions -- and the death of their manager and confidante certainly did not help things, IMO.

[erinluv182]

Erin, I have owned the Ray Coleman book since it was first published. It is my favorite, and I believe the best, bio on John I have ever read. But...it also has its intense biases.

No, I'm not defending Goldman or Giuliano or their ilk at all, but neither do I think John was the saint Coleman occasionally paints him as in his book. And frankly, I think there are plenty of things that John did not tell Paul, even close as they were. I think there are plenty of things he didn't necessarily tell Yoko, too!

I think you may be trying to prove a theory no one is really able to prove or disprove except for the people directly involved. And as has been said repeatedly on this thread, does it really matter, and who the heck cares? If it did occur, it was over 40 years ago, and it didn't stop the course of the universe!

With all due respect, in your intense zeal to attempt to "prove" that John could not possibly have ever maybe slept with another man, you are actually coming across as homophobic, as if the mere idea disgusts and upsets you, and so you have to find a way to deal with a notion you don't want to entertain. I do not believe this is necessarily your intent, but that sure is how it seems...what, exactly, is so shocking about the idea that he might have experimented sexually? Would it make him any different from the guy you thought he was before if you found out that he did have sex with another man?

Everyone who has contributed to this thread can debate this point until we are all blue in the face (and typing fingers). But in the end, the only people who knew for sure were Brian and John, and as they are both long dead, neither one of 'em is talking. You can't prove your point any more than I can prove mine...and at least in my opinion, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans when all is said and done. I love John, I would if he did have sex with Brian, I would if he didn't, and I always will. When I responded to this thread in the first place, it was to address Loka's query. I never thought it would become this kind of a debate.

I know we're ending the discussion apparently, but I did want to repsond to a couple of things. Yes, Ray's book portrays John in a very good light most of the time, but the truth is that I did not take Ray's words and put them in quotes. I took Paul's and Yoko's words. And later when I read on, Yoko was asked directly and she said she had asked John if anything had ever happened with Brian, to which she got a direct "no" from John.

As for me being homophobic, it is not true. I will be honest and say that I don't agree with homosexuality in terms of how many Americans approve of it, but I'm not homophobic. I have a genuine respect for Brian Epstein, and my opinion of him has never changed, even in knowing his sexual preferences. I've said it before, but here we go again. I think Brian was so incredibly classy (please note that word classy.... if I were a homophobe, then why on earth would I call him that), that he would not have made a move on John because that would have been unprofessional, and he dealt with the boys in a very professional way.

And Susan, I think that many, inclduing myself, would prefer it if you would take your personal attacks and present them to people over private message before doing things like calling someone a homophobe on a public forum.

[HMVNipper]

And Susan, I think that many, inclduing myself, would prefer it if you would take your personal attacks and present them to people over private message before doing things like calling someone a homophobe on a public forum.

I did not call you a homophobe, Erin. I said you were coming across as one with all your justifications. I don't think you meant to, I also said that. I am certain that was not your intent at all. If you interpret that as an attack, then it is your interpretation. I was very careful in how I phrased my post in order not to attack you or appear to be doing so.

Enough said, I won't debate this further....

[FPSHOT]

Okay....

about Brian, Loka I think your thoughts about what 'ended' The Beatles is not as black and white as that perhaps, but you do make a point. There has very much been a change when Brian passed.

He was their manager, and to me it is that managers are at their best when do what they are good at, and in Brian's case, I believe he was the best manager they could have.

Whatever anyone wrote in books and how many articles have been written, if we compare the guys with Brian and without Brian, there is most certainly a lack of 'leadership', which is a manager's job. Brian did not interfere with another 'take' or with how many Harrisongs there would be on an album, he did what a manager is supposed to do and we did not see that much about it with the band we love so much. Well done Brian.

So yes, after Brian passed, there was no leader, at least not one outside the famous four, and that lead to what is still called the break UP, but...I am a George guy, I call it the break THROUGH :smile1: because the world got to learn the real George via All Things Must Pass which is still considered probably the best album one of the four made after 1969 :tongue6:

Without the leader Brian, there was the rival thing between Paul and John, there was Ringo leaving the group, there was George feeling neglected and mind you, in a way I still say "thanks" because due to that George wrote half the ATMP album, if things were all kissy between them there would not have been 269 Maxwell's Hammer sessions and we would not have had Wah Wah and Isn't It A Pity and oh, being in a John forum "How Can You Sleep" :smile2: .

All this "Devil's Radio" about Yoko has always irritated me and with Brian there, she probably would not have been in the studio but creating drawings in an adjoining room, but that is only dreaming.

Actually it is a nice opening to a discussion, which I hope we are still capable of in stead of blah blah about the 1000 words used in this world for a man liking a man for sex and country A saying that the average name used in country B is bad whereas country B will think the same about the words used in country A, or making the Rolling Stone top position in the list of "I have read most books, so.... I know all about John Lennon", because our fantastic community at least to my knowledge has not so often brought in to the conversation the influence to the band called The Beatles related to the passing of Brian Epstein, manager of The Beatles.

How about we talk a bit about that huh...

[HMVNipper]

Thank you Rob, I actually tried to bring the discussion to Loka's second question earlier...and I agree with what you put forth regarding Brian's death and the breakup of the band.

[lennon_legend]

oh god hmv nipper,your a know it all,and "man" is a term of phrase,i wasnt literally calling u a man. IF u had met john,i bet he would have thought you were a right geek, especially if he was my age(18),so just chill out,i called anyone a gay,it was just a joke

[Jerry]

Gee, this turned out nice didn't it. Good discussion guys.

[LovinLennon909]

oh god hmv nipper,your a know it all,and "man" is a term of phrase,i wasnt literally calling u a man. IF u had met john,i bet he would have thought you were a right geek, especially if he was my age(18),so just chill out,i called anyone a gay,it was just a joke

Oh, yeah? You're downright nasty, and I AM your age, and a female, and I bet I'd think you were a right pig.

[erinluv182]

I did not call you a homophobe, Erin. I said you were coming across as one with all your justifications. I don't think you meant to, I also said that. I am certain that was not your intent at all. If you interpret that as an attack, then it is your interpretation. I was very careful in how I phrased my post in order not to attack you or appear to be doing so.

Enough said, I won't debate this further....

Susan, you have a very tricky way of calling me a homophobe without actually doing it..... saying that the thought of John with a man disgusts me, blah blah blah. The truth is, I never said anything like that. I quoted John as saying that the idea disgusted him, but I never said it disgusted me.

And I suppose I do have an intense "zeal" to argue that John never did this stuff, but I could argue that you have zeal to prove that he did. If people think I'm being homophobic, well I guess that's their problem to deal with, but I would ask any of you who have considered anyone on this particular thread to be homphobic: how is that any better than a homophobe judging gay people? The truth is that there are very few of us on B-linkers who know each other on a personal basis, so we really don't know each other all that well, so making judgements is a hard thing to do.

[LittleDarlin909]

oh god hmv nipper,your a know it all,and "man" is a term of phrase,i wasnt literally calling u a man. IF u had met john,i bet he would have thought you were a right geek, especially if he was my age(18),so just chill out,i called anyone a gay,it was just a joke

You're 18? Wow. . . Take your own advice and chill out. And next time, keep any personal attacks in PMs where they belong.

[twovirgins]

"whats the big deal? "says Elton john
http://rhein-zeitung.de/magazin/musik/galerie/elton/john_elton-50.jpghttp://www.maypang.com/Photos/john_elton_glasses.jpg

[erinluv182]

"whats the big deal? "says Elton john
http://www.maypang.com/Photos/john_elton_glasses.jpg

LOL.... those glasses are so funny, that at first I seriously was like "who's that guy with Elton?" Fun pic.

[ShowTunes]

Susan, you have a very tricky way of calling me a homophobe without actually doing it..... saying that the thought of John with a man disgusts me, blah blah blah. The truth is, I never said anything like that. I quoted John as saying that the idea disgusted him, but I never said it disgusted me.

And I suppose I do have an intense "zeal" to argue that John never did this stuff, but I could argue that you have zeal to prove that he did. If people think I'm being homophobic, well I guess that's their problem to deal with, but I would ask any of you who have considered anyone on this particular thread to be homphobic: how is that any better than a homophobe judging gay people? The truth is that there are very few of us on B-linkers who know each other on a personal basis, so we really don't know each other all that well, so making judgements is a hard thing to do.

You know, I've been following this thread for a while now, Erin, and your posts have devolved into mere attacks on HMVNipper (who never attacked you, you know; as far as I can tell, you have some kind of vendetta against her that you're letting color your perception of her posts). I thought you preferred such statements to be aired privately? And if you thought this topic would upset you, why on earth did you bother to chime in? Why are you boring us to death with your discomfort? As for not being a homophobe, "methinks the lady doth protest too much." Fine, you don't approve of homosexual behavior; you needn't have a hissy over the thought that John might have engaged in it. Anyway, it's a bit late in the day to be bending over backwards trying to rationalize it away, isn't it?

For my part, it matters not what John did sexually to anyone. That was his business--everyone's sexuality is their own business, not mine--and I prefer to focus on the reason we pay attention to him in the first place: his songwriting. If his sex life in any way, shape, or form affected the kind of songs he wrote, well, more power to it!

[Celebrian]

Gee, this turned out nice didn't it. Good discussion guys.

No joke. Give peace a chance, confoundit.

[matt5]

No joke. Give peace a chance, confoundit.

good idea. or perhaps we could actullay discuss John's music? Nah, why would anyone want to bother with that?

[One_Sweet_Dream]

good idea. or perhaps we could actullay discuss John's music? Nah, why would anyone want to bother with that?

Oh God, what a stupid idea. As if the music mattered.

What really matters here is that we spend endless time attacking each other when we all love the Beatles, arguing over something that no one can prove, and even if someone could prove it, it wouldn't change anything. I'll still be having dinner tonight whether or not John was gay. I'll still be going to school tomorrow whether or not John was gay. I'll still be listening to the Beatles whether or not John was gay. So let's just stop it now before we all go crazy and end up insulting people we don't even know beyond this online forum, and go back to sharing our love for the Beatles. Because that's what really matters.

[Rellevart]

Ummm...guys and gals, please take your personal issues OFF the forum. The topics are for talking about the subject at hand, not each other and your personal issues with one another. I know I'm not the moderator on this forum so you don't have to listen to me, but it's a strong suggestion. Thanks a lot....

[bearkat77]

OK. :cry3: I see. Let´s make an end to it, folks.

I think this matter has run its course and I don't see this thread getting any better over time. Consider it closed.