What Next!??! Cat Stevens Barred Entering US

[Hari's Chick]

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040921215009990008

WASHINGTON (Sept. 22) - A London-to-Washington flight was diverted to Maine when it was discovered that passenger Yusuf Islam - formerly known as singer Cat Stevens - was on a government watch list and barred from entering the country.

United Airlines Flight 919 was en route to Dulles International Airport when the match was made Tuesday between a passenger and a name on the watch list, said Nico Melendez, a spokesman for the Transportation Security Administration.

The plane was met by federal agents at Maine's Bangor International Airport around 3 p.m., Melendez said.


"He was interviewed and denied admission to the United States on national security grounds."
-Dennis Murphy, Homeland Security Department spokesman

Homeland Security Department spokesman Dennis Murphy identified the passenger as Islam. ''He was interviewed and denied admission to the United States on national security grounds,'' Murphy said.

He said Islam would be put on the first available flight out of the country Wednesday.

Officials had no details about why the peace activist might be considered a risk to the United States. Islam had visited New York in May for a charity event and to promote a DVD of his 1976 MajiKat tour.

One official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Islam, 56, was identified by the Advanced Passenger Information System, which requires airlines to send passenger information to Customs and Border Protection's National Targeting Center. The Transportation Security Administration then was contacted and requested that the plane land at the nearest airport, that official said.

Melendez said Islam was questioned by FBI and Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials.

Another federal official, who is in law enforcement and spoke anonymously because of agency policy, said that after the interview, Customs officials decided to deny Islam entry into the United States.
Flight 919 continued on to Dulles after Islam was removed from the flight.

Islam, who was born Stephen Georgiou, took Cat Stevens as a stage name and had a string of hits in the 1960s and '70s, including ''Wild World'' and ''Morning Has Broken.'' Last year he released two songs, including a re-recording of his '70s hit ''Peace Train,'' to express his opposition to the U.S.-led war in Iraq.

He abandoned his music career in the late 1970s and changed his name after being persuaded by orthodox Muslim teachers that his lifestyle was forbidden by Islamic law. He later became a teacher and an advocate for his religion, founding a Muslim school in London in 1983.


AOL Music: Cat Stevens

Islam founded Islamia Primary school in London in 1983. In 1998, it became the first Muslim school in Britain to receive government support, on the same basis as Christian and other sectarian schools.

A statement posted on a fan-supported Web site where his music is promoted said Islam being on a watch list ''is certainly an error.''

''It's also a very sad state of affairs when a man best known as a peace loving pop star can be grouped into the same category Osama Bin Laden just because of his chosen faith,'' the statement said.

Islam drew some negative attention in the late 1980s when he supported the Ayatollah Khomeini's death sentence against Salman Rushdie, author of ''The Satanic Verses.'' Recently, though, Islam has criticized terrorist acts, including the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and the school seizure in Beslan, Russia, earlier this month that left more than 300 dead, nearly half of them children.

In a statement on his Web site, he wrote, ''Crimes against innocent bystanders taken hostage in any circumstance have no foundation whatsoever in the life of Islam and the model example of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.''

After the Sept. 11 attacks, Islam issued a statement saying: ''No right thinking follower of Islam could possibly condone such an action: The Quran equates the murder of one innocent person with the murder of the whole of humanity.''

AP-NY-09-22-04 0439EDT

[twovirgins]

I totally agree thats crazy! was he born in england or the us?? i love his work for the sound track of the movie "harold and maude"

[beatlebangs1964]

Barring Cat Stevens from the U.S. is just cutting off our noses to spite our faces.

What a damn shame!

[FPSHOT]

After 9-11 many many things like this have happened. People are being sent out of the US for having a certain family name http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I saw a recent interview with "Cat Stevens" where he spoke so very very spiritual in general, so, that in combination with this event is just very sad and reminds me of "while the leaders or nations, are acting like big girls"

[Pepperland Kamer]

Conan O'Brien made a joke about this in his SAT sample analogies skit:

George W.Bush 2001:"We'll hunt down Osama Bin Laden like a dog"
George W Bush 2004:"Hey Look we got Cat Stevens!"

[FPSHOT]

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh2.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh2.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh2.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh2.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh2.gif

[beatlegirl9977]

[ QUOTE ]
Pepperland Kamer Posted:
Conan O'Brien made a joke about this in his SAT sample analogies skit:

George W.Bush 2001:"We'll hunt down Osama Bin Laden like a dog"
George W Bush 2004:"Hey Look we got Cat Stevens!"

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh7.gif

[Hari's Chick]

[ QUOTE ]
Pepperland Kamer Posted:
Conan O'Brien made a joke about this in his SAT sample analogies skit:

George W.Bush 2001:"We'll hunt down Osama Bin Laden like a dog"
George W Bush 2004:"Hey Look we got Cat Stevens!"

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolling3.gif
Exactly!!!

[BrazilianFlag]

[ QUOTE ]
Pepperland Kamer Posted:
Conan O'Brien made a joke about this in his SAT sample analogies skit:

George W.Bush 2001:"We'll hunt down Osama Bin Laden like a dog"
George W Bush 2004:"Hey Look we got Cat Stevens!"

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh6.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh6.gif

Too right!

[scott500]

I dont know whether it is a good thing to be paranoid about people just because of their beliefs. The US after 9/11 has every right to feel this way. But I'd love to know what the FBI said to him. " You're being deported because you speak about peace." I dont know , but it seems to me that anyone who speaks about peace in America either gets harrassed ( John Lennon) or assasinated ( Luther-king). I'd say the majority of Americans just want to live in peace.That is the way most of the western world want to be. Its only a few rogue countrys that dont want to live this way. I dont like that Americans are the worlds "watchdog". Always sticking there nose in where it does'nt belong. I think this makes Americans very paranoid. As well as that they drag other countrys into thier war on terror. Mine included. Sorry to go on but this thread has given me an opportunity to say what I think. And our American beatlelink friends, those of which are the majority on this forum can tell me stick these comments up my ##### , I'm only an outsider looking from afar, but thats what its all about isn't it ? being allowed to say what ever you want.

[FPSHOT]

I read that "Cat Stevens" even was a guest at the White House in May...this year http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

They let his daughter in and he was sent back http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Even Jack Straw is 'not happy' about this treatment.

Even if he would be supporting what they think he is financially supporting - which I find silly to believe - then that means that the FBI lets other people who do that, or maybe even more than just that, just do it, as long as they don't jump on plane to the US??????

It's not like "Cat Stevens" is hiding himself?

[FPSHOT]

Used by permission

http://www.undercover.com.au/news/2004/sept04/20040924_catstevens.html

Cat Stevens Forgives The US

By Paul Cashmere

24 September 2004

Cat Stevens has forgiven the USA for deporting him this week saying "people make mistakes" but also said "half of me wants to smile, and half of me wants to growl. The whole thing is totally ridiculous."

The legendary singer was treated like a terrorist when he was on his way to Washington earlier this week with US authorities diverting his plane to Maine away from the capital.

Stevens, who have been known as Yusef Islam since 1977, was on his way to Nashville with his 21 year old daughter.

US authorities in their wisdom placed the singer was on a US 'no-fly' list claiming he had terrorist links. At his website, a message states "he will be shocked and angered at being associated with anyone who commits acts of violence. He has vehemently and consistently criticized terrorist acts and has always advocated peace through his songs and his extensive humanitarian relief work. He has travelled many times to the US, most recently two months ago on a visit with his record company. Any suggestion therefore that he poses a security risk due to alleged connections with terrorist activities is totally denied as it is simply wrong."

A spokesman for the Department of Homeland Security told the media "Yusuf Islam has been placed on the watch lists because of activities that could potentially be related to terrorism. It's a serious matter."

The US Government claim Stevens has ties with militant group Hamas but Cat Stevens has always denied the allegation.

British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw has made a formal complaint to his American counterpart Colin Powell about the incident.

The US treatment of Cat Stevens has also angered Muslim leaders in Great Britain.

[twovirgins]

[ QUOTE ]
scott500 Posted:
I dont know whether it is a good thing to be paranoid about people just because of their beliefs. The US after 9/11 has every right to feel this way. But I'd love to know what the FBI said to him. " You're being deported because you speak about peace." I dont know , but it seems to me that anyone who speaks about peace in America either gets harrassed ( John Lennon) or assasinated ( Luther-king). I'd say the majority of Americans just want to live in peace.That is the way most of the western world want to be. Its only a few rogue countrys that dont want to live this way. I dont like that Americans are the worlds "watchdog". Always sticking there nose in where it does'nt belong. I think this makes Americans very paranoid. As well as that they drag other countrys into thier war on terror. Mine included. Sorry to go on but this thread has given me an opportunity to say what I think. And our American beatlelink friends, those of which are the majority on this forum can tell me stick these comments up my ##### , I'm only an outsider looking from afar, but thats what its all about isn't it ? being allowed to say what ever you want.

[/ QUOTE ] well said ! as the old Kinks song says "paranioa will desrtoy ya !" Im wondering whats next i suppose they can start builing interment camps like in ww2 to house the japenese and italians I want to appologise for the things the USA is doing to the world I guess im stupid but it makes no sence to me...If you live in fear and want to build walls and go attack people before they attack you then sadly the terrorists have won and I may offend some by saying that some of the worlds biggest terrorists are running my country.USA is the biggest maker of nuclear and chemical weponds of mass distruction heck they,re are even building a LVL 4(highest level of danger) biolab in stevensville montana 20 miles from my town NO ONE wants that lab there but its being built http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif so who knows what could be released in the air if any thing happens i better shut up now or ill just go on and on

[Paolo Meccano]

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[darkhorse]

[ QUOTE ]
scott500 Posted:
I'd say the majority of Americans just want to live in peace.That is the way most of the western world want to be. Its only a few rogue countrys that dont want to live this way. I dont like that Americans are the worlds "watchdog". Always sticking there nose in where it does'nt belong. I think this makes Americans very paranoid. As well as that they drag other countrys into thier war on terror. Mine included.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the risk of going completely off-topic, I must say I agree with you 100%, Scott.

[Blackguard]

I have no clue what National Security issue was violated because a former folk singer wanted to go to Washington. My quandery is this, each time I want to go get a copy of a Cat Stevens CD he makes headlines about his religion. Ok I accept that he is Islam and he has a strict moral code to follow. And it is true that any real student of religion would be anti war. So is it his notoriety that gets him the headlines or is it his religion? At least Conan O'Brien gets to make jokes about it.

[IWantToTellYou]

Blackguard, you made a good point:

[ QUOTE ]
So is it his notoriety that gets him the headlines or is it his religion?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think before it was him, but since he "retired" from the music scene, it has been the religion. If he had been a Jew, a Christian, Hindu, etc., I don't think there would have been a problem with him getting into the US. Fact of the matter is, as much as I don't like to say it, the people that commited the attacks on 9-11 were Muslim (not all Arabs are Muslims and not all Muslims are Arabs). It is too bad that there is racial profiling, even if the American government won't admit it...but in the end, that is exactly what it is. I know that they have to be a bit more cautious, but what are they going to do? Not allow any Muslims or Arabs back into the United States ever?

I find it a bit ludicrous that someone who changes their name, and what they believe in, is not allowed entry into the United States. There are a lot of redundant names in the Arab/Muslim world. Is this a war against terror or is it a war against Muslims? Not all Muslims/Arabs are terrorists either, just like not all Germans are Nazis.

On the other hand, I also heard that he (Yusuf Islam), supported Ayatollah Khomeni and the Rushdie fatwa (a claim which he vehemently denies on his website), that he supported (Saddam Hussein, big deal, so did the US government), and that he also supported/supports Hamas (also denied).

Now, I am not sure how truthful these claims are (I'll have to read more about it), but could it be that these things could all have been factors into why he was denied entry? Who knows...but it is pure and simple stupidity.

They could have easily questioned him, and allowed him entry, but typical of the American government, they acted on paranoia, and kicked him out. What a shame, the way that the world has turned out.

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead1.gif

[Savoy Truffle]

I would say both of these things are probably a factor. But it's still just fear based of course.

[jtal909]

these things are always denied. My guess would be that he has made donations to charities that have funded terror.

[Paolo Meccano]

Not really... he made a donation to a charity based in a town where Hamas was also based: a particular government put 2 and 2 togther and came up with the number they were looking for...

[beatlegirl9977]

Hah, get this!:
http://imdb.com/news/wenn/ (It's the 4th story down the page...)

Spelling Mistake To Blame for Cat Stevens Terror Scare


Yusuf Islam, the British singer formerly known as Cat Stevens, was refused entry into America because of a spelling error. The 57-year-old singing star - who abandoned a successful solo career in 1977 to become a Muslim - was on a flight from London to Washington on Tuesday when his name was spotted on a US security 'watch list' and his flight was diverted before officials deported him back to Britain. Aviation sources, with access to the "no-fly" list, now insist there is no entry on the list under the name 'Yusuf Islam', but that there is a 'Youssouf Islam' on the list. The US Transportation Safety Administration alleges that Islam has links to terrorist groups, which he has denied. In a statement Islam says, "We have now initiated a legal process to try to find out exactly what is going on, and to take all necessary steps to undo the very serious, and wholly unfounded, injustice which I have suffered. The amazing thing is that I was not given, and have still not been given, any explanation whatsoever as to what it is I am accused of, or why I am now deemed an apparent security threat - let alone given an opportunity to respond to these allegations. I was simply told that the order had come from on high."

[IWantToTellYou]

See how strange things can get? In the article that I read his name was spelled "Youssuf", not "Youssouf" or "Yusuf"! I suppose the media got it confused too.

It is still a shame that he was denied entry. As I said before, a lot of these names are redundant, and that could have caused a problem, not just for Cat Stevens, but for a lot of Arabs/Muslims trying to get into the US.

[jtal909]

It really is too bad but it's today's reality.

Can anyone blame the US for scrutinizing Arab/Muslims from entering the country?

[beatlemad]

[ QUOTE ]
jtal909 Posted:
It really is too bad but it's today's reality.

Can anyone blame the US for scrutinizing Arab/Muslims from entering the country?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a very thin line between Scrutinizing and Victimising and the US must not fall into this trap!

[jtal909]

[ QUOTE ]
beatlemad Posted:
[ QUOTE ]
jtal909 Posted:
It really is too bad but it's today's reality.

Can anyone blame the US for scrutinizing Arab/Muslims from entering the country?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a very thin line between Scrutinizing and Victimising and the US must not fall into this trap!

[/ QUOTE ]

Racial profiling is an unavoidable circumstance.
Yes, unfortunately, someone who is innocent and is racial profiled will feel victimized, but terrorists must not be allowed to take advantage of our laws (which they seem to find ways to do).

In my opinion, the worse of two evils is to have innocent people murdered than it is to have Cat Stevens, for example, singled out for questioning.

[IWantToTellYou]

We know that this isn't and never will be an isolated incident. The only reason why we heard about this case, is because Cat Stevens is a celebrity. This type of thing happens everyday, all over the world, not just in the USA.

I won't get into the whole "murdering of innocent" people bit, because then we get off topic with the war in Iraq and stuff like that. I think that people know where I stand on these issues, as they have been discussed before in other topics. I think that a lot of things have to change in the world for the better, and not according to Bush...

I still think that it is a shame that Cat Stevens was denied access, but sometimes, that is just the way the world turns.

[jtal909]

I was not talking about the war in Iraq, and not talking about Bush, but about the prevention of terrorists entering the US to cause harm and destruction. Racial profiling is a reality everywhere.

It's such a big deal because it's Cat Stevens but I'd bet anyway that he's made contributions that made it's way to terror intentionally to help the cause or unintentionally to help Muslims.

[Hari's Chick]

[ QUOTE ]
jtal909 Posted:It's such a big deal because it's Cat Stevens but I'd bet anyway that he's made contributions that made it's way to terror intentionally to help the cause or unintentionally to help Muslims.

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif I don't understand this part??

Here is food for thought (in general, about racial profiling)~

http://reason.com/0108/fe.gc.the.shtml

The practice of racial profiling has been a prominent topic for the past several years. In his February address to Congress, President George W. Bush reported that he'd asked Attorney General John Ashcroft "to develop specific recommendations to end racial profiling. It's wrong, and we will end it in America." The nomination of former New Jersey Gov. Christine Todd Whitman as head of the Environmental Protection Agency was challenged on the basis of her alleged complicity in racial profiling practices in the Garden State. Whitman had pioneered her own unique form of "minority outreach" when she was photographed frisking a black crime suspect in 1996. Copies of the photo were circulated to senators prior to her confirmation vote. (By the same token, in February 1999, Whitman fired State Police Superintendent Carl A. Williams after he gave a newspaper interview in which he justified racial profiling and linked minority groups to drug trafficking.) More recently, Eleanor Holmes Norton, the District of Columbia's non-voting member of Congress, has tried to introduce legislation that would withhold federal highway dollars from states that have not explicitly banned racial profiling.

Although some observers claim that racial profiling doesn't exist, there is an abundance of stories and statistics that document the practice. One case where law enforcement officers were particularly bold in their declaration of intent involved U.S. Forest Service officers in California's Mendocino National Forest last year. In an attempt to stop marijuana growing, forest rangers were told to question all Hispanics whose cars were stopped, regardless of whether pot was actually found in their vehicles. Tim Crews, the publisher of the Sacramento Valley Mirror, a biweekly newspaper, published a memo he'd gotten from a federal law enforcement officer. The memo told park rangers "to develop probable cause for stop...if a vehicle stop is conducted and no marijuana is located and the vehicle has Hispanics inside, at a minimum we would like all individuals FI'd [field interrogated]." A spokeswoman for Mendocino National Forest called the directive an "unfortunate use of words."

George Will, in an April 19 Washington Post column, contends that the use of race as a criterion in traffic stops is fine, as long as it is just "one factor among others in estimating criminal suspiciousness." Similarly, Jackson Toby, a professor of sociology at Rutgers, argued in a 1999 Wall Street Journal op-ed that, "If drug traffickers are disproportionately black or Hispanic, the police don't need to be racist to stop many minority motorists; they simply have to be efficient in targeting potential drug traffickers."

****
Personally, I daydream of George Will finding out he has some 'non white' blood running through those self important veins of his.

[sourmilkpinky]

Racial profiling is human nature IMO. It happens in many aspects of life. I beliieve it is unavoidable. Think about it in relation to your job? What do YOU think?

[Hari's Chick]

Post Deleted By Hari's Chick

[Hari's Chick]

Thinking....(off subject, maybe) but 'human nature' always encompasses that which is easy, base, and vile...and that which is transcendant? Human nature is both, and ours to chose which to be?

I think racial profiling is ridiculous. To some extent, we all catagorize to make better sense of the world. Observing differences is normal. But typifying potential 'criminal behaviors' according to race is where things go really wrong.

I don't know what you mean about jobs, Pinky?

[jtal909]

Would you feel comfortable to be on a plane in the US (or anywhere for that matter) with several Muslim males between the ages of 18 and 40?
Isn't that racial profiling?
How about a Muslim taking videotape of federal buildings and landmarks?
How do you feel about that?

Terrorism has taken racial profiling a few levels further than that of a common criminal, obviously since 9/11, because of the nature of the intent.
Pre 9/11, Cat Stevens doesn't get questioned.

Right or wrong, racial profiling goes on, only it's not called racial profiling when a bad guy is caught, only when an innocent person is scrutinized for being what they are and yes, it is unfair to them but that is what's become of this madness and it just might stop a terrorist from committing a crime.

[jtal909]

[ QUOTE ]
Hari's Chick Posted:
[ QUOTE ]
jtal909 Posted:It's such a big deal because it's Cat Stevens but I'd bet anyway that he's made contributions that made it's way to terror intentionally to help the cause or unintentionally to help Muslims.

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif I don't understand this part??


[/ QUOTE ]

It's possible that charitable contributions that the Cat has made to Muslim organizations could have ended up funding terror whether he knew it or not.

[Hari's Chick]

[ QUOTE ]
jtal909 Posted:
Would you feel comfortable to be on a plane in the US (or anywhere for that matter) with several Muslim males between the ages of 18 and 40?
Isn't that racial profiling?
How about a Muslim taking videotape of federal buildings and landmarks?
How do you feel about that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally honest answer... if I was getting on the plane, no I would not worry. And no about the landmark/videotape thing as well. But....yeah, if George were here and about to board such a plane I would panic and try to pull him off?
But I am not proud of that reaction? I think it is the wrong one to have.

[Hari's Chick]

I love this site, and this story of Yogananda. He can say so much in few words. The site is also special to me because though my skin is white as snow, my maternal Grandfather was African American and Indian. He suffered a lot under racial prejudices.

"God is not impressed by human prejudices.
"Sometimes," he continued, "you see whole families who do nothing but fight amongst themselves. They were enemies before–attracted together into the same home, where now they must work out their hatred at close quarters!

http://www.yoganandaafrican-american.com/html/stor_karmic_boom.html

******

I agree that until we can all see people as people in every situation, then we have not fully learned that Jesus/God reisdes indiscriminantly within all skin types. It is fear and attachment which create racism and racial profiling. But if our only attachment is to God, and God is within every person regardless of skin color regardless or religion, then our purpose is to serve the God within each person we meet and therefore meet each with a loving, open, accepting heart.

Prabhupad said, "I am a servant or the servant of the servant of Krishna". People today dismiss humility? The violence in the hearts of the people arresting Cat Stevens, who were probably charged on adreneline (...you know...it is drug of the new century.....) thinking, "We got one! We got one!" That adreneline makes them reside in their egos; they create an us/them consciousness, and elevate their "Us-Ness" as superior...then they feel real good/proper/swank about themselves. That is the evil of establishing that type of us/them consciousness.

It all then comes down to attachment and fear. I think these preclude love, Real (Divine) Love. http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Like Jesus said, you have to give up everything (lose attachments) to follow Him.

I don't think there is a difference between racial profiling for 'common criminals' vs terrorism. I see it as microcosm/macrocosm of the same dynamic. All fear?

[IWantToTellYou]

I think you made excellent, excellent points HC!

Fear breeds racial profiling and yes, even racism itself. I suppose that it is easier to say "racial profiling" than it is to say racism. In the end isn't that what racial profiling is? Just plain racism?

I have both Muslim friends who are white, and Muslim friends who are Arabs. They feel just as horrible about what happened on September 11th as the rest of us do.

You cannot put all of your eggs into one basket. Not every Muslim, nor every Arab is a terrorist. There are people who take things to the extreme...In every religion, not just Islam.

Here in Ottawa we have 5 detainees, all in prison without any formal charge. Did I mention that they are all Muslims/Arabs? Or was that already self-evident?

Is this democracy now?

How would you like to be detained for no good reason, and not formally charged with any crime?

A question was asked if people would be comfortable with a Muslim taking pictures/video footage of a federal building? Why not? I have taken pictures of Parliament Hill here in Ottawa, and people still do. What about landmarks? I took tons of pictures of the Eiffel Tower while I was in Paris, and I saw others doing it too. So, does this mean that we all have a hidden agenda? Or is it because I am white that it makes it ok for me to take the pictures? Because I am not a threat?

I think that it is fear. Fear of the unknown. Not knowing what is going to happen tomorrow...It is a shame that there is racism/racial profiling, but I suppose it is just a fact of life. Something that I don't ever want to have as a part of my life...So I'll close with one of the best quotes that I have ever read:

"I still believe in spite of everything that people are really good at heart." - Anne Frank

Call me naive, but I suppose I would just like the world to change for the better & for everyone...

[jtal909]

You girls are both politically and morally correct, I'm not disputing that, but felt compelled to write because everyone thought it was so terrible and such a joke that Cat Stevens was detained and I'm saying that that's the reality of the current situation.
There is an international war going on right now.
If his name matched that of a person of interest, then he gets questioned because of the possibilities.

IWTTY: "Fear breeds racial profiling and yes, even racism itself. I suppose that it is easier to say "racial profiling" than it is to say racism. In the end isn't that what racial profiling is? Just plain racism?"

Why is that fear or racism? If 19 Muslim Arab males aged 18 to 40 hijacked 4 planes and crashed them, or planted bombs on subway trains, doesn't it make sense to be cautious of that target group?

And video has been found among captured terrorists of federal buildings and landmarks. If I see that target group filming landmarks I have to wonder.
Does that make me racist?

And nobody here is saying that every Muslim or Arab is a terrorist, but there is a target group that will be scrutinized just because of the possibilities and that's reality.

[sourmilkpinky]

I agree with you jtal. Completely.

Let me tell you quickly what happened to me recently. I was traveling with my sister (who probably shares Hc's & IWTTY's views) and at one airport during a layover a lady (I will not involve the race here) sat down next to us and a few minutes later got up and walked away, leaving a bag of hers next to us. She disappeared out of sight. After twenty minutes or so and they started boarding the flight I turned to my sister and said, "if they finish boarding this flight I guess I will just take this bag up to the desk". My sisters reply was "oh just leave it there". Now my sister is a much more frequent flyer than I and I was surprised by her answer so I said "I can't do that, you aren't supposed to leave bags unattended". She then said" Well do what ever you want but I'd just leave it there". I then explained to her the dangers of that and she thought I was being racist and paranoid. Was I? or was I just looking out for the security of my fellow being?
Luckily the lady returned for final boarding and for her bag and luckily I didn't have anything illegal or dangerous to slip in her bag http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[Savoy Truffle]

I agree with you too, jtal. Terrorists can exist in any race or nationality as we have seen in the past, but the US government zeroing in on Arabs or Muslims trying to enter the country is understandable after 9/11.

[Hari's Chick]

Pinky, Well..I don't care the color of the person's skin, I would take proper actions of any abandoned luggage? Because you see the same in England in the subways because of the Irish/English conflict..."watch abandoned packages"...it is common sense, imo.

But still, I believe that I should not be detained if I am an middle eastern male, or group of males. I saw an amazing show on airport security and what we are capable of achieving as far as prevention goes. Sure, we should have gobs of security after 9/11, but ALL people should be subject to EQUAL scrutiny.

Otherwise, I agree with IWTTY that racial profiling= same as racism.

Maybe people who have not had close personal experience cannot imagine how detrimental it is to a person's sense of self worth and self esteem to automatically be identified with skin color. It so much does not matter. We are all the same inside. And I think we keep coming back around til we understand that?

It is like a Yogi who gave one man who was comfortably white...the guru in meditation gave him a view of one of his past lives. The man said, "I had very very dark skin!" And the Guru said, "Yes, and at your perceptions in this life, you shall again!" We just cycle through I think til we can internalize that.

[Hari's Chick]

[ QUOTE ]
IWantToTellYou Posted:Here in Ottawa we have 5 detainees, all in prison without any formal charge. Did I mention that they are all Muslims/Arabs? Or was that already self-evident?

Is this democracy now?

How would you like to be detained for no good reason, and not formally charged with any crime?


[/ QUOTE ]

That is so terrible...

Yeah, it is not democracy, it is selective democracy!

Another reason Ralph Nader makes so much sense to me~ he addresses it eloquently...
http://votenader.com/issues/index.php?cid=18

[twovirgins]

i think its not a democracy its a hypocracy!!
ive heared this said once and sadly i cant qoate it word for word but ill give you the general idea i think it really applies to this kind of stuff it may have come fom a holocost surviver

One day the powers that be came after the drug addicts and took them away I didnt care I wasnt a drug addict.Then one day the came and took away the homosexuals >I didnt look and it didnt bother me im not gay>Then they took away the artists and rebel leaders.I didnt think anything of it >Then one day they took away me becase there was no one left to stand up

[Paolo Meccano]

The quote is by Martin Niemoeller (http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/29611.html), TwoVirgins:


[ QUOTE ]
First they came for the Communists but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists but I was not one of them, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews but I was not Jewish so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.martin-niemoeller-stiftung.de/ (German only)

[twovirgins]

holy misqoute batman! i was way off thats the last time i try to remeber a quote sheesh !!my appogies every one http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh5.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/batman.gif*zips lips*

[twovirgins]

*unzips lips* here this says exactly what i was trying to say Thanks John for speaking for me again!
"there may not be much differenc between chairman mao and richard Nixon if we strip them naked
there may be much difference in Marilyn Monroe and Lenny Bruce if we check their coffins
There may not be much difference in the white house and the hall of people if we count the windows
there may not be much difference in Raquel Welch and Jerry Rubin if we listen to their heartbeat

were all water from different rivers
thats why its so easy to meet
were all water in this vast ocean
someday we'll evaporate together"

[IWantToTellYou]

[ QUOTE ]
jtal909 Posted:
IWTTY: "Fear breeds racial profiling and yes, even racism itself. I suppose that it is easier to say "racial profiling" than it is to say racism. In the end isn't that what racial profiling is? Just plain racism?"

Why is that fear or racism? If 19 Muslim Arab males aged 18 to 40 hijacked 4 planes and crashed them, or planted bombs on subway trains, doesn't it make sense to be cautious of that target group?

And video has been found among captured terrorists of federal buildings and landmarks. If I see that target group filming landmarks I have to wonder.
Does that make me racist?


[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, I don't want you to think that I am attacking you. That is not how I want to come across...

Fear does in fact breed racism. It is obvious. No one ever had a major problem with Muslims or Arabs pre-9/11. If you have a problem with any race, any at all, then yes, I am sorry to say that you are a racist (I am not saying that you are, I am just using that as an example). Now, in our post-9/11 world it seems that all Muslims or Arabs are looked down upon. That they are calculating, and all around evil people. They all have to be looked at as "terrorists" because one of the hundred that you might see in a day could very well be one. If we have this way of thinking towards Muslims/Arabs, then why don't we think that Germans are all just a bunch of Nazis? Is it because it happened so long ago, or is it because it happened so far away? Fear, paranoia, and racism go hand in hand.

Like I said before; I took plenty of picutres of France's national landmarks while I was over there. How come it is okay for me to take pictures, and it wouldn't be for a Muslim/Arab? How come I am not looked at suspiciously and they are? Yes, that is racism. I am white therefore I am not a threat. It is taking away the basic rights and freedoms of people because they are "suspected", or look "suspicious". It's not right. Yes, be more cautious, I agree, but don't take away their rights and freedoms. They are human beings just like you and I.

I also want to add that I do not support any terrorist group or organization. I just believe in fair and equal treatment of everyone, no matter what race you are, or what religion you belong to.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<font color="orange">
and what does ex-Cat have to say about all of this?

"ooh baby baby it's a wild world!"

hahaha http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif </font>

[twovirgins]

[ QUOTE ]
things we said today Posted:
<font color="orange">
and what does ex-Cat have to say about all of this?

"ooh baby baby it's a wild world!"

hahaha http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif </font>

[/ QUOTE ]hahaha!

[**DONOTDELETE**]

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif

[HMVNipper]

I don't really want to get into the political discussion...I just wanted to say that I think that racial and religious profiling is wrong, plain wrong. What's next, are we going to start making all the Muslims wear yellow stars-and-crescents on their clothes and herding them into ghettos so we can cart them away? Be real...I don't think any person here would allow that to happen.

The vast majority of Muslim or Arab people are decent people. They do not condone these acts of terrorism and in fact decry them. To tar all Muslims with the terrorist brush is the same as saying all Catholic priests are child molesters, all cops are maniacs who indulge in corruption and gun down innocent people, and so on and so on...and of course that is not true.

I believe it is the responsibility of all people to care about all people and our world. There is a quote from Rabbi Hillel that comes to mind that also sums it up, IMO:

If I am not for myself, then who will be for me?
If I am not for others, then who am I?
And if not now, when?

[FPSHOT]

George Harrison became "the quiet one" because someone said so and many copied it. George made fun of that, because he was far from being quiet. He was right. He maybe did not say that much compared to others, but he wanted to stay out of many useless discussions where people just "act like big girls" (sorry girls, just quoting http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif not meaning anything with it ) and say a lot of 'nothing'.

Bla Bla Bla ....B O R I N G !!!!!!!!!!

So now it's "Cat Stevens" .... he just flew somewhere... thousands of people do it every day.. but oh oops he is a Muslim...let's get him !!!!!!!!!!!!

That will make up for not finding the ones these idiots are searching for since 9-11 and can not find ...while it's...90 a day these days in Iraq and ofcourse it is all justified...

Sure... let's get Cat Stevens !!!! Then America will applaud again and forget about the real threat.

*sigh*

What a waste of time this is....

[jtal909]

[ QUOTE ]
IWantToTellYou Posted:

First of all, I don't want you to think that I am attacking you. That is not how I want to come across...

Fear does in fact breed racism. It is obvious. No one ever had a major problem with Muslims or Arabs pre-9/11. If you have a problem with any race, any at all, then yes, I am sorry to say that you are a racist (I am not saying that you are, I am just using that as an example). Now, in our post-9/11 world it seems that all Muslims or Arabs are looked down upon. That they are calculating, and all around evil people. They all have to be looked at as "terrorists" because one of the hundred that you might see in a day could very well be one. If we have this way of thinking towards Muslims/Arabs, then why don't we think that Germans are all just a bunch of Nazis? Is it because it happened so long ago, or is it because it happened so far away? Fear, paranoia, and racism go hand in hand.

Like I said before; I took plenty of picutres of France's national landmarks while I was over there. How come it is okay for me to take pictures, and it wouldn't be for a Muslim/Arab? How come I am not looked at suspiciously and they are? Yes, that is racism. I am white therefore I am not a threat. It is taking away the basic rights and freedoms of people because they are "suspected", or look "suspicious". It's not right. Yes, be more cautious, I agree, but don't take away their rights and freedoms. They are human beings just like you and I.

I also want to add that I do not support any terrorist group or organization. I just believe in fair and equal treatment of everyone, no matter what race you are, or what religion you belong to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not so much fear, but hatred for what happened on 9/11, and yes, many Americans are prejudiced against Arab/Muslims because of this and that's a fact, not that it's right, but it's human nature.
And I'm sure the same was felt toward Germans after the Holocaust, but it was some time ago and I know of people who won't buy a German car to this day, for example.
That's not fear. That's something else.
I appreciate your political correctness rhetorically asking why
you are not viewed suspiciously taking pictures of landmarks, but your target group did not change the landscape of the international community by blowing up innocent civilians.

It is a fact that Islamic Extremists, who hide among their normal brothers and sisters, want to harm western civilization, especially the Americans.
Because of this, unfortunately, politically right or wrong, Cat Stevens gets questioned because his name matches that of someone on a terror watch list.
Should that not have happened if the authorities weren't sure if this was the right guy and take the chance that a potential criminal was entering the US?

[jtal909]

[ QUOTE ]
FPSHOT Posted:
George Harrison became "the quiet one" because someone said so and many copied it. George made fun of that, because he was far from being quiet. He was right. He maybe did not say that much compared to others, but he wanted to stay out of many useless discussions where people just "act like big girls" (sorry girls, just quoting http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif not meaning anything with it ) and say a lot of 'nothing'.

Bla Bla Bla ....B O R I N G !!!!!!!!!!

So now it's "Cat Stevens" .... he just flew somewhere... thousands of people do it every day.. but oh oops he is a Muslim...let's get him !!!!!!!!!!!!

That will make up for not finding the ones these idiots are searching for since 9-11 and can not find ...while it's...90 a day these days in Iraq and ofcourse it is all justified...

Sure... let's get Cat Stevens !!!! Then America will applaud again and forget about the real threat.

*sigh*

What a waste of time this is....

[/ QUOTE ]

Look, this is not about the war in Iraq, but why Cat Stevens was stopped for questioning.
This is also not about a "surrogate catch" of the head terrorist to forget about the real threat. That is the smallest cliche' I've heard in a long time.
And it's not about being politically correct, either. There are some hard and harsh realities that we face.
And oh yeah. There's life outside of George Harrison, you know.

[FPSHOT]

[ QUOTE ]
jtal909 Posted:Look, this is not about the war in Iraq, but why Cat Stevens was stopped for questioning.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is what I was referring to as well, JT...

[Hari's Chick]

[ QUOTE ]
jtal909 Posted:There's life outside of George Harrison, you know.

[/ QUOTE ]

OKay, now THIS is simply untrue.

(****teasing****)

[FPSHOT]

Exactly.....

[Hari's Chick]

I think we all may just agree on one thing which is this....that we need a great degree of security at the airports and what not. The security, if it was high enough standard, could be applied toward *everyone* entering our country. Maybe that can be our conversational compromise?

JT, you live closer to the center of the tragedy than do I, and maybe that brings you to different conclusions as well. We all want peace, I know that. We all want innocent people not harmed. The problem is how to bring this about the best way. Having high airport security without racial bias is the best way, imo. (I'm not posing as politically correct, you know? I just feel that way...)

I think lots of people think folks pose as politically correct to dig themselves, but really...I just think it is actually sad. I am not concerned about being 'correct' or not at all. Like, as a Mom.... if I had adopted a middle eastern child (just using a hypothetic...) and knew this child was an excellent third baseman, a talented guitarist, loved surfing or ice skating or or or.... all these talents each of us possess...potentially...and then someone were to arrest and detain my baby (grown up) because in spite of WHO they were...their skin was not pleasing to the officer of the day. You know? It strips a person of everything they ARE, really.....you know?

Cat is a cool guy and it is sad to see him hassled. He is a peaceful person, from all I know.

[darkhorse]

[ QUOTE ]
jtal909 Posted:
So Look, this is not about the war in Iraq, but why Cat Stevens was stopped for questioning.
This is also not about a "surrogate catch" of the head terrorist to forget about the real threat. That is the smallest cliche' I've heard in a long time.
And it's not about being politically correct, either. There are some hard and harsh realities that we face.
And oh yeah. There's life outside of George Harrison, you know.

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect, jtal, and understanding what you people from North America are going through lately, I must say that this kind of harsh (and almost 'violent') replies are what make people from all other parts of the world be at best ashamed of what people from the US represent nowadays, and what Matt so elloquently posted a few pages ago.

I am simply not in agreement with the tone of your response and my beliefs tell me that I have to post my opinion, even though it might no be very important to you or the other people in this thread.

[Legs]

I wonder who were involved in the Oklahoma bombing.
Wait, weren't these white American male?

[twovirgins]

[ QUOTE ]
Legs Posted:
I wonder who were involved in the Oklahoma bombing.
Wait, weren't these white American male?

[/ QUOTE ]
very true we better not let them in the country

[jtal909]

[ QUOTE ]
darkhorse Posted:
[ QUOTE ]
jtal909 Posted:
So Look, this is not about the war in Iraq, but why Cat Stevens was stopped for questioning.
This is also not about a "surrogate catch" of the head terrorist to forget about the real threat. That is the smallest cliche' I've heard in a long time.
And it's not about being politically correct, either. There are some hard and harsh realities that we face.
And oh yeah. There's life outside of George Harrison, you know.

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect, jtal, and understanding what you people from North America are going through lately, I must say that this kind of harsh (and almost 'violent') replies are what make people from all other parts of the world be at best ashamed of what people from the US represent nowadays, and what Matt so elloquently posted a few pages ago.

I am simply not in agreement with the tone of your response and my beliefs tell me that I have to post my opinion, even though it might no be very important to you or the other people in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about the "tone" in FPSHOT's post before mine which caused that response?

Funny how that doesn't bother you but mine does.

[jtal909]

[ QUOTE ]
FPSHOT Posted:
[ QUOTE ]
jtal909 Posted:Look, this is not about the war in Iraq, but why Cat Stevens was stopped for questioning.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is what I was referring to as well, JT...

[/ QUOTE ]

"That will make up for not finding the ones these idiots are searching for since 9-11 and can not find ...while it's...90 a day these days in Iraq and ofcourse it is all justified... "

[jtal909]

So now they find downloaded security information about US schools on discs in Iraq. I wonder if that was a tourist wanting to learn about schools in the US.

All the more reason to be diligent about knowing who is entering the country.

[jtal909]

I happened to catch a few minutes of Cat Stevens on Larry King the other night and Larry asked him about the anti Semetic verses in the Koran.
Well, Cat Stevens gave such a roundabout and avoiding the issue non-answering response that he lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned.
If there ever was any doubt about his participation in funding Islamic "charities" it is now gone.
So if the name on the watch list really was his, he deserved to be questioned.

[jtal909]

The world has changed in many ways since 9/11 and many sensibilities and attitudes have changed ,like it or not.
I can't see how, under the circumstances, that in the case of stopping Islamic extremists from entering the US that we should not be cautious of a certain group of people who fit the description.
There is way to much at stake.

[FPSHOT]

It's really a miracle that the FBI prevented Cat Stevens from entering the USA .... again !!!

*sigh*

sorry JT we always agree on many things but not on this..

[darkhorse]

[ QUOTE ]
jtal909 Posted:
What about the "tone" in FPSHOT's post before mine which caused that response?

Funny how that doesn't bother you but mine does.

[/ QUOTE ]

His tone was, in the worst case, ironic. Yours was a showcase of the scary attitude that the United States has in their foreign relations department. I don't see a point in comparing both sentences.

No, we're not in agreement on that subject and we'll never be. I just thought I'd point that out.

[ringo_rama]

Yeah, I was really worried that Cat Stevens was going to attack my country. http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Worst. Deportation. Ever.

[FPSHOT]

[ QUOTE ]
darkhorse Posted:
His tone was, in the worst case, ironic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can confirm that http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[jtal909]

[ QUOTE ]
darkhorse Posted:
[ QUOTE ]
jtal909 Posted:
What about the "tone" in FPSHOT's post before mine which caused that response?

Funny how that doesn't bother you but mine does.

[/ QUOTE ]

His tone was, in the worst case, ironic. Yours was a showcase of the scary attitude that the United States has in their foreign relations department. I don't see a point in comparing both sentences.

No, we're not in agreement on that subject and we'll never be. I just thought I'd point that out.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I disagree with your take on this and ALWAYS will.
And I'm not looking for your acceptance, just trying to offer my views on why cat stevens was detained.

I see anti American sentiments in your conclusions as to the tone of my post, and the same in FPSHOT's post.
And because of that, you see irony, while I see anger and ridicule in his post, but that's OK because it's anti-American and suits you. You think it's liberal but it's closed minded, small and cliche'.
And because of those sentiments you see anger in my response, which I don't. I see a firm rebuttal.

So back to Cat Stevens, the supposed peacenik, who could not answer to Larry King why there were anti Semetic verses in the Koran.
His name was on a watch list for his alleged, and after the Larry King interview I believe true, contributions to charities that fund terror (Hamas who bomb Israeli citizens are terrorists) and he was detained.
I will admit he wrote some good songs, though I personally did not like his music, but that does not give him a free ride, and if he wants to contribute to terror than he has to face the consequences.

[matt5]

Before this gets in worse I would hope people would see both sides of the issue. Of course I am not in favour of any government refusing entry to someone for a baseless reason but on the other hand I believe Stevens has been linked to some fairly radical groups. He has also supported the sentence on Salman Rushdie which I consider to be a hate crime and a crime against free speech. I agree that the American government can do some terrible things (BUT ALL GOVERNMENTS DO) but I will not condone Anti-Americanism for the sake of it. Perhaps it was a mistake to not let cat stevens in but its also possible that we do not know all the facts. I would not want anyone coming to my country who promotes hate. This is not an easy issue for sure.

[Legs]

This has nothing to do with Anti-Americanism. I am not Anti American, neither is FPSHOT or DarkHorse. It's very typical these days, that someone gets brands as being Anti-American because he has fair critism on the policy of the American goverment.

It's funny that you should call Darkhorse's posts closed minded, small and cliche' Jtal, cause I actually think that about yours.

[beatlelover45223]

Guidelines for the US Homeland Security Act, were being followed, that's all, no one was hurt here, as opposed to the 1000's all over the world that have lost their lives too terrorists.

[darkhorse]

[ QUOTE ]
jtal909 Posted:
And I'm not looking for your acceptance, just trying to offer my views on why cat stevens was detained.


[/ QUOTE ]

...which is perfectly right, I don't think I ever said it was wrong to post one's opinions in a "Discussion Forum".



[ QUOTE ]
I see anti American sentiments in your conclusions as to the tone of my post, and the same in FPSHOT's post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anti-American? You see, that's a very dangerous sentence in which some of the people in your country (including, unfortunately, your current President), have been taking as a repetitive adjective to call people who don't agree with their views. I would NEVER expect you or them to agree with me or the rest of the world, but calling someone "Anti-American" is really a strong adjective which I don't think it suits me at least. You'd think I'd want all the people from the United States to die just because I think their foreign relations policies is mislead, and some other points that actually belong to another completely different discussions... please. I have friends in the USA, and friends who don't actually have my same views, and we can share our opinions on this subject with a higher degree of civilization and respect, with them telling me what are their disagreements against my points, and viceversa. Always in a tone of mutual respect, of course. I don't think I was disrespectful in the first place, and I am not that paranoid to look for "hate" or "anger" or "ridicule" in their messages.

[ QUOTE ]
And because of that, you see irony, while I see anger and ridicule in his post, but that's OK because it's anti-American and suits you.

[/ QUOTE ]

One more think about the "anti-American" thing... If you return to your Geography books, you'll see that Chile belongs to the American continent. So being an "anti-American" would mean being an "anti-Chilean", and, in the long run, an "anti-myself" as well. Perhaps you'd like to think that's the right 'take' on this.

[ QUOTE ]
You think it's liberal but it's closed minded, small and cliche'.

[/ QUOTE ]

And, with that sentence, you've saved me the next point I was going to make about civilized discussions.

Anyway I don't really care if there's people like you who are always going to think that I'm "closed-minded", have a "small" way of thinking and use "cliché" words just because I expose my views in the clearest way that I'm able to... I will always go on doing that. And, of course, expecting "firm rebuttals" from people who tend to have the same way of thinking as you. Thanks God, the majority of the people from your country knows what freedom is, and even when they're not in agreement, they can hold a sane discussion most of the times without thinking that everyone in disagreement is a potential enemy.

[ringo_rama]

I'm American, and I completely agree with darkhorse, Legs, and FPSHOT. If that makes me anti-American, I better go leave the country now.

[jtal909]

I said anti-American sentiment, not anti-American, and that is where you Darkhorse, draw your conclusions about what you think is irony in FPSHOT's post where he sarcastically mentions death in the war in Iraq (that to me is offensive), and uses the term "idiots", while you think my rebuttal is "harsh".

My post (which was actually pretty objective if you go and look at it) offending you but FPSHOT's did not, shows that you share those sentiments, largely because of the war in Iraq I understand, but this discussion was not about that.


Ad yes, I see small minds clouded by the anti-American SENTIMENT toward the war in Iraq (is that specific enough ) who will not even entertain any of the points that I was trying to make as to the possibilities of why Cat Stevens was detained/deported.

[sourmilkpinky]

[ QUOTE ]
beatlelover45223 Posted:
Guidelines for the US Homeland Security Act, were being followed, that's all, no one was hurt here, as opposed to the 1000's all over the world that have lost their lives too terrorists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent point here! May I add the several hundreds of lives that have been saved because of these guidelines.

[FPSHOT]

I am not anti American....

just realistic..

*sigh*

[Paolo Meccano]

[ QUOTE ]
jtal909 Posted:
If there ever was any doubt about his participation in funding Islamic "charities" it is now gone.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not until you offer any proof...

[FPSHOT]

"proof" is a touchy subject http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[jtal909]

[ QUOTE ]
Paolo Meccano Posted:
[ QUOTE ]
jtal909 Posted:
If there ever was any doubt about his participation in funding Islamic "charities" it is now gone.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not until you offer any proof...

[/ QUOTE ]

That quote was taken out of context.
I said that to me he lost credibility when he skirted the issue when asked why there were anti-Semetic verses in the Koran while he's supposed to be about peace.
Go figure...

[jtal909]

[ QUOTE ]
[b]Legs Posted:[/b

It's funny that you should call Darkhorse's posts closed minded, small and cliche' Jtal, cause I actually think that about yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh2.gif

[motherTheresa]

ooohhh goody! are we choosing sides now?

yippee! we're reverting back to our childhoods! http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap2.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap2.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap2.gif

i agree with so &amp; so!

i agree with so &amp; so!

am i the only one that
sees that this is only going to spiral downward into feelings of resentment towards other people? i think it's
a damn shame. it's a BEATLE board! lighten the f*ck up,
already.

[Pepperland Kamer]

[ QUOTE ]
motherTheresa Posted:

ooohhh goody! are we choosing sides now?

yippee! we're reverting back to our childhoods! http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap2.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap2.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clap2.gif

i agree with so &amp; so!

i agree with so &amp; so!

am i the only one that
sees that this is only going to spiral downward into feelings of resentment towards other people? i think it's
a damn shame. it's a BEATLE board! lighten the f*ck up,
already.

[/ QUOTE ]


You all got schooled!
http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif

[matt5]

here is my contribution to this topic

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/afraid5.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/afraid4.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/afraid7.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil3.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/alien1.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dork2.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dracula.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunce1.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fire2.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/alien5.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh4.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh3.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lips2.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/monkey.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mooner.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mohawk1.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angel3.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer2.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eyepoke.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/electric1.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/electric2.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/drunk.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/electric1.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush2.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/brush.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beatup.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bigeyes2.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/barf3.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/whip.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wazzzup.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue5.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue6.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue8.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue9.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/square.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sleep1.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sleep2.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angry11.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/skull2.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/skull1.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scream6.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/afraid6.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devil9.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/fart.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer1.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jail.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scream5.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/snake.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angry8.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool4.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/conehead.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/coffee.gif

[FPSHOT]

[ QUOTE ]
jtal909 Posted:I can't see how, under the circumstances, that in the case of stopping Islamic extremists from entering the US that we should not be cautious of a certain group of people who fit the description.


[/ QUOTE ]
To that I absolutely agree with you http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

for those who fit that description.....

if it's okay I would not limit it to the US only btw.... http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif there have been some serious threats in Europe and even more close... to Holland too, and even more close.... to the town I live.... even recently..

[Hari's Chick]

As long as 'fitting the description' is about a specific name on a list, maybe, but not one determined by ethnicity or belief systems. Still, I say if the security measures I saw on tv (such amazing capabilities), if they were employed, such mishaps seem avoidable. Legs pointed out too the Oklahoma City affair.... we need to be careful all around. Extremists come in all forms, sadly. Yet, we do not want a Big Brother state? It is a difficult balancing game.

[Hari's Chick]

...even for those fitting a specific name, we must remember 'innocent until proven guilty' too. http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[twovirgins]

[ QUOTE ]
Hari's Chick Posted:
, sadly. Yet, we do not want a Big Brother state? It is a difficult balancing game.

[/ QUOTE ]

i just read today that "they" (meaning us goverment) are going to start (if they havent allready ) to conduct survelleince on chat rooms like this speaking of big brother

[HMVNipper]

[ QUOTE ]
twovirgins Posted:
[ QUOTE ]
Hari's Chick Posted:
, sadly. Yet, we do not want a Big Brother state? It is a difficult balancing game.

[/ QUOTE ]

i just read today that "they" (meaning us goverment) are going to start (if they havent allready ) to conduct survelleince on chat rooms like this speaking of big brother

[/ QUOTE ]

That is WRONG. Plain WRONG. What's next, getting arrested if you speak out against der Fuhrer...I mean, the president?

Screw that, the day they start doing surveillance on people like that is the day I hit the streets as a protester. THAT is un-American, we don't live in a police state.

The way some people in government feel they have the right to trounce the Constitution just BURNS me...and if that makes me "subversive," then so be it. Screw 'em.

[Hari's Chick]

[ QUOTE ]
twovirgins Posted:
[ QUOTE ]
Hari's Chick Posted:
, sadly. Yet, we do not want a Big Brother state? It is a difficult balancing game.

[/ QUOTE ]

i just read today that "they" (meaning us goverment) are going to start (if they havent allready ) to conduct survelleince on chat rooms like this speaking of big brother

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know they already scan emails &amp; cell and landline phones for certain words?

In typical cynical humor a friend and I joke about this big brother state in our mails...

"Hi (detinator)

How (fuse) are (fertilizer) you? (Taliban taliban taliban....)"

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[IWantToTellYou]

Looks like I should re-read Nineteen Eighty-Four! http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink2.gif Great book though, would be very scary if it ever came true! It has already started happening, don't kid yourself...

I just have a few more things to say on this subject...I don't want this to turn into an all out "flame war" between forum members. We're all adults here, and I think we are mature enough to discuss things in a civil manner...

I think that a lot of people are against the US government. I have nothing against the people...but the governement must be stopped. I do not agree with anything that it has been doing ever since 9-11. So, that having been said, I do not think that anyone is "anti-American". Even if they are, they aren't against the people, but the government.

You see, money plays a big role in this too. Everything that the US government does is tied in with money. Money makes the world go 'round. Your President has business ties with the most Arab/Muslim country in the world...Saudi Arabia. And, did you know that certain Taliban members were visitors to Texas in 2001? What the hell is up with that!?!?! Why were members of the Taliban allowed entry into the US? Is it because it was prior to 9/11, and they weren't the enemy then? Or was it for money? Oil? What was it? If these people are terrorists, why were they allowed entry? Just THINK about it. And Cat Stevens gets detained? http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif Makes perfect sense to me!

Jtal said that it is:
[ QUOTE ]
"not so much fear, but hatred for what happened on 9/11, and yes many Americans are prejudiced against Arab/Muslims..."

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw a documentary on the CBC about peace protesting and one of the protesters was carrying a sign which read:

"Americans think! Why does the whole world hate you?"

Why do you think that Arab/Muslims don't like the US? They feel the same way that Americans feel about them. Unfortunately, hate is a vicious circle...Once it starts, you cannot stop it...

Like FPSHOT said, there have been terrorist threats all over the world. Not just in the United States. Other countries are having major problems, look at England for example.

Bottom line is we cannot prevent anyone from travelling. It is everyone's right to travel. Whether you are White, Black, Hispanic, East Indian, and, yes even if you are Arab. No matter what race or religion you belong to, you have the right to board a plane, train or automobile.

I still stand by my sentiments, even if you think that they are just "politically correct". It is just how I feel.

I agree with HC. There is a need for tighter security, and security is EVERYONE'S business. Therefore, everyone should be treated the same way. Everyone entering or leaving a country should be searched using the same technique.

I boarded a plane in France, just after those 2 planes went down in Russia, almost simultaneously. The security was much tighter at Charles de Gaulle Airport that day, then it was when I entered the country. Everyone was being frisked, not just the Arabs/Muslims. Even I was. I didn't set of any alarms, and I was still frisked. That is the way it should be...We shouldn't be judged on our skin colour or creed, we are supposed to be moving forwards, not backwards...

[beatlelover45223]

[ QUOTE ]
Hari's Chick Posted:
...even for those fitting a specific name, we must remember 'innocent until proven guilty' too. http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

a potential terrorist innocent?, when the police (in the US) pull you over as a suspect in? whatever, they frisk you, then radio your info to the computers, they can even hand-cuff you as a suspect if you fit the profile &amp; put you in the backseat of their cruiser,what's the difference?, while it turns out you were minding your own business, then they tell you sorry,have a nice day, and walk away, embarassing for that person, but they(the police) did their job.

[beatlelover45223]

You know what this past summer in the US, my 80 year old mother was in a long line of people going through security at an airport, all were required to remove their shoes, there were people there with barefeet(which is gross,think of what their feet were exposed too) on concrete because they were wearing sandals,my point is not one person complained, not one person seemed miffed that the line was so long, and it took forever to get through the security, they understood why it was being done, for their own safety,lots of people were also being pulled aside and searched, no one seemed upset by that either, I agree with FP, more security is needed all over the world,these terrorists are down on democracy.

[Hari's Chick]

[ QUOTE ]
beatlelover45223 Posted:
[ QUOTE ]
Hari's Chick Posted:
...even for those fitting a specific name, we must remember 'innocent until proven guilty' too. http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

a potential terrorist innocent?, when the police (in the US) pull you over as a suspect in? whatever, they frisk you, then radio your info to the computers, they can even hand-cuff you as a suspect if you fit the profile &amp; put you in the backseat of their cruiser,what's the difference?, while it turns out you were minding your own business, then they tell you sorry,have a nice day, and walk away, embarassing for that person, but they(the police) did their job.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not know if this is facetious? Not sure...

But anyway, police procedure is what it is, but in an airport it is a stationary place where they can have proper rooms to detain people in a civil way, while any questions are asked. If Joe Smith is a name on a list (on top of being a bit funny...) it would be nice if all the Joe Smith's were given the right of being assumed innocent. Dignity should be a right, yeah?

[beatlelover45223]

[ QUOTE ]
Hari's Chick Posted:
[ QUOTE ]
beatlelover45223 Posted:
[ QUOTE ]
Hari's Chick Posted:
...even for those fitting a specific name, we must remember 'innocent until proven guilty' too. http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

a potential terrorist innocent?, when the police (in the US) pull you over as a suspect in? whatever, they frisk you, then radio your info to the computers, they can even hand-cuff you as a suspect if you fit the profile &amp; put you in the backseat of their cruiser,what's the difference?, while it turns out you were minding your own business, then they tell you sorry,have a nice day, and walk away, embarassing for that person, but they(the police) did their job.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not know if this is facetious? Not sure...

But anyway, police procedure is what it is, but in an airport it is a stationary place where they can have proper rooms to detain people in a civil way, while any questions are asked. If Joe Smith is a name on a list (on top of being a bit funny...) it would be nice if all the Joe Smith's were given the right of being assumed innocent. Dignity should be a right, yeah?

[/ QUOTE ]

no facetious is not my style,sorry you even felt that, I was drawing an analogy. I would assume that Cat Stephens was detained in a private area that you were speaking of above.

[Hari's Chick]

Oh, I did not think you were saying anything in a bad way? I just was not sure if you thought the police thingie was a good thing or a bad thing? Say, doing their jobs...in a good way...or...procedure could be changed? So, yeah, I just was thinking about how in the airport, they can detain you but don't even tell you why? Seems very bad?

But no no...I did not think you were being mean or anything...

[FPSHOT]

Airport security has changed after 9/11. I have travelled by plain a lot and it's different at each airport and yeah I also had to walk barefoot or was searched because I had a pen still in my pocket, or a belt around my waste http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif but when I went to New York, after 9/11, I experienced there was more security checks about people bringing food into the country than bringing 'other things' in.

And yes, especially in the US, e-mail traffic and message board traffic is closely watched. Not only for certain types of porn.

[jtal909]

Absolutely everyone needs to be checked going onto airplanes all over the world nowadays.

But who would be more likely to have a criminal agenda?
A white female from Canada, or an Arab male from the Middle East?

I'm not saying that every Arab male is a criminal, either, just that those are the odds and need to be considered.

[Paolo Meccano]

[ QUOTE ]
jtal909 Posted:
[ QUOTE ]
Paolo Meccano Posted:
[ QUOTE ]
jtal909 Posted:
If there ever was any doubt about his participation in funding Islamic "charities" it is now gone.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not until you offer any proof...

[/ QUOTE ]

That quote was taken out of context.
I said that to me he lost credibility when he skirted the issue when asked why there were anti-Semetic verses in the Koran while he's supposed to be about peace.
Go figure...

[/ QUOTE ]

I, like Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens, didn't address the issue of 'anti-semitic' verses in the Koran as it's not relevant (every religious work can be twisted to the reader's prejudices).

Getting back to the issue of whether Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens directly contributed to Hamas, I ask for proof because there doesn't seem to be any. The only 'evidence' I can find is this passage from a contemporary news report: -

[ QUOTE ]
'He knew before he came here that he would not have permission to come in,' said Moshe Fogel, the government spokesman. 'His interest in Hamas is not purely verbal and in that sense he is not considered a tourist who comes to see the sights.

'We do not feel any obligation to allow people into the country who have in the past shown support for the Hamas terrorist organisation, which is responsible for blowing up buses in the centre of Tel Aviv.'

He would not give details of the alleged support, but said it was 'tangible'.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,343265,00.html

[/ QUOTE ]

Flimsy indeed... Any reasonable person has to ask why, if Israel had definite proof of Yusuf Islam/Cat Stevens supporting Hamas, they've not acted upon it in the fourteen years since... http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[FPSHOT]

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eyebrows.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eyebrows.gif

I have a challange for the coming few days.

Wonder what it is?

Well I'll tell yah http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

The challange is to try to keep any cynical remarks I have in mind from appearing here at Links.

Have a look at this newsstory about "Cat Stevens" , a story from a happening on November 10, 2004 http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Man Of Peace award for Cat Stevens

Singer Yusuf Islam, formerly known as Cat Stevens, has been presented with a Man of Peace award by ex-Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev.

The 57-year-old, who was refused entry to the US on security grounds two months ago, accepted the honour at a ceremony in Rome on Wednesday.

The Gorbachev Foundation said it was for his dedication to promoting peace and condemning terrorism.

Past winners include Italian film director Roberto Benigni.

The award is given annually "to a distinguished personage of culture and entertainment for peace messages, fraternity and integration between nations".

Islam is chairman of Small Kindness, a charity aims to help families in troubled regions including Kosovo, Bosnia, Albania, Montenegro and Iraq.

In September, he was barred entry to the US on "security grounds" after his name appeared on a terrorism "watch list". Islam denies supporting terrorism.

As Cat Stevens, he became known during the 1970s for hits including Wild World and Morning Has Broken.

But he turned his back on his career in 1977, when he coverted to Islam.

In recent years, however, he has returned to performing, and has recorded a version of his 1970 song Father And Son with singer Ronan Keating, which is due for release in the UK before Christmas.

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh5.gif

Way to go, Gorbi http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[jtal909]

Oh no, Not him again!

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[FPSHOT]

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif