Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional???

[SleepyHead]

Lawmakers blast Pledge ruling

SAN FRANCISCO, California (CNN) --"Political correctness run amok" is how one senator is describing a court's ruling that the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional.

A federal appeals court ruled Wednesday that reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools is an unconstitutional "endorsement of religion" because of the addition of the phrase "under God" in 1954 by Congress.

To read the entire story at CNN, please click here:

Lawmakers blast Pledge ruling (http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/06/26/pledge.allegiance/index.html)

To sign the online petition in support of protecting the Pledge, please click here:

Petition (http://www.millionsofamericans.com/clients/moa/pledge_petition/index.cfm?A=753)



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[HeyBeatle]

My gosh when will people stop. It's two words, and if you're in a school like my school was all you have to do is stand and be quiet for a minute if you don't want to say the pledge. I don't recall having a gun held to my head every morning during the pledge so I don't know what these peoples problem is.

It's really beginning to feel like you aren't allowed to be Christian in America anymore.

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Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else is.

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[SleepyHead]

The saddest thing is that this beloved country of ours was founded on "freedom of religion" by God worshippers... I have no wish to dictate to anyone that they HAVE to believe in God to live and breathe here, but the fact is, this is one of the most basic parts of our identity: One Nation, Under God...

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[ChrisG134]

What about the people who want to say it.How come they don't have the right to say what they want to say.If they don't want to say the "Pledge of Alligence" then they don't have to.But if I want to shouldn't I have the right?Freedom of speech!They should find something better to do.Like try to keep the kids safe in school or something.It's pretty sad.

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R.I.P-John & George

[ChrisG134]

The guy who started this whole mess is now tryng to get it off The U.S.Currency too!

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R.I.P-John & George

[Rellevart]

We had to quit saying the pledge in school way back in the early 70's because of this, so it's not news to me. I think cutting it is a bit extreme and/or silly, but then I was brought up to believe in God, so mentioning him from time to time certainly doesn't offend me.

But I guess maybe it would be sort of offensive if you were brought up as an atheist.

Then again, do we really want to live in a country where you can't EVER say ANYTHING without being persecuted for offending someone?

Obviously my thoughts on this whole thing are a little jumbled....

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[FiendishThingie]

Well, we are a nation under God, IMHO. We do have freedom of religion & that's something to be VERY thankful for! Even the freedom to believe in nothing. Isn't that amazing?

I don't care what you call God or which teachers you follow to get there. If you are Christian, you believe in God. If you are Jewish, you believe in God. If you are Muslim, you believe in God. If you are Hindu, you believe in God. If you are Buddist, you believe in God. It doesn't matter which branch of the tree you're on. The line still works for us all.

And if you don't believe in any God, then what's the big deal? What do you care if that line is in there or not? Is it really offensive? It certainly couldn't hurt. It doesn't seem to hurt to tell kids about Santa Claus. (Not comparing God to Santa, mind you.) LOL!

I'm just curious... Why is this world becoming so politically correct. Don't say the line if you don't feel that way. No biggie.

I think if we take God out of the equation, we're only hurting ourselves more. Why take away the Father, the creator? Why take away the One who gives you so many blessings & answers your prayers? That would be sad!

Very interesting... I think I may have to move to another country soon!

FT http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/wink3.gif

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or you're the sultan of Brunei or you're a fabulous Beatle;
it's what's inside that counts." George Harrison

[Rellevart]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By FiendishThingie:
Why is this world becoming so politically correct?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know, but I find it annoying. All the euphemisms are ridiculous....I'm not bleeping "vertically challenged", I'm SHORT.

And in my parents' church, the powers that be are so concerned with not being sexist that they've changed the words to some of the hymns....Christmas carols are the worst..."Good Christian Friends, Rejoice"??? "Peace on the earth, goodwill toward ALL"??? EEEEEESH. I mean, I'm about as staunch a feminist (without being militant) as you're likely to meet, but even I think that's stupid.


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I go back so far, I'm in front of me...

[ChrisG134]

I know what you mean.I'm in the "International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers".And personally it doesn't bother me.As long as the pay me I don't care.

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R.I.P-John & George

[Tim]

under God was not in the original pledge.
It was put in c.1958 under pressure form the Knights of Columbus.

As far as I'm concerned it is mild...the real danger is the Supreme Court forcing me to give my tax money to Religious schools in that horror,vouchers(which is really to get all non-minority students out of the public system once and for all).


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[bearkat77]

I sent many of the members here a link to a petition to uphold the Pledge Of Allegiance, as is. Some wackos are taking "political correctness" way too far. Here a link to an article about this from People.com:
http://people.aol.com/people/news/now/0,10958,266453,00.html

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[**DONOTDELETE**]

If you don't want to say "Under God" then don't. This Atheist guy who doesn't want it, well he obviously doesn't deserve to live in a country this good.

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[HeyBeatle]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By bandontherun:
If you don't want to say "Under God" then don't.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, it isn't like it's all that hard to skip to beats while everyone else says "Under God" and then come back in on the indivisble. Apparently for two months, during my brothers freshman year, at the high school I attended they stopped saying the pledge. It made the news and then after the two month period enough people complained that it was brought back except with the choice to participate or not. Why this school district couldn't have just done that.

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Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else is.

~If you don't mind, I'm going to bed before either of you come up with another idea to get us killed, or worse expelled!
~She needs to sort of her priorities.

[Tim]

The whole odd thing to me is this "The U.S.A. was founded as a Christian Nation" stuff. Most of the Founding Fathers were Deists and Freemasons. In fact,nowhere in General Washington's papers is the name Jesus Christ mentioned. Franklin denied the divinity of Christ,and Jefferson wrote a New Testament that omitted any references to the divinity of Christ.

Like I said,the whole "Under God" thing came into the Pledge in the late 1950's due to politicing by the K of C.

I do have old notes without In God We Trust and it doesn't look odd not seeing it. In fatc,one of our greatest Presidents,Teddy Roosevelt campaigned to get In God We Trust off the coins as he felt it an affront to the Deity.


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[kjrocks_1]

Say it if you want or don't say it... it should be your personal choice. I don't find it offensive, but some people might.
Just because the father's an atheist, maybe the daughter will want to practive religion someday.... who knows


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[**DONOTDELETE**]

I think the government should debate more important matters.

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[EasternBird]

I can understand why some people may not want to say the "under God part," but as others have said, the solution is very simple - when it's time to recite the pledge, just don't say it! I believe the father involved in the lawsuit didn't want his daughter to even have to hear the pledge at school. Well, there's a simple solution for that too - have her stand outside the room while the pledge is recited.

As long as kids aren't forced to recite the pledge (and really, what teacher is going to check to verify that all the kids' lips are moving?) I don't see why the courts need to get involved. It's ridiculous that the issue had to go to such a high court (and maybe even higher), just because some people refuse to practice some common sense.

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[Hari's Chick]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SleepyHead:
To sign the online petition in support of protecting the Pledge, please click here:

Petition (http://www.millionsofamericans.com/clients/moa/pledge_petition/index.cfm?A=753)

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks, Sleepyhead! God should be more celebrated, not less!


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[bearkat77]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By EasternBird:
It's ridiculous that the issue had to go to such a high court (and maybe even higher), just because some people refuse to practice some common sense.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The key words you said, EasternBird, are "common sense". Some people have way too much dollars and no sense.

When I was in school, I was proud that we said the Pledge before class. Why certain people want to separate church and state like this is beyond me.

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[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By bearkat77:
Why certain people want to separate church and state like this is beyond me.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Uhhhhh...maybe because some people don't beLIEVE in the "church" part???



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[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By 4thGenFan:

Uhhhhh...maybe because some people don't beLIEVE in the "church" part???

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jews don't go to "church", neither do Muslims. So, just which part of God belongs strictly in church?

This nation was founded by God-fearers, not atheists. They were activists, certainly, but those seeking to avoid being forced to practice only the religion of their respective countries came here for religious freedom. Yes, others came for other reasons, but the prime reason was freedom of religion: in short, "under God". All recognized a responsibility to worship God, but they objected to being forced to a state religion or state church.

I can promise you that not one nun at Schumpert Medical System will stop wearing her habit, saying her rosary, or attending Mass because over 60% of their patients are not Catholic, and 15% of those profess no faith whatsoever.

Nor shall I skip the grace before meals if I should have non-Catholic or even atheists guests for dinner - when you come into my house, you simply must expect that I will adhere to what I consider a basic part of my being and identity. I wouldn't expect anything Catholic in a non-Catholic house.

A vital part of our national identity is the very freedom of religion under fire today - not "freedom FROM religion". We have nitpicked and pc'd this country to death. It's time to start saying "Stop! Stop changing our home everytime someone living in it doesn't like it!"

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[**DONOTDELETE**]

Imagine if people stopped arguing so fiercely about this and concentrated on more pressing issues, like starving, underprivileged children...

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[Amalthea]

I don't understand why you people can be tollerant about other religions (even if about that there'd be so much to discussa bout too), but hey! if you're atheist that's worse then being the devil himself. Freedom from religion, that's it, and I am proud to have that.

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"Because there wasn't any reason left to keep it all inside"
- Paul McCartney, 1982

[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By 4thGenFan:
Imagine if people stopped arguing so fiercely about this and concentrated on more pressing issues, like starving, underprivileged children...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hate to burden you with reality, here, but if my roof starts caving in, the very last thing on my mind is the state of my refrigerator. I've got to grab my family, and preserve them from the demolishment of their home.

These United States are our home, and some nitpicking pc'er with more time and money on his hands than Carter has little liver pills has attacked one of the foundations of our very nation, and you want to stop to eat? The food I put in front of my children comes from the grocery store down the street, who has it delivered from factories and farms all over the country. The ability of these businesses, farms, and factories to continue providing these groceries, and the ability of my employer to continue to keep me in his employ depends directly on this country's ability to keep our country going.

A house divided against itself cannot stand, and if you will take the 60 seconds necessary to read just the last paragraph of The Declaration of Independence, you will see that reliance upon the protection of God and acknowledgment of this selfsame God as Supreme Judge of the entire world were very basic in the formation of our country. Attempting to interpret freedom from a state religion (specifically cited in the Constitution as opposed to the more "pc" and generic "freedom of religion") as abolishing God from it's processes or even as it's Ultimate Judge is plainly wrong:

"We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."



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[Amalthea]

Plus let me add, that laic state is something different, and it's the basis of any democracy.

Laic means that church and state has got to be different institutions. There has to be a condemn for every religious/ideologic integralism. There has to be a difference between religion and politic ideology, between faith and govern issues. Freedom of state is its autonomy... without unique values or reveled truth (it's fundamental the critic ability of citizens). I could go on forever with this...

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"Because there wasn't any reason left to keep it all inside"
- Paul McCartney, 1982

[This Message Has Been Edited By Amalthea On June 28, 2002 03:38 AM]

[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Amalthea:
I don't understand why you people can be tollerant about other religions (even if about that there'd be so much to discussa bout too), but hey! if you're atheist that's worse then being the devil himself. Freedom from religion, that's it, and I am proud to have that.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Other than the overwhelming sadness I feel for anyone who acknowledges absolutely no Divine Authority at all, my stance on everyone's freedom to practice or not to practice religion remains the same. We each of us have that right. But in asserting one's rights, one must never shove himself into someone else's home and declare that homeowner's beliefs to be invalid.

This "home" of ours, the United States of America, declared it's independence from Great Britain only after submitting it's intentions to it's God, the Supreme Judge of the world, and did not do so without invoking the protection of that selfsame God.

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[Rellevart]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SleepyHead:
But in asserting one's rights, one must never shove himself into someone else's home and declare that homeowner's beliefs to be invalid.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn't agree with you more on this particular point.

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I go back so far, I'm in front of me...

[Rellevart]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By 4thGenFan:
I think the government should debate more important matters.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. I mean, I guess the way some people look at it is that removing the Pledge is the first step in our country galloping to moral ruin, so this debate is VITALLY IMPORTANT. When I was a child, however, I wasn't standing in school repeating the Pledge and being filled with patriotic fervor....it was just some dumb words we had to get up and say every morning. I don't think not saying it will turn every school kid into a juvenile delinquent or anything. I think what his/her parents teach him at home about morality, patriotism and religion are WAY more important than reciting some tired words in class every morning.

But again, that's just my opinion and I do really respect everyone else's. I think it's cool that we can have political and/or religious debates where we don't all agree and it still never turns into mud-slinging. http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

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I go back so far, I'm in front of me...

[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Tim:
Like I said,the whole "Under God" thing came into the Pledge in the late 1950's due to politicing by the K of C.

I do have old notes without In God We Trust and it doesn't look odd not seeing it. In fatc,one of our greatest Presidents,Teddy Roosevelt campaigned to get In God We Trust off the coins as he felt it an affront to the Deity.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The whole "under God" thing is laced indelibly in almost every declaration of our country's since it's inception:

The Mayflower Compact
"In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of England, France and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, e&.

Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia..."

Declaration of the Causes and Necessity
of Taking Up Arms

"July 6, 1775
A declaration by the representatives of the united colonies of North
America, now met in Congress at Philadelphia, setting forth the causes and
necessity of their taking up arms.
If it was possible for men, who exercise their reason to believe, that
the divine Author of our existence intended a part of the human race to hold an
absolute property in, and an unbounded power over others, marked out by his
infinite goodness and wisdom, as the objects of a legal domination never
rightfully resistible, however severe and oppressive, the inhabitants of these
colonies might at least require from the parliament of Great-Britain some
evidence, that this dreadful authority over them, has been granted to that body.
But a reverance for our Creator, principles of humanity, and the dictates of
common sense, must convince all those who reflect upon the subject, that
government was instituted to promote the welfare of mankind, and ought to be
administered for the attainment of that end."


The Articles of Confederation
"... And Whereas it hath pleased the Great Governor of the World to incline
the hearts of the legislatures we respectively represent in Congress, to approve
of, and to authorize us to ratify the said Articles of Confederation and
perpetual Union... In Witness whereof we have hereunto set our hands in Congress.
Done at Philadelphia in the State of Pennsylvania the ninth day of July in the
Year of our Lord One Thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy-Eight, and in the Third
Year of the independence of America."

First Inaugural Address of
President George Washington

"April 30, 1789
Fellow-Citizens of the Senate and of the House of Representatives...

Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the
public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper
to omit in this first official act my fervent supplications to that Almighty
Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and
whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may
consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a
Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes, and may
enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success
the functions allotted to his charge. In tendering this homage to the Great
Author of every public and private good, I assure my self that it expresses your
sentiments not less than my own, nor those of my fellow-citizens at large less
than either. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand
which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States. Every
step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems
to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency; and in the
important revolution just accomplished in the system of their united government
the tran quil deliberations and voluntary consent of so many distinct
communities from which the event has resulted can not be compared with the means
by which most governments have been established without some return of pious
gratitude, along with an humble anticipation of the future blessings which the
past seem to presage. These reflections, arising out of the present crisis, have
forced themselves too strongly on my mind to be suppressed. You will join with
me, I trust, in thinking that there are none under the influence of which the
proceedings of a new and free government can more auspiciously commence."

Farewell Address of President George Washington
Sept. 17, 1796
"Though, in reviewing the incidents of my administration, I am
unconscious of intentional error, I am nevertheless too sensible of my defects
not to think it probable that I may have committed many errors. Whatever they
may be, I fervently beseech the Almighty to avert or mitigate the evils to which
they may tend..."

Since before we were even a nation, we were intended to be a Christian colony - beholden to God for our protection and to Him as well for the bases of our laws. To declare ourselves "free" of God now is to spit in His face, and in the faces of our forefathers who trusted implicitly in Him when forming this nation.

Although I have yet to thoroughly comb the other articles and addresses, I have discovered that the phrase "under God" comes into our national history no later than the Gettysburg Address by our own beloved President Abraham Lincoln.

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[PaulisMine]

Please note that this covers only the states that are in this particular district, not the entire country.
As far as removing "so help me god" from the oath the Presidents take,(this was in the article) they may ask to have that removed if they so choose. Just as people may choose not to swear on a Bible before they go into court.
From what I understand, the court is looking at the pledge as if it is a prayer, am I correct?
I find it intolerable that this particular incident is an issue of separation of church and state,and yet the voucher issue is not? Huh? I find it incredibly offensive that MY tax dollars are going to support religious schools.


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Every night I just want to go out,
get out of my head.
Every day I don't want to get up,
get out of my bed.

[This Message Has Been Edited By PaulisMine On June 28, 2002 06:36 AM]

[Tim]

I agree with you PaulIsMine. I find the whole voucher issue intolerable,as I would find a tuition tax credit for sending peopel to Catholic schools.

Like i said,Under God was not in the Pledge until 1958--I have old books with the words not in it.

The problem is,there are too many people in the USA who want it declared that Christianity is the State Religion, and that all must acknowledge it.

Europe is right in rejecting it...just like I don't care for Bush trying from what i hear to supress Neo-Paganism(which i happen to be part of...I am proud to be a Pagan).

The problem is there never has been true religious tolerance here...after all,well until after the end of the Revolution,Catholics could openly practice only in Maryland,and most other Colonies had only one accepted Church as well. The settlers in jamestown and Plymouth were for Freedom of Religion--THEIR religion and no other one.

All must understand...if 1 does not say Under God it does get noticed, then the child get forced through peer pressure to have to say it.

Also, I have never liked Christianity's constantly trying to supress non-Christian religios though,whether it be throguh the Crusades,the Inquisition or other methods. I also get sick of the attacks on Pagan/New Age stuff,as well as all the anti-Muslim rhetoric since 9/11.

The origins of the Pledge as well as the flag fetish Americans have,was due to rreaction against immigration in the 1890's,as the Protstant majority fearded all of the Catholic immigrants coming in(as well as the Jewish ones),so used the Pledge to try to make them "good Americans"(i.e. the Catholics were going to give the USA to the Pope otherwise).

------------------
Tim
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[Amalthea]

I thought I would have said something more about the laic state, what it does mean... we've got the same problem, our state is officially laic, but church interfers with everything (yeah, they want our taxes money for their school, which are not public, too)

The laic state is for the autonomy and the pluralism of the state (in Italy - I don't know if there too, but it seems that public opinion is pretty strong, by religious comminities - we've got way too many interfercences by church hierarchies), is for the regeneration of the public school without any direct (or indirect) financial help to the confessional schools.

The laic Italy, and as well, the laic USA (does it ring a bell if I say that there's a difference between laic and atheist?) laic whatever, believes that the civil cohabitation is based on the critical spirt of every citizen, 1) who is in this way able to see and condemn (I already said that) every integralism, may it be a religious or ideologic one 2) who is determinied to respect and defend the rules of tolerance and dialogue 3) who doesn't confound between religion and politics, between faith and politics 4) who knows that the freedom of every state is its autonomy 5) who finds horrible wanting to impose, especially on the new generations, values and revealed truths 6) who would like that the over 18 people would be able to choose their own morality and their relationships 6) who would like that to the under 18 people aren't imposed nor by the state, the family, the churches, visions of the world which are totalitary and univocal, visions that are able to condition his future strongly 7) who believes that the single person should have the freedom to express, to coltivate his personality, without any bond if not those which comes either from the other's freedom than from the obligation to promote it, guarantee it, defend it.

In Italy the situation is very bad, we've got clerical revendications, open interferences on the public powers, and we're risking that, for this sorf of neocinism we're living with, our constitution is getting run over by firm and medieval conceptions... we're modern states, aren't we? The principle of a modern state, that one who save us from religious wars and guaranteed the freedom, is the distinction between law and morality. And what that's guy is trying to fight for, is exactly this.

Sorry for my bad english, but it was difficoult to write this.

------------------
"Because there wasn't any reason left to keep it all inside"
- Paul McCartney, 1982

[Tim]

I understood you perfectly,Carola!

The lay state is the way it should be,not like England with C of E,or what you have in the Middle East(I condemn Isreal and the Arab states equally on the religious matter).

The whole point of the First Amendment was there was to be no state religion or restraints on political speech. Sadly most on the political right (and this especially includes the Religious Right) want amendamnts to the Constitution banning the Burning of the flag and requiring Christian prayers in the public schools as wella s the stuff you have to swear in effect an allegiance to God every morning.

I do find the situation in places like Italy and Ireland intolerable with the religiosos interfering with the public workings of the state.

------------------
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[PaulisMine]

Great post Amalt, and I understood what you were saying!
I happen to think this whole thing is a case of "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"... we debate and get up in arms over the pledge (that means little to children, speaking as one who had to say the pledge each day, I didn't get anything from it) while things that are so much worse are going on all around us that we don't pay any attention to.


------------------
Every night I just want to go out,
get out of my head.
Every day I don't want to get up,
get out of my bed.

[mindgames]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Tim:
As far as I'm concerned it is mild...the real danger is the Supreme Court forcing me to give my tax money to Religious schools in that horror,vouchers(which is really to get all non-minority students out of the public system once and for all).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting. In Michigan do you have taxes that help out private colleges? It seems to be the same thing to me. We pay a tax to support all higher learning, private or public.


------------------
So glad to be back.

[mindgames]

And anyway, I'd rather have a religious state than an athiest one.

------------------
So glad to be back.

[Rellevart]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By mindgames:
And anyway, I'd rather have a religious state than an athiest one.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why can't we just have one that's just tolerant of all beliefs (or lack thereof, I suppose) without imposing any?

------------------
I go back so far, I'm in front of me...

[PaulisMine]

I always thought that private colleges didn't get any tax money, and that was why they were so much more expensive that public universities. I could be wrong, but here in Texas only public universities are supported by tax dollars.


------------------
Every night I just want to go out,
get out of my head.
Every day I don't want to get up,
get out of my bed.

[Tim]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By mindgames:
And anyway, I'd rather have a religious state than an athiest one.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
To me,there is no difference between how the conservative Christian want(i.e. offical sanction of their form of Christianity) and something like the Mullahs.

The only free state is a non-sectarian state. There is no need for official sanction of any beleif system...State sponsorship of religion is wrong. The state should not support religionious institutions in any way,and yes it includes Christianm-onlty Nativity scenes...I do not subscribe to Christanity,and I do not want to be made to feel less of a citizen because of it. Because,Daniel and others,when there is a State sanctioned religion and you are not of it,you are turned by the State into an outsider.


------------------
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[Amalthea]

Tim, you've got all my support http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

------------------
"Because there wasn't any reason left to keep it all inside"
- Paul McCartney, 1982

[LennonLegend83]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By HeyBeatle:
It's really beginning to feel like you aren't allowed to be Christian in America anymore.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. The guy who said this is just trying to make a quick buck. Why is he saying something now using his child as an excuse? If it really bothered him that much then I think he would have said something more soon to the Government. And the guy should have known that this would piss most of the American public off because of the refound patriotism in this country. Congress just needs to focus on more important matter's in the U.S. and I think they all agree on that.



------------------
Love is a promise, love is a souvenir, once given never forgotten, never let it disappear.
-John Lennon

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By 4thGenFan:
Imagine if people stopped arguing so fiercely about this and concentrated on more pressing issues, like starving, underprivileged children...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even if they take out "Under God," I'm sure most people would still say it, so why not just stop this ruling thing and do more important stuff, like you said?

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[**DONOTDELETE**]

Good point. I'm so annoyed at this stuff from Enron, MCI-WorldCom, and now Xerox. Whatever happened to honesty? Let's solve these matters before we do anything over two words.

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[Amalthea]

This all makes me feel really really sad, to see this all. Just I wanted to add this.

------------------
"Because there wasn't any reason left to keep it all inside"
- Paul McCartney, 1982

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Amalthea:
Plus let me add, that laic state is something different, and it's the basis of any democracy.

Laic means that church and state has got to be different institutions. There has to be a condemn for every religious/ideologic integralism. There has to be a difference between religion and politic ideology, between faith and govern issues. Freedom of state is its autonomy... without unique values or reveled truth (it's fundamental the critic ability of citizens). I could go on forever with this...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I don't know what you just said, but.....http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/clap2.gif!!

Kidding, I love you. You are amazing. I completely agree with you on this topic.


------------------

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SleepyHead:
I hate to burden you with reality, here, but if my roof starts caving in, the very last thing on my mind is the state of my refrigerator. I've got to grab my family, and preserve them from the demolishment of their home.

These United States are our home, and some nitpicking pc'er with more time and money on his hands than Carter has little liver pills has attacked one of the foundations of our very nation, and you want to stop to eat? The food I put in front of my children comes from the grocery store down the street, who has it delivered from factories and farms all over the country. The ability of these businesses, farms, and factories to continue providing these groceries, and the ability of my employer to continue to keep me in his employ depends directly on this country's ability to keep our country going.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


And that has WHAT to do with the Pledge Of Allegiance again?...

My point is that at least your kids HAVE food to eat. Rather than worry about whether or not two words are kept in or out of the constitution, maybe we fortunate Americans could spend more time helping out those not so fortunate.

I bet some starving, skin-and-bones child in Somalia right now isn't thinking, "I'm so glad people lucky enough to have food are debating the Pledge Of Allegiance today in America. I can sleep well while the maggots crawl on top of me."

Anyway, as much as I love God, I doubt He cares more about His name being in a pledge than he does about one of His innocent children starving to death.




------------------

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SleepyHead:
We each of us have that right.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


"we each of us"?


------------------


[This Message Has Been Edited By 4thGenFan On June 28, 2002 06:32 PM]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SleepyHead:

This "home" of ours, the United States of America, declared it's independence from Great Britain only after submitting it's intentions to it's God<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Uhhh...its even?


------------------

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Sleepy,
I believe we rebelled from Britain for religious freedom, which means that we technically did not leave for God. It meant we left so we wouldn't have to listen to Britain's religious ruling. That means we could've left if we wanted to praise Krishna or be an atheist. I don't agree with anyone dropping it, but we did not come for God, we came for all religions.

------------------
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[**DONOTDELETE**]

I'm hoarse from cheering your post, botr.


(for real, this time http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif )

------------------

[marmalade skye]

I've been saying my lefty views till blue in the face, so I'll sum it up.

*God wasn't originally in there.

*God belongs nowhere in school. Anywhere else, sure! But, in a public school, it's a violation of seperation of church and state.

*Isn't the pledge in school a waste of time anyways? Kids dont listen to the words, or think about what it means. By saying it so repetively, we're doing it a diservice because nobody appreciates it. I think that instead of repeating the same words daily, kids in school should learn about people and events that aren't necessairly in their textbooks.

Buuuuuuut, I believe that athiests can say God, and think of something else, by just using the word as a symbol for something else they believe in strongly.

*stumbles off her podium*

------------------
I'd be quite prepared for that eventuality.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By 4thGenFan:

And that has WHAT to do with the Pledge Of Allegiance again?...

My point is that at least your kids HAVE food to eat. Rather than worry about whether or not two words are kept in or out of the constitution, maybe we fortunate Americans could spend more time helping out those not so fortunate.

I bet some starving, skin-and-bones child in Somalia right now isn't thinking, "I'm so glad people lucky enough to have food are debating the Pledge Of Allegiance today in America. I can sleep well while the maggots crawl on top of me."

Anyway, as much as I love God, I doubt He cares more about His name being in a pledge than he does about one of His innocent children starving to death.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most people would say His name still. I'm proud to say that I help sponsor a little girl in Guatemala whose family is poor. I have sent old blankets, money for food, etc. The only thing I've gotten from her family is a picture of her smiling and eating rice. And that's more important to me than two words.

------------------
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[marmalade skye]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By 4thGenFan:
I'm hoarse from cheering your post, botr.


(for real, this time http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif )

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seriously! *bows to bandy*



------------------
I'd be quite prepared for that eventuality.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By marmalade skye:
*God belongs nowhere in school. Anywhere else, sure! But, in a public school, it's a violation of seperation of church and state.

*Isn't the pledge in school a waste of time anyways? Kids dont listen to the words, or think about what it means. By saying it so repetively, we're doing it a diservice because nobody appreciates it. I think that instead of repeating the same words daily, kids in school should learn about people and events that aren't necessairly in their textbooks.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What schools should do is just have a minute of silence. You can say the Pledge if you want, you can pray, or nothing. But it's not going against anyone IMHO.

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[**DONOTDELETE**]

Aww, thanks.http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/blush1.gif

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[Hari's Chick]

Somewhere anyway I read that everyone has a God..or god. I mean it's either a Christian God or Eastern God, whatever...but even the aetheist has a god of some sort, perhaps his/her own self, or money, or perhaps the notion of aetheism itself???
I understand Amalthea's very articulate comments...wow! But, I just think getting too cerebrial w/o an intuitive factor as well is dangerous. It may be interesting to comb through history and see which society's were more compassionate, those who espoused theism or aetheism....separation (down to the gnats eye) of church and state or a delicate combination of the two. Compassion and love are what would (& should) be most important.

------------------
Caryl Starling of the Muppets walks over and presents Arias with a stuffed replica of Kermit the frog. "Look, he's doing one of our meditation techniques," Arias says, sitting Kermit in the Lotus position and placing his hands over his eyes. "He's blissed-out."

[HeyBeatle]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By bandontherun:
Sleepy,
I believe we rebelled from Britain for religious freedom, which means that we technically did not leave for God. It meant we left so we wouldn't have to listen to Britain's religious ruling. That means we could've left if we wanted to praise Krishna or be an atheist. I don't agree with anyone dropping it, but we did not come for God, we came for all religions.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll probably be thrown on the coals for this but someone has to back up Sleepy. When it comes down to why our forefathers came to America they came to for freedom of religion but that was freedom of christian religion. It has expanded to include all the other religions but that was what the original purpose was New England was home to the Puritans, Mid East coast was home to Quakers, and Maryland was to be a haven for catholics. I know that basically no one will agree with me on this but someone had to back up Sleepyhead.



------------------
Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else is.

~If you don't mind, I'm going to bed before either of you come up with another idea to get us killed, or worse expelled!
~She needs to sort of her priorities.

[Hari's Chick]

Stepping away from ideologies and being more personal....the public schools I went to had many more serious problems. I mean, in Jr High kids were having "wild times" in the girls bathroom! Geez....I wished they were God fearing or anything else at that moment!!!!

------------------
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[HeyBeatle]

I don't know how much longer this will go before we start some internet brawl.

Isn't there some old adage about not discussing politics and something else amongst friends since both are such personal things?

------------------
Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else is.

~If you don't mind, I'm going to bed before either of you come up with another idea to get us killed, or worse expelled!
~She needs to sort of her priorities.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By HeyBeatle:
freedom of christian religion
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That contradicts itself sort of. If they were all coming so they could practice one religion, that's not a freedom. That is a rule. I know, there's more than one Christian religion, but if you have to follow Christian rules, I don't classify that as freedom.

I don't mean to argue, but just my take on this.

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[This Message Has Been Edited By bandontherun On June 28, 2002 07:13 PM]

[HeyBeatle]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By bandontherun:
That contradicts itself sort of. If they were all coming so they could practice one religion, that's not a freedom. That is a rule. I know, there's more than one Christian religion, but if you have to follow Christian rules, I don't classify that as freedom.

I don't mean to argue, but just my take on this.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know it doesn't make sense but let's face it what does when it comes to politics. The thing is that you have to think as a man in the 1700's the only religions practiced around you that you know of and except are based off of christian doctrines. Thus "Freedom of christian religion" is freedom to practice all of those doctrines that you except. And if you really think about the mind set of a person in the 1700's if there had been a group of islamic people in America when this was written do you think they would have excepted that? They didn't except the Native Americans and "witches" for being different.

You have to view the past taking in to account the morals and beliefs of the day.

------------------
Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else is.

~If you don't mind, I'm going to bed before either of you come up with another idea to get us killed, or worse expelled!
~She needs to sort of her priorities.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

The only way I can see "free" in that situation is that they are free from what Britain has pushed upon them. They really didn't have a choice, or if they did, the "witches" would not have been hung.

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[HeyBeatle]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By bandontherun:
The only way I can see "free" in that situation is that they are free from what Britain has pushed upon them. They really didn't have a choice, or if they did, the "witches" would not have been hung.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent grasshopper, you are beginning to understand what that freedom meant to them way back when.

------------------
Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else is.

~If you don't mind, I'm going to bed before either of you come up with another idea to get us killed, or worse expelled!
~She needs to sort of her priorities.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By bandontherun:
Most people would say His name still. I'm proud to say that I help sponsor a little girl in Guatemala whose family is poor. I have sent old blankets, money for food, etc. The only thing I've gotten from her family is a picture of her smiling and eating rice. And that's more important to me than two words.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oh you are so cute! You're awesome http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif


------------------

[Tim]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By HeyBeatle:
I know it doesn't make sense but let's face it what does when it comes to politics. The thing is that you have to think as a man in the 1700's the only religions practiced around you that you know of and except are based off of christian doctrines. Thus "Freedom of christian religion" is freedom to practice all of those doctrines that you except. And if you really think about the mind set of a person in the 1700's if there had been a group of islamic people in America when this was written do you think they would have excepted that? They didn't except the Native Americans and "witches" for being different.

You have to view the past taking in to account the morals and beliefs of the day.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Never mind without Jewish Haym Solomon's financing the Revolution would have died out...the Revolution was over the colonists no longer wishing British politcal rule. However,the colonies were also worse than the Inquisition to those poor women in Salem in 1692. All Christians should be ashamed of themselves over the Burnings.



------------------
Tim
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[**DONOTDELETE**]

Uhhh...even the Christians that weren't even born yet?

------------------

[darkhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By bandontherun:
Most people would say His name still. I'm proud to say that I help sponsor a little girl in Guatemala whose family is poor. I have sent old blankets, money for food, etc. The only thing I've gotten from her family is a picture of her smiling and eating rice. And that's more important to me than two words.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>God, you're incredible. http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif That's incredibly compassive of you. My humble congratulations.



------------------
"Take my smile and my heart, they were yours from the start
The pieces to omit are mine" ~ George, 1987

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By bandontherun:
Aww, thanks.http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/blush1.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



------------------
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[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Tim:
Never mind without Jewish Haym Solomon's financing the Revolution would have died out...the Revolution was over the colonists no longer wishing British politcal rule. However,the colonies were also worse than the Inquisition to those poor women in Salem in 1692. All Christians should be ashamed of themselves over the Burnings.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm Christian, but while I think what they did was wrong, I'm not going to be ashamed of myself because I had no part in any of it.

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[HeyBeatle]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By bandontherun:
I'm Christian, but while I think what they did was wrong, I'm not going to be ashamed of myself because I had no part in any of it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to agree with that, that is like people saying every American should be ashamed because of what was done to the Native Americans. I think what happened was wrong but I personally refuse to feel ashamed for anyone except those that commited the atrocities long ago.

------------------
Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else is.

~If you don't mind, I'm going to bed before either of you come up with another idea to get us killed, or worse expelled!
~She needs to sort of her priorities.

[ImaginePeace78]

The words "Under God" have been in the Pledge of Allegance (sp) for approximately fifty years! Why make a fuss over it now? Was there such as fuss over adding the words to it fifty years ago? I wonder....
I also wonder when the first time this whole thing came about...how many years after it was added, when did someone say that it was "unconstitutional"? And what was the general response? The same as now? Does anyone have an answer?
But really, for those who do not like or want the words "Under God" in the Pledge, all they have to do is, when they recite it, *skip* the two words! Simple as that.
-Kristi

------------------
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[Amalthea]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By bandontherun:
If you don't want to say "Under God" then don't. This Atheist guy who doesn't want it, well he obviously doesn't deserve to live in a country this good.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Didn't notice this before... did you mean really what you said??


------------------
"Because there wasn't any reason left to keep it all inside"
- Paul McCartney, 1982

[Hari's Chick]

The day that the word God is removed from all public/government sponsored messages will be one sad day. If someone is an aetheist, just don't say the pledge! Why feel threatened by it? Would it represent the only or biggest inconsistency in their child's life?
Like George said, people can use swearwords (well, not in the pledge...yet!) and folks don't think twice, but mention God and everyone gets all shakey. Before we remove God from government, why not work to remove the greed instead?

------------------
Caryl Starling of the Muppets walks over and presents Arias with a stuffed replica of Kermit the frog. "Look, he's doing one of our meditation techniques," Arias says, sitting Kermit in the Lotus position and placing his hands over his eyes. "He's blissed-out."

[HeyBeatle]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By ImaginePeace78:
But really, for those who do not like or want the words "Under God" in the Pledge, all they have to do is, when they recite it, *skip* the two words! Simple as that.
-Kristi

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Definitely it was the only way that our school district resolved this when it came up 4-5 years ago and I think it's the only way it will be resolved now. Make the pledge nonmandatory and just have those who don't wish to pledge/pledge under god just stand and be quiet or skip two words.


------------------
Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else is.

~If you don't mind, I'm going to bed before either of you come up with another idea to get us killed, or worse expelled!
~She needs to sort of her priorities.

[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By 4thGenFan:
And that has WHAT to do with the Pledge Of Allegiance again?...

My point is that at least your kids HAVE food to eat. Rather than worry about whether or not two words are kept in or out of the constitution, maybe we fortunate Americans could spend more time helping out those not so fortunate.

I bet some starving, skin-and-bones child in Somalia right now isn't thinking, "I'm so glad people lucky enough to have food are debating the Pledge Of Allegiance today in America. I can sleep well while the maggots crawl on top of me."

Anyway, as much as I love God, I doubt He cares more about His name being in a pledge than he does about one of His innocent children starving to death.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How many starving kids in the middle east did you feel sorry for on Sept. 11th? How many did you send money to? Did you even think of them? I saw quite a few posts, heard lots of comments, and was blasted many times for showing any sign of compassion for any Muslim whatsoever in the aftermath of Sept. 11th.

No, I was not blasted by family members, personal friends, or even nodding acquaintances of those who died that day. I was blasted by those whose "house" of America had been attacked, and who were busily trying their best to re-stack the tumbled stones of their lives.

Our national identity is part and parcel of who each of us are. If you strike at someone's identity, you've done more harm to them than the mere withholding of a meal.

When you have children of your own, I'll consider having the discussion of whether or not where your children live is as important as whether or not someone you don't know is getting fed. And while on the topic, we have as many, maybe more children right here in good ole America who don't eat, either. Some live on the streets, others have no clothing, others haven't even a family to call their own. Take care of your own, first, and stop cramming every Tom, Dick, and Harry down my throat. I make a whopping $5.50 an hour, and I have more immediately vital concerns on my hands.

While I agree in fact, that all of God's children are entitled to eat and have a roof over their heads, I must attend to the needs of my own children first. And that includes whether or not I stand back and let some yahoo take potshots at one of our national symbols, endorsed by our government, and amended by our congress. Taking cheap shots like the ones you've just taken just endorse the idea that nothing really matters.

If who you are doesn't matter, then nothing you do will, either.

------------------
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[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By bandontherun:
Sleepy,
I believe we rebelled from Britain for religious freedom, which means that we technically did not leave for God. It meant we left so we wouldn't have to listen to Britain's religious ruling. That means we could've left if we wanted to praise Krishna or be an atheist. I don't agree with anyone dropping it, but we did not come for God, we came for all religions.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Either pay more attention in history class, or go read the Declaration of Independence for yourself.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was their very belief in God that gave them the idea that in order to have a more perfect place to live, declaring their independence was necessary. Their firm, unshakeable belief in God, Himself, convinced them of our "rights", and further convinced them that those rights cannot be usurped by any government whatsoever. They did NOT fight for freedom NOT to believe in God, but for the freedom to live as they believed God intended. You cannot separate man from his beliefs. This IS the reason this country exists. No one, at any time, rebelled against anything without a firm belief that they KNOW better than the ones they are rebelling against.

This knowledge behind our own separation from Great Britain was knowledge of God and knowledge of our rights as God's children. Early American history testifies that what we call "freedom of religion" today has no basis in the reality of what took place in 1777 or in the years that followed. Indeed, for any true believer in anything, no such thing as "freedom of religion" can really exist.

If you really and truly believe that your way is the right way, you (by definition) believe that all other ways are inherently the wrong way. Holding a thing to be true, it is always and everywhere your bounden duty to strive to make that reality a true reality for all you believe to be directly affected by that reality.

All systems of belief come with built-in rules and regulations. Most Christians find theirs in the Bible. Jews find theirs in the Torah and the Talmud. Mormons use 2 books, Muslims use the Koran. Each system has very definite do's and don'ts and omitting any of them means you don't truly believe in what you profess.

To our founding fathers, belief in God wasn't a "do it or not" thing, but a reality. This nation, under God, exists because of that belief. It is not for us to change our identity because of those we've opened the doors to - it is for those who come in our door to accept this as part of our national identity.

Living in Muslim territory would not make me Muslim, but by making my choice to live there, I could not call that territory anything but Muslim. Living in a Jewish home would not make me Jewish, but nothing I can do can change the fact that the home I'm living in is Jewish. Coming into my home will not make you Catholic, and even if you stayed here a million years, as long as any of my descendants remain Catholic, my home remains Catholic.

This country was founded by God-fearers, and that makes this country a God-fearing country. As long as God-fearers live here, no one else can come in and change that identity.

------------------
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[Amalthea]

Gee, haven't read so many 'god' in just one post!

------------------
"Because there wasn't any reason left to keep it all inside"
- Paul McCartney, 1982

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Amalthea:

Didn't notice this before... did you mean really what you said??


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, not really. But if he doesn't like the pledge, he can leave the country or something.

------------------
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[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SleepyHead:
How many starving kids in the middle east did you feel sorry for on Sept. 11th? How many did you send money to? Did you even think of them? I saw quite a few posts, heard lots of comments, and was blasted many times for showing any sign of compassion for any Muslim whatsoever in the aftermath of Sept. 11th.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The bombing in Afghanistan was a result of 9/11. President Bush asked us to send in money for kids in Afghanistan and I think a lot of people did that. And I felt very sorry for the Muslims after 9/11 because everyone was blaming it on all of them. In my city, they set fire to a Muslim church, with about 50 people inside. And they had nothing to do with the attacks. I think that's enough reason to feel sorry for them.

------------------
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[darkhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Amalthea:
Freedom from religion, that's it, and I am proud to have that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Me too. A similar thing was debated in Chile for awhile, the laic state, and its separation from the Church and all that... but it was in... let me see... 1880. My ignorance of course had me thinking that the same applied to the USA, but "seems I'm wrong again".



------------------
"Take my smile and my heart, they were yours from the start
The pieces to omit are mine" ~ George, 1987

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SleepyHead:
It was their very belief in God that gave them the idea that in order to have a more perfect place to live, declaring their independence was necessary. Their firm, unshakeable belief in God, Himself, convinced them of our "rights", and further convinced them that those rights cannot be usurped by any government whatsoever. They did NOT fight for freedom NOT to believe in God, but for the freedom to live as they believed God intended. You cannot separate man from his beliefs. This IS the reason this country exists. No one, at any time, rebelled against anything without a firm belief that they KNOW better than the ones they are rebelling against.

This knowledge behind our own separation from Great Britain was knowledge of God and knowledge of our rights as God's children. Early American history testifies that what we call "freedom of religion" today has no basis in the reality of what took place in 1777 or in the years that followed. Indeed, for any true believer in anything, no such thing as "freedom of religion" can really exist.

If you really and truly believe that your way is the right way, you (by definition) believe that all other ways are inherently the wrong way. Holding a thing to be true, it is always and everywhere your bounden duty to strive to make that reality a true reality for all you believe to be directly affected by that reality.

All systems of belief come with built-in rules and regulations. Most Christians find theirs in the Bible. Jews find theirs in the Torah and the Talmud. Mormons use 2 books, Muslims use the Koran. Each system has very definite do's and don'ts and omitting any of them means you don't truly believe in what you profess.

To our founding fathers, belief in God wasn't a "do it or not" thing, but a reality. This nation, under God, exists because of that belief. It is not for us to change our identity because of those we've opened the doors to - it is for those who come in our door to accept this as part of our national identity.

Living in Muslim territory would not make me Muslim, but by making my choice to live there, I could not call that territory anything but Muslim. Living in a Jewish home would not make me Jewish, but nothing I can do can change the fact that the home I'm living in is Jewish. Coming into my home will not make you Catholic, and even if you stayed here a million years, as long as any of my descendants remain Catholic, my home remains Catholic.

This country was founded by God-fearers, and that makes this country a God-fearing country. As long as God-fearers live here, no one else can come in and change that identity.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was their God back then. They had two choices: stay in Britain and be a Protestant or come to America and you have to become a Christian. Otherwise you were put to death. I believe that Tim said our founding fathers were not Christian. Why weren't they put to death? That shows that you could practice any religion and it's ok.

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[LennonLegend83]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By bandontherun:
I'm Christian, but while I think what they did was wrong, I'm not going to be ashamed of myself because I had no part in any of it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same here.



------------------
Love is a promise, love is a souvenir, once given never forgotten, never let it disappear.
-John Lennon

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SleepyHead:


While I agree in fact, that all of God's children are entitled to eat and have a roof over their heads, I must attend to the needs of my own children first.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The "needs" of your children include having two words in the Pledge Of Allegiance?


------------------

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SleepyHead:

This country was founded by God-fearers, and that makes this country a God-fearing country. As long as God-fearers live here, no one else can come in and change that identity.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Not everyone is a God-fearer.



------------------

[mindgames]

I always have trouble understanding this freedom of religion thing. That is probably because of my lack of perspective. I've never met a person who was non-Protestant, so I don't really understand the big fuss. I was about 13 when, in geography class, we learned that Hindus consider the Ganges River sacred. I asked "Why? The Bible doesn't mention it." I was then told that not all people believe in the Bible, a real revelation to me. I was always under the impression that Hindus and Muslims were just like the Baptists and Presbyterians or something. So I always have to deal with these issues "hypothetically". Now that I think about it, the freedom of religion sounds pretty good. Not freedom from God, mind you. I wonder what this athiest guy thinks of the money: "In God We Trust". I could just take this evil stuff off his hands for him. http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/devious.gif

And another thing: We say the Pledge every morning in school. No court will ever change that. We have a State mandated Moment of silence as well. Nobody raises a fuss. Every Monday morning, over the intercom system, we have what is called "the weekly devotion". A student reads a passage from the Bible and explains how to relate it to everyday life. Nobody seems to mind. Why is it different in California? http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/thinker.gif

------------------
So glad to be back.

[Tim]

It's a different culture--in Tennessee there is a more white rural culture whereas California is very multiethnic/cosmopolitian. So there will be differences in attitudes towards things due basically to exposure to other cultures.

------------------
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[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By bandontherun:
That was their God back then. They had two choices: stay in Britain and be a Protestant or come to America and you have to become a Christian. Otherwise you were put to death. I believe that Tim said our founding fathers were not Christian. Why weren't they put to death? That shows that you could practice any religion and it's ok.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Their God back then"? There is ample proof, both in investigating the oldest Christian doctrines and in the latest archeological finds that the Bible has not substantially changed in content or even wording since about 150 a.d., other than completely viable differences in translation due to the multiple meanings of the original Greek and Hebrew words and phrases.

To say that their God was different from our God is just plain wrong, since we all have basically the same Bible.

And George Washington WAS Christian - Episcopalian, to be precise, a near mirror-image of the Church of England.

While encamped on the banks of a river, Washington was approached by Delaware Indian chiefs who desired that their youth be trained in American schools. In Washington's response, he first told them that "Congress... will look on them as on their own children."* That is, we would train their children as if they were our own. He then commended the chiefs for their decision:

"You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention."*

According to George Washington, what students would learn in American schools "above all" was "the religion of Jesus Christ."*

*
George Washington's Speech to Delaware Indian Chiefs on May 12, 1779, in John C. Fitzpatrick, editor, The Writings of George Washington, Vol. XV (Washinton: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932), p. 55.

From this speech alone, you can see not only that George Washington believed firmly in Christianity, but that it would be taught to the native Indians' children along with the arts and ways of lives of the transplanted Europeans - and that further support in learning ALL of these things would come straight from Congress.

This was way before schooling was considered a government matter - in fact, schooling started out in our country (and in European countries, as well) primarily in the instruction of the faith of the family. The children were taught to read and write from the family Bible.

It is only as the people came to a non-believer status that God was forced out of the schools. In fact, the final cut took place within the past 20 years or so, because I quite clearly remember starting out the school day with both the pledge of allegiance and a generalized, non-sectarian prayer. By the time I got to high school, this daily prayer had been shifted to before school prayer groups.

But the school-wide assemblies were always begun with the pledge, the national anthem, and a prayer for each of us and our endeavor.

And I'm only 38.

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[This Message Has Been Edited By SleepyHead On June 30, 2002 01:32 PM]

[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By 4thGenFan:
The "needs" of your children include having two words in the Pledge Of Allegiance?


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. The needs of my children include retaining the overall Christian background, and profession of such, at the government level. I can assure you, that those who serve in our government that are Christian pray heavily before making decisions that affect vast numbers of us. While unhappily going along with separation of church and state (the idea of not submitting themselves to a government that only officially recognized one specific creed, not faith), they still attend their respective churches and as amply witnessed during the aftermath of Sept. 11th, prayers were not only said (and publicly, I might add), but encouraged, even to the point of the National Day of Prayer.

Yes, the needs of my children include knowing that their government endorses Christianity and it's precepts. Further, they need to know that when push comes to shove, our country hits it's knees if they've never done so before. And they also need to know that with all the shoving of God out of our daily doings, our Declaration of Independence does not, our National Anthem does not, the Battle Hymn of the Republic does not, and the Pledge of Allegiance does not.


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[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By 4thGenFan:

Not everyone is a God-fearer.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Sadly, this is so. But this situation came about because of the Christian precept of welcoming all, in spite of their differences. By doing their Christian duty, our ancestors have gradually turned our country from a nation free from a religion-run government to a government struggling to provided for the needs of everybody and trying to make everybody happy. Before the massive influx of non-Christians, the matter simply did not arise.

The government (in the earliest days) would neither build churches, nor endorse any particular creed. But it was then, and remained for decades a primarily Christian government.

Only when schooling was declared a mandated duty did the schools come under the official heading of state institutions. Before then, the only schools you saw were supported wholly by groups of religious people.


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[Amalthea]

No sadly... you see, that's not being tollerant nor open minded. I don't say that sadly you believe in God, that's your choice, and all my respect, but I'm not sad. Since that imply that I think that you're a fool, that you not into the TRUTH, which can't be one... is NOT one.

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"Because there wasn't any reason left to keep it all inside"
- Paul McCartney, 1982

[SleepyHead]

I've never claimed to be open-minded, and no true believer in any faith can ever claim to be so. To truly believe, with no shadow of a doubt, in any one thing as superior to all else, is to confess that those who do NOT believe the same thing is in a sad situation. That is the exact opposite of "open-mindedness". I harbor no shadows of doubt concerning the absolute reality of the one, Holy Triune God, and therefore am in no way, shape, form or fashion, open-minded on the subject.

Tolerance is a different kettle of fish. I neither practice nor condone prejudicial behaviour. You have the same rights to the pursuits of life, liberty and happiness as do I. I will neither exclude non-Christians nor non-Catholics from my circle of friends - but as a true believer in my faith and in the One True God, I am beholden to pray earnestly for them and for us all.

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[Amalthea]

Wow... you know you helped me alot with what you said. I know really understand Marx a way more. He was such a genius when he said that religion is people's opium. I won't stay here explaining why he said that, where, when and in which occasion, but those who know can agree with me.

Oh, and I have just discovered that all the catholic believers I am friend with aren't real believer, that's also another good thing, thanks!

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"Because there wasn't any reason left to keep it all inside"
- Paul McCartney, 1982

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SleepyHead:
To say that their God was different from our God is just plain wrong, since we all have basically the same Bible.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No we don't. Ever look at the King James Bible? Chapters taken out, etc.

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[SleepyHead]

I said "basically", botr, and I mean just that. Insofar as the New Testament is concerned, our Bibles are identical. Without the New Testament, it isn't a Bible, but Jewish Scriptures. Even in severely edited Bibles, the parts that remain are identical.

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[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Amalthea:
Wow... you know you helped me alot with what you said. I know really understand Marx a way more. He was such a genius when he said that religion is people's opium. I won't stay here explaining why he said that, where, when and in which occasion, but those who know can agree with me.

Oh, and I have just discovered that all the catholic believers I am friend with aren't real believer, that's also another good thing, thanks!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to disagree with you once again, Amalthea, but to a true believer, religion isn't remotely like an opiate. It makes us extremely uncomfortable with the reality of our existence in a world determined to exclude its Creator from its daily processes. Those who profess no religion whatsoever are more "comfortable" with this state than believers will ever be.



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[Tubagawd]

i gotta say this is just a stupid thing to argue about and im an atheist i dont care at all bout the content of some pointless jingoistic little "pledge" a friend of mine that is a staunch methodist feels exactly the same
yes the people from europe that left europe mostly left for religous reasons but no we did not seperate from england for religous reasons it takes only a cursery look to see that


http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/founders.htm

and no washington was not christian

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mors libertas amplexus

[**DONOTDELETE**]

God knows I love him, and how much, whether or not I say "under God" during the Pledge Of Allegiance.

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"I wish I was like you, easily amused..."

[beatlebangs1964]

SH said just what I wished I could have and very well. I think this is a needless battle as the man's daughter will be exposed to religion in other places. He can't shield her forever.

As a Catholic, I found the "under God" part comforting. Since this man is such a rabid atheist, I wonder how he feels about seeing "IN GOD WE TRUST" stamped on all U.S. currency. I wonder if he'd turn down the chance to receive any money bearing God's name if he thought he needed more to support his ridiculous case/claim.

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Then we will remember things we said today. Yeah.
-- Beatles, 1964

Read www.rooftopsessions.com (http://www.rooftopsessions.com) for high caliber Beatles fan fiction.

BB1964

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It's not like our feelings about God will change if these words are taken out.

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[**DONOTDELETE**]

Exactly.

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[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By mindgames:

Every Monday morning, over the intercom system, we have what is called "the weekly devotion". A student reads a passage from the Bible and explains how to relate it to everyday life. Nobody seems to mind. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Wow, if that were to happen even in UTAH, people wouldn't stand for it. You go to a public school, Mindy?


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"I wish I was like you, easily amused..."

[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Tim:
Like I said,the whole "Under God" thing came into the Pledge in the late 1950's due to politicing by the K of C.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As much as my pride would love to claim a Catholic victory such as the officially recognized version of the Pledge by no less august a body than our very own Congress, I cannot let this statement go unchallenged.

Yes, K of C lobbied for a long time to add Abraham Lincoln's tidy phrase from the Gettysburg Address, "under God", to the pledge, to no avail. In April 1953, the Korean War prompted K of C's reported 15 resolutions to put Abraham Lincoln's "under God" from the Gettysburg Address into the Pledge. None of the resolutions ever passed congress.

On February 7, 1954, President Eisenhower, along with the presidential press corps, attended a church service at the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church, and was treated to a sermon by the Reverend Docherty.

Reverend Docherty's sermon that morning had been prompted by the idea that the pledge of allegiance his school-aged son had told him of could be used by literally any nation in the world, not excluding Moscovite children in Russia. The very generalness of the pledge to the flag (which had been amended - but not nationally accepted - from "my flag" to "the flag of the United States") prompted the Reverend to preach that Sunday on changing the wording to reflect the intentions of the founding fathers as to the dedication of these United States to God.


The news story, naturally reported by the attending press corps, went country-wide, and support for the amendment was so overwhelming that only 3 days later, on 10 February 1954, Senator Homer Ferguson (MI-R), sponsored the bill that was signed into law on June 14th of that year (Flag Day), with Eisenhower's following statement:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>From this day forward, the millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Tim:
The origins of the Pledge as well as the flag fetish Americans have,was due to rreaction against immigration in the 1890's,as the Protstant majority fearded all of the Catholic immigrants coming in(as well as the Jewish ones),so used the Pledge to try to make them "good Americans"(i.e. the Catholics were going to give the USA to the Pope otherwise).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong again, Tim. The original conception of the pledge was that of a flag manufacturer named James Upham, co-owner of the "Reader's Digest" of its day, "Youths Companion". The 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus' discovery of America was upcoming, and a national celebration was in the works. To promote the use and honouring of the flag in the public schools, Upham hired Francis Bellamy, a radical Socialist ex-Baptist minister (he'd been fired for preaching a socialist Jesus), to pen something appropriate to use in honouring the flag, as well as the nation for which it had been THE national symbol since its birth.

The NEA endorsed the proposal by February, 1892, and by June 29th, President Benjamin Harrison and Congress had agreed that the flag ceremony should be the center of the national celebrations.

The original pledge was penned for this one-time only special occasion, and has been taken up by the people as it's pledge ever since. It wasn't even codified until 1942, when Congress finally made legal the daily practice of the nation's public school children, formally declaring the pledge to be The Pledge of Allegiance, and making it illegal for anyone but Congress to change it's wording henceforth.

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[Tim]

Sleepy,
This was pointed out on Myth America when they had a special o he history of the Flag.
The fact is,a lot of US Flag History is myth...the actual flag design was by Frances Hopkinson,the story of Betsy Ross was made up by her grandson in 1870. The only US military leader who used the Stars and Stripes during the Revolution was John Paul Jones--if land forces had a flag it would have been the flag of their militia(e.g. New England forces with the British Red Ensign with a Pine Tree replacing the St. George's cross,etc.)
The US Army did not use the flag until 1834,before then you wou;d have only seen it on naval bases or at sea(prior to the 20th century,the main if not sole way you saw flags as their main function was to provide national identification at sea,a flagless ship being considered a Pirate ship).
A couple of interesting books you should check out are "Legends,Lies,and Cgesrished myths in American History" by Richard Shenkman and "Lies My Teacher Told Me;Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong" by James W Lowen(sp.). They do show where a lot of AMerican Mythology came from ( a lot of the heavy use of the flag during the Revolution is due to painters who painted a lot of the vattle and patriotic painting for the Centennial in 1876,if you look at art such as Trumbell's who was there for the battle of Bunker Hill and other of the Revolutionary battle he painted,you see regimenta; colors.).


------------------
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[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>A reported 15 such resolutions got nowhere in Congress until Mr. Docherty preached a sermon attended by President Eisenhower and the national press corps Feb. 7, 1954.
Yesterday, Mr. Docherty said he did not write the sermon because of the resolutions — of which he was unaware — but because his son told him one Wednesday of a pledge he had recited in his second-grade class.
"I had never heard of it, so I asked, 'What is that?'" said Mr. Docherty, who had arrived in Washington from Scotland in 1950. He served the Presbyterian church until his 1976 retirement.
"So I wrote a sermon to amend the Pledge of Allegiance," he said, recalling that he had drawn inspiration from references to a deity in Scotland's ceremonial hymns. "And I preached that."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Washington Times (http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020628-26247314.htm)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>The “under God” movement didn’t take off, however, until the next year, when it was endorsed by the Rev. George M. Docherty, the pastor of the Presbyterian church in Washington that Eisenhower attended. In February 1954, Docherty gave a sermon — with the president in the pew before him-arguing that apart from “the United States of America,” the pledge “could be the pledge of any country.” He added, “I could hear little Moscovites [sic] repeat a similar pledge to their hammer-and-sickle flag with equal solemnity.” Perhaps forgetting that “liberty and justice for all” was not the norm in Moscow, Docherty urged the inclusion of “under God” in the pledge to denote what he felt was special about the United States.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.com/news/773696.asp?0si=-&cp1=1)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>"It struck me that it didn't mention God," George Docherty recounted yesterday from his home in Alexandria, Huntingdon County. "I was brought up in Scotland, and in Scotland, we sang, 'God save our gracious king.' It was everybody's belief that God was part of society."

George Docherty's puzzlement might have died there.

But this was the Rev. George Macpherson Docherty. And the Rev. George Macpherson Docherty was three years into his pastorate of Washington, D.C.'s New York Avenue Presbyterian Church -- two blocks from the White House, the church attended by President Lincoln and frequented by his successors.

On the first Sunday in February 1954, a few months after the exchange with his son, Docherty raised the issue from the pulpit -- with President Dwight D. Eisenhower in the front pew of the 1,400-seat sanctuary.

In his sermon, Docherty reasoned that reciting the Pledge didn't make nonbelievers profess a faith in God.

"He is pledging allegiance to a state, which through its founders, laws and culture, does as a matter of fact believe in the existence of God," he said. "Without this phrase 'under God,' The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag might have been recited with similar sincerity by Muscovite children at the beginning of their school day."

Afterward, according to Docherty, Eisenhower told him, "I think you've got something."

The long story cut short: newspapers picked up the message and the Congressional Record reprinted the sermon in full.

And 4 1/2 months later, in a nation fretting at the Cold War and what they saw as godless communism, the Pledge officially was leavened to 31 words, with the addition of the phrase "under God" after "one nation."

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (http://www.post-gazette.com/nation/20020628undergod0628p3.asp)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>A decade later, the pledge was altered once more. The change was spurred by a sermon delivered Feb. 7, 1954, by the Rev. George M. Docherty, pastor of the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church in Washington, D.C. With President Dwight Eisenhower sitting in the front pew, Docherty declared: "Apart from the mention of the phrase 'the United States of America,' it could be the pledge of any republic. I could hear little Muscovites repeat a similar pledge to their hammer-and-sickle flag in Moscow. Russia is also a republic that claims to have overthrown the tyranny of kingship. Russia also claims to be indivisible."

Three days later a bill was introduced in Congress to add the words "under God." Baer recalls that 'congressmen said Communists would feel very uncomfortable saying the pledge, because they were atheists." On Flag Day, June 14, Eisenhower signed the bill into law.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Star Tribune (MN) (http://www.startribune.com/stories/562/2316634.html)

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[mindgames]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Tim:
It's a different culture--in Tennessee there is a more white rural culture whereas California is very multiethnic/cosmopolitian. So there will be differences in attitudes towards things due basically to exposure to other cultures.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A valid point.

Forty: White County High School http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/thumbsup.gif


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So glad to be back.

[Rellevart]

This has been very interesting. Sleepy, I appreciate your thoughts on the difference between "open-minded" and "tolerant". I never really thought of it that way before and I think I agree with your description of the distinction between the two.

And again, I am fascinated by the regional differences in this country. I'm a couple years older than Sleepy and we NEVER had a prayer in our school. NEVER. And they took the Pledge out of our day-to-day routine back in about 1971 because of the reference to God. Yet now I find that kids in other parts of the country are STILL having prayers in public schools. Wow. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with either scenario, but it's just fascinating how different things are in different regions.

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I go back so far, I'm in front of me...

[mindgames]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By bandontherun:
It's not like our feelings about God will change if these words are taken out.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, mine won't. It's obvious to me that the government has a natural prejudice towards atheism. Not sure about other states, but here we have a line in our Constitution:

"No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state." - Tennessee State Constitution, Article IX, Section 2

Furthermore, the State Supreme Court has stated that as atheism is not a religion, it is not protected under the Freedom of Religion. An atheist parent (like this man) who teaches that to their children can have custody taken away for that.

I don't want "under God" removed from the Pledge of Allegiance. I've always said it that way. It would feel weird not to. But I must point out that this judge was only doing his job by interpreting the First Amendment as he saw it. As warped as his thinking may be, the ruling must stand. What gets me is that the next day he stopped the enforcement on it. If it's unconstitutional, why not enforce it? Aren't judges supposed to be above public opinion? That's what makes me think the guy has a screw loose somewhere.

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So glad to be back.

[SleepyHead]

I don't see how the ruling can be left as is, Mindgames. Congress specifically altered the wording to include "under God" back in 1942, with a further provision that no future alterations could be made outside of Congress.

Federal Court, or not, the judges do NOT sit in Congress, and should have upheld the general consensus that the pledge stands as is, and the atheist and his child have every right NOT to say the pledge.

However, in a history class, one must learn the pledge - it is a valid piece of our history (no less valid than the actions last September).

As much as one would like to, one cannot change historical facts to fit one's viewpoint or system of beliefs. If this were so, then no scientific theories about the Big Bang or Primordial Soup would have been allowed in our textbooks because of the huge hue and cry when Darwin first published his findings.

Even immigrants who are to be naturalized must pledge allegiance to this country, her flag, her constitution, and all she stands for before being naturalized. While they may, indeed, not be required to say "under God" if they are not God-fearers (and I haven't found anything that says one way or the other on the matter), the fact is that the Pledge of Allegiance, as it stands, is - by Law - our National Pledge of Allegiance.

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[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Rellevart:
This has been very interesting. Sleepy, I appreciate your thoughts on the difference between "open-minded" and "tolerant". I never really thought of it that way before and I think I agree with your description of the distinction between the two.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, you're welcome, Rel. I was trying to make it clear, and I'm glad I did for at least one person. I don't remember where I learned that, probably at the end of my mother's finger waaaay back (I left Mother Church because I was "open-minded" and the church was "intolerant" in my teenage view). I distinctly remember Mom letting me have it with both barrels, and the frustration she must have felt that day has certainly been impressed upon me recently.

As for regional differences, you have to remember we live in Louisiana - right smack in the middle of the Southern Bible Belt. Belief in God and country are rampant around here, and little else was tolerated for ages. Only in recent years have there been attacks upon the Supreme Being Himself. Before, it was religious intolerance rearing its ugly head. Baptists didn't hang with Catholics, Jews didn't hang with Christians, and Jehovah's Witnesses didn't hang with anyone, and Latter Day Saints hung out on every porch (for as long as it took for someone to escort them off).

It truly astonishes me that anyone with half a brain could dare call the United States of America a non-God-fearing country. Where else do you find national holidays such as Easter, Thanksgiving, and Christmas? Patriotism is also highly revered in our calendars - Memorial Day, Veteran's Day, Independence Day are all national holidays, as well. Rosh Hoshanna, Passover, and Hannukah aren't so honoured by our government - our country isn't patently Jewish. Our Pledge specifically mentions God, as does our National Anthem, and our National Motto.

Over and above all the objections, for over 220 years, our country has proclaimed itself to be a country of God-fearers with a definite Christian bent in it's laws, it's actions, it's very calendar. We have consistently pronounced ourselves such and asked all to recognize it without insisting that others be God-fearers themselves. I don't care who you are, or what your religious preferences are, the facts are that on Christmas Day, you cannot go to the Post Office, the White House, the Senate, or any court in the land.

If we aren't Christian, what are we?

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[SleepyHead]

I see a reply is listed by Fiendish Thingie, but I don't see it...

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[Tim]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SleepyHead:
I don't see how the ruling can be left as is, Mindgames. Congress specifically altered the wording to include "under God" back in 1942, with a further provision that no future alterations could be made outside of Congress.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Courts have the power to overturn any act of Congress--it too is in the Constitution.




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[Hari's Chick]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SleepyHead:
Yes, the needs of my children include knowing that their government endorses Christianity and it's precepts.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm...I haven't read every lengthy post, so forgive me if this has been addressed, but...it does say, "One nation, under God"...not necessarily "Under Christ", right?
Not that I have anything against Jesus, nor what He stood for (He is at the front of our church~ to the right of Krishna), but in term of the pledge, it doesn't say which God.
When asked about his work, Picasso once said that the reason he does not like to explain it is that it loses something in the verbage. He creates, and it is created once again within the eye of the beholder, with all that person's experience, beauty, wisdom, and life force behind their interpretation. It grows richer through the exchange. Thus, to me, I would like to see the words left in...for tradition and sentimentality, confessedly, but also as a prompt to spark consideration in those little minds, whatever their inclination or preceptions may be.

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Caryl Starling of the Muppets walks over and presents Arias with a stuffed replica of Kermit the frog. "Look, he's doing one of our meditation techniques," Arias says, sitting Kermit in the Lotus position and placing his hands over his eyes. "He's blissed-out."

[This Message Has Been Edited By Hari's Chick On July 01, 2002 05:58 PM]

[bearkat77]

sorry, SleepyHead's on my desktop

[This Message Has Been Edited By bearkat77 On July 01, 2002 06:57 PM]

[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Tim:
The Courts have the power to overturn any act of Congress--it too is in the Constitution.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Not exactly -

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>The reasoning of the case emphasizes that the Constitution is law, not merely a vehicle of precatory language. But it is a law which outweighs other federal law? Art. VI does not answer this. The court answers it with an argument based on power: Since the Constitution is law, the courts may (must) apply it. A rare and original exercise of power ("a very great exertion") by the people created the Constitution. Because of this it ought to be supreme. All the Court does is to take the case before it and decide which law to apply... Nothing in the text grants power to the Supreme Court to overrule the national legislature. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>"FEDERAL JUDICIAL POWER", Howard C. Anawalt, © 1999

Congress enacted the law... even the Supreme Court is held subject to the passed and enforced laws of the land.

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[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By mindgames:

Forty: White County High School http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/thumbsup.gif


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Sounds racist http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/tongue.gif


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"I wish I was like you, easily amused..."

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By mindgames:

"No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state." - Tennessee State Constitution, Article IX, Section 2

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You're kidding, right? http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/shakehead1.gif


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"I wish I was like you, easily amused..."

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SleepyHead:
If we aren't Christian, what are we?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well my dad's Muslim and my brother's Mormon...



------------------
"I wish I was like you, easily amused..."

[ImaginePeace78]

"I don't see how the ruling can be left as is, Mindgames. Congress specifically altered the wording to include "under God" back in 1942, with a further provision that no future alterations could be made outside of Congress."

My comment: I don't think it was 1942, I've heard 1954 was when they changed it. 1942 doesn't sound right to me, we had just gotten into WWII the year before, I don't think Congress would be doing something like this when the Japanese had just bombed Pearl Harbor in Dec. 1941 and Hitler gobbling up Europe (or trying to). Maybe that was a typo....
-Kristi

------------------
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[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Hari's Chick:
Hmm...I haven't read every lengthy post, so forgive me if this has been addressed, but...it does say, "One nation, under God"...not necessarily "Under Christ", right? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct, which is why I tend to stress that we are, by our own public documents, a God-fearing country. It is the fact that two of our three "religious" federal holidays are strictly dependent upon Christian beliefs, and only those 2 instances (other than quotes by aforementioned august persons such as President Washington) that bely any other culture than Christianity as inherent in our basic national identity.

Almost all of the documentation of our country cites only God, or the Almighty, or the Divine/Supreme Judge, clearly designating us a God-fearing country in both our intentions and our actuality. However, it is the establishment of the strictly Christian holiday of Christmas that specifies which of the God-fearing religions is the most prevalent, supported, and existent in our country:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>US Legal Code, Sec. 6103. - Holidays


(a)
The following are legal public holidays: New Year's Day, January 1.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr., the third Monday in January.
Washington's Birthday, the third Monday in February.
Memorial Day, the last Monday in May. Independence Day, July 4. Labor Day, the first Monday in September.
Columbus Day, the second Monday in October.
Veterans Day, November 11.
Thanksgiving Day, the fourth Thursday in November.
Christmas Day, December 25. [/list]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While not exactly a legal holiday, the prime Christian holiday of Easter is observed in fact by most federal agencies operating under minimal power on either Good Friday (the Friday before Easter) or Easter Monday (the Monday after Easter). Most government agencies offer this semi-holiday as a concession - the fact that is acted upon widely is further testimony to the basically Christian nature of our otherwise God-honouring country.

Federal offices are only closed on holidays which the federal government recognizes (i.e. New Year's Day, Martin Luther King's Birthday, George Washington's Birthday, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Columbus Day, Veteran's Day, Thanksgiving and Christmas). The term "federal holiday" is not applicable to individual states and the private sector since each state has jurisdiction over its holidays.

Which states/US dependencies do not observe Christmas as a state holiday?

only the Virgin Islands do not list Christmas as a holiday, observing Boxing Day in its stead.

Absolutely each and every other state of the union celebrates Christmas, the birth of Christ, and you will not find any government agency related to the United States operating at above absolute minimum on that day, federal, state or local.



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[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By ImaginePeace78:
My comment: I don't think it was 1942, I've heard 1954 was when they changed it. 1942 doesn't sound right to me, we had just gotten into WWII the year before, I don't think Congress would be doing something like this when the Japanese had just bombed Pearl Harbor in Dec. 1941 and Hitler gobbling up Europe (or trying to). Maybe that was a typo....
-Kristi

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1954 is when Congress enacted its right to alter the wording of the Pledge of Allegiance to include "under God". 1942 is when Congress declared the pledge to be THE pledge of allegiance for the United States and further reserved to itself all rights to alter wording in the future.



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[SleepyHead]

Louisiana Constitution of 1974

Preamble

"We, the people of Lousiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political, economic, and religious liberties we enjoy, and desiring to protect individual rights to life, liberty, and property; afford opportunity for the fullest development of the individual; assure equality of rights; promote the health, safety, education, and welfare of the people; maintain a representative and orderly government; ensure domestic tranquility; provide for the common defense; and secure the blessings of freedom and justice to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this constitution."

------------------
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[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SleepyHead:


"We, the people of Lousiana
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


They misspelled their own state name?? http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/bigeyes1.gif

But seriously, you're an amazing writer, Sleepyhead, and there's no point in arguing this subject to death anymore. You'll always think you're right and the other person's wrong, and the other person will always think they're right and you're wrong. Isn't that how the world works?

Personally, I think EVERYbody's wrong. http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif


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"I wish I was like you, easily amused..."

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Reminds me of a quote:
Some people are like cement--they're all mixed up and they're permenently set.

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The letter E has just pulled sponsorship. We are awaiting response from the letter Q.
-----
I am the walrus. No really, I am.

[Beatleicious]

I don't really want to get into the argument or anything, I just want to comment on the regional area/difference subject.

Like Rellevert said, in her school they never, ever, did anything religious, well it's the same for me here in California. I can't fathom a public school like mindy's actually performing a prayer in school! http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/afraid4.gif It really is very different over here. I can't even imagine what kind of an uproar that would cause.

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my site: http://kstarz.4mg.com/

[This Message Has Been Edited By Beatleicious On July 01, 2002 10:33 PM]

[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By 4thGenFan:

They misspelled their own state name?? http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/bigeyes1.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooops, my own personal typo, I'm afraid... I'll take those 30 lashes with limp noodles now...

http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/whip.gif

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[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By 4thGenFan:
...there's no point in arguing this subject to death anymore...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm truly sorry if anyone is offended by my offerings. I was severely offended by the ruling of the California courts (and I'm sure everyone knows this by now), and I'm quite certain most of you have been playing Devil's advocate with me.

I appreciate everyone's feedback, it has enabled me to find the words to accurately teach my children what their teachers may whitewash out because of erroneous beliefs.

------------------
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[Rellevart]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By 4thGenFan:

there's no point in arguing this subject to death anymore. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually like arguing about things like this (not to DEATH, mind you, but...), as long as everyone keeps it civil. I think you learn a lot about other people and the way things work in other places.

I for one wasn't offended by anybody's thoughts, whether or not I agreed with them. I'm very TOLERANT, if not always openminded! http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif


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I go back so far, I'm in front of me...

[mindgames]

I wonder what this guy thinks about Christmas and Easter Breaks. And the school Christmas party. And the Easter one. http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/thinker.gif

------------------
All I am saying,
Is give me some pants.

[Tim]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By mindgames:
I wonder what this guy thinks about Christmas and Easter Breaks. And the school Christmas party. And the Easter one. http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/thinker.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They have both become Secularised holidays http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif
More children will connect Santa and the Easter Bunny to these than Christ.

There is ,IMHO, nothing wrong with the wayt that these have becomes secular as opposed to religious festivals.

Besides which,Christmas was made up to replace the Roman Saturnalia/Yule holiday,and Easter to go with the Jewish
Passover.

In fact,a lot of Christian worship and imagery come from Pagan sources...Mary is a Christian-sanctified view of Goddess Worship,the Demi-Gods became Saints.and the cross itself has a sun symbolism thoussands of years older than the 4th century in which the Crross became the Christian emblem(prior to that the symbol was a fish with the Greek word for fish on it,as the letters also made the initials for Jesus Christ Son of goid and King of kings).

Much of the actual Church philosophy is taken from Plato. In fact the Satan as he is now was not such until invented that way by the Church in 479AD,and made immortal a century later.

The Church after Constantine became Pagan styled to get the Pagans to accept it after wrongly their worship of their Gods was proscribed by the Emperor. Actually,the Roman persecution of Christians was not due to being monotheistic,as the Romans were very tolerant of any type of beleif,being pantheistic. The problem witht he Christians(as well as with the Jews which led to masada) was an outright refusal to accept Roman CIVIL authority,not over their religious practices.



------------------
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[Tim]

Sleepy,
I do respect your opinons on this...the only part I get scared on is the use of the phrase True Beleiver,as I get mental images of people like the Branch Davidians,Jim jones' group,or the Heaven's gate people.


------------------
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[SleepyHead]

I understand your reservations about the use of "true believer", but I use it to diffrentiate between those who pay lip service to a certain credo, and those who actually do their utmost to follow it.

For instance, in this country, we have folks who persist in breaking the laws - some quite horrendously. How do we react to them? If and when we get our hands on 'em, we do our utmost to remove them from society, at least until such time as is felt sufficient to prove the law-breaker is ready and willing to obey all the laws, and not just those he agrees with. I can tell you for a fact that (well, down here in the radical South, that is), habitual offenders are wished upon another country. That is, habitual offenders are seen as non-Americans.

On the other hand, there is a vast majority of us who violate one mandate or the other with regularity on the reasoning that such laws as restrict or bind or even prohibit simply do not apply to them. I'm not speaking of great big, huge sins here - I'm talking about the guy who habitually puts the pens and paper clips his boss buys into his own pockets; the kid who thinks he's 10-foot tall and Superman and doesn't need his local ordinance-required helmet to bicycle across town; the minimum wage waitress who repeatedly underreports her tips on her annual tax return; the daddy of a large family who works for cash only in order to avoid child-support payments to his ex-wife for his other children; the gal in the hot red sports car who is convinced that driving the speed limit is damaging her engine because of the strain on her manual shift; the kid who sincerely believes that any money she finds laying around is hers to grab; etc.

Do you see what I mean? None of these people are what we normally call non-Americans, but they refuse to honour the American laws they live under. The same thing applies in religious circles. The Catholic who doesn't believe that the prohibition of the usage of contraceptives applies to her (especially since it's espoused by some Italian guy who's never supposed to have even had sex) may still hold to all the other Catholic dogmas and doctrines, but she is not a true Catholic. As a matter of fact, anyone who doesn't hold with all, and I mean all, of the tenets of the Roman Catholic church is no true Roman Catholic, by the laws of the church itself.

Where you allow one doubt in any thing to creep in and take root, you have aerated your ground for future doubts to grow.

So, I say, a true believer holds fast to all of his professed creed, and not just those parts that please him or at least don't make him squirm, just as a true law-abiding citizen of these United States holds dear all of her freedoms along with the laws that preserve those freedoms.

------------------
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[Lynner]

Well, based on what Sleepy just said, I'm not a true believer or a true Catholic. Does that make me a bad person? I hope not. Based on what I've read about various religions, I really don't think I could follow any of them faithfully.
I've been reading all of the posts in this topic, but haven't responded until today. I find everyone's viewpoints interesting. I can't say that I agree with them all, but I'm not the judge here. As for the original topic, I would prefer the phrase, "under God" remain, but would respect the person who chose not to say it. I would also hope that people would respect me because I DO say it.

------------------

[ImaginePeace78]

Thanks, Sleepy, I understand better now about the 1942 and 1954 Pledge.
-Kristi

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"In the best of times, our days are numbered anyway. And so it would be a crime against nature for any generation to take the world crisis so solemnly that we would put off doing those things for which we were intended for in the first place, the oppurtunity to do good work, to fall in love, to enjoy friends, to hit a ball and to bounce a baby." --Allistar Cooke


Kristi's Writing Desk (http://www.geocities.com/lennon4080forever/index.html)

[Hari's Chick]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SleepyHead:
The Catholic who doesn't believe that the prohibition of the usage of contraceptives applies to her (especially since it's espoused by some Italian guy who's never supposed to have even had sex) may still hold to all the other Catholic dogmas and doctrines, but she is not a true Catholic. As a matter of fact, anyone who doesn't hold with all, and I mean all, of the tenets of the Roman Catholic church is no true Roman Catholic, by the laws of the church itself.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think this may express your views, Sleepy, but not the views of the entire Catholic Church per se. I went to a Catholic high school and was told that once you are baptised a Catholic you are "always a Catholic". This was the tenent taught by the Sisters of Notre Dame,a very concervative order.
Also, if you follow the teachings of Matthew Fox, a Dominican, and his reform attempts (trying to "hip" the church, find a return to mysticism apart from dogma), you will see he went pretty far~ as a priest~ before they excommunicated him!! haha! Seriously, he was teaching in San Francisco for YEARS, once even being silenced for a year by the Pope...but he was still allowed to say mass, etc. So, in some respects, they are more tolerant than you portray....

I was also told by another priest, one who was quite scholarly, that as a Catholic one could EVEN be a practicing Catholic while worshipping Lord Krishna, so long as they worshipped him in a role of "God the Father"...apart from that, he saw no dissonance, and went as far as to say by accepting Krishna in the role of the Father, that the Gita at that point becomes Catholic doctrine as well!
I think there are many interpretations, you know. There are Catholics who are dogma based, and those who are based in mysticism, as well. I think the more the Chruch grows toward the mystical direction, the more vitality and acceptance it will find in society.

------------------
Caryl Starling of the Muppets walks over and presents Arias with a stuffed replica of Kermit the frog. "Look, he's doing one of our meditation techniques," Arias says, sitting Kermit in the Lotus position and placing his hands over his eyes. "He's blissed-out."

[Hari's Chick]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Tim:
In fact,a lot of Christian worship and imagery come from Pagan sources...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Interesting post, Tim.
It's funny you should mention this cuz when my husband read the posts before, I asked him his opinion...he said he thought we should all get naked, dance in a circle of oaks under a full moon, and wait for an answer to be revealed! hehehe http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/laugh5.gif


------------------
Caryl Starling of the Muppets walks over and presents Arias with a stuffed replica of Kermit the frog. "Look, he's doing one of our meditation techniques," Arias says, sitting Kermit in the Lotus position and placing his hands over his eyes. "He's blissed-out."

[IamtheWalrus]

I believe I may have a reasonably solution to this whole mess. Switch to homeschool. http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif You can say the Pledge however you want there. I think that if they take out 'under God', plenty of people will get angry. I don't think that the Church and State should be mixed, but leaving out the foundation of our country from the Pledge of Allegiance is outrageous. If a person feels uncomfortable saying 'under God', he shouldn't have to. What happened to freedom of speech and choice? I do not want to be told how to say things, especially things I don't think are correct. Leave people at least their own opinions! Give them the choice to say 'under God' if they want to, or to leave it out. If you are pledging your allegiance to your country, don't pledge something that goes against your religious beliefs. Say it or don't say it. It's as simple as that. Settle the matter, and leave the Peladge of Allegiance alone.

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I think, therefore I...um...

[SleepyHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Hari's Chick:
I think this may express your views, Sleepy, but not the views of the entire Catholic Church per se. I went to a Catholic high school and was told that once you are baptised a Catholic you are "always a Catholic".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, sweetie, unfortunately you've been taught wrongly, as have generations of American Catholics.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>"We believe in the holy Church, that is, the Catholic Church; for heretics and schismatics call their own congregations churches. But heretics violate the faith itself by a false opinion about God; schismatics, however, withdraw from fraternal love by hostile separations, although they believe the same things we do. Consequently, neither heretics nor schismatics belong to the Catholic Church; not heretics, because the Church loves God, and not schismatics, because the Church loves neighbor" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>(Faith and Creed 10:21 [A.D. 393]).

Neither those who teach nor those who believe anything not strictly taught by the teaching authority of the Catholic Church, nor those who have separated themselves from Mother Church by wilfull disobedience to her teachings are Catholic.

There are provisions made for the correction of non-doctrinal teachings to the common layperson, as well as to clerics. If after receiving instructions as to the errors of their private beliefs or teachings, the layperson or cleric who persists is held to be heretical or schismatic, depending upon the level of separation effected by that person.

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[SleepyHead]

Just before anyone gets frisky, I am willing to exchange emails with anyone wishing further information on the Catholic Church. Quite frankly, the Code of Canon Law is quite lengthy, as is the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

I am merely stating here, as a method of comparison, using those institutions I am most familiar with, that just as Catholics can and are considered no longer to be Catholic when they hold or teach anything contrary to the official precepts of the teaching authority embodied by the Pope and the Synod of Bishops, so may Americans be deprived of their otherwise constitutionally guaranteed freedoms if said American wilfully violates the laws of this country.

I will not discuss religion in any but the most discursive way in this forum. I reserve my energies in that direction to private emails, and forums specifically set up to discuss and debate such issues.

------------------
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[Hari's Chick]

Sleepy~ That's cool...we just come from different places, that's all. I know both conservative & liberal Catholics, and somewhere I even have that really thick thick book on Catholicism....you know, the "Official Book". It is interesting to read everyone's points of view, though! Thanks for taking time to share yours with me, too. http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

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Caryl Starling of the Muppets walks over and presents Arias with a stuffed replica of Kermit the frog. "Look, he's doing one of our meditation techniques," Arias says, sitting Kermit in the Lotus position and placing his hands over his eyes. "He's blissed-out."

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By Rellevart:
I actually like arguing about things like this (not to DEATH, mind you, but...), as long as everyone keeps it civil. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same here. The only problem is that nothing at beatlelinks ever stays civil.



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"I wish I was like you, easily amused..."

[Rellevart]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By 4thGenFan:
Same here. The only problem is that nothing at beatlelinks ever stays civil.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a lot more civil here than I lot of sites I read, that's for sure! http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

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I go back so far, I'm in front of me...

[SF4-EVER]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By 4thGenFan:
Same here. The only problem is that nothing at beatlelinks ever stays civil.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I civilly disagree. http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/wink.gif Things do get a bit heated from time to time, but it doesn't stay that way for long.

It's the mark of a mature, civilized person to be able to disagree without being disagreeable. The key to that, I think, is to make your statements calmly and try to phrase them in a way that doesn't push anyone's hot buttons. You also have to try to look at things from the other person's point of view.

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http://www.beatlelinks.net/ubb/smilies/cyberguy.gif

Contributing Editor for Rooftop Sessions (http://www.rooftopsessions.com)
Lennon's Line (http://www.sandraulbrich.com/lennon.htm)--A science fiction series about John's descendants--Updated 6/29/02

[Lynner]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SF4-EVER:

You also have to try to look at things from the other person's point of view.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>A very good point, but unfortunately oftentimes easier said than done.
I do think that the discussions on Beatlelinks are for the most part civil. Sometimes they also seem to be more of a debate than a discussion, but that's okay.



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[SleepyHead]

LOL, I truly love a good discussion/debate. And yes, it is vital to keep the tongue/fingers civil, or it turns into a war. It's also not wise to bring in unwarranted feelings of hostility, whatever their origin.

I must admit to having just enough naiveté in my make-up that I never envisioned debating on the subject of patriotism and American symbols.

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In Memory Of Robby (http://inmemoryofrobby.50megs.com)
Our Lady's Psalter (http://ourladyspsalter.50megs.com)
Bearkat77's Beatlemaniac Page (http://bearkat77.www9.50megs.com)
Bearkat77's Tribute to John Lennon (http://bearkatjl.50megs.com)
Bearkat77's Tribute to Ringo Starr (http://bearkatrs.50megs.com)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Tahoma, Arial, Sans-Serif">Quote:</font><HR>Originally Posted By SF4-EVER:

The key to that, I think, is to make your statements calmly and try to phrase them in a way that doesn't push anyone's hot buttons.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


It's hard to stay calm when the person you're "debating" with is so stupid. (in every day life, I mean)


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"I wish I was like you, easily amused..."

[mindgames]

Oh please Forty.

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All I am saying,
Is give me some pants.

[Tim]

As the US Supreme Court has now taken the matter up, time for this to go back to activity.

Scalia will not be involved in proceedings, due to remarks at a K of C rally which indicated he would not be unbiased.

A ruling is expoected in the spring.

[Tim]

I do beleive the lower court ruling will stand by a 4-4 vote.

[Hari's Chick]

I rule that this topic become self evident at Here There & Everywhere! graemlins/laugh5.gif

[FredFlash]

What does "In God We Trust" mean?